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beagle
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  14:41:34  Show Profile Send beagle a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm looking for a compiled list of deity locations in Faerun during the Time of Troubles. Any help would be appreciated.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  15:24:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR Wiki includes such a list: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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beagle
Acolyte

USA
0 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  16:17:05  Show Profile Send beagle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The FR Wiki includes such a list: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles



Thanks for the quick response. I've studied that entry closely, learned something important that I didn't already know ("Garagos slaughtered many people in Westgate's harbour district before wading into the sea"), but I still see a great many gaps in the list when I compare it to the list of deities that make up the human, as well as demihuman, pantheons. I'd be specifically interested in knowing more on the whereabouts of Chauntea, Silvanus, and Garl Glittergold. I'd also be interested in knowing of any other deities that resided in the Dragon Coast or eastern half of the "Western Heartlands" (Berdusk, Iriaebor, Proskur, etc.)

My inquiry supports a campaign I am planning to be set in Westgate and begin as the Year of the Prince (1357 DR) concludes. Deities named above are those worshipped by the divine spellcasters of the party. As the campaign unfolds, it will overlap with the Time of Troubles. I envision that, once the PCs figure out what's going on and why their divine abilities have been lost, they will probably consider seeking out one or more of their deities avatars.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  17:01:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was an article on the WotC website, back in the day, with a list... However, they rearrange their website every few months, and in a stunning display of incompetence, never bother to update old links or anything, so I don't think that even the WotC web people could find the article now.

However... It was written by Tom Costa. And he himself shared what he wrote, in a discussion a couple years back.

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I couldn't find the article I wrote for the WotC website, but here it is from way back when. There may have been a few nuggets since it was first published, but I don't think many, if any....

The Avatar Trilogy:
The Gods Walk Toril
By Thomas M. Costa

1358 DR, the Year of Shadows and the Time of Troubles, also known as the Godswar and the Avatar Crisis, when gods walked Toril, was the most destructive and disruptive time in Faerūn’s recent history. While the Avatar Trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep) follows the quest of four mortal heroes and involves a handful of Faerūn’s gods directly, the power of a god tends to get noticed, and other Forgotten Realms novels and game supplements have revealed the goings-on of many other powers. Some of these gods died and are slowly becoming only memories among the folks of the Realms, others wreaked havoc, and others served as godly shields against their fellow powers and magic gone awry.

[Julia, I have avoided obvious citations from obvious sources, notably the Avatar Trilogy and three 2E game modules of the same name, the hardcover 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures, and three 2E godbooks. No new information was provided in Faiths and Avatars or other 3E products (with the exception of some clarifications in FRCS) that I found.]

