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Belnick
Acolyte

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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  14:35:54  Show Profile Send Belnick a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This will have spoliers for The Cleric Quintet.




Is it just me that dislike Danica the monk?

This has nothing to do with Danica being a woman as I loved Buffy and I loved Xena, but how Danica acts......maybe it is because it is a man, ra salvatore that writes her? anyway, here below is my rant :P

I avoided the The Cleric Quintet before as I had no interest in Cadderly, but having nothing else to listen to I started to "read/listen" to Cadderly "origin story"

** My first annoyance started early on, Danica is doing her meditation/martial arts and the elf prince look at her, interested. Danica see him watching her, the elf prince, like a young brad pitt/tom cruice, but Danica is already with Cadderly so nothing comes of that, but there is where I already thought I knew how most of the books would go.

** Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" agrees with the prince to kill the wounded enemy in the forest and shows Cadderly she dislikes Cadderly decision to try and keep the enemy alive for information etc...and there is where it start, where she start to take sides with the elf prince, the hot sexy young brat pitt/tom cruice......

** After Cadderly knocked out the female Wizard that came to burn down the walking trees, Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" ORDER Cadderly to execute a defenseless unconscious woman.....Danica order Cadderly to murder a female prisoner of war, a now helpless woman.....I wonder if Drizzt would approve of Danica order?
This was not a goblin or an orc, this was a human woman, lying knocked out and defenseless and Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" order a goodly priest to execute this woman.....
Cadderly does not murder the wizard ofc....

** Danica continue to spend 1 on 1 with the prince and later on when elf is king while they are clearing the forest, Cadderly tell them that he did not murder the wizard and both the elf king and Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" despise Cadderly for it.....She continue her combat in the forest next to the elf king until she decide to kick Cadderly out of the forest.

She tells Cadderly that she feel her heart getting harder and she does not want it to happen to Cadderly, so she tell him to GTFO(she knew she became more and more like a sociopath and instead of leaving to lift her heart from that, she decided to stay and and become more of that....that is some logic for you) and go back to the priest library.
Cadderly kiss Danica, but "Loyal and trusting Danica" push him away with her arms and does not return the following 5 days....
Danica broke up with Cadderly so I don't understand why it state in the next book that it was Cadderly choice? Danica pretty much threw him out so she could share the bed with the elf king without it getting awkward by having Cadderly there risking walking in on them.

** Then we get to Danica leaving, the elf king and Danica watch the "elf maiden", Pikel and Ivan play around. Elf king tried to initiate sex as he have done many times before during the 30 days since she kicked out Cadderly, but Danica decides it is time to leave, she have realized that she love Cadderly and the elf king was just about lust so she deny him and the elf king understand it is because Cadderly.
Danica did not cheat on Cadderly as she broke it off first, so kudos to her on that, but "Loyal and trusting Danica" still annoys me when I read it.

** Cadderly mention that he expected a marriage invitation of the elf king and Danica and Danica replies "I did not deserve that".....like wtf? Yes you did deserve that....When you break up with your boyfriend so you can stay 1 on 1 with someone you "love" and someone cadderly also know Danica love, yea you deserve that and perhaps more. lol
They make up and once again Danica disagree with Cadderly when he show her his new found magic.....

** Now they are at the farm to catch Ghost and Cadderly orders everyone to try and catch the assassins alive so they can ask them questions.
They all agree to do thier best and they go in, Danica catch one of the human guards from behind and "Loyal and trusting Danica" just murder him without a single thought, ignoring Cadderly again because of how she feel(and like killing humans)....She could easily knocked him out or choked him out, but she went right to killing when she saw the back of the human target...

