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 SCAG: Tchazzar: wording is he actually back?
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  12:27:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, I was originally a bit miffed (as in annoyed, but not hating)that they had entirely ignored the whole death of Tchazzar from the novels. However, if it weren't in the old empires area, I'd take a whole different meaning to the wording below. Down there, incarnations are the mortal descendants of gods who are specifically chosen to possess some portion of said god's spirit. In return they gain special powers naturally and usually have more hit dice, etc... Its almost like a Chosen, though much more powerful. Usually there's a manifestation (physical form) and then there are actually multiple incarnations at a time. I state this, because there are instances where they state things like "all the incarnations of Horus-Re were killed, and for a short time an incarnation of Thoth ruled".
So, in this instance, do they actually mean incarnation or incarnation ? Is there a half-dragon or dragon-blooded Chessentan (or even a full dragon, though this I'd rather not) sitting on the throne of Erebos who is a descendant of Tchazzar? If so, how is this possible if the manifestation is dead. Or was this "manifestation" simply an avatar that was killed, and now the god Tchazzar is so weakened that he is unable to create a new one.... but he could manifest his power in a descendant as an incarnation? I don't believe that Tchazzar ever was an outer planar entity, so I can't see him having a godly essence out there, but just as the weakened avatars during the ToT could still exist as a ghostly form after their deaths... maybe he lives on as some form of divine ghost dragon and he helps guide his son?

From the SCAG below
Chessenta.
A collection of city-states bound by common culture and mutual defense, Chessenta isn't truly a nation. Each city boasts its own heroes, worships its own gladiatorial champions, and spends as much time insulting and competing with the other cities as it does on any other activity. The city of Luthcheq is dominated by worship of the bizarre deity known as Entropy, while Erebos is ruled by the latest incarnation of the red dragon known as Tchazzar the Undying. Heptios contains the largest library in Chessenta, a center of learning where all nobles aspire to send their children for tutoring. That city is looked on with disdain by the people of Akanax, whose militant contempt for the "fat philosophers" of Heptios is widely known. Toreus welcomes all visitors, even those from lands that are despised or mistrusted, and foreign coin can buy nearly anything there. The floating city of Airspur still flies somehow, its
earthmotes unaffected by the fall of its fellows when the Sundering came to a close.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Aug 2017 12:40:39

Zeromaru X
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  12:53:45  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tchazzar was a non-divine dragon in 4e, and in 3e, he was just a chosen of Tiamat, not even a demigod on his own (had to re-read Dragons of Faerûn again, but I remember that). In the novels, he wasn't a Chosen anymore, and his priesthood gained spells from Tiamat, not from him. So, the Tchazzar killed in the Battle of Lutcheq was a mortal red dragon.

I prefer just to blame Ao. He resurrected all dead gods, and for the Chessentans, Tchazzar was a god (even if he wasn't actually one). So, the faith of the Chessentans made Ao to revive Tchazzar... maybe even as a god or demigod this time.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 12:56:18
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  15:18:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and this is why I'm interested. Would be interested in any good spins that people may see to the below.


Cimbar (approx population 64,000, roughly 45% human, 35% dragonborn, 15% genasi, and 5% other races)
Notable Individuals/Residents: Rashazar Vinkeshkmal (dragonborn male sorceror, Autharch managing the city),
Description: Chessenta has long been a center of learning and free will. Once the capital of Chessenta and the seat of power of the dragon king Tchazzar, in the years leading up to the spellplague, its people were ruled over directly by the wyrm turned deity after his return in 1373 DR. Initially, this return of their hero king was seen with great joy, reverence, and a desire to extend his will throughout Chessenta. However, after more than a decade under the servitude of a somewhat mad god king, many of the people of Cimbar were beginning to resent their new master. Tchazzar did not truly appreciate their rich culture nor did he see the humans of Cimbar as anything other than servants to enact his edicts. Then came the spellplague and the majority of Old Cimbar, minus the College of Sages and the College of Mages, stayed in Toril was fell into ruins. However, the majority of what was commonly referred to as New Cimbar, with its residences, thriving shops, clean port facilities, theaters, Thayan trade enclave, and the famed Hippodrome all transferred to Abeir.

