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 Would Mystra's Death make a Great Book or Series?
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Jrenlund
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  11:36:06  Show Profile Send Jrenlund a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello fellow FR fans. The death of Mystra that caused the Spellplague has always bothered me. Not that it happened, but the series of events that led up to the moment that literally change everything were not fully explained. There are quick mentions in different book series and FR canon, but I was thinking about a book (probably a trilogy) that would set down the facts and bring some new characters into the realm would be a fun project. I understand that the books would be set 2 editions ago, but after her death the characters could be transported into current edition (chronomancer, anyone?). What do you all think? Or did I miss a book or series that covered that fateful event in detail? Please let me know what you think.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3311 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  14:41:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, it doesn't have anything particular that makes it intetesting. It's so trite it's become a running joke in the FR community. And if you did it, you couldn't even focus on her death, because she actually survived, as we learn in Elminster Enraged.

Exploring the consequences of the Spellplague, and of the swapping of lands and civilizations between Abeir and Toril on people and societies--in detail--has far more potential for compelling conflict. But D&D, generally speaking, avoids doing that kind of stuff like the plague.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Sep 2020 14:45:35
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1799 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  15:28:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"The Many Deads of Mystra", sounds like a good name, . But, the issue is hardly relevant now. And personally I don't want to delve into the Mary-Sueness of Mystra anymore.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

No, it doesn't have anything particular that makes it intetesting. It's so trite it's become a running joke in the FR community. And if you did it, you couldn't even focus on her death, because she actually survived, as we learn in Elminster Enraged.



I guess that "surviving as a vestige" still counts as dead in D&D.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34213 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  16:09:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would personally prefer to avoid such a storyline.

I'd rather see something smaller in scale. Not only is her death now a past storyline -- which WotC avoided, even when publishing fiction -- but it's another RSE. WotC loves to go Hollywood and focus on "moar BOOM!" but the best stories are the smaller ones.

We don't need to blow up the moon; I'd rather see regular adventurers and common folks doing their part to make things right in their small patch of the Realms.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Sep 2020 16:10:09
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  16:20:06  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would read it but only if Mystra was wearing a red hoodie when she was killed and just before everything goes nuts, you could hear two child's voices say:

"You killed Mystra!"
"You bastards."

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9752 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  16:58:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stress on these words.... IF IT WERE DONE WELL.... I think it would make a great storyline IF we found out that there was a long convoluted plot from before the Time of Troubles and leading up to the death of Mystra AND following up to cover her return. Especially if said topic covered where the missing gods went and explained how they came back. The idea that the plots of the gods are long reaching and spanning generations of Faerunians (so the series would be seen through the eyes of dozens of NPC's, such that it would be more like a huge collection of interconnected short stories crossing the whole world that even the most "in the know" mortals would have problems connecting the dots for). The problem is, I don't trust the people up there to even remotely give it a heavy level of thought that I would expect. Even I, who throw around god plots like their water, took years to develop anything to explain away some of the craziness I've seen, and I know people would still have problems with my theories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3311 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  19:59:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I guess that "surviving as a vestige" still counts as dead in D&D.



Not really. If the topic of the novel is what happened during/after to Mystra after Cyric stabbed her, that includes having Mystra still talk and interact with stuff, because she still had her consciousness, just in a bear. And if you, as a reader, see Mystra do stuff, then she's alive, no matter how hard D&D tries to hammer you with the fact that she's dead--because it's telling you that she is dead, but showing you that she's alive. To me, the same goes for sentient ghosts--you just changed form, but you still do most of the things someone who's alive can do, so what even is the real difference?

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  23:03:41  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would read it but only if Mystra was wearing a red hoodie when she was killed and just before everything goes nuts, you could hear two child's voices say:

"You killed Mystra!"
"You bastards."


Yeah, that is the problem with edition to edition RSE's and what Wooly calls "MOAR BOOM!" Mystra should be called "Kenny". It is a running joke in our group. We would not care about a pending Mystra 4.0 in the least.
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
926 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  23:04:01  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would read it but only if Mystra was wearing a red hoodie when she was killed and just before everything goes nuts, you could hear two child's voices say:

"You killed Mystra!"
"You bastards."



Omg Mystra IS Kenny!!

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Edited by - Seethyr on 14 Sep 2020 23:04:23
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1266 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2020 :  23:54:31  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't help but see Mystra as TTS Vulkan now.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1799 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  01:50:23  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would read it but only if Mystra was wearing a red hoodie when she was killed and just before everything goes nuts, you could hear two child's voices say:

"You killed Mystra!"
"You bastards."



Omg Mystra IS Kenny!!




