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gregc
Acolyte

Canada
22 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  17:17:29  Show Profile Send gregc a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Or are we forever more stuck with Sword Coast and the rest of the world ignored?

Will WOTC ever redo Matzica, Karatur and any other problematic regions based on real world history?

Thats the key question in my mind. Will they, or will they just ignore it for the next 20 years?

Lets assume they ignore it. Is it possible for Candlekeep historians to work with Ed to redo those regions into something that we can all be proud of? Get some content that everyone who cares about the realms can get behind, promote, and be the true replacement?

Or is it just that nobody cares anymore about FR, and similar to Critical Role, its better everyone builds their own world and there is no longer a common shared world experience.

gregc
Acolyte

Canada
22 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  17:44:26  Show Profile Send gregc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is the thing. Someone did redo Matztica in a sensitive way here:

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/171534/MZC1-The-Maztica-Campaign-Guide

But even with that, first comment is "don't you find it low key offensive how you write that this continent returned, practically, for those who want to plunder it, as if the rehashed colonial trope wasn't bad enough in its inception. Did anyone of mexica or indigenous descent work on this with you or was it all your research? imo there are alot of good ideas in here, but they are overshadowed by the colonial lens."

basically you will never succeed unless the region is razed and rebuilt. And for that we need a F.R. task force to work with Ed Greenwood under permission from WOTC.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:00:22  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. Read up on the Adventure League adventures for:
    - Melvaunt
    - Phlan
    - Mulmaster

2. Published Adventures: Lost Tales of Myth Drannor

3. Published Supplement: Forgotten Realms - Rasheman; Unapproachable East Campaign Guide

4. Published Supplement: Ed Greenwood's The Border Kingdoms

5. Lastly, petition or start up a collaboration with Realms enthusiasts to pick a location and see if you can get something done with a part of the setting you want to see more of: like Cormyr or the Shining South or Impiltur.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 14 Jan 2022 18:07:00
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gregc
Acolyte

Canada
22 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:07:13  Show Profile Send gregc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

5. Lastly, petition or start up a collaboration with Realms enthusiasts to pick a location and see if you can get something done with a part of the setting you want to see more of: like Cormyr or the Shining South or Impiltur.



The supplements that Ed participated in are great. But what I really want is Eds map that does not include Mazica that was copy pasted from real world history.

Basically I'd like to see his section of that world published (he calls it something else).
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Diffan
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4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:13:07  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregc

quote:

5. Lastly, petition or start up a collaboration with Realms enthusiasts to pick a location and see if you can get something done with a part of the setting you want to see more of: like Cormyr or the Shining South or Impiltur.



The supplements that Ed participated in are great. But what I really want is Eds map that does not include Mazica that was copy pasted from real world history.

Basically I'd like to see his section of that world published (he calls it something else).




Well, they tried that and....it unfortunately didn't work out too well. It was called Laerakond and I thought was FAR better than Realms-Mexico in almost every way. I too did not enjoy the imperialist aspect of Western Faerūn and the Church of Helm in those novels. It's largely why I didn't bring Maztica back to my homebrewed Realms setting and left it Laerakond. It's also why I didn't much enjoy Realms-Egypt too, as there's a LOT of Slave trading and acceptance of slavery in that area. It just....doesn't sit well with me honestly. So I kept Akanūl and Tymanther vs. Unther/Mulhorand.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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gregc
Acolyte

Canada
22 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:20:16  Show Profile Send gregc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Well, they tried that and....it unfortunately didn't work out too well. It was called Laerakond and I thought was FAR better than Realms-Mexico in almost every way. I too did not enjoy the imperialist aspect of Western Faerūn and the Church of Helm in those novels. It's largely why I didn't bring Maztica back to my homebrewed Realms setting and left it Laerakond. It's also why I didn't much enjoy Realms-Egypt too, as there's a LOT of Slave trading and acceptance of slavery in that area. It just....doesn't sit well with me honestly. So I kept Akanūl and Tymanther vs. Unther/Mulhorand.



So can we get a kickstarter and persuade Ed to work with a bunch of people to do a Laerakond campaign guide?

I could then replace that region in https://dndcombat.com/toril with it and I would feel happy again.

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Diffan
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USA
4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:22:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read though the discussion on the DM-Guild and from what have read, it at least appears that the original writer is very open to interpretation and change based on the discussion he had with the other poster. He seems to at least want to move beyond the bad tropes of the previous editions mistakes in insensitivity to the cultures that were drawn from in Maztica's creation.

So maybe it's not a bad document to get, and any further changes are allowed to be downloaded for free if the original one is purchased.