For many of the people of Cimbar, after they got past their initial shock, they embraced this new world. They were free of the yoke of their former dragon lord and could pursue establishing their own lives again. Of course, there were two major problems that they would have to deal with. First, the genasi of Shyr and their primordial ruler, Karshimis.

In the weeks following the spellplague, these genasi had overwhelmed the transferred city of Airspur, forcing its remaining population to flee to Cimbar, its traditional enemy. In addition, much of the population of Akanax, also a traditional enemy of Cimbar, and many surrounding villages had also transferred to Abeir. Many of them were without homes, for either their residences had not transferred, or they had fallen apart during said transfer. Despite this, the people of Cimbar welcomed their fellow Chessentans with open arms.

Also, the genasi of Shyr had assaulted the city of Reth, slaughtering nearly half their population and breaking down their fortifications. The genasi paid heavily for their assault, however, losing ten times these numbers and being forced to retreat. The gladiators of Reth organized the remaining populace in the days that followed after being contacted by the Thayan enclave in nearby Hlath. The red wizards of the Hlath enclave had discovered that their portal connecting to Cimbar was still working. The people of Reth travelled to Hlath, and over the next few months slowly sent tens of thousands of Chessentans to the city of Cimbar.

This portal would remain active, and a small force was sent to magically hide the city of Hlath from prying eyes, and periodically small lumber crews travelled through it to log the nearby forest of Nun, for the city of Cimbar was in desperate need of wood. About a year into their logging, these lumber crews ran across the Autunuk tribe of hybsil being assaulted by genasi. Taking axe in hand, the Chessentans slew these genasi and led the hybsil to the portal in Hlath. It was actually some of these hybsil that made the recommendation to seek out new land in the Shaar. The hybsil had been in contact magically with a centaur shaman who had reported that much of the eastern Shaar, primarily the area that the Ilythiiri had once called home, had transferred as well, and that it had not been invaded by outside forces as yet.

When members of the Thayan trade enclave began discussing travelling south into the Shaar to seek a new homeland, many individuals were attracted by the prospect. In particular it drew the attention of the displaced Mulan population of Unther, which had fled the Mulhorandi armies to seek a new home in Chessenta, only to be treated as second class citizens in the decade after their arrival. Also, many of the Chessentans that had been displaced from Akanax and Airspur saw this as an opportunity to have lands holdings of their own upon which they could rebuild. It was Zulkir Lauzoril that proposed checking out the ancient cliffside city of Peleverai as a possible point of relocation. Luckily for them all, when the land had transferred to Abeir, there was another local river in the mountains that stood where the great rift would be on Toril, and this river fed into the underground river path that became the River Shaar on Toril. It would take nearly a decade to prepare the ruined city and fully move everyone

The next issue came eight years after the spellplague, when an aspiring dragon lord led an army of dragonborn to take the city of Cimbar, only to discover that the resident red wizards and the people of Cimbar were not open to rulership by a dragon again. Having uncovered many of the secrets to adapting magic use in Abeir, the dragon lord was slain without a single dragonborn life being taken by Zulkirs Lauzoril, Yaphyll, and Mythrell'aa and Tharchioness Dmitra Flass. Its skull, having been gilded in gold and gems, still decorates one of the waterfall spouts along the walls of the Peleveria Gorge.

Having heard of the dragonborn of a nearby nation known as Tymanchebar, the citizens of Cimbar offered the dragonborn army of the dead dragon lord a choice. They could survive, but they would have to swear allegiance to the city of Cimbar against their former dragon lords, or they could die. Nearly all of them chose freedom, and even as the humans moved south into Peleveria, the dragonborn stayed in the city which had granted them their first taste of liberty. This is why the population of Cimbar to this day contains such a large population of dragonborn. Over time, the city would also attract rebel genasi seeking freedom from Shyr as well, such that the city of Cimbar that left Toril is very different from the one that has returned.