Mystra has been killed twice, and the third time was just a "dead". Mystra isn't Kenny. Mystra is Krillin.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2551 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  02:53:14  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a trilogy that sort of went into it: Empyrean Odyssey.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2276 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  16:06:26  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the killing of mystra every edition change is a poor joke. No I wouldnt read one

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  17:11:43  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both of the modern deaths were part of a story. The Avatar Trilogy and Empyrean Odyssey.

What needs to happen is WotC needs to tell writers to just write some decent characters so that they don't need to include RSE in every other damn novel in order to try to make mediocre writing exciting. :(
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34213 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  18:56:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Both of the modern deaths were part of a story. The Avatar Trilogy and Empyrean Odyssey.

What needs to happen is WotC needs to tell writers to just write some decent characters so that they don't need to include RSE in every other damn novel in order to try to make mediocre writing exciting. :(



That's not the problem. The problem is WotC is (or was, when they did novels) telling the authors what to write. The folks at WotC long ago noticed that RSE novels generally sold better than non-RSE ones*, and so they started pushing them. Also, WotC isn't going to let some author decide on their own to blow up the moon -- that's a directive that comes from above; things like that are planned well in advance so it can be incorporated across the board and not just in one book.

So every RSE was WotC saying "Lo, this shall happen!" and then tapping an author to do it.

*WotC said a long time ago that RSE novels sold better, but now, I'm skeptical on that one. I'm thinking there were likely more factors than just a simple comparison of book A to book B, but since WotC doesn't publish numbers, we'll never know. It's a known fact that you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say, depending on how you manipulate/present them, and there's at least one other instance where I think WotC chose careful wording/manipulation of info to get the answer they wanted.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  23:02:23  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Both of the modern deaths were part of a story. The Avatar Trilogy and Empyrean Odyssey.

What needs to happen is WotC needs to tell writers to just write some decent characters so that they don't need to include RSE in every other damn novel in order to try to make mediocre writing exciting. :(



That's not the problem. The problem is WotC is (or was, when they did novels) telling the authors what to write. The folks at WotC long ago noticed that RSE novels generally sold better than non-RSE ones*, and so they started pushing them. Also, WotC isn't going to let some author decide on their own to blow up the moon -- that's a directive that comes from above; things like that are planned well in advance so it can be incorporated across the board and not just in one book.

So every RSE was WotC saying "Lo, this shall happen!" and then tapping an author to do it.

*WotC said a long time ago that RSE novels sold better, but now, I'm skeptical on that one. I'm thinking there were likely more factors than just a simple comparison of book A to book B, but since WotC doesn't publish numbers, we'll never know. It's a known fact that you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say, depending on how you manipulate/present them, and there's at least one other instance where I think WotC chose careful wording/manipulation of info to get the answer they wanted.



What did WoTC consider as an RSE novel? For all we know, someone misread "RSE" as "RS" and ergo, sales of Drizzt books were factored into the comparison. Nominal categories and ordinal categories with fluid thresholds - for example - are instant red flags for any data model. I would also suspect if they did a control-treatment test that the respective populations got doctored straight to the Nine Hells.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1774 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  23:53:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Jrenlund,

No antagonizing meant here, to be clear:

quote:
Hello fellow FR fans. The death of Mystra that caused the Spellplague has always bothered me.


You hit the nail on the head, and going further is unnecessary.

Out of respect for what Master Rupert has expressed he doesn't want to see on here (as well as Alaundo and the Sage) for 4e wars, I will leave it at that.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1774 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  22:40:53  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Masked Mage,

Damn, isn't that the truth! I completely agree there. This trite crap that they keep lobbing at us vis-a-vis RSE is so old, and lazy.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Jrenlund
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  19:49:43  Show Profile Send Jrenlund a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for your time and knowledge with this subject. After reviewing your kind remarks and also looking at where WoTC is going with novels in general... I have scrapped this idea. Again, you all are very kind and I sincerely appreciate your help. Now on to something else!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1774 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  20:40:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Jrenlund,

Out of curiosity, were you considering writing the novels, or getting it figured out with some other writer?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Jrenlund
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2020 :  22:11:09  Show Profile Send Jrenlund a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master cpthero2,

Writing novels... I have started one that I placed in 5E (after catching up on the research). It doesn't deal with the death of Mystra, but rather the struggle between Gods and Primordials using different characters and artifacts. I was looking around the forum to see if there is somewhere else we can write content for the Forgotten Realms besides direct submissions to WoTC. If we can submit short stories or novellas elsewhere I would try that too (maybe Dragon+ and others). Other than that, there is Medium and other writing sites that we can post short stories on while making sure not to include any WoTC trademarked material. Also there is Dungeon Master's Guide et all to submit other content besides novels (such as new classes/races/characters and adventures). Any help would be appreciated and if I need to move this somewhere else on the forum please let me know.

