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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  03:34:34  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Itís funny how after all these years of studying and picking apart the Maztica Boxed Set, I still find little nuggets like the following...

quote:
The Trackless Sea is no longer quite so trackless, thanks to the recent voyages of exploration. The route between Helmsport and Murann now sees several dozen voyages a year.
Cordell and the Golden Legion made this crossing in some forty days, which is about typical for the Sword Coast to Maztica route. It takes about sixty days to sail back, due to the easterly current. A northerly route of return can save fifteen days on this trip, but
requires sailing dangerously close to the random teleporters surrounding Evermeet; most sailors prefer to invest the extra fifteen days to insure a safer passage.




This has me wondering about the amount of days it takes to get from spot to spot more specifically.

Has anyone ever compiled a list of travel times for sailing from location to location along the Sword Coast and elsewhere? It seems like it would be easy to calculate mathematically and compile, but the little tidbits that might affect such travel like in this blurb would make it possibly inaccurate.

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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  03:50:11  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had done Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate as 590 miles and 8 days. That did not take into account any currents. All my other travel times are for overland routes.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  04:35:38  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I had done Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate as 590 miles and 8 days. That did not take into account any currents. All my other travel times are for overland routes.



I feel like this is something I would spend good DMsGuild money on because it would directly affect and assist my DMíing.

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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

159 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  05:17:07  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I had done Waterdeep to Baldur's Gate as 590 miles and 8 days. That did not take into account any currents. All my other travel times are for overland routes.


Ooh, noted for my campaign. Perhaps they will avoid teleporting and just take the sea path toward candlekeep.

I wonder what the single longest reliably active trade route in the realms is..? Ooooooooh... a circumnavigation campaign..

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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

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462 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  06:17:25  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Water travel times on the Chionthar:

Elturel Scornubel 2 days
Scornubel Berdusk 3 days
Berdusk Iriaebor 3 days
Baldur's Gate Iriaebor 14 days



"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  10:36:19  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

Thank you for sharing that. Currents didn't even pop up in my head at all! I would love to see an oceanic conveyor map illustrating the flow of the ocean around the globe, etc. My god, the plots you could come up with by using magic to screw up the flow of the oceans waters as well, could be an enormously cool meta-plot point. :)

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  16:07:04  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Read this entire thread. It tells you how to estimate travel time. It DOES NOT give you distance tables. Those things are quite time-consuming to do. Have FUN!
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22855&SearchTerms=Knots
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  16:13:36  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a spreadsheet with distances between some cities. I could clean that up a bit and make it more usable. Would that be of interest to anyone?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  16:16:47  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I have a spreadsheet with distances between some cities. I could clean that up a bit and make it more usable. Would that be of interest to anyone?



Beyond. In all honesty, thatís something releasable.

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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  16:38:04  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I have a spreadsheet with distances between some cities. I could clean that up a bit and make it more usable. Would that be of interest to anyone?



Beyond. In all honesty, thatís something releasable.



I get distances using the FRIA so I am not sure how applicable that would be to the FR 5e topography. I have also found that there are slight "scaling" difference between the very large area maps and the regional maps in FRIA (distances on one are different from the other).

This all started as a means to figure out when followers would have to leave to get to where they were introduced so the number of locations is limited to mostly the Sword Coast and the Western Heartlands.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  17:27:12  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

Thank you greatly for that link! That is really great information. I know very little about nautical travel (in the real world, I am no fan of the ocean at all. I respect it from distance and leave it at that, haha.

Do you have any other interesting bits of information on nautical travel? Such as currents, or other mitigating variables that would impact travel times? This is just not anything that I ever thought about until I saw this scroll. This really has my mind running fast now! :)

Best regards,

Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  17:29:20  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,

Absolutely! It would even be cooler if there was a way to have that in a shareable drive with a link so the community could chip in, edit things, and get a very comprehensive list done in somewhat short order! :)

I mean, the FRIA is fantastic for doing distance determinations with the tool they have on it as well, per your acknowledgement :)

Best regards,


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Edited by - cpthero2 on 17 Sep 2020 17:30:23
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
535 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  19:20:00  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I thought FR5 The Savage Frontier had more on the subject, but there were only two water-based notes (p.7):
Coastal Route: Waterdeep to Luskan. Outbound to Luskan in 6 days. Inbound to Waterdeep in 8 days.
River Route: Zundbridge to Silverymoon (by small barge). Outbound to Ironford in 6 days, The Stone Bridge in 14, Yartar in 20, Nesmť in 30, and Silverymoon in 43 days. Inbound, reduce travel time by 1/3.