Over time, these dragonborn and genasi immigrants have studied the gathered lore of Cimbar that was left behind. As a result, many have discovered the art of the bard. Many others have discovered the art of the sorcerer due to the natural tendencies within their blood, but none are accepted as red wizards. This has caused some enmity with these races, who see no path of advancement for themselves in the red wizard's hierarchy.

Although ostensibly still a part of the United Tharchs of Toril, since their return to Toril, this city and its residents have discussed breaking away and seeking their own path. The genasi suggest joining with the nearby nation of Akanul, for in them they see kindred spirits. Many of the dragonborn would like to discuss making alliances with Tymanther, but they do not want to abandon their beautiful home. However, they all recognize that Tchazzar's influence still exists, through a mortal incarnation of his own blood ruling in the nearby city of Erebos. There are even rumors that the god-king himself still exists in some spirit dragon form, and that he looks upon his former city with much greed and perhaps even hope. What exactly the dragon-king may have left behind in Cimbar when it transferred to Abeir has become the source of much speculation by the people of Cimbar.

Soorenar (approx population 32,000, of which nearly 18,000 are sentient undead that appear as normal members of the populace, the remaining populace is roughly 60% human (primarily Chondathan, Mulan, and Turami), 35% genasi, and 5% other races )
Notable Individuals/Residents: Lord Thurash Karanok (Autharch managing the city),
Description: Soorenar was one of the transferred lands that travelled from Toril to Abeir and back again. While it was gone, it was believed to be sunk beneath the River Akax and the Adder Swamp (which was renamed Sebakar). There were indeed large portions of the city which were left behind during the spellplague, as the city as a whole did not transfer over, but rather large portions of it did. Also, much of the population that did transfer over was killed, as sections of unsupported wall collapsed and crushed them. Many of these fallen Chessentans now protect the city as sentient undead who remember their past lives and appear as they did just prior to their deaths. As a result, many of them feel a kinship to their remaining descendants and will protect them at all costs.

Soorenar had always been a city divided by the river Akax, with its eastern shores being home to docking facilities, warehouses, and various amenities for the sailor, traveller, or mercenary. The western shore held the standing population and was more heavily guarded. However, when the transfer to Abeir occurred much of the western city is what was destroyed. Also, the source of the river Akax disappeared, leaving the main source of water being a portion of the Bay of Chessenta that transferred with the city. As a result, over the past century, the majority of the city has moved to surround the former port city, oftentimes stripping the old city to rebuild in or strengthen in the new area. However, as a result of the lack of available drinking water, many of the former residents of this city were some of the first to travel down into the Shaar. As time passed, this city has welcomed many genasi who seek to escape the tyranny of Shyr, particularly those with an earth or water affinity due to their abilities to provide water or help build. Many of these genasi were actually led here by a sentient undead ancestor, often in the form of a ghostly apparition, which appeared to them and told them of a land of freedom. Most of these genasi reside in the older western portion of Chessenta, and this portion of Soorenar bears less of the trappings of undeath which has become common for this city, though many are still protected by the spirits or corporeal dead bodies of their ancestors.

Prior to travelling to Abeir, Soorenar was a city of Chessenta that catered to outside spellcasters to come and strengthen them militarily. For this reason, the mortal Velsharoon built his Tower Terrible on the outskirts of the port city of eastern Soorenar. Following his rise to godhood, this residence attracted many followers of Velsharoon, and a large temple catering to practictioners of necromancy was established. This temple was soon surrounded by merchants catering to wizards and priests and the numbers of spellcasters of all sorts in Soorenar swelled, particularly amongst the Mulan populace which was displaced by the war between Unther and Mulhorand. After the transfer to Abeir, this complex has become the heart of Soorenar, with thousands of sentient undead, necromancers, and priests set to guard the Tower Terrible, which all were forbidden to enter. In fact, one of the earliest instances of godly interaction with mortals was when Zulkirs Yaphyll and Mythrell'aa, claiming to be the avatars of Savras and Leira, arrived in Soorenar to enter the Tower Terrible with Mimuay, the daughter of Lauzoril, and several other individuals (see previous accountings for more detail). While in Abeir, lights were periodically seen within the tower, and many believed that the manifestation of Velsharoon resided in the dwelling when he was not gone doing the work of a god.

