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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  14:53:29  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi. So I was trying to find more information on Orcs/Half-Orcs. I found some weird threads like that
I also found some info from Ed himself which states:
quote:
a few orcs who hunger for the gentleness and sophistication of “civilized” races, and who sneak up on dancers venerating Eilistraee or elves dancing in forest glades just to watch, and weep at the beauty they cannot join. A VERY rare few have managed to join it.


So clearly some Orcs do like civilization. Can an Orc move to a big city like Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate?

Also it seems like treatment of "evil" races such as Half-Orcs, Drow and Tieflings differs a lot by edition or even by writer. Sometimes they are "kill on sight" and sometimes prejudices are barely an inconvenience.

Edited by - Alexander Clark on 29 Jan 2019 14:54:15

Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
624 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  15:50:08  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think it depends on the city. It depends on each individual within the city. Acceptance for all 'non-evil' races has been pretty clear and consistent through the additions for a few of the major cities: Silverymoon and Waterdeep being the two I'm most familiar with.

Even giants are known in Waterdeep.

In Silverymoon, the wizard mythal prevents the entry of certain evil races.

I suppose even if an orc were allowed entry into the city, the problem would be with all the other people in that city who have lost their homes and families to the orc hordes.

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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  16:00:55  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

I don't think it depends on the city. It depends on each individual within the city. Acceptance for all 'non-evil' races has been pretty clear and consistent through the additions for a few of the major cities: Silverymoon and Waterdeep being the two I'm most familiar with.

Even giants are known in Waterdeep.

In Silverymoon, the wizard mythal prevents the entry of certain evil races.

I suppose even if an orc were allowed entry into the city, the problem would be with all the other people in that city who have lost their homes and families to the orc hordes.




Well, some people might dislike an Orc but I am more worried about "legal rights." For example can an Orc buy a house in Waterdeep? Will an Orc get some kind of protection by city guards if people who really, really dislike Orcs try to lynch him?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  20:17:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a post on drow in Waterdeep, Ed said

quote:
non-drow Underdark inhabitants aren't specifically banned from the city, and do (usually by night, and heavily cloaked/hooded/disguised) trade in Dock Ward and to a lesser extent in South Ward, Castle Ward, and Trades Ward, and congregate in the Crawling Spider as part of this doing deals or to celebrate afterwards. Innkeepers, tavernmasters, and shopkeepers south of an east-west line drawn through Castle Waterdeep generally accept guests/clients of all sorts who behave, don't threaten, and pay (some coin up front is a rule in ALL cases of masters' unease or mistrust of guests, and many Dock Warders demand it of ALL clientele, even known Waterdhavian nobles out on a lark); those north of there will often turn away heavily-covered visitors who refuse to show themselves.


It's not exactly buying property, but it does partially cover the question.

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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  21:18:38  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not exactly buying property, but it does partially cover the question.


Thanks. BTW are there any canon examples of an Orc living in a city?
I think Neverwinter MMO has some, but videogames are not the best source of lore AFAIK.

Edited by - Alexander Clark on 29 Jan 2019 21:22:40
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31827 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  22:14:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not exactly buying property, but it does partially cover the question.


Thanks. BTW are there any canon examples of an Orc living in a city?
I think Neverwinter MMO has some, but videogames are not the best source of lore AFAIK.



Zhentil Keep had orcs that were part of its military and were active within the city. I don't recall it explicitly saying they lived there, but it's a reasonable assumption. (Though it could also be assumed they lived outside the city but close enough to enter/leave on a daily basis)

Off the top of my head, I don't recall other references to orcs living in cities, but there's a lot of random stuff rattling around up there and I could easily be forgetting something.

I think the orcs that became the ondonti had previously lived in Myth Ondath.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jan 2019 22:16:54
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Bulak
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Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  13:06:22  Show Profile Send Bulak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When Neverwinter was still recovering from the Spellplague and other disasters, a group of orcs moved into the River District. A tavern in the district served as 'neutral ground for negotiations between Lord Neverember and Vansi of the orcs, to whom the rest of the district belongs.' (A quote from the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.)
There's more info on the orcs and their behavior in the adventure Shards of Selūne, Dungeon magazine 193. The orcs charge toll to non-orcs to pass a bridge between the River District and the rest of the city. Which suggests non-orcs actually do so.
So while the orcs may only be 'tolerated' because there are more dangerous things to worry about, there is at least some peaceful contact between them and the other inhabitants of the city.

A line in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide suggests the orcs eventually left the city on their own account:
'Now, the orcs that once menaced the city have moved east to join their brethren in being crushed by the dwarves.'

Not really what you're looking for, perhaps, but I guess it shows civilized races may put up with 'unfriendly neighbours' in unusual circumstances.
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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  14:40:14  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bulak

When Neverwinter was still recovering from the Spellplague and other disasters, a group of orcs moved into the River District. A tavern in the district served as 'neutral ground for negotiations between Lord Neverember and Vansi of the orcs, to whom the rest of the district belongs.' (A quote from the 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting.)

Nice, thanks. I noticed the tavern in Neverwinter MMO, but I did not know it was book level canon. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the orcs that became the ondonti had previously lived in Myth Ondath.


Thanks, I did not know about Ondonti.