The North box set expands slightly on sea-routes, under Table 2: Caravel Travel Times by Sea in Days, although it disagrees slightly with FR5 (Waterdeep to Luskan, 7 days, return 8)

Also, keep in mind the changing geography of the Sword Coast (specifically the 3E tilting of the coast) and how that may affect older sources.


AJA
YAFRP
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  19:46:47  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe AJA,

Great point regarding the tilting issue. This is great to brainstorm this material on here before getting to work in a more directed way. Great stuff!

Best regards, and thanks as always,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  20:20:48  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe ElfBane,

Thank you greatly for that link! That is really great information. I know very little about nautical travel (in the real world, I am no fan of the ocean at all. I respect it from distance and leave it at that, haha.

Do you have any other interesting bits of information on nautical travel? Such as currents, or other mitigating variables that would impact travel times? This is just not anything that I ever thought about until I saw this scroll. This really has my mind running fast now! :)

Best regards,




I don't know the level of FR sailing tech. Are they at Roman tech, where if you lost the wind, you broke out the oars? Or is the FR at modern sailing tech, where when the wind is against you, you start tacking? Several folks have asked about 'currents'. Well, even if the FR is at Roman tech, then ANY experienced captain will know about "prevailing winds", and the times of the year, and direction, they prevail. So, currents being against you just wouldn't normally happen... the captain would not sail at those times, or he would use oars or tack.

Now, storms and pirates and whatnot should be treated as Random Encounters (solves that problem, don't it). The idea is to throw these things onto the DM. I provided the way to calculate sailing travel in that thread. That will give you the basic length of time it will take to get someplace. Does the DM want sailing to be easy or "rife with Adventure"? If the DM wants Adventure, then break out the Random Encounter tables and have at it.

BTW, I assume the Elves sailing tech is modern. I also assume that if any reasonably intelligent human sailor (especially a captain) ever sailed with an Elven ship or fleet, OR even was able to watch an Elven ship maneuver by tacking, that sailor will be able to figure it out, and probably be able to 'reverse engineer' the technique. Or he might chalk it up to 'elven magic'.

Fair winds, and following seas.

Edited by - ElfBane on 17 Sep 2020 20:22:42
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  22:27:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iíve come across some very interesting ďen routeĒ encounters in my time. One that sticks out was back in the Dungeon Magazine Savage Tide adventure path though I donít remember which issue. There was a 15 or so mile wide sargasso of sea weed and kelp that was sentient and spawned little sea weed monsters. It also entrapped dozens of ships who would have to hack their way free as hordes of the creatures came at them.

In the meantime one could explore the other derelict ships. I think this would be an ideal encounter for the trip from Faerun to Maztica or vice versa.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  22:52:52  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

quote:
I don't know the level of FR sailing tech. Are they at Roman tech, where if you lost the wind, you broke out the oars? Or is the FR at modern sailing tech, where when the wind is against you, you start tacking?


It appears that the FR technology on ships includes equivalent contemporary Great Ships from roughly the 1544 period. So, I would assume (please forgive my ignorance on this topic, but I really no very little about this topic) it is modern sailing technology.

quote:
Several folks have asked about 'currents'. Well, even if the FR is at Roman tech, then ANY experienced captain will know about "prevailing winds", and the times of the year, and direction, they prevail. So, currents being against you just wouldn't normally happen... the captain would not sail at those times, or he would use oars or tack.