** Now they are in the cave and Cadderly have said that he is taking the mirror and the gloves to a red dragon to have them destroyed, once again "Loyal and trusting Danica" disagree with the man she loves. It goes so far that she conspire with the rest of the group to betray Cadderly and not only that, Danica "Loyal and trusting Danica" was going to knock Cadderly out, risking brain damage because she did not agree with him.
When you knock someone out by punching them it caused by the brain bouncing and hitting the skull and cause some brain damage, often not severe, but each individual is different or you cut the blood flow to the brain for a short time, which can also cause brain damage and a person like Cadderly that live with his mind, what Danica wanted to do is actually perverse and not just wrong.
Also Cadderly, if knocked out could have hit his head in the cave and cracked his skull....
You don't knock someone out that you claim to love, that is domestic abuse, but "Loyal and trusting Danica" tried it anyway, but luckily she failed....

** When they ride the dragon Cadderly say he does not know when the spell is over and that they need to hurry to the castle and send the dragon back, but once again, "Loyal and trusting Danica" decide it is better to use the dragon to kill orcs and giants and convinces Ivan and Pikel to join her against Cadderly..."Loyal and trusting Danica"....
aaaand ofc chaos occurs because of that decision Danica forced Cadderly into....

** I just dont like Danica and the "Loyal and trusting Danica" title annoys me even more

** In the castle Cadderly kill some evil people that was going to kill them and Danica accuse him once again, this time she think he did something wrong by killing them, the same people Danica would have no problem going around killing one by one......
Cadderly tell Danica to take the guard that survived who was not evil aligned and hold him....once again Danica just want to kill him and be on her way....in this case, one of the very few, Cadderly won....

I wonder why the Denier song did not hurt Danica though, is she neutral? she cant be good considering how much she love killing humans?

*******
please tell me Im not alone feeling this way about Danica? I was fine with her in the other books with drizzt and entreri, but not in these 5 books

Edited by - Belnick on 11 Nov 2020 14:37:46

Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  16:59:49  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Danica Maupoissant" was a very popular character for a time. Danica and Cadderly were discussed much like Riker and Troi, and like them or not (as a couple or as individuals), others always seemed eager to discuss them at endless length, their names and their faces were all over the lore. They spawned countless copycat characters/backstories at D&D tables for a few years.

It was a time when RAS approaching the peak of his popularity. I didn't like these novels - because I didn't like the characters in them, especially that squirrel - but it seemed like everybody else could find little to fault with their beloved loyal and trusting Danica.

Perhaps Danica's lofty titles reflect Cadderly's romantic feelings for her. In dialogue or passages somewhat narrated from his perspective.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2020 17:15:30
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  18:49:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't a huge fan of that series, myself, and I've not read those books in many years.

I've long wondered if that series was an attempt by RAS to get away from his other characters and go off in a new direction -- a direction that did not, in TSR/WotC's judgement, work out.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  19:24:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They had a series of fighter books, a series of wizards books, an attempted series of rogue books ... the Quintet was an attempt to explore the priest-type character subset.

I found some of the choices interesting - the deity choices, the class/subclass/kit types chosen, etc. It avoided the obvious but righteous canon-thumping straight-by-the-old-book half-paladin Lathander/Tyr sorts of tropes, showing there's other deities with other interests and other people with other interests to worship them. And it was a good attempt to show priests can do much more than just fill an ambulance role.

RAS's writing didn't appeal to me. I liked his first handful of novels. But to me the rest of his (amazingly popular and iconic) work was just pulpy and contrived. So reading this Quintet felt like a bit of a sloggy chore to me, a strain to read, and I never thought Danica an attractive or extraordinary person no matter how much noble poetry and romantic majesty might be painted onto her name.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2020 19:27:09
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  20:54:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They had a series of fighter books, a series of wizards books, an attempted series of rogue books ... the Quintet was an attempt to explore the priest-type character subset.


The Cleric Quintet came out long before those others -- something like 15 years before.

And when the Cleric Quintet books came out was during that era that TSR was putting out a lot of fiction. I imagine the authors were allowed a lot more flexibility then, possibly to the point of "Hey, I've got a story, you interested?"

