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 The "Tears" of Selune containing ice asteroids
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  01:04:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I was writing another thread, I got a picture in my head of "the Ice Moon Zotha" long ago being in the sky and it having at its "center" a portal to the elemental plane of water. Slowly, said water would seep into the world, freeze in space. Maybe long ago, this portal was bigger, and now it only makes small ice asteroids about the size of a man before they break away and float free (or maybe it opens sporadically, producing the same result). Now, there might be people that come along with spelljammers and latch onto the small "icebergs in space" and haul them to the moon. Since there aren't "snowcapped mountains" on the moon, but rather molten magma caps they may need to do this in order to periodically refill their water that might evaporate away or get hauled off by disembarking spelljammers. Sound like a good idea?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Markustay
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  01:17:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds interesting.

I don't see how that will affect 99.99999% of FR campaigns, but thats what we're here for, right?

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AuldDragon
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  02:46:17  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wildspace isn't necessarily cold in such a manner that all water would freeze. Ships don't need to take any special precautions against cold when traveling in the basic Spelljammer rules, and there aren't any statements in the material that small objects get cold/freeze over time, either by default or in Realmspace. If there is an extradimensional portal adding ice to the wildspace of a sphere, it's probably because it is a portal to Paraelemental Ice, rather than a portal to Paraelemental Water and the water is freezing. An ice moon would basically just be a water world that was colder than normal; chunks that broke off would stay cold/frozen. There are probably a few such in the Tears of Selune, as there are probably a few small air worlds, and possibly some dim fire worlds (nothing bright enough to be noticeable as brighter than normal from Toril, though). Most are certainly earth worlds, though.

Different rules apply in different spheres, though; for example, Krynnspace is notably cold compared to other spheres.

Also, even though the mountain tops of Selune are molten, the rest of the world is cool, typically between 40F and 60F (it rarely gets to freezing). Worrying about evaporation of the existing water doesn't seem to be an issue.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  03:56:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Wildspace isn't necessarily cold in such a manner that all water would freeze. Ships don't need to take any special precautions against cold when traveling in the basic Spelljammer rules, and there aren't any statements in the material that small objects get cold/freeze over time, either by default or in Realmspace. If there is an extradimensional portal adding ice to the wildspace of a sphere, it's probably because it is a portal to Paraelemental Ice, rather than a portal to Paraelemental Water and the water is freezing. An ice moon would basically just be a water world that was colder than normal; chunks that broke off would stay cold/frozen. There are probably a few such in the Tears of Selune, as there are probably a few small air worlds, and possibly some dim fire worlds (nothing bright enough to be noticeable as brighter than normal from Toril, though). Most are certainly earth worlds, though.

Different rules apply in different spheres, though; for example, Krynnspace is notably cold compared to other spheres.

Also, even though the mountain tops of Selune are molten, the rest of the world is cool, typically between 40F and 60F (it rarely gets to freezing). Worrying about evaporation of the existing water doesn't seem to be an issue.

Jeff



Good point, somewhere in realmspace it says that this is one of the hotter spheres. Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space. Still, the idea of a link to the elemental plane of ice does make sense, and maybe the chunks build up during the 15 day "night" and then break loose. For some reason, I like the idea of a space ice escort service, maybe they deliver to the various inhabitants of the tears and to the docks on Leira.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  05:00:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space.



Caer Windlauer, IIRC. Another of the reasons I tend to ignore anything specifically related to Toril, in that supplement -- because nowhere in Realmslore is that disappearing castle or that group of Moonshae assassins mentioned.

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Wrigley
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  09:45:33  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cannot help myself but to be still amused by effort given to explain Toril's crystal sphere with RW physics. In the world where sun could be destroyed, moons hurled toward planet and mass could be generated out of nowhere... In this space theory of gravity could not work, thus planets make no sense too (they would fall apart) so why don't you just state "it's magic" and start from there instead of using it for any inconsistency that rises up.

So for this example - Is there elemental gate in Tears of Selune? - could be. Is there any reason for it to be there? - who summoned it? How does anybody know?
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  15:12:01  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Good point, somewhere in realmspace it says that this is one of the hotter spheres. Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space. Still, the idea of a link to the elemental plane of ice does make sense, and maybe the chunks build up during the 15 day "night" and then break loose. For some reason, I like the idea of a space ice escort service, maybe they deliver to the various inhabitants of the tears and to the docks on Leira.