Also, as a result of trade negotiations, the red wizards of Thay had established a trade enclave in Soorenar, and during the Thayan civil war, Zulkir Lauzoril had secretly setup a residence in this trade enclave when his daughter, Mimuay, was approached by followers of Velsharoon who promised to support the Zulkirs in their fight against Szass Tam. Lauzoril moved his entire family to Soorenar to protect them from the machinations of his fellow red wizards as he helped lead the rebellion from Bezantur (for more on this, read the entries for Zulkir Lauzoril and Zulkir Mimuay).

Traditionally, this city was lead by a council of nobles from three noble families. The residence of one of these noble families did not transfer to Abeir, and the leaders of another noble house were amongst those who travelled south to the Shaar. This left the Karanok family, who bear some long ago bloodlines to the Karanoks of Luthcheq, but do not bear that family's devotion to Entropy or hatred of wizards. Many of the Chessentans who remained in Soorenar come from this noble house or the servants and mercenaries who supported them. Of the remaining human population, many of them were divine servants loyal to the worship of Velsharoon whose descendants have since become an integral part of the makeup of this city.

With its return to Toril, Soorenar finds that things are not exactly as they once were. Although they once again exist directly on the coast of the Bay of Chessenta, the roads that once connected them to Eastern Chessenta are long washed away. The western shore of the river Akax sees some work being performed to rebuild amongst its ruins, particularly in the old Karanok family lands which had been looted over the past century but not destroyed. Reconstruction of its ports, as well as the building of ships, is underway. In fact, the wily people of Soorenar have actually acquired at least four ships by placing what appear to be bountiful trade ships afloat in the inner sea whilst setting a trap for the inevitable pirates that will come to harass them.

Directly to its south, a swampland known as both Sebakar and the Adder Swamp holds sway, though many cartographers believe that the sundering reduced the size of this swamp significantly, sinking much of it once again to the bottom of the bay of Chessenta. This sinking caused the death of numerous lizard folk, wererats, and werecrocodiles, but oddly these deaths seem to have only strengthened Soorenar. The northernmost borders of the Sebakar swamp are now patrolled by undead lizard folk and humanoid skeletons that resemble humans, ratmen, and crocodile headed beings in service to Velsharoon. These are simple undead rather than the awakened undead which provide the majority of the city's population, and while they number over a thousand, they are not reflected in the city's population.

This swamp has further affected Soorenar since its return, as the river Akax flows directly through it. While it flows fast enough that it doesn't generally become overly polluted, the city has begun to build reservoirs in order to magically boil and remove contaminants from the drinking supply. The city has also begun the construction of irrigation ditches to enrich the surrounding soil for farming, and they hope that this will decrease the size of the swampland in coming years and hopefully make that land suitable for settlement as well someday soon.

Since their return to Toril, Aulkir Ythazz Buvaar, a demilich integral to the formation of the Zulkirate of Thay, has been released from his assigned role as protector of Soorenar. It is known that his eyes have turned once again to Thay and Szass Tam. It is also said that he seeks information on the whereabouts of Xingax's laboratories in the Sunrise Mountains and the foothills of the Thaymounts, as well as information on what was done with the aborted godflesh. In the past century, he is purported to have created at least four powerful skeleton warriors from the bodies of genasi warlords of Shyr sent to invade Soorenar, and he controls these warriors via gems in a circlet surrounding him as his personal bodyguards. Several high ranking priests of Velsharoon are said to support Ythazz Buvaar in these endeavours.