The class-series novels were all standalone, and there was a group of priest ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

RAS's writing didn't appeal to me. I liked his first handful of novels. But to me the rest of his (amazingly popular and iconic) work was just pulpy and contrived. So reading this Quintet felt like a bit of a sloggy chore to me, a strain to read, and I never thought Danica an attractive or extraordinary person no matter how much noble poetry and romantic majesty might be painted onto her name.



I liked his stuff when I first started reading it, but eventually I got bored with most of the characters -- with Jarlaxle being a notable exception.

The Thousand Orcs books killed my interest in Drizzt.

I can get bored with any character, if I read too much of them -- even if it's from one of my favorite authors.

A year or so ago, I decided to finally finished reading all of Raymond E Feist's Riftwar-related stuff. I'd tried to do so, in one straight run, several years previous, and only made it like 2/3rds of the way through before I had to read something else.

On this more recent attempt, I'd read one series, read something unrelated, then read the next series, then something unrelated, and so on... And that's with a changing cast, because the books are spread out over something like 200 years, with only three characters that are in the entire run, and a handful more that are around for most of it. A lot of cool characters come and go, during the series... But still, I had to break it up to keep from getting bored with it -- and that's with characters I really like, and a series that was practically my introduction to fantasy.

That's part of why WotC's bizarre handling of fiction is so frustrating to me. I want new characters. I want new stories. What I don't want is more and more of just one character, especially one I got bored with almost 20 years ago.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Nov 2020 20:55:59
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Ayrik
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  21:02:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sadly what we want doesn't always translate into what the "Big Five" publishers decide they (and their critics) are going to make into Best Sellers.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Nov 2020 :  21:47:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Sadly what we want doesn't always translate into what the "Big Five" publishers decide they (and their critics) are going to make into Best Sellers.



Aside from a couple of the D&D settings, I've only read tie-in fiction for a couple of other games... And one of those did the same routine of blowing up the setting and jumping forward a century. They continued doing fiction for a while after that, but I was done with them. I only got back into the setting a couple years ago because they've done a "soft reset" -- they haven't actually reset anything, but they've put more focus on earlier time frames, kinda leaving the later events off to one side.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 15 Nov 2020 :  01:32:25  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Belnick,

First off, thank you for your contribution here! This kind of discussion is always great.

quote:
Is it just me that dislike Danica the monk?


No, there are issues I take with her as a character as well. Most are associated with the rigidity of what a 2nd Ed. monk was, but there are other issues as well.

quote:
This has nothing to do with Danica being a woman as I loved Buffy and I loved Xena, but how Danica acts......maybe it is because it is a man, ra salvatore that writes her? anyway, here below is my rant :P


Nah, I for one did not take it that way as all. I feel that academic discussion should be able to occur without the shackles of offense and conformity. Speak your mid and let the discussion happen.

After all, heretics such as Giordano Bruno were burned at the stake, but had the last laugh upon his false accusers and the true gentes ab Roma mendax. ut mendacibus pars illorum qui in infernis arderet!

quote:
** My first annoyance started early on, Danica is doing her meditation/martial arts and the elf prince look at her, interested. Danica see him watching her, the elf prince, like a young brad pitt/tom cruice, but Danica is already with Cadderly so nothing comes of that, but there is where I already thought I knew how most of the books would go.


This stood out to me, quizzically. Why, at this point in the story, had you decided that this
quote:
...is where I already thought I knew how most of the books would go.
? Sure, Danica is with Cadderly and therefore isn't interested in the Elf prince. What stood out to you about that?

quote:
** Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" agrees with the prince to kill the wounded enemy in the forest and shows Cadderly she dislikes Cadderly decision to try and keep the enemy alive for information etc...and there is where it start, where she start to take sides with the elf prince, the hot sexy young brat pitt/tom cruice......


There seems to be a consistency to the "...hot sexy young brat pitt/tom cruice" Elf prince. Was it his aesthetics that created an issue, or something else in addition to that?

quote:
** After Cadderly knocked out the female Wizard that came to burn down the walking trees, Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" ORDER Cadderly to execute a defenseless unconscious woman.....Danica order Cadderly to murder a female prisoner of war, a now helpless woman.....I wonder if Drizzt would approve of Danica order?
This was not a goblin or an orc, this was a human woman, lying knocked out and defenseless and Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" order a goodly priest to execute this woman.....
Cadderly does not murder the wizard ofc....