Didn't the realms become more tolerant over time? Some of the sources you guys link seem to indicate that people really dislike Drow, however some sages on other threads mention Drow living in Waterdeep and even Evermeet.
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

So trying to get more information on surface dwelling Drow particularly those who follow the dark dancer. Resources seem scarce on any solid information so far I found that they have an embassy in Evermeet but seem to occupy about 47% of the population of Cormanthyr in the current year.


quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
In Raven's Bluff, in Evermeet, in Cormanthor (Elventree, for example), and they are currently doing that in Waterdeep, as a new Eilistraeean community and temple is forming there, sponsored by the Harpers.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3008 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  14:51:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As others said, it depends heavily on the region. For example, there are some orcs who settled in Thesk and coexisted with humans there, so an orc would have chances to settle in a city in that region.

The same is for drow, as the followers of Eilistraee actively work to build friendships with other races, but it doesn't go always well (in Raven's Bluff, they received a lot of hostilities; in Evermeet, their embassy never went anywhere; in Waterdeep they're building a temple, but that's because they're supported by the Harpers, because Laeral's--the Open Lord's--sister was the high priestess of Eilistraee, and even the goddess herself recently appeared near Waterdeep).

That said, I think that the Realms did indeed become more tolerant over time, in the more cosmopolitan places (and in regions where people aren't constantly at war with those races) that is. I dobut that an orc or a drow wouldn't be cause of alarm in your next random rural village.

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jan 2019 14:52:42
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Alexander Clark
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Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  15:52:06  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Irennan. Nice to see you are still active on this here forum.

Would Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep be more tolerant towards Orcs/Half-Orcs?

Edited by - Alexander Clark on 30 Jan 2019 15:52:50
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sleyvas
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Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  16:05:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The orcs from Zhentil Keep during Azoun's Crusade moved into Thesk and were a bit more civilized. Orcs are also fairly common in all cities of Thay as mercenaries and militia (including special races of orcs engineered by the red wizards).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  20:33:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark

Thanks, Irennan. Nice to see you are still active on this here forum.

Would Baldur's Gate or Waterdeep be more tolerant towards Orcs/Half-Orcs?




Half-orcs would be far more readily tolerated than full orcs. I'd rely on the Ed quote I shared, for how I'd treat orcs in Waterdeep.

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Gelcur
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309 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  01:39:42  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So the old City System TSR1040 has Orc and Ogre listed on "encounter" tables for Castle and Southern Ward as porters, a person who carries stuff around for another. And 3E Campaign Setting has 2% of its populace listed as Half-Orc.

TSR1090, City of Splendors, says:
quote:
Beings of almost all races may be seen in the city, too. A
typical Waterdhavian would react with hostility and fear
only to a drow, an illithid, nonhuman natives of the Lower
Planes, and, of course, "monsters" such as beholders and
dragons; with all others, it's generally "business as usual."

Baldur's Gate is likely as tolerant or slightly more so.

Silverymoon I think was known as most tolerant of all, if I remember correctly a small number of Drow/Orc lived there openly. Then you of course have a place like Skullport where everyone is welcomed.

Scornubel might represent the general Realms attitude from Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast:
quote:
It's (The Jaded Unicorn) certainly
the only place in town that welcomes
(well, tolerates) orcs and half-orcs
among its clientele

You need to remember most places in the Realms have a bad history with Orcs, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, etc. And many areas still face raids on towns/cities as well as dangers in the wild from these groups. Many towns are named after famous Orc slayers and some townfolk often have the reputation of downing Orcs.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  16:48:45  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Silverymoon I think was known as most tolerant of all, if I remember correctly a small number of Drow/Orc lived there openly. Then you of course have a place like Skullport where everyone is welcomed.


Thanks, that's interesting. I think I read about Silverymoon being fine with both Drow and Half-Elves (though I am still confused why anyone who isn't the Eldreth Veluuthra would have issues with Half-Elves), but I don't remember finding anything about Orcs.
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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

309 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  20:19:59  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I may have been wrong on Silverymoon, when looking for a reference to Orcs living there I found this in TSR1142 The North:
quote:
Northerners have a distinct dislike for anything even vaguely
orcish, and only the most human-looking half-orc can pass
safely among northern folk.

Then looking up the 3E populace numbers for Silverymoon Half-Orc is so small that it isn't listed, compared to the Waterdeep 2%, Baldur's Gate never got a population treatment in 3E.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Alexander Clark
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55 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  20:25:20  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Then looking up the 3E populace numbers for Silverymoon Half-Orc is so small that it isn't listed, compared to the Waterdeep 2%, Baldur's Gate never got a population treatment in 3E.


Thanks! What book are those numbers from?
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1767 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  02:48:55  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The same is for drow,

Not quite. The drow being "sexy", in several ways, is a major difference.
"Dark Mirror", and all.
quote:
as the followers of Eilistraee actively work to build friendships with other races, but it doesn't go always well (in Raven's Bluff, they received a lot of hostilities;

IIRC they a bunch of drunks instigated by a follower of Wastri harassed them without real bloodshed, and one of priests on the Circle was a bit too loud about not letting them too close?
That's not a lot.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  03:28:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was an actual attack to the shrine, in which food and clothing that the Eilistraeens had gathered to help the Ravenians was destroyed, and several watchmen injured. Afterward, the worship of Eilistraee was banned in the city by the Clerical Circle. When the Eilistraeens went to celebrate their rituals outside the city, another mob went after them.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dark_Dancer#History

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1494 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  09:52:01  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
(...) I think I read about Silverymoon being fine with both Drow and Half-Elves (...)


Maybe the text mentioned "drow elves and half-elves", meaning half-drow.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Alexander Clark
Seeker

55 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  19:04:22  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Maybe the text mentioned "drow elves and half-elves", meaning half-drow.


Thanks, that makes sense. Half-Drow are so rare I tend to forget they exist. :)
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