Finally, with the return to Toril, the city-state of Laothkund, formerly an outlying holding of the Tharch of Pelevar, has been given its own autonomy when Zulkir Lallara Mediocros appeared. After a meeting held in secrecy with Zulkirs Lauzoril and Mimuay Tavai, Aulkir Dmitra Flass, and Thulkir Nyasia Tavi, Lallara Mediocros declared that she would align the other cities of the wizard's reach (in particular the city of Escalant, but also the smaller villages of Murbant, Taskaunt, and Lasdur, and the town of Tilbrand which had been rebuilt since the salamander wars) into a new Tharch if she were accepted as Zulkir of Abjuration within the United Tharchs of Toril and be allowed to oversee the election of the Aulkirs. While the other Zulkirs could not cast down their fellow Zulkir, they did arrange for a spell duel between the current Zulkir of Abjuration and Lallara, which Lallara did win and thus become the new Zulkir of Abjuration. It is said that Lallara and Ythazz Buvaar are in talks about having the city of Soorenar also secede from the Tharch of Pelevar and join the newly formed Tharch of the Wizard's Reach. While many would think that this would upset the Pelevari, in truth many of the people of Peleveran find Ythazz Buvaar distasteful, and they know the city to be well beyond their area of control, and so this transition may occur with little to no issues.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Aug 2017 15:27:25
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  16:05:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Tchazzar was a non-divine dragon in 4e, and in 3e, he was just a chosen of Tiamat, not even a demigod on his own (had to re-read Dragons of Faerûn again, but I remember that). In the novels, he wasn't a Chosen anymore, and his priesthood gained spells from Tiamat, not from him. So, the Tchazzar killed in the Battle of Lutcheq was a mortal red dragon.

I prefer just to blame Ao. He resurrected all dead gods, and for the Chessentans, Tchazzar was a god (even if he wasn't actually one). So, the faith of the Chessentans made Ao to revive Tchazzar... maybe even as a god or demigod this time.



Yeah, I had to do the same thing, and even check if he'd ever had a god entry in F&A, P&P, or F&P to look for an outer planar domain. He was a dragon ascendant though with 12 levels in that prestige class from the 3e draconomicon, and dragons of Faerun refers to him as a quasi-deity in several instances. So, I'm picturing essentially earthbound form of a manifestation prior to his death in the novels. Then the wording in the SCAG allows us some leeway... so that maybe the Sceptanar of Erebos is actually an "incarnation" or "weakened avatar" as in what happened during the ToT. It makes it less of a "dragon lord over the city", which we already have in Murghom and Semphar, and instead something a little more insidious... a god trying desperately to survive and barely hanging on through his child.

I can honestly say, the one thing I do see people saying is that Ao 'hit a reset button' and all the gods came back. I prefer that to not be the case, because its basically a ruination of a story that can be developed. It can be a story of gods struggling to survive rather than haughtily lording it over the people. This is why I want to present the story of gods in Abeir, while also leaving it details light (I will personally make speculations like this one, but that's me, not the definitive "this is how it will be"). In using Abeir as a place where those gods were, it gives us a way to return these deities without it being "Ao hit a reset button". It also allows us to tweak them as well, and maybe we even make some choices on which ones actually return. For instance, we know Enlil is back as well as Gilgeam and we've been told that Marduk is Bahamut. So what about all the other Untheric deities? Honestly, Girru is the god of fire... and we already have Kossuth in the area. We also have more sun gods than you can shake a stick at across the world, so Utu? Who here is dying to have Nergal back? I can however personally see uses for Ki and Inanna (though with people specifically wondering if they aren't X,Y, or Z deity). Now, if someone else does want Utu back, well, it doesn't prevent them doing it.


Just posting some of the below in case somehow it becomes relevant to the conversation. Just trying to establish what he actually was.

Tchazzar is currently the only dragon quasi-deity (dragon with 12 levels of the dragon ascendant class) active in Faerûn.

FEAT: SERVANT OF A DRAGON ASCENDANT
You formally supplicate yourself to an immortal dragon quasi-deity.