Hmmm......this seems to be an issue of ethics. Since ethics are the "rules" if you will, that inform moral analysis (determining what is right or wrong) it stands to reason that the lens that Danica's behavior should be looked through is likely different than through the lens that Cadderly and the Elf prince looked at the same situation through.

It seems to me that Danica has a more consequentialist ethic that she subscribes too, and thus informs her decision making through that lens. As long as the consequences of the actions taken exceed in value, the consequences of indecision in this case, then the right decision was made. However, if for example the continuation of life of the individual to be executed (as Cadderly sought) were to lead to 10,000 dead innocent men, women, and children, the consequentialist ethic would be hard to support.

Cadderly and the Elf prince appear to be arguing for the continuation of life predicated on either a divine command theory ethic, or a utilitarian ethic. The fact that such disparate outcomes could exist informs us that decision making is not only a challenging thing to understand, but difficult to write about.

quote:
** Danica continue to spend 1 on 1 with the prince and later on when elf is king while they are clearing the forest, Cadderly tell them that he did not murder the wizard and both the elf king and Danica, "Loyal and trusting Danica" despise Cadderly for it.....She continue her combat in the forest next to the elf king until she decide to kick Cadderly out of the forest.


I agree this was an inconsistency in the writing. Ethically, there is a real lapse in consistency. It could be that more emotion played into the response in which case that would make sense (emotion is by its definition based on mood and instinct, as opposed to logic).

Overall, I am curious: what is it about Danica's nature, specifically, causes you to take umbrage with her as a character?

I will say, I love the Cleric Quintet. It is actually one of my favorite series for the Realms! :)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  23:50:01  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I wasn't a huge fan of that series, myself, and I've not read those books in many years.

I've long wondered if that series was an attempt by RAS to get away from his other characters and go off in a new direction -- a direction that did not, in TSR/WotC's judgement, work out.


I always wished Salvatore would have kept the Cleric Quintet characters completely separated from the Drizzt cast.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  04:06:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Entreri,

quote:
I always wished Salvatore would have kept the Cleric Quintet characters completely separated from the Drizzt cast.


I agree with you there, good sir. Who knows why that happened, but I felt that the storyline of the Cleric Quintet was solid on its own and didn't need any cross-pollination at all.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  04:43:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Entreri,

quote:
I always wished Salvatore would have kept the Cleric Quintet characters completely separated from the Drizzt cast.


I agree with you there, good sir. Who knows why that happened, but I felt that the storyline of the Cleric Quintet was solid on its own and didn't need any cross-pollination at all.

Best regards,







That's part of the reason I think Salvatore was trying to branch out and do something else: he managed to step outside the box TSR/WotC put him in once, and when they shoved him back in, he kept reaching outside of it.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  05:49:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Yeah, that's a good point you make there. I get that Drizz't is religious material at this point, but it went too far, and it clearly has been so strong on its own, it didn't need to be connected to anything else. It's just too bad that they had Bob in that box like that. I mean, great for money, but the story went for too long. I would have loved to have seen Bob write more in some other series, significantly, apart from the Drizz't stuff.

Best regards,







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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  12:39:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


It was a time when RAS approaching the peak of his popularity. I didn't like these novels - because I didn't like the characters in them, especially that squirrel



This squirrel.... I don't recall it... you have my interest...

also for the original author.... when a novel goes to be over say 25 years old, you don't need to put spoiler notes. God, I read this thing forever and a day ago. Like others, I didn't get into it and stopped at maybe the 2nd or 3rd book. I did like how RAS used Cadderly in later books though, as the character seemed more real there. Then again, that could have been nostalgia at play because I was reading those novels just a few years back.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Nov 2020 12:51:02
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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  14:09:26  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


It was a time when RAS approaching the peak of his popularity. I didn't like these novels - because I didn't like the characters in them, especially that squirrel



This squirrel.... I don't recall it... you have my interest...

also for the original author.... when a novel goes to be over say 25 years old, you don't need to put spoiler notes. God, I read this thing forever and a day ago. Like others, I didn't get into it and stopped at maybe the 2nd or 3rd book. I did like how RAS used Cadderly in later books though, as the character seemed more real there. Then again, that could have been nostalgia at play because I was reading those novels just a few years back.



