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 Elven High Magic: Flawed or Troped?
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El Oso Gigante
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  19:59:06  Show Profile Send El Oso Gigante a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Elven High Magic creates the elven homeland of Evermeet, and causes the Sundering, killing millions in the process. High magic brings low the dragon overlords, and continues to cause dragon rages down through the millennia, killing (probably) millions in the process. High magic curses the irredeemably evil Illithyri, and also curses (probably) thousands of innocent dark elves in the process. Mythals get corrupted and cause problems, et cetera.

So I guess my question for the sages (Hurrah I finally thought of one!) is: "Is high magic inherently flawed or broken somehow, or do I just think that because 'hubris of elves' just maybe a little overused? Or is it not really overused but the catastrophes are just what history remembers?"

p.s. hurray first post! You guys are great!

My name is James and I can't stop thinking about dragons. These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  20:23:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think its flawed. Mythals get corrupted as times pass, which basically fits the idea that all magic eventually "decays".

The High Magic affecting the dragons.... well, considering the dragons will re-breed new dragons... and considering the other races will likely be the ones that the dragons feed upon.... hmmm, kills dragons and humans... WIN WIN.

The Elven Sundering? Yeah, we don't know the whole story there, at least I just have that feeling.

The elves that caused the descent? Honestly, I look at that one as just pure racism, not a flaw of the magic.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3546 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  21:13:26  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its a lesson that one can never control the outcome when using magic.

Humans are very much about the spontaneous use of magic and suffer much more immediate consequences.

Elves think longer term but even then they cannot predict the outcome. The dragon rages would eventually lead to the fracturing of the forests and weakening of the elven people. The sundering isolated elves and drew their strength gradually from faerun (again weakening them). The descent eliminated one enemy (the illythiiri empire) and created an even greater enemy (the drow).

I did read something interesting in Eds threads recently. The elves are born of the weave (and so are dragons) and should it cease to exist then they would lose much of their powers. Elves and dragons are both interlopers (elves from faerie and dragons from the tearfall). So that means at some point they altered themselves or were altered by someone to become more part of the weave and derive power from it.

That means high magic may not be the manipulation of raw magic at all, just a special function of the weave available only to elves (and dragons) because they are part of the weave itself.

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El Oso Gigante
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  21:39:44  Show Profile Send El Oso Gigante a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you both for your thoughts! Excellent points, all.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The High Magic affecting the dragons.... well, considering the dragons will re-breed new dragons... and considering the other races will likely be the ones that the dragons feed upon.... hmmm, kills dragons and humans... WIN WIN.



I feel like the elves have suffered more from dragorages than anyone, although that may just be because they've been around the longest. Still, that's no reason they might not have been thinking exactly as you say.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Its a lesson that one can never control the outcome when using magic.

Humans are very much about the spontaneous use of magic and suffer much more immediate consequences.



I suppose for every high magic ritual gone wrong there are a thousand humans that summon demons and get eaten by them, or worse.

My name is James and I can't stop thinking about dragons. These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.
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sfdragon
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2055 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  21:39:55  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
as for the descent.. the ilthiiri were already corrupt at that point.

innocent along with the guilty..... though like jhaamdath ; it would be hard to tell the difference .. propaganda and all that..

Edit: remember it is evil enough when good men do nothing

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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Edited by - sfdragon on 15 Mar 2017 21:40:30
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  23:02:59  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's what happens when you try and push the limits of what Elven High Magic is capable of, it tends to have unintended consequences. More regular uses of Elven High Magic likely safer, but you push it beyond what it was intended to do and you can't completely predict the consequences, except that they will be massive and epic.
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Markustay
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USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  23:27:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get the idea that the Elven ritual 'tapped into' the Sundering, which was a (over)God-engineered event that split the world into two (Abeir & Toril). The elves didn't do it, they merely utilized it.

And thats how I think Elven High Magic works. It taps into the phenomena known as 'The Butterfly Effect', by reaching into the past, and manipulating some small little thing, and then achieving the 'desired reults' in the current time. For example, prehaps there was a tiny pebble that 'fell to the left' during the original version of The Sundering, and then the Elves cast their ritual, and the pebble instead 'fell to the right', which seems trivial, but causes a cascade of secondary events that lead to the creation of Evermeet.