Faerūnian Pantheon

The Faerūnian pantheon was the most closely involved in the Time of Troubles, with its members directly responsible for the events leading up to and ending the crisis.
Ao: Elminster's Safehold, Mt. Waterdeep (Cloak of Shadows, Waterdeep)
Azuth: Pool of Yeven (FRE2)
Bane: Zhentil Keep, Castle Kilgrave, Shadowdale, Scardale, Tantras (FRE1,2; Av. Tril.)
Bhaal: Eveningstar, High Horn, Boareskyr Bridge (FRE2, Av. Tril.)
Eldath: The Misty Forest (Cloak of Shadows)
Garagos: Garagos rampaged through Westgate’s harbor before wading out into the Sea of Fallen Stars, leaving a blood-red harbor in his wake.
Gond: The Wonderbringer fell to Toril as a gnome on the shores of Lantan. In gratitude for the sanctuary, he taught the Lantanese the secrets of smokepowder.
Gwaeron Windstrom: the North (P&P)
Helm: The Vigilant One was the only god to not loose his divine power and was charged with guarding the Nexus of the Planes, a portal that leads to the otherworldly domains of the gods, from his brethren.
Hoar: Hoar stalked the Old Empires, appearing in Akanax, Thay, and Unther, where he slew Ramman, Untheric god of war, but lost his foe’s portfolio to Anhur, Mulhorandi god of war.
Ibrandul: Ibrandul, god of caverns, was slain in the Underdark beneath Waterdeep by Shar in secret and his portfolio stolen.
Iyachtu Xvim: The avatar of the godling Iyachtu Xvim, half-demon offspring of Bane, was imprisoned under Zhentil Keep.
Jergal: Unknown ("Played no part in the Time of Troubles" P&P)
Lliira: Shadowdale, Cormanthor (F&A (under Waukeen))
Malar: Malar battled Nobanion in the Gulthmere Forest before fleeing to the North where he was hunted by Gwaeron Windstrom.
Mask: Disguised as Godsbane, Cyric's sword; Cormyr to Waterdeep (Prince of Lies)
Mielikki: The Misty Forest (Cloak of Shadows)
Milil: Athkatla (F&A)
Moander: Never specifically revealed, but presumably the Lost Vale (Song of the Saurials) (see Note 3)
Myrkul: Waterdeep (FRE3)
Mystra: Castle Kilgrave (FRE1)
Nobanion: Gulthmere Forest, Shining Plains (P&P)
Red Knight: The Red Knight appeared in northeastern Tethyr, helping that nation defeat monsters raiding from the Wealdath.
Savras: Imprisoned in the Scepter of Savras (P&P)
Selūne: Shar and Selūne fought another round of their age-old battle as mortals in Waterdeep.
Shar: Shar and Selūne fought another round of their age-old battle as mortals in Waterdeep. Shar also secretly slew Ibrandul, god of caverns, in the Underdark beneath Waterdeep and stole his portfolio.
Sharess: Sharess took the form of the favorite concubine of the pasha of Calimport and was liberated from the growing influence of Shar by Sune.
Shaundakul: Shaundakul roamed the ruins of Myth Drannor, where he battled and destroyed the avatar of a minor orc deity.
Shiallia: the North (P&P)
Siamorphe: Waterdeep (P&P)
Silvanus: Winterwood and Chondalwood (F&A)
Sseth: Black Jungles, Chult (P&P)
Sune: Calimport, Teziir (P&P (under Sharess), Waterdeep)
Talona: Castle Trinity (Canticle)
Talos: Tsurlagol (Waterdeep)
Tempus: Tempus arrived in the shell of a shattered castle in Battledale, before moving on to the battlefield of Swords Creek in Mistledale.
Torm: Tantras (FRE2)
Tymora: Tymora appeared at her temple in Arabel, Cormyr, and it is thought her presence there spared the city much destruction.
Ubtao: Chult (P&P)
Ulutiu: Asleep under the Great Glacier (FR14, P&P)
Umberlee: The Bitch Queen spent the Time of Troubles in the Sea of Fallen Stars, wreaking destruction on one pirate isle after another. She also appeared in the Trackless Sea, off the coast of Trisk near the Purple Rocks, where she is believed to have met with her seraph, a mighty kraken.
Waukeen: Shadowdale, Cormanthor, Astral Plane, the Abyss (F&A)

The locations of several Faerūnian powers remain unrevealed, including Akadi, Auril, Beshaba, Chauntea, Deneir, Eshowdow (since slain by Shar in any case), Gargauth, Grumbar, Ilmater, Istishia, Kossuth, Lathander, Leira, Loviatar, Lurue, Oghma, Tyr, Uthgar, and Valkur. Likewise, the demigod Jergal is mysteriously said to have played no part in the Time of Troubles. In addition, there are a few gods who had not yet become deities, including Finder Wyvernspur and Velsharoon.

Auril: Unknown (see Note 2)
Ilmater: Unknown (See Note 2)
Leira: Unknown (see Note 2)
Loviatar: Unknown (see Note 2)

[Julia, I included the Chultan pantheon in with the Faerūnian pantheon as it seemed like an artificial break in 2E that was done away with in 3E. In addition to the obvious sources, the following source material applies: Ao (Cloak of Shadows); Eldath (Cloak of Shadows), Garagos (Cloak and Dagger web enhancement), Hoar (Cloak of Shadows), Iyachtu Xvim (Ruins of Zhentil Keep), Lliira (Waukeen entry of Faiths and Avatars), Malar (Nobanion entry of Powers and Pantheons), Mask (Prince of Lies, 3E FRCS, Faiths and Avatars), Mielikki (Cloak of Shadows), Selūne (FR comic, 3E FRCS), Shar (FR comic, 3E FRCS, Sharess entry of Powers and Pantheons), Shaundakul (3E FRCS), Sune (Sharess entry of Powers and Pantheons), Talona (Canticle), Tempus (All Shadows Fled, 3E FRCS), Umberlee (Cloak and Dagger), Waukeen (For Duty and Deity)]