Ice transportation would be necessary on some asteroids, like Bral (it canonically has small ice asteroids dropped into the lake occasionally to replenish the water). Dragon Rock in the Tears, at 10 miles long, *might* be large enough to have water replaced through rain. Selune itself is large enough to have a healthy ecology (and does in canon), but if you wanted to make it not so for campaign reasons, bringing in ice from wildspace would be doable, but they either wouldn't be that large (major helms can only move the equivalent volume of a cube 65 feet to a side) or be very slow. It would probably mean civilization would amount to spread out settlements clustered around lakes that the ice could be dropped into.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  16:07:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I cannot help myself but to be still amused by effort given to explain Toril's crystal sphere with RW physics. In the world where sun could be destroyed, moons hurled toward planet and mass could be generated out of nowhere... In this space theory of gravity could not work, thus planets make no sense too (they would fall apart) so why don't you just state "it's magic" and start from there instead of using it for any inconsistency that rises up.




Why does the fact that objects can be affected by another force mean there is no gravity?

Also, I'll point out that it's been stated from the beginning -- all the way back to the OGB -- that physics is a little different in the Realms.

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  17:42:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use the most excellent Well World series of novels to explain how magic works within the physics of the 'real' universe. I'm probably biased, because my first GM (you only have 'DMs' in D&D) used that premise, which got me to read the books, and is why I try to relate everything in FR/D&D/fantasy back to real-world sciences.

Because that novel series proves its 100% doable.

The scary part is, when you really think about it (whats going on in those novels), you realize that its not only possible for 'magic' to actually exist, its highly probable. And all the advances we've made in physics in the past 30 years or so (since those books were written) only proves this point further. Even one of the staples of D&D - Vancian magic - is based on super-science, rather than mysticism. You are simply manipulating the primal forces of the universe. We can do some of this now. What happens in a few centuries, when we truly know how to manipulate these 'primal forces' (what the Well World novels calls 'primal Energy' - a type of proto-energy that existed before the universe came into being)?

Looking at the surface of distant planets, or even other parts of the world? Flying? Traveling through space? Creating objects out of nothing (I can think of at least three ways we can achieve that with our current tech)? Projecting an image of ourselves somewhere that can interact with others? All of these things were once thought of as 'magic'. That word doesn't mean what you think it means, it means "something we just haven't figured out how to do... yet".

Now imagine a race of beings from another star system, that is thousands of years ahead of us - you don't think things they could do would look like 'magic' to us? Science isn't about 'following the rules', science is about figuring how to break them. Magic & Physics CAN co-exists, when one realizes that magic is NOT subset of physics, but rather, physics is a subset of 'magic'. So whats 'The Weave'? Its just a localized set of rules layered on TOP of - not under - the normal rules of the universe. The universe is 'Windows', and those magic spells are apps that can directly interact with the 'hardware'.

As an aside - and to steer this post somewhat back on topic - Gray Richardson and I came up with a very plausible way to intertwine RW 'space' and the D&D version together - something that I had thought impossible when I first read the SJ material (which is probably why I found SJ so distasteful - it was the first bit of D&D lore I couldn't fit into my 'cosmic model' of everything). You see, you don't really 'enter space' when you use Spelljamming tech - you enter the Border Ethereal. A Spelljamming ship is actually a planesjammer, but with a very specific plane it can interact with (and this happens automatically). As you pass out of the atmosphere, the Helm causes you to phase-into the Ethereal. Wildspace IS the 'Border Ethereal' - its that plane when you go off-world. the 'heavenly bodies' you interact with are the Ethereal versions, NOT the real (Prime Material) ones.*

And when you leave the Crystal Sphere and enter the phlogiston, you've actually entered the Deep Ethereal - that is how it looks/behaves that far away from a singularity (outside a Crystal Sphere, in SJ parlance). This is the only plausible way that RW 'spaceships' can enter our fantasy worlds (and they DO - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is all about that, and the rest of that MASSIVE world-ship is stranded in Greyspace). Somehow, an accident happens (in the words of Spock, "a spatial anomaly") and the 'real' (Scify) spaceship enters Ethereal Space. Think of it as a wormhole that allows you to enter another Quantum reality, which is 'layered' on top of our own (SEE? RW science!)