Two caveats: First, it works a LOT like wishes, except there is no limit to what you can achieve. that means the magic ('wish') will find the most expedient way of accomplishing the goal, even if that means going against the desired outcome. It follows the wordage precisely, but without malice - following only the intent but not the spirit of the request. And this is where things go HORRIBLY WRONG. Suppose Elves are having a really bad owlbear problem, and they decide to (stupidly) use High Magic - they cast their spell and say, "we don't want the owlbears here attacking us anymore". What happens is the spell reaches into the past, and kills the originally few elves who settled that village, and now the elves aren't there anymore to be attacked by the owlbears (so they basically 'wished' themselves out of existence). This is one of the two reasons why they won't use this type of magic unless very desperate.

Second, the law of Conservation of mass is a major player in magic. For every action, there is a reaction. "As above, so below" Yin & Yang. You cannot actually 'create an island' out of nothingness. This is a huge factor in the anime Full Metal Alchemist - something else must be lost (the law of equivalency of exchange). We've even seen this in FR canon, when the saurial wizard casts his spell to change places with Elminster (suggesting that suarials use a more fundamental, nature-based magic). So when they created Evermeet, they inadvertently destroyed Tintageer - they actually created the very situation which caused them to flee Faerie in the first place.

And that is why they so rarely use 'High Magic', especially to do 'grand things', because the outcomes are highly unpredictable (unless they work-out a set ritual for hundreds of years just to 'perfect it', which they usually don't have time to do when they are being threatened by something). Those very specific 'known High magic Rituals' have been handed down, and are considered fairly safe - the wording is precise enough to not allow the magic to get out of their control (usually). Also, the smaller affect you want to achieve, the less likely the 'ripples' from that affect will become catastrophic. the greater the desired results, the more likely a disaster becomes (like wishing an entire nation away).

And then there is the most powerful magic of all - The Balance. You can't fool it - it keeps track of everything with 'Karma'. And when you use magic to solve your problems in grandiose ways, karma becomes a vengeful bitch. The Seldarine drove the Dark Elves below ground, hoping to get rid of them, and instead, they endured, and became stronger, and even more evil... and vengeful. They created their own worst problem. Even the Gods can't get away from paying a price.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2017 17:01:11
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El Oso Gigante
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  01:07:46  Show Profile Send El Oso Gigante a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

when they created Evermeet, they inadvertently destroyed Tintageer - they actually created the very situation which caused them to flee Faerie in the first place.




Well, thanks for blowing my mind

My name is James and I can't stop thinking about dragons. These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6429 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  02:15:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't recall ever seeing a "Law of Equivalency or Exchange" in any Realmslore or in any D&D rulebooks. "Conservation of Magic" hardly seems to apply in the Realms in any event, lol - it's an abundant and seemingly "infinite" resource, magic and the Weave have been described in (old) FR canon as being like living, growing, self-replenishing things.

Indeed, elven magic and elven High Magic have created magical items and artifacts which actually grow in power as time passes. Moonblades are a famous example. Mythals might be another - although very few remain fully functional and intact after passing ages, though this has (so far) always been the result of interference or damage from external causes, not necessarily any "flaw" in mythal design and implementation.

I maintain the position that magical pollution in the Realms is somewhat analogous to radioactive waste in our world - it's toxic, dangerous, and basically takes "forever" to break down into harmless, inert components. Imagine how many cursed items must have been created across the Realms over the centuries, how many permanent spell zones/effects/miscasts/malfunctions, how many essentially useless hyper-specific magical items (like, say, a self-repairing +2 leather cuirass made for a CG adolescent-sized female centaur ranger who worships Sune and is born into a now-extinct lycanthropic bloodline). All of this stuff just "hangs around" for centuries or millennia or longer, it's non-biodegradable, it displaces (and even endangers) the (super)natural order of things in the environment.