As for the other regions, like Kara-Tur, I don't really know. The best I can think of is to find someone that does a non-offensive Asian themed supplement and change the Map/locations to match that of the Forgotten Realms. I never owned the original Oriental Adventures or Kara-Tur supplements, so I'm not sure what was problematic or not (all I have is the few articles from Dragon during 4th Editions run) and as such, can't give much insight there.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

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4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  18:40:27  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregc

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Well, they tried that and....it unfortunately didn't work out too well. It was called Laerakond and I thought was FAR better than Realms-Mexico in almost every way. I too did not enjoy the imperialist aspect of Western Faerūn and the Church of Helm in those novels. It's largely why I didn't bring Maztica back to my homebrewed Realms setting and left it Laerakond. It's also why I didn't much enjoy Realms-Egypt too, as there's a LOT of Slave trading and acceptance of slavery in that area. It just....doesn't sit well with me honestly. So I kept Akanūl and Tymanther vs. Unther/Mulhorand.



So can we get a kickstarter and persuade Ed to work with a bunch of people to do a Laerakond campaign guide?

I could then replace that region in https://dndcombat.com/toril with it and I would feel happy again.





I mean, I'd definitely be on board to help fund a Kickstarter - especially since all of Laerakond was created by Ed for 4E. Unfortunately since Abeir split from Toril again, places like Laerakond left and brought back Maztica in it's place. So from an Official stand-point it would never fly. In the meantime, I'd highly suggest getting the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Setting that has this location and the others that were swapped out for less problematic ones (in regards of what you're talking about). They have a decent amount of information about them in the book plus there's a few Dungeon articles that detail more.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2204 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  19:23:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I read though the discussion on the DM-Guild and from what have read, it at least appears that the original writer is very open to interpretation and change based on the discussion he had with the other poster. He seems to at least want to move beyond the bad tropes of the previous editions mistakes in insensitivity to the cultures that were drawn from in Maztica's creation.



I would be willing to help, but I'm not mexica. My experience and knowledge about pre-Columbian stuff is more about the cultures of my own country (so, count me in when he is talking about muiscan expies or something).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

130 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  19:37:47  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Wizards is busy chasing a hipper, younger demographic, which is more sympathetic to the Critical Role setting (Exandria) than Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean they'll drop Forgotten Realms completely, but I think we're going to see less and less of it going forth.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  19:55:50  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think Wizards is busy chasing a hipper, younger demographic, which is more sympathetic to the Critical Role setting (Exandria) than Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean they'll drop Forgotten Realms completely, but I think we're going to see less and less of it going forth.



Two of the best 5e supplements aren't even made by WotC.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  20:09:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even though it's not what I'd prefer to see, I've become increasingly convinced that the best thing to do would be scrap everything and roll back to the Old Gray Box.

I'll not even begin to claim this would make everyone happy, though, and it would create other issues -- but it would be the simplest approach. Just start over, keep the good, and redo or toss out the bad.

It'll never happen, though; WotC wouldn't want the negativity from that, and they seem quite reluctant to do anything that would alienate some of their more recently acquired fanbase.

The best we can hope for, I think, is dedicated fans doing stuff via the DM's Guild.

Kickstarter is not an option, I fear; WotC will come down on anyone making money off of their IP, if it's not something they sanction themselves. If it's not through the DM's Guild or some other licensed arrangement, it doesn't matter if a profit is made or not, WotC will call out the lawyers. This is not bashing WotC; they've done it before and it's their legal right to do so -- they're pretty much obligated to do so, in fact, to protect their IP.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35682 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  20:10:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think Wizards is busy chasing a hipper, younger demographic, which is more sympathetic to the Critical Role setting (Exandria) than Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean they'll drop Forgotten Realms completely, but I think we're going to see less and less of it going forth.



Two of the best 5e supplements aren't even made by WotC.



Which ones are those?

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HighOne
Learned Scribe

130 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  22:28:56  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Even though it's not what I'd prefer to see, I've become increasingly convinced that the best thing to do would be scrap everything and roll back to the Old Gray Box.
I've already decided that if I ever go back to DMing FR, this is what I'll do; 1300s DR or bust.

quote:
It'll never happen, though; WotC wouldn't want the negativity from that, and they seem quite reluctant to do anything that would alienate some of their more recently acquired fanbase.
Actually, I can see Wizards doing it. But not until 6E comes out and gives them an excuse to wipe the slate. (There's no way they'd do it during 5E, because it would invalidate so many 5E products.) I think the biggest hurdle to a reset would be all the Realms creators who have added something to the world over the past three decades and wouldn't like seeing their entire body of Realms work retconned out of existence.