So basically, Hyperspace/'Warp' is nothing more than super-science finding a way to enter the Phlogiston and utilize it to 'shorten' the distance between worlds (because in RW physics, things CANNOT travel 'faster than light' within the Einsteinian {real} universe, and thus, Scify has created this concept of entering a 'higher plane' to break this rule - its precisely the same thing as magic!

Hyperspace IS the Ethereal Plane IS the Phlogiston.



*Once again, using Michael Moorcock's Mittlemarch concept, I picture the ethereal plane being a 'border area' that leads to other planes, but also has its own inhabitants, and the 'ethereal' versions of everything are layered over the RW ones (so if you were on the moon, and talking to some 'Moonies', you could focus past them, and see the real moon 'below the surface' of the illusion). This also helps explain Selūne (and other planets, etc) - all of that is really going on in the border ethereal, or 'Mittlemarch'. Its not so much of an illusion, as it is a deception using the planer nature of Spelljamming.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2017 23:27:30
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  22:36:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer the Dresdenverse approach of regarding magic as just another form of energy. It's just that it takes a different approach to using that energy. It still follows the laws of physics, but how it conforms to the laws of physics isn't always immediately obvious.

Keep in mind, I'm a huge fan of the idea that even in the real world, there's a hell of a lot we don't know. I think there are a lot of things that we don't even know about the existence of, much less have even the beginnings of an explanation for.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Mar 2017 22:36:53
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  18:29:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space.



Caer Windlauer, IIRC. Another of the reasons I tend to ignore anything specifically related to Toril, in that supplement -- because nowhere in Realmslore is that disappearing castle or that group of Moonshae assassins mentioned.



No, its just called "the citadel" and its a 100 foot tall citadel with an air envelope, growing grasses and bushes, and ravens that reproduce there. However, its also filled with small brown puddings (the kind that eat through leather and wood, not metal) that survive off the ravens and plants. Given the physical size, I'd probably have it be some storm giant castle that was somehow forced into space and its inhabitants killed by the puddings (and given that puddings reproduce when hit by lightning, having some storm giants who perform some stupid actions fits). Hell, maybe they even had the puddings as some kind of trash disposal system, got in a fight with invaders, and things just went wrong.... for both sides... when the puddings turned on them. Hell, maybe there's even some kind of helm on the asteroid. Hmmm, maybe I can use this place somehow without destroying its functionality as a place for adventurers to go. Hmmmm, Ghaunadar worshipping drow as invaders... .

You know, when I first read about it, I was thinking "this place would be hell to recover with a ton of puddings". I was even picturing some poor soul drinking the water and swallowing a small amount of brown pudding that then starts eating its way out of him. Then it hit me... puddings are immune to cold, acid, poison... reproduce by lightning... but damned if a fire elemental couldn't clear this place right up (of course, it would burn down the castle).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Mar 2017 19:06:22
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  18:37:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Good point, somewhere in realmspace it says that this is one of the hotter spheres. Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space. Still, the idea of a link to the elemental plane of ice does make sense, and maybe the chunks build up during the 15 day "night" and then break loose. For some reason, I like the idea of a space ice escort service, maybe they deliver to the various inhabitants of the tears and to the docks on Leira.



Ice transportation would be necessary on some asteroids, like Bral (it canonically has small ice asteroids dropped into the lake occasionally to replenish the water). Dragon Rock in the Tears, at 10 miles long, *might* be large enough to have water replaced through rain. Selune itself is large enough to have a healthy ecology (and does in canon), but if you wanted to make it not so for campaign reasons, bringing in ice from wildspace would be doable, but they either wouldn't be that large (major helms can only move the equivalent volume of a cube 65 feet to a side) or be very slow. It would probably mean civilization would amount to spread out settlements clustered around lakes that the ice could be dropped into.

Jeff



Actually, that's kind of what I pictured (settlements clustered around their resources) amongst the tears. Having them move 50 ft cubes sounds about right (the equivalent size of say 3 houses). That way there's this constant need and also so that for the most part people on the surface of Toril wouldn't be able to SEE these ice asteroids being moved around. Though Leira's atmosphere might be able to maintain its water, the number of ships landing, taking on water stores, and leaving might encourage this type of traffic. It could make for an interesting thing if periodically the ice haulers have to bring in adventurers to clear away something that came through the portal, or if some other creatures (like say the neogi) decide that they should "own" all of this ice for themselves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  19:04:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, after I typed this, I saw that there's a castle amongst the tears with a cauldron pouring water that eventually pours off into space.