Is "Elven High Magic Flawed or Troped?" - yes and yes. Elves are simply "better" than humans, more beautiful and graceful and smarter and faster and just superior at everything they do (because they live forever and have centuries to perfect even the most petty and banal things as exotic art forms). So of course elven High Magic is "better" than non-elven "normal" magic. And of course it's troped, elven superiority has always been given a nod in D&D (largely inspired by Tolkein) and has always been entrenched in the Realms setting - especially circa 3E onwards when all things elven (or dark elven) or fey became spectacularly popular.

[/Ayrik]
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moonbeast
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  09:37:42  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by El Oso Gigante
I suppose for every high magic ritual gone wrong there are a thousand humans that summon demons and get eaten by them, or worse.



Demons eating humans is quite normal, actually. As long as they don't mate with each other, it's all good.

Feed demon, good. Have sex, bad.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3546 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  09:49:30  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At first i wasnt keen on markustays idea about the reach of the magic extending back and forth in time but its appealing to me more now.

If faerie is a transitive mirror plane between the material and the positive energy plane then when the elves ripped a chunk of land off faerun and flung it across the sea, we know this did extend back and forth in time (the elves wanted this new homeland to last forever).

This caused a huge tidal wave and collapsed a lot of land off faeruns west coast (there are elven ruins like ascarle). Since it happened way back in the past that means the tidal wave in faerun had a mirror event in faerie that caused the destruction of the elven home in faerie.

I dont think all the high magics reach back and forth in time. I think it was just this single request "for a safe homeland for the elves isolated from all other lands and to last for all time" or something like that. It was the for all time that screwed them

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  11:10:48  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or the problem with High Magic is exactly the same as with most things the Elves do.
They tend toward moronic level of collective (reinforced) narcissism. Which puts them into the situation where their choice of approach usually boils down to one of the options we have repeatedly seen in canon:
A) Wishful thinking and terminal overconfidence.
B) Cowardice, incompetence and/or jealousy presented as wisdom.
C) Apostasy, i.e. an attempt to acquire more option by jumping the ship of fools.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

as for the descent.. the ilthiiri were already corrupt at that point.

And the Vyshaan?..
quote:
innocent along with the guilty..... though like jhaamdath ; it would be hard to tell the difference .. propaganda and all that..

Or, elves being elves.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  11:25:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

as for the descent.. the ilthiiri were already corrupt at that point.

innocent along with the guilty..... though like jhaamdath ; it would be hard to tell the difference .. propaganda and all that..

Edit: remember it is evil enough when good men do nothing



But Jhaamdath is one instance of the elves just being flat out stupid. They had cousins below the waters that they were going to churn to high heavens, and they didn't even think about them.

Mod edit: Slight edit to content. Check your PM.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Mar 2017 13:35:17
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3546 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  11:43:23  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or they had forgotten about the aquatic elves. Im pretty sure the aquatic elves in seros were as a result of a transformation ritual a long long time ago (a ritual that was repeated again at least once during the time of cormanthyr).

After only a century we can lose track of a lot of history so it is feasible that after a few millennia the elves simply no longer knew there were any elves beneath the waters

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  11:44:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

how many essentially useless hyper-specific magical items (like, say, a self-repairing +2 leather cuirass made for a CG adolescent-sized female centaur ranger who worships Sune and is born into a now-extinct lycanthropic bloodline).


Dude, I know she cheated on you with that centaur with the Mohawk... and that Zebrataur... and that hybsil... and that wemic... and that Dracon.... and that Rhinaur... and that Scorpionman..... but you can at least call her by her name, Diandra. And will you finally let go on how much that "tear away" leather bodice you made for her cost? We both know it was just so you could get a good look at her cleavage. I know, it sucks that she kept using it whenever she became a stripper in Bezantur. Look, why don't I take you out for a drink so you can forget her. I hear that "Hooves in Heat" down in that new Tharch of Peleveran in the Shaar has a new centaur, they say her name is Bambi, who can really put on a show. [:P}

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  11:46:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by El Oso Gigante
I suppose for every high magic ritual gone wrong there are a thousand humans that summon demons and get eaten by them, or worse.



Demons eating humans is quite normal, actually. As long as they don't mate with each other, it's all good.

Feed demon, good. Have sex, bad.



"Racist!!!!" shouts the cambion from offstage.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  17:23:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Ayrk - not really seeing Elves as 'superior' at anything, except perhaps believing in their own superiority (something all racist groups do).