Edited by - HighOne on 14 Jan 2022 23:13:04
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sleyvas
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USA
10976 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  22:36:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll say .... I think pretty much ditto to what Wooly said..... Sure, it would be great to drop to the gray box and just start over. Sure it would be great if Ed could just drop in thousands of pages of well thought out and well organized documentation. But get real here. It's not going to happen.

So, like he indicated, its up to people to find a happy medium. I'm not one to throw everything out if it can be tweaked. So, in my view, Kara-tur, Maztica, Anchorome, Zakhara... all salvagable, some even easier than others.

At the same time, some might call me horrible names because I like the idea of taking the various regions of Toril and intermixing them. Basically to me that is the point of having them in the same world. So, Maztica and Anchorome may have some Faerunian influence now. Conversely, Faerun has influence from Maztica now (tabaxi cat folk... tlincallis, etc...). The point would be to not overload the campaign with stuff from another part of the world, but give it a "taste" here and there. So, for me, like in Zakhara, I would like to include some "mulan gods" that basically broke away from their former pantheons and roamed down there for instance (specifically Ereshkigal, but possibly others). in Kara-tur, it might be interesting if we find out that "Tymanchebar" got dropped in several places on Toril, and a hundred years later they're finding out that they have fellow dragonborn on some island or somesuch there.... and that these dragonborn are highly respected by the people of Kara-tur, but do not understand why these vayemniri fear the Lung Dragons. In regards Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango, I highly respect what Seethyr's done, which a lot of it was discussed here and shaped here as well, and I just try to expand around the edges of what he's developed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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gregc
Acolyte

Canada
22 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  22:42:50  Show Profile Send gregc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
so I found out that in the wiki entry https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Laerakond

it says

"Laerakond then was sent to the Trackless Sea in the world of Toril. Meanwhile, in Toril, magical energy subsumed the continent of Maztica and transported those lands to Abeir."

So did HandsomeRob ever update the map to reflect that?

And if not who do you think one could hire to create a new version of his map

https://dndcombat.com/toril

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4256 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  23:01:01  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

I think Wizards is busy chasing a hipper, younger demographic, which is more sympathetic to the Critical Role setting (Exandria) than Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean they'll drop Forgotten Realms completely, but I think we're going to see less and less of it going forth.



Two of the best 5e supplements aren't even made by WotC.



Which ones are those?



I should have reiterated that what I meant was in terms of Realmslore, the Rasheman and Border Kingdoms guides are fantastic. They're 80% lore and info with 20% mechanics.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10976 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2022 :  23:58:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregc

so I found out that in the wiki entry https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Laerakond

it says

"Laerakond then was sent to the Trackless Sea in the world of Toril. Meanwhile, in Toril, magical energy subsumed the continent of Maztica and transported those lands to Abeir."

So did HandsomeRob ever update the map to reflect that?

And if not who do you think one could hire to create a new version of his map

https://dndcombat.com/toril





Good luck with that as well. Noone updates those maps for money. People only do it for love of the game.

Seems you are interested in someone doing the work. If you're that interested in it, throw your hat in the ring and give it a try.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Azar
Senior Scribe

543 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  00:50:45  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those regions are no more "problematic" than any other land that's a mishmash of European influences/history; the only reason they stand out is because "Western Europe equivalent" has been the fantasy standard for so long. Abandon Maztica/Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim and you push the Realms back to the sort of homogeneity that people are attempting to get away from.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  05:10:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Those regions are no more "problematic" than any other land that's a mishmash of European influences/history; the only reason they stand out is because "Western Europe equivalent" has been the fantasy standard for so long. Abandon Maztica/Kara-Tur/Al-Qadim and you push the Realms back to the sort of homogeneity that people are attempting to get away from.



I don't think he's saying to abandon them as much as to revamp them. Maztica and Kara-Tur are pretty much direct lifts from real-world history.

Al-Qadim, at least, had the benefit of being inspired by something inspired by real-world history, rather than being "let's file the serial numbers off and toss in a few fantasy elements." They basically started with Hollywood Arabia and 1001 Nights and went from there -- real-world history was not even a factor.

I don't know that I've ever heard any complaints about Al-Qadim, but Maztica was such a blatant lift from real-world history that you can see it just from the novel descriptions. And while I personally liked Kara-Tur, looking at it now, it's hard to see it as anything other than real-world Asia with some fantasy elements painted on top.

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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  06:34:05  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Maztica, Zakhara, Kara tur, Mulhorand etc could definitely be revamped into something that preserves their context within the Realms while being more creative and respectful with the source material. WoTC *could* do it.