FEAT: INITIATE OF TCHAZZAR
You have been initiated into the greatest mysteries of Tchazzar’s church.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  17:36:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer to think of the "returned" deities as just aspects of existing ones, and/or existing deities masquerading as fallen ones. I agree that just handwaving them all back into existence is way problematic, and we've already got documented cases of deities using alternate names, including names of the fallen. So that's a much easier fix than trying to spin multiple deities of the same portfolio.

Plus, as I've said more than once, I think Myrkul is a lot more fun reveling in his status as a fallen deity, rather than being a deity again -- which we have in canon as something he didn't want.

And if someone couldn't last as a deity before, why give them another chance?

As for Tchazzar... "Incarnation" could be a reincarnation, an avatar, or someone claiming to be either thing.

Also, since I'm weak on everything that happened post-3E, what happened with Tiamat? If she suffered any major setbacks along the way, that could have lead to the dragons that were part of her rebirth -- which included Tchazzar -- being spun back off into separate entities. She also could have spun one or more back off as part of some plot of her own.

Last point: Tchazzar was originally pretending to be a human. The incarnation could be a human one.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Aug 2017 17:38:25
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  21:40:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I can honestly say, the one thing I do see people saying is that Ao 'hit a reset button' and all the gods came back. I prefer that to not be the case, because its basically a ruination of a story that can be developed.


But this is what he did. Including ruining the story.

Now, we can change that stuff for our personal campaigns, or the candlecanon, but that don't change that Ao hitting the reset button is what actually happened in canon. And to change stuff in a logical way, we first must know what happened in canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  21:45:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I can honestly say, the one thing I do see people saying is that Ao 'hit a reset button' and all the gods came back. I prefer that to not be the case, because its basically a ruination of a story that can be developed.


But this is what he did. Including ruining the story.

Now, we can change that stuff for our personal campaigns, or the candlecanon, but that don't change that Ao hitting the reset button is what actually happened in canon. And to change stuff in a logical way, we first must know what happened in canon.



So you're saying that something is explicitly canon... but we don't know what it is that is canon.

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  22:04:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Tchazzar was a non-divine dragon in 4e, and in 3e, he was just a chosen of Tiamat, not even a demigod on his own (had to re-read Dragons of Faerûn again, but I remember that).
Except that Chosen ARE demigods. Some people think that happened in 3e, or when everyone of that 'tier' became Exarchs...

But I can show you 1e sources where Elminster is repeatedly referred to as 'a demigod'.

A 'Chosen' in FR is like a living 'Saint' in other settings. 'It' is no longer mortal. Mystra's Chosen even have the 'godly' ability of hearing their name spoken, ANYWHERE in the multiverse (Elminster must have put cotton in his ears because of Earth LOL).

Call Tchazzar whatever you want, but he had divine Ranks, thats for sure, whether he was serving Tiamat or not.

This touches upon some of what I was talking about in the other thread - that deities 'ascend' though adulation, and oft-times, it happens spontaneously, without the person even trying ('hero-gods'). I think most deities - even and especially the RW ones from mythology were actual, living people at some point. Leaders of their early curlture, who became 'deifid' after their deaths. The Egyptians were a bit more overt about it - they did it on purpose (probably figured-out that cosmic looophole - that if enough people are thinking about you/focusing their attention on you, you can spontaneusly ascend to godhood). Adulation works best, but fear can work, too. Just ask the 'Dragon-Kings' of Athas (where I got a lot of these ideas, so very long ago).

Fancy that - a setting where anyone can become a god, just by forcing people to worship them. And the in-between (metamorphisis) stage? Draconic! you go through ten levels of 'dragonborn/half-dragon' like changes until you become a full-blown dragon-King (God). i theorized this is only true on Athas because they figured-out how to 'kick start' the process early (lev. 20, IIRC). However, in any other setting, this should normally occur around lev. 25 (according to my calculations - at lev. 25 you are the godly equivalent of DvR '1'). Thus, at lev. 30 - just as it is in Athas - you transform into a full god (DvR 6 = lesser god). Levels 25-29 you are demigod, whether anyone acknowledges that fact or not (think about what a lev. 29 character can do to a town... a city?). Thats what Elminster's level was at in 1e, and he was already a Chosen. You don't have to do a thing - your fame will do it for you.