They are a somewhat failed-offshoot of a failed creator Race (the Fey). I say 'somewhat failed' because it seems to be their 'thing (trope) to be 'in decline' on most worlds (sometimes referred to as 'the dwindling' when talking about actual fey). The Fey, the Sarrukh, the Batraachi, the Aearee - where are they now? Humans are the ONLY Creator race that have not only survived in huge numbers, but they pretty much run the entire Prime Material Plane.

I do like what you said about 'magical radiation', and I factor that in as well; for example, I feel that the 'Veil Between the Worlds' is thinner in the Taan (endless wastes) region, first because they fey used to be based in that region, and crossed between worlds all the time, and later the Imaskari were all over that region, doing the same (and likely based much of their magics on the earlier fey). The 'Veil' has been greatly weakened in that region, which makes it easier to move between planes/worlds, but also has the negative effect of making it easier for other thins to get in. So, much like what you proposed, all that magic being used heavily in one specific are has 'damaged' that part of the Weave. Ed has portrayed The weave as a physical place that you can 'be in', so my concept of 'the Veil' (borrowed form other fiction) is probably just how Ed sees The Weave. Its like a combination 'force field' and energy source (and now that I've said that, I'm thinking things like mythals, spell webs, mantles, and mythalar are all like mini-versions of a Weave). The problem is, these things are like 'apps' running on the GUI (The Weave), and the more you pile-on to it, the greater your chances of having the whole thing 'crash' (quite literally and spectacularly, in the case of the Netherese). The Weave itself - being very much like a GUI - is running 'on top of' the base source ode of the univese, and thats where all that 'old magic', 'heavy Magic', 'Primal/Eldritch Magic', etc, etc comes in. The Weave fails, and you just get the 'Cerulean Screen of Death', but if the underlying code (physics) ever got damaged, that would be the end of our universe as we know it.

Khelben: "The Weave seems to be running a bit slow today... Elminster must be downloading Drow porn off the demonweb again."

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

At first i wasnt keen on markustays idea about the reach of the magic extending back and forth in time but its appealing to me more now.
Its not really 'time magic' - I'm not big on that either. Its more of a 'probability' alterer - maybe even diverting the true timeline down a divergent path (an alternate reality), or perhaps even causing the divergence, which could even be causing a damaging 'dilution effect' on the multiverse (creating another 'alternate quantum reality' each time High Magic is used).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2017 17:40:34
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  18:23:14  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Kang the Conqueror is really an Elven High Mage?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 16 Mar 2017 18:23:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  21:11:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right.

And 'The Chronomancer' was really a disguised (as human Netherese) Elven High Mage called 'Immortus'.

And thus, all is right in the multiverse.

Well... almost... you see Toril's 'Kang' is actually a descendant of Manshoon... Oh, forget it!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2017 21:12:09
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  21:51:44  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Right.

And 'The Chronomancer' was really a disguised (as human Netherese) Elven High Mage called 'Immortus'.

And thus, all is right in the multiverse.

Well... almost... you see Toril's 'Kang' is actually a descendant of Manshoon... Oh, forget it!


The Imaskari did import a bunch of slaves from Earth. So Kang was influencing the High Imaskari.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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sfdragon
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2055 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2017 :  22:17:03  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah.. the vyshaan dogs......


not elf. but devil corrupted elves.

kill on sight. show no mercy.... well they didnt show any...


also they did not get altered by elven high magic. just an execution order known as Secret Order 66...... well its not much a secret though....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2017 :  07:54:17  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do not see Elven High Magic as somethig special they just perfected ritual magic to epic proportions (as did Imaskari and possibly others) so it is not flowed. They just missused it without enough concern about consequences it might bring. As nobody summoned a whole island before they did not anticipated those huge tidal weaves brought by it.

Just thought something - might it be that Ilighon was summoned similarily to create that flood of Jhaamdath??? It might explain the interest of Emerald Enclave in this small unimportant island...

I do not see drow Descent as working of elves but as work of their gods so no high magic there for me.
Dracorage might have been the strongest effect that they could brought up on that scale against their dragon overmasters because I am quite sure that they would have killed them at that time if able to.