But I don't think they will. I think they'll just keep on ignoring them because revamping them would be to court controversy. Drow were an easy target for more aggressive retconning because they don't really resemble any RL culture or ethnic group to any large degree, but the same can't be said about some of those aforementioned places and I think wotc would rather just dodge the scrutiny revisiting them would invite, even if that would be the morally responsible thing to do given their stated stance in regards to stuff like this.

If somehow they did get revisited? IDK, but somehow I don't have so much hope. There seems to be a lot of crossover between the mtg and d&d teams these days, and while d&d has mostly avoided fantasy counterparts to rl cultures, mtg loves to use them as the basis for their planes, and honestly, they often aren't that much better than the oft-criticized FR ones. Look at Ixilan or Amonkhet for instance. Very obviously wearing their inspiration on their sleeves. I'm not sure to what degree WoTC *can* do nuanced and imaginative takes on cultures like those. Not at least without considerable investment of time, money and manpower.

Edited by - TKU on 15 Jan 2022 06:34:48
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5846 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  11:14:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was trying to save all of toril in my own way. But doing it alone is very unfulfilling, and now I appear to have lost enthusiasm for it or any project.

WoTC will abandon Toril as we knew it. They will never go back to anything that we knew or loved because it's not new or edgy enough. Doesnt mean you cant save Toril for yourself. George and Eric and maybe Steven are doing their bit to keep the old ways alive.

Who wants to buy new crud anyway. New computer games are pretty much hold down the x key to win. Most new things are shallow copies of something greater. Might as well stick to the old ways and leave the new stuff to young people that dont know any better.

Profit is not about delivering quality anymore, it is about conning people into believing they are receiving quality.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  11:17:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apologies if that was overly morose. Life just isnt as much fun anymore

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  13:43:00  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregc

Here is the thing. Someone did redo Matztica in a sensitive way here:

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/171534/MZC1-The-Maztica-Campaign-Guide

But even with that, first comment is "don't you find it low key offensive how you write that this continent returned, practically, for those who want to plunder it, as if the rehashed colonial trope wasn't bad enough in its inception. Did anyone of mexica or indigenous descent work on this with you or was it all your research? imo there are alot of good ideas in here, but they are overshadowed by the colonial lens."

basically you will never succeed unless the region is razed and rebuilt. And for that we need a F.R. task force to work with Ed Greenwood under permission from WOTC.


-Yo that is so F'ed up, I'm actually annoyed. Seethyr (I am guessing based on the content and email address) took the time and effort to do all that AND released it for free, and someone has the audacity to give him grief over something that doesn't have anything to do with him (how Maztica was originally presented/created).

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Jan 2022 13:45:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  16:22:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

I think Maztica, Zakhara, Kara tur, Mulhorand etc could definitely be revamped into something that preserves their context within the Realms while being more creative and respectful with the source material. WoTC *could* do it.

But I don't think they will. I think they'll just keep on ignoring them because revamping them would be to court controversy. Drow were an easy target for more aggressive retconning because they don't really resemble any RL culture or ethnic group to any large degree, but the same can't be said about some of those aforementioned places and I think wotc would rather just dodge the scrutiny revisiting them would invite, even if that would be the morally responsible thing to do given their stated stance in regards to stuff like this.



Drow were retconned not because it was easy, but because WotC has, for years, insisted on throwing drow into our faces in every possible way. Because of Lord Ginsu, WotC has kept multiple spotlights on drow, and that means eyes have stayed on them. WotC had two choices: make them less problematic or shift focus elsewhere. And since they won't take any chances on anything that isn't already proven successful, they couldn't shift focus elsewhere.

If, for some reason, one of these other areas suddenly became popular, WotC would fall all over themselves trying to fix it. They'd bring in consultants, make a huge production about how they were fixing it, pat themselves on the back, and fix some of the issues while still making a few more mistakes because they ignored or sidelined some of the consultants and/or just had to include this KEWL thing someone thought up that no one thought to run past a larger group. The end result would be better, but not perfect. It would also likely be a huge retcon, because it's easier for them to just ignore stuff rather than try to explain changes.

Of course, this will never happen, because those areas have been ignored since long before the current team at WotC decided that continuity didn't exist and neither does anything beyond the Sword Coast.


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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2204 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2022 :  16:34:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

I think Maztica, Zakhara, Kara tur, Mulhorand etc could definitely be revamped into something that preserves their context within the Realms while being more creative and respectful with the source material. WoTC *could* do it.



Of the mentioned, the easiest one to revamp is definitely Mulhorand and the Old Empires area. While they are RL copies, they are more based on their Hollywood-versions than actual RL versions, and have been integrated into Realmslore better than the others.

Still, it would requiere an investment of effort and money WotC doesn't seem to be interested to invert in this kind of stuff.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Jan 2022 16:37:52
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