Caer Windlauer, IIRC. Another of the reasons I tend to ignore anything specifically related to Toril, in that supplement -- because nowhere in Realmslore is that disappearing castle or that group of Moonshae assassins mentioned.



No, its just called "the citadel" and its a 100 foot tall citadel with an air envelope, growing grasses and bushes, and ravens that reproduce there. However, its also filled with small brown puddings (the kind that eat through leather and wood, not metal) that survive off the ravens and plants. Given the physical size, I'd probably have it be some storm giant castle that was somehow forced into space and its inhabitants killed by the puddings (and given that puddings reproduce when hit by lightning, having some storm giants who perform some stupid actions fits). Hell, maybe they even had the puddings as some kind of trash disposal system, got in a fight with invaders, and things just went wrong.... for both sides... when the puddings turned on them. Hell, maybe there's even some kind of helm on the asteroid. Hmmm, maybe I can use this place somehow without destroying its functionality as a place for adventurers to go. Hmmmm, Ghaunadar worshipping drow as invaders... .



My mistake. My dislike for Caer Windlauer is strong enough that I forgot about the other floating castle in space.

And honestly, it's not Caer Windlauer that bothers me, it's the ridiculous backstory. It's not quite Madcoil bad, but it's weak, and coupled the the fact that the backstory should be referenced in Realmslore but isn't, I've always hated it.

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Markustay
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  23:24:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the other hand, Wooly, they actually explain that (I used to think like you, but I recently had to read that bit again, in its entirety).

Part of the wishes that placed it there also made people forget all about it.

Of course, that still doesn't explain the (new?) assassins that were also created as an outgrowth of that, and why there is no mention of them (unless they are VERY local).

It does mention precisely where it was from, which I hadn't noted before - that was a nice touch.

And if you count 'Elminster's Hideout', that would make THREE citadels in Realmspace.

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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2017 23:25:09
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  00:37:38  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As an aside - and to steer this post somewhat back on topic - Gray Richardson and I came up with a very plausible way to intertwine RW 'space' and the D&D version together - something that I had thought impossible when I first read the SJ material (which is probably why I found SJ so distasteful - it was the first bit of D&D lore I couldn't fit into my 'cosmic model' of everything). You see, you don't really 'enter space' when you use Spelljamming tech - you enter the Border Ethereal. A Spelljamming ship is actually a planesjammer, but with a very specific plane it can interact with (and this happens automatically). As you pass out of the atmosphere, the Helm causes you to phase-into the Ethereal. Wildspace IS the 'Border Ethereal' - its that plane when you go off-world. the 'heavenly bodies' you interact with are the Ethereal versions, NOT the real (Prime Material) ones.*

And when you leave the Crystal Sphere and enter the phlogiston, you've actually entered the Deep Ethereal - that is how it looks/behaves that far away from a singularity (outside a Crystal Sphere, in SJ parlance). This is the only plausible way that RW 'spaceships' can enter our fantasy worlds (and they DO - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is all about that, and the rest of that MASSIVE world-ship is stranded in Greyspace). Somehow, an accident happens (in the words of Spock, "a spatial anomaly") and the 'real' (Scify) spaceship enters Ethereal Space. Think of it as a wormhole that allows you to enter another Quantum reality, which is 'layered' on top of our own (SEE? RW science!)

So basically, Hyperspace/'Warp' is nothing more than super-science finding a way to enter the Phlogiston and utilize it to 'shorten' the distance between worlds (because in RW physics, things CANNOT travel 'faster than light' within the Einsteinian {real} universe, and thus, Scify has created this concept of entering a 'higher plane' to break this rule - its precisely the same thing as magic!

Hyperspace IS the Ethereal Plane IS the Phlogiston.


I actually quite like this explanation on an initial read. At the moment I'm reading the SJ material (for the 1st time), and I'm finding the Wildspace vs "RW space" difference a little too large for my liking. This kind of explanation could potentially really iron out the trouble I have with it, and turn Spelljammers from spaceships to ships able to traverse the Ethereal - albeit in a different way to the more traditional.

Edit:
Replied to this more fully over in the Cosmology Theories thread, because it's a bit off-topic for here.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Mar 2017 02:48:36
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  01:34:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, Wooly, they actually explain that (I used to think like you, but I recently had to read that bit again, in its entirety).