There was a set of rules - Exalted - where you could actually play those 'divine levels' (ranks). Not my kind of game, but I can see it being interesting - playing a 'new god' in a big pond. It would probably work best in a Planscape-type setting. On a normal-world setting, I think it would play-out more like a 'Supers' game.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  22:19:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought he was referred to as a quasi deity (a better term in my opinion).

I dont view demigods as real gods, they are merely one of the steps on a complicated path to godhood.
As a demigod you are still you, you still have substance, a body, physical drives. But you also have tremendous power and reserves that mortals cannot fathom.

Becoming a god involves losing that body and substance and becoming a being of thought and belief (that can only exist on planes of belief - the outer planes), you exist on multiple phases of existence, can expend yourself to craft and shape matter out of nothing (make avatars and divine realms). But in doing so you lose control of yourself.

That is why Elminster remains a demi 'not really' god, so he can remain himself for longer (although memories fade with time and eventually all beings lose themselves).

The whole god model in the realms needs a rework of rules and terminology, its been far too polluted by lazy design and lazy storytelling.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
561 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  22:22:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So you're saying that something is explicitly canon... but we don't know what it is that is canon.



No. I'm saying that we have to understand how stuff happened in canon, so when we are changing it, we understand what we are changing, and that will help us in changing for the better.

Now, that the canon explanation is boring and idea-killer, yes... but well, that is WotC's fault.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 22:23:08
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
561 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  23:19:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like your summary of the cities. I am going to comment about it, but first...

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For instance, we know Enlil is back as well as Gilgeam and we've been told that Marduk is Bahamut. So what about all the other Untheric deities? Honestly, Girru is the god of fire... and we already have Kossuth in the area. We also have more sun gods than you can shake a stick at across the world, so Utu? Who here is dying to have Nergal back? I can however personally see uses for Ki and Inanna (though with people specifically wondering if they aren't X,Y, or Z deity). Now, if someone else does want Utu back, well, it doesn't prevent them doing it.


My theory is that the gods that returned during the Second Sundering were those who had some form of cult or lingering believers around at the time. The missing ones just returned, but we need an explanation for those confirmed as dead in canon (such as Gilgeam). Here is mine: since reality was in a state of flux during the Second Sundering, it allowed for these dead deities that were confirmed as dead powers to hear the prayer of their followers and return as well.

For instance, the Mulhorandi gods appeared because the mulani prayed to them for help during the short-lived reign of High Imaskar. Mystra and Tyr are obvious examples, as well. In Tchazzar's case, the Chessentans faith forces Ao to revive him as a god-ling thing, even if he was a mortal before (in 4e, is canon that he was a mortal). Ao has to play by rules, and in his rules, if something is worshiped as a god, it is a god.

This will also help to explain why dead or missing gods for a hundred years, suddenly have lots of followers (because reasons, in canon). They didn't have to re-gain their former followers back or amass masses of new followers, they already had faithful cultists waiting for them. They just needed a few new converts, not masses of them.

But forgotten gods such as Utu or Girru... highly doubt it.

So, Enlil being an exception (unexplained exception, but it seems to be a unique, or at least very, very rare case), I don't see the rest of the forgotten gods returning. Nanna-Sin is an example of this: he remained dead, even during the Second Sundering stuff. And was only revived by the will of another god.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 23:45:03
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1130 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:15:13  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given the wider context of what is happening in the realms, and the use of Incarnation, I'd say he is Akin to Gilgeam and the Mulhorandi Pantheon.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1130 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:18:44  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I really like your summary of the cities. I am going to comment about it, but first...