That makes sense to me. My lack of knowledge on this subject though is why I've been using currents, but I get your point regarding the other stuff.

quote:
Now, storms and pirates and whatnot should be treated as Random Encounters (solves that problem, don't it). The idea is to throw these things onto the DM. I provided the way to calculate sailing travel in that thread. That will give you the basic length of time it will take to get someplace. Does the DM want sailing to be easy or "rife with Adventure"? If the DM wants Adventure, then break out the Random Encounter tables and have at it.


Speaking only for myself of course, when I build campaigns, I pre-roll the weather for the entire region of the sandbox campaign. So, if for example I were running something in the Shining South, I would pre-roll the different regions of each nation, i.e. Durpar, Veldorn, Var the Golden, Estagund, Luiren, Dambrath, the Shaar, Halruaa, Mulhorand, etc., for two years of weather, so that is just charted out. It helps with immersion, so players don't feel it is me randomly rolling for weather to be a problem or not be a problem. It is just always there, and then I change the sound through Syrinscape to the appropriate sound set.

quote:
BTW, I assume the Elves sailing tech is modern. I also assume that if any reasonably intelligent human sailor (especially a captain) ever sailed with an Elven ship or fleet, OR even was able to watch an Elven ship maneuver by tacking, that sailor will be able to figure it out, and probably be able to 'reverse engineer' the technique. Or he might chalk it up to 'elven magic'.


Yeah, I agree with you there. It would be picked up pretty dang fast. Of course, magic is the 'x' factor here with Control Weather magics, and other magic that can affect travel.

Best regards,

Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  23:16:01  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I didn't mention weather wizards because I thought we were trying to do this cheaply. But if you can afford weather wizards then there is no need for weather hazard avoidance. But we still worry about pirates and sea monsters!
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4485 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2020 :  23:34:57  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here offers some ship speeds : https://www.quora.com/How-fast-did-ancient-ships-travel?share=1

quote:
The local Felluka which was totally different from the one in Egypt stood very low in the water with a narrow beam because it was designed for speed to get high dignitaries from Malta to Sicily and back. The boat had a similar bow and stern which made it sea-kindly in all weathers especially with going downwind. This fast sailing vessel knows its origin in the Eastern Mediterranean, probably in the 16th century. It started out as a small merchant ship that could be adopted as a fighting unit. It was introduced in Malta with the galley squadron of the Order of St John in the late 16th century. It had an average speed of about four knots and in emergencies, it could sprint at six knots.
A Xebec was another form of a Mediterranean sailing ship that was used mostly for trading. It would have a long overhanging bowsprit and multiple masts. Xebec also refers to a small, fast vessel of the sixteenth to nineteenth centuries, used almost exclusively in the Mediterranean from Gibraltar to Egypt. Xebecs were similar to galleys used by Maltese and Moroccan corsairs and Barbary pirates having both lateen sails and oars for propulsion. The Xebec and the Felluka were chasing each other like cats and dogs and the speed of the Xebec was a little less than the Felluka. say five knots but with a good wind and full sail, it could go higher.


It is debatable if FR ships are this fast. Add maybe one hundred years on Earth the speeds got much faster.

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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2020 :  17:08:31  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a link to what I have so far. There are two tabs on the sheet. One is for Land Distances (via roads, not "as the bird flies"), the other is for Water Distances. I haven't started the Water distances yet.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/b20lxwfxxwuwgfr/FR_Travel_Distances.xlsx/file


"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
897 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2020 :  16:46:17  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Here is a link to what I have so far. There are two tabs on the sheet. One is for Land Distances (via roads, not "as the bird flies"), the other is for Water Distances. I haven't started the Water distances yet.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/b20lxwfxxwuwgfr/FR_Travel_Distances.xlsx/file





I really canít express how much I appreciate this. Itís going to make such a difference in cutting down research time when writing adventures.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2020 :  19:33:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

Fair point for sure regarding the wizards!

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2020 :  21:47:52  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Kentinal,

After digging around a bit, it does appear that naval vessels did have the capacity to move at such speeds. For example, in the 1990 novel, Ironhelm General Cordell of Amn, formed the Golden Legion and sailed to Maztica to conquer it, and indeed, did conquer much of it. One of the vessels documented in that novel was a carrack, which has a top speed of 8 knots, and an average speed of 4 - 5 knots over a 90 - 100 mile voyage. Additionally, caravel's were able to move at almost the exact same speed as well.