Mulhorandi Pantheon

Prior to the Godswar, the ancient nation of Mulhorand was ruled by the incarnations and manifestations of their gods, but nevertheless, noted for their somnolence. The Time of Troubles changed that, bringing about a new age of activism for the Mulhorandi pantheon. The location of most of Mulhorand’s gods during this time, including Hathor, Isis, Nephthys, Osiris, Sebek, Set, and Thoth, remains unrevealed – although most of them were almost assuredly located in that ancient empire.
Anhur: Mulhorand, Alamber Sea (P&P)
Geb: Ship of the Gods (P&P)
Horus-Re: Unknown, but likely in Skuld as Pharaoh Horustep III (implied in P&P)

Untheric Pantheon

After millennia of misrule and tyranny under Gilgeam, what remained of the Untheric pantheon came to an end during the Godswar.
Gilgeam and Tiamat: Gilgeam, the god-king of Unther, was slain by his rival Tiamat in Unthalass, ending his two-millennium rule of that nation and spelling the end of the Untheric pantheon. Tiamat then joined the factitious Faerūnian pantheon.
Ramman: Ramman, Untheric god of war, was slain by his ancient rival Hoar, but was able to prevent his slayer from claiming his portfolio, instead passing it on to Anhur of the Mulhorandi pantheon

Nonhuman Powers

The locations of very few nonhuman gods have been revealed. The few that have been revealed are noted below.
Clangeddin Silverbeard and Labelas Enoreth: Clangeddin Silverbeard, in the form of three dwarves melded into a giant earth elemental, battled Labelas Enoreth, who had possessed the body of his cleric Vartan Hai Sylvar for use as his avatar, on the isle of Ruathym over a misunderstanding. The battle resulted in the destruction of Clangeddin’s avatar.
Deep Duerra: Duerra’s avatar appeared in Underspires, a duergar city deep below the Osraun Mountains of northern Turmish, in the form of the Queen Mother, who was serving as regent of the city until War King Olorn reached his maturity. Under the goddess’ leadership, the city’s army extended the holdings of Underspires, before she disappeared into the southernmost reaches of the Underdark.
Ilsensine: The Tentacled Lord of the mind flayers manifested in the city of Oryndoll, miles beneath the Shining Plains west of the Vilhon Reach, adopting the elder brain of Oryndoll as its avatar form.
Lolth: The Spider Queen appeared in her great city of Menzoberranzan, home of the outcast Drizzt Do’Urden, where she allegedly slew a minor drow deity of assassination and usurped her portfolio.
Segojan Earthcaller and Urdlen: Hardbuckler was the said to have been the site of a great struggle between the avatars and servants of the Lord of Burrows, Segojan, and the Crawler Below, Urdlen.
Sekolah: The great white shark deity of the sahuagin battled Anhur off the coast of Mulhorand in the Alamber Sea.
Selvertarm: Selvetarm rampaged through the drow city of Eryndlyn, located in hidden caves beneath the High Moor, attacking strongholds of the followers of Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun. The avatar was eventually driven into the wild Underdark by an alliance of the victimized cults.

[The locations of Clangeddin and Labelas are noted in the 3E FRCS, Demihuman Deities, and the old FR comic, Deep Duerra, Segojan, Selvetarm, and Urdlen are all noted in Demihuman Deities, Ilsensine is noted in Drizzt Do’Urden’s Guide to the Underdark, Lolth in Demihuman Deities, On Hallowed Ground, and the novel Siege of Darkness, and Sekolah in the Anhur entry of Powers and Pantheons.]

Spoiler Link

[Julia, you could either drop this section all together or maybe create a separate link to it on the website.]