Percival the squirrel. Lol

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  16:20:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


It was a time when RAS approaching the peak of his popularity. I didn't like these novels - because I didn't like the characters in them, especially that squirrel



This squirrel.... I don't recall it... you have my interest...

also for the original author.... when a novel goes to be over say 25 years old, you don't need to put spoiler notes. God, I read this thing forever and a day ago. Like others, I didn't get into it and stopped at maybe the 2nd or 3rd book. I did like how RAS used Cadderly in later books though, as the character seemed more real there. Then again, that could have been nostalgia at play because I was reading those novels just a few years back.



Percival the squirrel. Lol



AHHHHHHH, I see the problem now... his name should have been Squircival instead. Percival is SOOOO NOT a squirrel name. It just breaks believability.

You know... with all the great research he put into dwarven names to get such great names like Dagnabbit, you'd have thought he'd have talked to a kercpa. I mean, its like he didn't interview a single squirrel for that name. Unless he talked to one of those dirty, filthy skiurids that make such a bad name for squirrelkind. Yeah, that's gotta be it. There's no other possible explanation, whatsoever.

It almost feels like the poor squirrel and rabbit intellectuals of the world get so slighted versus other rodents. I mean wererats get all the focus for evil rodents, along with those nasty cranium rats. Oh, and don't get me going on the favoritism for space hamsters.... I mean, I love Boo and all, but.... damn, it I just can't make that argument.... Boo is looking at me and he's so cute with those eyes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Nov 2020 16:32:49
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  18:55:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and don't get me going on the favoritism for space hamsters.... I mean, I love Boo and all, but.... damn, it I just can't make that argument.... Boo is looking at me and he's so cute with those eyes.



All Giant Space Hamsters share an insane amount of adorableness. This goes for Miniature Giant Space Hamsters all the way up to Fire-Breathing Phase Doppleganger Giant Space Hamsters, Two-Headed Lernaean Bombardier Giant Space Hamsters, and of course Tyrannohamsterus Rexes.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  19:32:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and don't get me going on the favoritism for space hamsters.... I mean, I love Boo and all, but.... damn, it I just can't make that argument.... Boo is looking at me and he's so cute with those eyes.



All Giant Space Hamsters share an insane amount of adorableness. This goes for Miniature Giant Space Hamsters all the way up to Fire-Breathing Phase Doppleganger Giant Space Hamsters, Two-Headed Lernaean Bombardier Giant Space Hamsters, and of course Tyrannohamsterus Rexes.



You sir apparently have never had to clean out a den for a Fire-Breathing Phase Doppleganger Giant Space Hamster. Scooping their feces is a chore, what with all the phasing in and out while you're trying to shovel it. Not to mention the severely acidic nature of the dung, which ate through more than one shovel of mine, until I finally switched to glassteel shovel blades. Don't even get me started on what they eat and how they play with their prey, because despite stories to the contrary those monsters are meat eaters. No, there is nothing adorable about those beasties!

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  20:32:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's all a matter of perspective.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  04:38:29  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Entreri,

Honestly, it was the little things, especially in The Canticle that made that series so great for me. The squirrel......epic! :)

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
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Ayrik
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Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  04:40:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The squirrel. Grumble mumble ruummphff.

[/Ayrik]
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cpthero2
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Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  07:37:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

I just love the fact that not only were the Bouldershoulder brothers a thing in that quintet, but that one of them was a druid of Mielikki! So frickin' cool! :)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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