Of particular note was the Dhow sailing vessel type that were used in both Calimshan as well as Zakhara. They could sail at speeds of up to 22 knots! Truly remarkable!

Best regards,



NOTE 1: British vessels first used lead, and then copper, hull lining to avoid the accumulation of barnacles and other forms of life from the hull of a ship, which would slow the ship through friction. It is unknown if ship technology did or did not utilize this in the Realms. My thoughts is that Gondan creators would have thought of this, but that is just an assumption with no lore to back that up.

NOTE 2: Distances recorded from ancient texts by transit times without stop between two points, and speed deduced on average from that with strong, moderate, mild, and no winds at varying times.


Citations:
http://www.christopher-columbus.eu/columbus-ships.htm#:~:text=Top%20speed%20for%20the%20vessels,the%20Pinta%20was%20the%20fastest.

https://www-labs.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/History/Ships_Discovery/#:~:text=Top%20speed%20for%20a%20caravel,100%20miles%20in%20a%20day.&text=In%201492%20Colombus s%20used%202,as%20his%20flagship%20%5BMore%5D.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Caravel

https://qz.com/1193455/the-speed-of-europes-18th-century-sailing-ships-is-revamping-historians-view-of-the-industrial-revolution/ NOTE 1

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships .html NOTE 2

https://www.boatbuilding.xyz/science-of-sailing/the-age-of-exploration-carrack-and-caravel.html

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Dhows-a-thing-of-the-past-and-the-future/-98861#:~:text= Our%20dhows%20are%20very%20fast,keels%20like%20modern%20racing%20yachts.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arabian_Adventures

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sandstorm_ novel




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2020 :  21:50:23  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,

I wish to agree with Senior Scribe Seethyr as well. Thank you for the work!

Best regards,




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
462 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  16:15:03  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seethyr, is there a specific city-city route or area you are looking for? I have enough points in there now for the Sword Coast that most distances just require adding the component distances to get the total distance.

Edit: I also have a newer version of the spreadsheet with more data that I will upload this week.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 21 Sep 2020 16:17:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Sep 2020 :  18:53:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


NOTE 1: British vessels first used lead, and then copper, hull lining to avoid the accumulation of barnacles and other forms of life from the hull of a ship, which would slow the ship through friction. It is unknown if ship technology did or did not utilize this in the Realms. My thoughts is that Gondan creators would have thought of this, but that is just an assumption with no lore to back that up.



Just noting this because I see people doing it all the time. One thing that people don't consider is how much the differences in the world affects the problems that people would have in said world. For instance, about a month or so back, we were talking about castles, and I was pointing out how some basic magics or creatures just destroy them. They can be a real source of inspiration and add fun to a campaign rather than making it feel like research. In this instance, while I can see gondsmen possibly researching better hulls, I don't see barnacle removal on Toril being anywhere NEAR the same problem as it was in our world wherein the ship had to be put in drydock or somesuch. There's a ton of options that didn't exist in our real world.

You could hire a mage to clear them with an unseen servant because the servant won't drown.
You could use a magic item that allows water breathing with a crew at the docks who cleans hulls all the time without having to pull the ship out of the water.
You could hire some merfolk to clean your ship's bottom for some surface gear that they'd simply have problems getting.
You could send down skeletons to clean the hull.
Your ship's mage could summon some underwater humanoid to clean the hull.
You could hire a mage who has some construct that won't die to clean the hull.

I mention these types of things because let's face it, we're here to make a fantasy world come to life. Wouldn't you be interested to read that there's a "skeletal barnacle cleaning company" in Waterdeep? Wouldn't you be even more interested to hear that the owner of said company is up for murder charges because one of his skeletons is accused of killing someone, and the owner of said company has come to your party of adventurers to find out what REALLY happened? Oh wait, was there a secret priest of Umberlee down at the docks who wanted that person killed?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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