Bane: Zhentil Keep, Castle Kilgrave, Shadowdale, Scardale, Tantras (FRE1,2; Av. Tril.)
Bhaal: Eveningstar, High Horn, Boareskyr Bridge (FRE2, Av. Tril.)
Cyric: Not yet a god. Arabel to Shadowdale to Tantras to Waterdeep (Av. Tril.)
Kelemvor: Not yet a god. Arabel to Shadowdale to Tantras to Waterdeep (Av. Tril.)
Mask: Disguised as Godsbane, Cyric's sword; Cormyr to Waterdeep (Prince of Lies)
Myrkul: Waterdeep (FRE3)
Mystra: Castle Kilgrave (FRE1)… Midnight.
Torm: Tantras (FRE2)

For more information about the Time of Troubles read the Avatar Trilogy of novels, including Shadowdale (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Scott Ciencin, Tantras (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Jim Lowder, and Waterdeep (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Troy Denning, and check out the Faiths and Pantheons (http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?88643) game product by Eric L. Boyd and Erik Mona. (A quick game-oriented look at some of Faerūn’s less prominent deities by Thomas E. Rinschler can be found in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting web enhancement, “More of the Divine,” at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010606a.)

Thanks: To Ed Greenwood, Julia Martin, Eric L. Boyd, Thomas E. Rinschler, Erik Mona, and everyone else who has played a part in bringing the gods of the Realms from the darkness of the Outer Planes into the light of Toril’s sun.

About the Author: Thomas M. Costa is a professional staffer for a committee in the U.S. House of Representatives. He has been a contributor to several Wizards of the Coast products such as Demihuman Deities and Races of Faerūn, and is the author or co-author of a number of Dragon Magazine and Wizards of the Coast website articles. He can be reached at THOMASC148@aol.com.



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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  17:17:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by beagle

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The FR Wiki includes such a list: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles



Thanks for the quick response. I've studied that entry closely, learned something important that I didn't already know ("Garagos slaughtered many people in Westgate's harbour district before wading into the sea"), but I still see a great many gaps in the list when I compare it to the list of deities that make up the human, as well as demihuman, pantheons. I'd be specifically interested in knowing more on the whereabouts of Chauntea, Silvanus, and Garl Glittergold. I'd also be interested in knowing of any other deities that resided in the Dragon Coast or eastern half of the "Western Heartlands" (Berdusk, Iriaebor, Proskur, etc.)

My inquiry supports a campaign I am planning to be set in Westgate and begin as the Year of the Prince (1357 DR) concludes. Deities named above are those worshipped by the divine spellcasters of the party. As the campaign unfolds, it will overlap with the Time of Troubles. I envision that, once the PCs figure out what's going on and why their divine abilities have been lost, they will probably consider seeking out one or more of their deities avatars.



Not all deities have recorded appearances during the ToT. However, the list that Wooly posted includes Silvanus' apperance in Waterdeep and Chondalwood. As for Chauntea, it seems that info about her appearance during the ToT is lacking; same for Garl Glittergold (they don't appear neither in the wiki list, nor in Tom Costa's list, and I didn't see anything about appearances during the ToT in Garl's entry in Demihuman Deities). Then again, perhaps there are details scattered in other, later sources that aren't directly related to the topics of deities or of the ToT (for example, Eilistraee's appearance to rescue the drow refugees is a detail in Champions of Valor), but I wouldn't know where to start looking.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 10 Aug 2019 17:20:54
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beagle
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  17:50:05  Show Profile Send beagle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for posting--that is exactly the kind of resource I was hoping to find. Anyone care to share their clever hypotheses on likely locations of Chauntea and Garl Glittergold?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3078 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2019 :  18:31:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by beagle

Thanks for posting--that is exactly the kind of resource I was hoping to find. Anyone care to share their clever hypotheses on likely locations of Chauntea and Garl Glittergold?



Demihuman Deities says that urdlen attacked some gnome communities, turning them into weremoles. It's likely that Garl showed up to stop Urdlen's rampage. Garl is a joker, but he's known to get serious when it comes to protecting his people, so it would fit his character.

I'm at a loos for Chauntea, in that she might have appeared anywhere to do things like blessing crops, or repairing damage done to nature due to the collateral effects of the ToT (maybe alongside other nature gods).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Aug 2019 :  16:50:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the big finds is that Kossuth DID get pushed to Toril despite all the things that say the elemental lords didn't. Its in Serpent Kingdoms.