Respectfully,
Acolyte Jrenlund
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34213 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  00:24:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jrenlund

Master cpthero2,

Writing novels... I have started one that I placed in 5E (after catching up on the research). It doesn't deal with the death of Mystra, but rather the struggle between Gods and Primordials using different characters and artifacts. I was looking around the forum to see if there is somewhere else we can write content for the Forgotten Realms besides direct submissions to WoTC. If we can submit short stories or novellas elsewhere I would try that too (maybe Dragon+ and others). Other than that, there is Medium and other writing sites that we can post short stories on while making sure not to include any WoTC trademarked material. Also there is Dungeon Master's Guide et all to submit other content besides novels (such as new classes/races/characters and adventures). Any help would be appreciated and if I need to move this somewhere else on the forum please let me know.

Respectfully,
Acolyte Jrenlund



WotC is basically not in the fiction business, right now, and even when they were, unsolicited manuscripts were generally not accepted.

You're better off putting your time and effort to something not WotC-owned, at the moment. Get yourself out there on your own, get published, make a name for yourself -- and then, if WotC decides to get back into fiction, then you're established and can make a much better "publish me!" case.

Friend of mine did a lot of poems and short stories, for magazines and anthologies and websites and such, before she got her first novel deal -- and even then, it wasn't for what she intended to be her first novel. She's got five novels in print, now (a duology and a trilogy), plus a couple anthologies, but that first novel she wrote remains unpublished.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1774 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  01:45:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Jrenlund,

As sad as it is: I feel that Master Rupert's guidance is spot on.

Unfortunately, the dearth of lore based material from WotC is a bad sign for development of the Realms. Lore can cost a lot of money when it comes to research time, etc. Being able to just pump out low commitment books that are not going to enrage people in these unfortunate RL times, is just easier I think on the bottom line all around.

I would say this though, apart from paid work that you may be interested in from WotC in writing novels, that does touch a bit on what Master Rupert just mentioned.

In addition to working on novel material in some other way, you could work on filling in the immeasurable gaps on material for the Realms and publish things such as Realms poems, songs, "Bible's" of the different religions, and much, much more. That could all go out I believe to the DM's guild, which could really start getting your name out there for different kinds of works. I know when you read some of Snowblood's material for example, it is just amazing (among many other fantastic writer's here at the Keep of course), and people eat that stuff up!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2276 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  05:37:44  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Both of the modern deaths were part of a story. The Avatar Trilogy and Empyrean Odyssey.

What needs to happen is WotC needs to tell writers to just write some decent characters so that they don't need to include RSE in every other damn novel in order to try to make mediocre writing exciting. :(



That's not the problem. The problem is WotC is (or was, when they did novels) telling the authors what to write. The folks at WotC long ago noticed that RSE novels generally sold better than non-RSE ones*, and so they started pushing them. Also, WotC isn't going to let some author decide on their own to blow up the moon -- that's a directive that comes from above; things like that are planned well in advance so it can be incorporated across the board and not just in one book.

So every RSE was WotC saying "Lo, this shall happen!" and then tapping an author to do it.

*WotC said a long time ago that RSE novels sold better, but now, I'm skeptical on that one. I'm thinking there were likely more factors than just a simple comparison of book A to book B, but since WotC doesn't publish numbers, we'll never know. It's a known fact that you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say, depending on how you manipulate/present them, and there's at least one other instance where I think WotC chose careful wording/manipulation of info to get the answer they wanted.



What did WoTC consider as an RSE novel? For all we know, someone misread "RSE" as "RS" and ergo, sales of Drizzt books were factored into the comparison. Nominal categories and ordinal categories with fluid thresholds - for example - are instant red flags for any data model. I would also suspect if they did a control-treatment test that the respective populations got doctored straight to the Nine Hells.


Last mythal series was realms shaking
that one with the death of mystra sided in it
any novel that dealt with the time of troubles.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Jrenlund
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  11:36:39  Show Profile Send Jrenlund a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for the encouragement. I will look into additional material for DM's Guild. I too love their material and it would be a great place to add to the community. Thank you all again and I look forward to other posts!

You guys rock!
Acolyte Jrenlund

Edited by - Jrenlund on 22 Oct 2020 15:37:51
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1774 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  20:04:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acolyte Jrenlund,

Happy to help in whatever way I did. Keep apprised of any publications to put to the masses!

May Oghma keep your mind clear and Deneir your hand light in cramps!

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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