Dark Disaster over High Moor seems to me more like Vyshaans released something beyond their control - possibly sarrukh battle magic they found.

I personaly belive that elven High Magic came from reading Nether Scrolls elves had for a long time and they just paint it special and unique and they also fabricated those stories about it changing time (sundering).
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3546 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2017 :  10:33:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I used to think the same way until last month when i came across a quote from Ed saying that the elves are part of the weave (and so are dragons).

I dont think high magic os exckusive to elves but to access it you have to become more attuned to the weave in some way. Then you can work much more oowerful rituals than you otherwise could

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2017 :  11:02:10  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I used to think the same way until last month when i came across a quote from Ed saying that the elves are part of the weave (and so are dragons).

I dont think high magic os exckusive to elves but to access it you have to become more attuned to the weave in some way. Then you can work much more oowerful rituals than you otherwise could



For me that smells too much of Tolkien's elves and I do not like to mix realms. In Faerun I do not see a reason for elves to be better than any other race. Their longevity is already enough for me (and I have toned down even that for historical reasons).
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2017 :  13:48:56  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The High Magic affecting the dragons.... well, considering the dragons will re-breed new dragons... and considering the other races will likely be the ones that the dragons feed upon.... hmmm, kills dragons and humans... WIN WIN.

Not likely. Back then, the elves didn't have a reason to consider humans a major threat, or for most part even worth notice. Now, easy-to-find masses of fast-breeding goblinoids - maybe, and the dragons do indeed feed on these when there are no dragons to protect them. But the Orcsgate was later, so presumably they only had to deal with fewer and somewhat less nasty ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I do not see Elven High Magic as somethig special they just perfected ritual magic to epic proportions (as did Imaskari and possibly others) so it is not flowed. They just missused it without enough concern about consequences it might bring. As nobody summoned a whole island before they did not anticipated those huge tidal weaves brought by it.

It by definition is elf-only.
It's just not the only form of "enhanced" magic in general - even on Toril there's at least dragonmagic, and beyond - psionic enchantments and what have you.
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Just thought something - might it be that Ilighon was summoned similarily to create that flood of Jhaamdath??? It might explain the interest of Emerald Enclave in this small unimportant island...

No, RTFM it's explicitly said to be due to selective magic-dead area proclaimed a sort of holy place.
quote:
I do not see drow Descent as working of elves but as work of their gods so no high magic there for me.

It was a work of elves - which is why the first response was an assassination campaign by the Vyshaan, who figured out they may well be the next.
quote:
I personaly belive that elven High Magic came from reading Nether Scrolls elves had for a long time and they just paint it special and unique and they also fabricated those stories about it changing time (sundering).

According to all and any lore, it is unique. Simply because it relies on the elves as magical creatures.
Nether Scrolls were explicitly said to give tips on High Magic too - but only after being transformed by said High Magic. Which implies it's not a collection of knowledge, but an interactive tool, of course.
Also, there are elves in other worlds, doing things like Shattering of Borka.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 27 Mar 2017 :  15:58:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The descent was not only something done by the gods (the Seldarine), but the elves themselves (and even some of the gods, in hindsight) were appalled by it. It was so mentally devastating that the Crown Wars came to a halt, and the elves "withdrew to reflect".
Imagine something happening on earth today SO DEVASTATING that all wars come to an end for awhile. Think of the psychological impact - the level of atrocity - that that must have triggered on the psyche to override inborn hatreds.

The drow were not only denied sunlight - something intrinsic to elven nature (they derive sustenance from it) - but they had to resort to CANNIBALISM those first few years. Its right in 2e's Drow of the Underdark.

I'm not sure if even Corellon understood the full repercussions his ban would have. You don't even see the evil gods doing things like that to their people (kill outright? YES. Eternal suffering until the end of time? Just NO.)

In fact, if the 'god War' had continued on for many years after the Sundering (as I suspect, like a 'cold war' with lots of smaller, 'localized' battles), I would imagine many ties were broken between the Seldarine and other 'good' deities after that.

You could just picture Oghma turning toward Corellon and saying, "Dude! WTF?!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Mar 2017 15:59:40
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