During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth appeared in the Burning Rift beneath the Peaks of Flame and chose a firenewt blackguard named Chassan, overlord of a local tribe, as his avatar. Kossuth/Chassan led the firenewts into a brutal war with the pterafolk of the Chultengar, and the conflict lasted until the Avatar Crisis had ended. Kossuth returned to the planes, leaving the charred corpse of Chassan in his wake, but the god later rewarded Chassan's loyalty by allowing him to return to his tribe as a deathflame (a version of a death knight; see Chassan, below). Chassan, who still leads the Ack'ta tribe by the Flamelord's decree, is one of the few firenewt overlords who also holds, sway over the clerics of Kossuth.




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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beagle
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2019 :  17:27:25  Show Profile Send beagle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One of the big finds is that Kossuth DID get pushed to Toril despite all the things that say the elemental lords didn't. Its in Serpent Kingdoms.

During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth appeared in the Burning Rift beneath the Peaks of Flame and chose a firenewt blackguard named Chassan, overlord of a local tribe, as his avatar. Kossuth/Chassan led the firenewts into a brutal war with the pterafolk of the Chultengar, and the conflict lasted until the Avatar Crisis had ended. Kossuth returned to the planes, leaving the charred corpse of Chassan in his wake, but the god later rewarded Chassan's loyalty by allowing him to return to his tribe as a deathflame (a version of a death knight; see Chassan, below). Chassan, who still leads the Ack'ta tribe by the Flamelord's decree, is one of the few firenewt overlords who also holds, sway over the clerics of Kossuth.







Thanks for the help! I wonder if this serves as precedent to suggest all elemental deities were forced to walk Faerun.
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beagle
Acolyte

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Posted - 12 Aug 2019 :  17:30:10  Show Profile Send beagle a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a ToT-related question: Did divine spell casters in service to Helm lose their ability to prepare and use their allotted spells?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8291 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2019 :  21:37:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by beagle

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One of the big finds is that Kossuth DID get pushed to Toril despite all the things that say the elemental lords didn't. Its in Serpent Kingdoms.

During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth appeared in the Burning Rift beneath the Peaks of Flame and chose a firenewt blackguard named Chassan, overlord of a local tribe, as his avatar. Kossuth/Chassan led the firenewts into a brutal war with the pterafolk of the Chultengar, and the conflict lasted until the Avatar Crisis had ended. Kossuth returned to the planes, leaving the charred corpse of Chassan in his wake, but the god later rewarded Chassan's loyalty by allowing him to return to his tribe as a deathflame (a version of a death knight; see Chassan, below). Chassan, who still leads the Ack'ta tribe by the Flamelord's decree, is one of the few firenewt overlords who also holds, sway over the clerics of Kossuth.







Thanks for the help! I wonder if this serves as precedent to suggest all elemental deities were forced to walk Faerun.



And did all of the primordials appear within the pantheon-space of their fellow primordials. By that I mean Ubtao is a documented primordial. So is Kossuth. If Kossuth's people were going after some ptera folk, was it because Akadi was amongst them? Were all the "primordials" descended in Chult? Were they maybe descended in some other portion of the world that is also dominated by primordials?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Aug 2019 :  00:12:41  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One of the big finds is that Kossuth DID get pushed to Toril despite all the things that say the elemental lords didn't. Its in Serpent Kingdoms.

Not necessarily "pushed".
We have examples of how "local" divine essence works. Imaskari anti-divine ward and imprisonment of Moander's essence by the Elven High Mages. The pantheon Imaskari blockaded circumvented the barrier via spelljamming, but their essences that moved into Realmspace in avatars were cut off. Does it mean they vanished from elsewhere? Well, those were normal avatars, so in most cases, no.

Nothing says the multi-sphere gods were absent in other worlds. Waukeen, Mystra? They are single-sphere deities. Loviatar, Tyr, Tyche (in two pieces) and Ghanadaur are multi-sphere, but there's no evidence of their absence elsewhere AFAIK.
Thus "part of divine essence of X was cut off in an unusual way" interpretation is possible.
Elemental Lords? They are not only venerated in multiple spheres, they are more than "deities". Their worship on Toril is a small part of a small part of their power. Thus, if a proportional part of essence from each Elemental Lord got stuck in Realmspace for duration of Time of Troubles (or forever), nobody would notice anything amiss.
And due to nature of Elemental Lords (they don't care about mortal affairs all that much, and don't have organized churches), their forced avatars would simply go about some obscure business, unnoticed until Time of Troubles ends and they separate again.
Kussuth only was noticed because his followers tend to be more aggressive. And even then it was a chance: if it was a firenewt under Hill of Lost Souls, nobody who isn't another firenewt would know, or as much as see evidence and live to tell the tale.