Part of the wishes that placed it there also made people forget all about it.


I've actually read that section twice today. Making people forget about it is not mentioned.

And even if there was a forgetting effect in place, someone would eventually look at a map and think to wonder why there was a bay where the map showed a castle.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Of course, that still doesn't explain the (new?) assassins that were also created as an outgrowth of that, and why there is no mention of them (unless they are VERY local).


That's a major one for me.

And unless his family members were already evil and murderous, then this wish changed their alignments and skillsets. It would have been far easier to either kill them (can't be scared if you're dead!) or take them along.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And if you count 'Elminster's Hideout', that would make THREE citadels in Realmspace.



One could quibble about the definition of a citadel, but it's easier to just agree on this one.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  01:35:32  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I cannot help myself but to be still amused by effort given to explain Toril's crystal sphere with RW physics. In the world where sun could be destroyed, moons hurled toward planet and mass could be generated out of nowhere... In this space theory of gravity could not work, thus planets make no sense too (they would fall apart) so why don't you just state "it's magic" and start from there instead of using it for any inconsistency that rises up.
Why does the fact that objects can be affected by another force mean there is no gravity?

Also, I'll point out that it's been stated from the beginning -- all the way back to the OGB -- that physics is a little different in the Realms.
Agreed with both - the physics which apply to our world/universe are not the same as the physics which apply in the Realms (or Realmspace). In the Realms (and Realmspace) "it's magic" is true. Or "it's divine fiat". Or "it's an extraplanar anomaly". Whatever it is, it's not physics, lol.

There are magics which alter, redirect, or negate gravity. There are also "natural" ("supernatural"?) phenomena which affect gravity, permanent zones of different gravity or variable gravity or whatever. The reverse gravity spell comes to mind. But even low-level floating disc and levitation and fly spells utterly defy the physics we understand.

All that being said, remember that Realmspace (and Krynnspace, etc) is entirely encased within a crystal sphere. And nothing (going in or out) can breach the sphere without the use of magic. Why assume that heat can pass through a sphere's barrier? Why assume that the phlogiston is even part of the same dimension/plane as wildspace? RW physics supplies us with (theoretical) Dyson Spheres which contain (almost) all of the power generated by a star. RW sci-fi (loosely based on RW physics, lol) supplies us with warp drives and wormholes - and I don't recall seeing Starfleet taking any special precautions against heat/cold encountered during flight.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Mar 2017 01:38:48
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  03:46:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I cannot help myself but to be still amused by effort given to explain Toril's crystal sphere with RW physics. In the world where sun could be destroyed, moons hurled toward planet and mass could be generated out of nowhere... In this space theory of gravity could not work, thus planets make no sense too (they would fall apart) so why don't you just state "it's magic" and start from there instead of using it for any inconsistency that rises up.
Why does the fact that objects can be affected by another force mean there is no gravity?

Also, I'll point out that it's been stated from the beginning -- all the way back to the OGB -- that physics is a little different in the Realms.
Agreed with both - the physics which apply to our world/universe are not the same as the physics which apply in the Realms (or Realmspace). In the Realms (and Realmspace) "it's magic" is true. Or "it's divine fiat". Or "it's an extraplanar anomaly". Whatever it is, it's not physics, lol.

There are magics which alter, redirect, or negate gravity. There are also "natural" ("supernatural"?) phenomena which affect gravity, permanent zones of different gravity or variable gravity or whatever. The reverse gravity spell comes to mind. But even low-level floating disc and levitation and fly spells utterly defy the physics we understand.



I'm going to repeat the most relevant part of your post as my rebuttal: the physics we understand.

There is a heck of a lot we don't understand about the real world, up to and including gravity.

So if we don't even understand how something works, how can we truly say it's being defied?

That's my stance. It all follows the rules of physics -- we just don't know what all of those rules are.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  03:48:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And if you count 'Elminster's Hideout', that would make THREE citadels in Realmspace.



One could quibble about the definition of a citadel, but it's easier to just agree on this one.



And being a little generous with the definition, would Skull of the Void count as a fourth citadel?

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Thoth
Seeker

Canada
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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  11:25:24  Show Profile Send Thoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, I am quite impressed with this conversation. A lot of fun, especially at 7 AM in the morning!

:)
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