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sleyvas
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USA
8291 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2019 :  15:13:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One of the big finds is that Kossuth DID get pushed to Toril despite all the things that say the elemental lords didn't. Its in Serpent Kingdoms.

Not necessarily "pushed".
We have examples of how "local" divine essence works. Imaskari anti-divine ward and imprisonment of Moander's essence by the Elven High Mages. The pantheon Imaskari blockaded circumvented the barrier via spelljamming, but their essences that moved into Realmspace in avatars were cut off. Does it mean they vanished from elsewhere? Well, those were normal avatars, so in most cases, no.

Nothing says the multi-sphere gods were absent in other worlds. Waukeen, Mystra? They are single-sphere deities. Loviatar, Tyr, Tyche (in two pieces) and Ghanadaur are multi-sphere, but there's no evidence of their absence elsewhere AFAIK.
Thus "part of divine essence of X was cut off in an unusual way" interpretation is possible.
Elemental Lords? They are not only venerated in multiple spheres, they are more than "deities". Their worship on Toril is a small part of a small part of their power. Thus, if a proportional part of essence from each Elemental Lord got stuck in Realmspace for duration of Time of Troubles (or forever), nobody would notice anything amiss.
And due to nature of Elemental Lords (they don't care about mortal affairs all that much, and don't have organized churches), their forced avatars would simply go about some obscure business, unnoticed until Time of Troubles ends and they separate again.
Kussuth only was noticed because his followers tend to be more aggressive. And even then it was a chance: if it was a firenewt under Hill of Lost Souls, nobody who isn't another firenewt would know, or as much as see evidence and live to tell the tale.



My point was though that there's constantly this statement in the works that says something along the lines of "the elemental lords didn't get affected by ToT", and yet here we have something to counter those statements in a clear manner.

That being said, I would also WONDER as to the validity of the elemental lords truly being multi-spheric. I know we picture it that way, but is there any actual evidence to support it. Basically, I wonder as to the power of the elemental lords and the nature of the elemental planes/elemental chaos. Just to throw out a ball park theory (which may or may not be true, but to open the idea to discussion), what if just like there are overgods for a crystal sphere, what if there are "elemental lords" for a crystal sphere. By that I propose some options to our own understanding of a crystal sphere and the elemental planes tied to it, using evidence from 2e, 3e and 4e.

The general idea
There are multiple "planes of fire" that are all "tied together" in some fashion to make the whole overarching "Plane of Fire". This is kind of like how there was an abyss for Toril and an abyss for Greyhawk in 3e. These various "pocket planes" of fire are connected via the elemental chaos. Kossuth is lord of the elemental plane of fire that is "attached" to Realmspace.


What might support this concept? Dark Sun's planes are noted as having elemental planes whose denizens have been weakened, etc... by the actions of the defilers (going way back to 2e era). Similarly, Eberron has a different plane of fire (Fernia) which acts slightly differently. The whole elemental chaos idea itself versus the paraelemental plane concepts that we had in previous editions also lends itself to this.


It may even be possible for an elemental lord to somehow control multiple of these "separate planes of fire" just as how some abyssal lords may have control over more than a single layer.


Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, its nothing that really affects game play much, but its been something that's made me wonder about just how much control these beings truly have. This model makes sense to me given how much "change" we've seen in the various worlds and editions of the game.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mirtek
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Posted - 26 Sep 2019 :  08:50:05  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it never specifically said they were not effected, just that they were not seen.

If a deity prefered to just quietly sit out the event, there are of course plenty ways to do so.

Gruumbar just chosing to manifest as a rock inside a mountain and not move an inch until it's all over would not contradict him not being seen by anyone during the tot
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Wrigley
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Posted - 26 Sep 2019 :  13:12:01  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I still do not understand is how is it that many dieties should have known about ToT beforehand (multiple prophecies) but nobody prepared or acted on it (not counting Dead Three who created the mess). Was it game only for mortals? Did Ao recently read the Hunger Games? Another explanation is that gods are subject to Fate and they simply play their part knowingly or not...
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  12:14:53  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, a prophecy is really only good in hind sight.

More than that, if you really dig, it seems that many of the gods did have plans in place, in one form or another. Problem is, when you get a bunch of gods all working at different ends then nothing is going to go exactly as planned.
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Wrigley
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Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  14:44:18  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Well, a prophecy is really only good in hind sight.

More than that, if you really dig, it seems that many of the gods did have plans in place, in one form or another. Problem is, when you get a bunch of gods all working at different ends then nothing is going to go exactly as planned.



Than it is not a prophecy if you cannot look for signs of it.
I do not dig prophecies in FR but it is in lore so I am trying to get my head around them.
As I see it in cannon there are multiple sources that have clearly foreseen major events and warned before them and I do not understand why gods have not done anything about it.
If you are a god and know that prophecies might be true would you not listen to them and prepare for what is coming? Lets say there is a fate so you cannot escape it but you can be prepared...
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  15:49:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Well, a prophecy is really only good in hind sight.

More than that, if you really dig, it seems that many of the gods did have plans in place, in one form or another. Problem is, when you get a bunch of gods all working at different ends then nothing is going to go exactly as planned.



Than it is not a prophecy if you cannot look for signs of it.
I do not dig prophecies in FR but it is in lore so I am trying to get my head around them.
As I see it in cannon there are multiple sources that have clearly foreseen major events and warned before them and I do not understand why gods have not done anything about it.
If you are a god and know that prophecies might be true would you not listen to them and prepare for what is coming? Lets say there is a fate so you cannot escape it but you can be prepared...



The one that blows my mind is the idea that some mortals, most notably Halaster, somehow knew the Spellplague was coming, but the gods were somehow blind to it.

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Wrigley
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Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  17:49:30  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The one that blows my mind is the idea that some mortals, most notably Halaster, somehow knew the Spellplague was coming, but the gods were somehow blind to it.


That is exactly what I am talking about. That is why I am trying to understand how prophecies should work so it make any sense of it.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 10 Oct 2019 :  20:28:33  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's possible the gods knew of the prophecies, which is why some of them at least had contingencies in place, both for the ToT and the Spellplague. But prophecies are vague and open to interpretation, so not everyone was sure how to react or what contingencies to put in place. The true nature of the prophecy only became clear after the fact. Ergo, gods were aware of the prophecies, but didn't know exactly what they mean (since the gods of the Realms are not omniscient). This would be my guess, anyway. They tried to figure out the prophecy (or at least some of them did), and thus fared better in the end than others.

It also begs the question of where Ao falls into all this. If there was a prophecy about the ToT, did he know about it? He destroyed the Tablets, after all. Did he know he was going to do this, but felt he had no choice? That then begs the question of how far Ao's powers go.

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 10 Oct 2019 :  21:54:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


The one that blows my mind is the idea that some mortals, most notably Halaster, somehow knew the Spellplague was coming, but the gods were somehow blind to it.



This is not accurate. Mystra knew about the Spellplague, that's why she did all those preparations mentioned in Elminster Enraged and other sources. The only thing she did wrong was miscalculate the effects putting the Weave off in such a forceful way would have on her (plus, it seems she didn't knew Shar was using Azuth's Staff for the deed). And obviously, she couldn't predict the Far Realms' interference.

Likewise, Deneir knew what was coming, and so he fused with the metatext to skip all those years.

One can guess that a few other deities knew, or at least suspected what was coming, but were unable to properly prepare for something on the scale of the Spellplague.

Anyways, here on Candlekeep is s compilation of what some deities were doing during the ToT.

http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090488

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Oct 2019 22:03:42
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 10 Oct 2019 :  23:17:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


That being said, I would also WONDER as to the validity of the elemental lords truly being multi-spheric.



Well, at the very least, in 4e they are. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos mentions that Kossuth and the others are revered in Nentir Vale as part of the "good" primordials. And implies that they are also known in Greyhawk as well.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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