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For instance, we know Enlil is back as well as Gilgeam and we've been told that Marduk is Bahamut. So what about all the other Untheric deities? Honestly, Girru is the god of fire... and we already have Kossuth in the area. We also have more sun gods than you can shake a stick at across the world, so Utu? Who here is dying to have Nergal back? I can however personally see uses for Ki and Inanna (though with people specifically wondering if they aren't X,Y, or Z deity). Now, if someone else does want Utu back, well, it doesn't prevent them doing it.


My theory is that the gods that returned during the Second Sundering were those who had some form of cult or lingering believers around at the time. The missing ones just returned, but we need an explanation for those confirmed as dead in canon (such as Gilgeam). Here is mine: since reality was in a state of flux during the Second Sundering, it allowed for these dead deities that were confirmed as dead powers to hear the prayer of their followers and return as well.

For instance, the Mulhorandi gods appeared because the mulani prayed to them for help during the short-lived reign of High Imaskar. Mystra and Tyr are obvious examples, as well. In Tchazzar's case, the Chessentans faith forces Ao to revive him as a god-ling thing, even if he was a mortal before (in 4e, is canon that he was a mortal). Ao has to play by rules, and in his rules, if something is worshiped as a god, it is a god.

This will also help to explain why dead or missing gods for a hundred years, suddenly have lots of followers (because reasons, in canon). They didn't have to re-gain their former followers back or amass masses of new followers, they already had faithful cultists waiting for them. They just needed a few new converts, not masses of them.

But forgotten gods such as Utu or Girru... highly doubt it.

So, Enlil being an exception (unexplained exception, but it seems to be a unique, or at least very, very rare case), I don't see the rest of the forgotten gods returning. Nanna-Sin is an example of this: he remained dead, even during the Second Sundering stuff. And was only revived by the will of another god.



The divine Sparks of the Untheric Pantheon still exist, so who knows what can happen to the others dead Untheric Gods, there are other Gods who can bring them back, for a price...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:24:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I can honestly say, the one thing I do see people saying is that Ao 'hit a reset button' and all the gods came back. I prefer that to not be the case, because its basically a ruination of a story that can be developed.


But this is what he did. Including ruining the story.

Now, we can change that stuff for our personal campaigns, or the candlecanon, but that don't change that Ao hitting the reset button is what actually happened in canon. And to change stuff in a logical way, we first must know what happened in canon.



That's what people are saying. That is not canon that I know of, as its not written into any canon sourcebooks. Unless of course its in some dragon+ article or something. I know we've got authors and such saying "all the gods are back", but that's like saying "hey, just quit bugging me on this and do what you want". Also, it immediately brings up the question of "which gods of all the gods". I mean is Mystryl, Mystra I and Mystra II and the original Selune/Shar as well as Shar and Selune plus Shekinester before she was split into five entities and Shekinester after she was split... are they all back?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13846 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:33:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ever since I saw this thread this morning, I've had this stupid song running through my head (My Boyfriends Back)
So now, with some slight modification, I'm going to plague all of YOU with it.

My Tchazzzars Back

My Tchazzar's back and your gonna be in trouble.
When you see him better cut off on the double.
You've been spreading lies that I was untrue.
So look out now because he's coming after you.

Yeah he knows what you've been trying
And he knows that you've been lying.
He's been gone for such a long time.
Now he's back and things'll be fine.
Your gonna be sorry you were ever born.
Coz he's kinda big and he's awful strong.

And I can see him coming.
So you better start running.
What made you think he'd believe all your lies
You're a big man now but he'll cut you down to size.

Wait and see.
My Tchazzar's back, he's gonna save my reputation.
If I were you I'd take a permanent vacation.
Yeah he knows I wasn't cheating.
And your gonna get a beating.
Whoooooh, Whoooooh wait and see.

My Tchazzar's back he's gonna save my reputation.
If I were you I'd take a permanent vacation.
Yeah my Tchazzar's back
Yeah, yeah my Tchazzar's back.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 00:33:27
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
561 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  01:07:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Chessenta has long been a center of learning and free will.


For what I remember from the Brotherhood of the Griffon, Chessenta was a very oppressive land. The spellcasters's joining forces with Tchazzar was because of the oppresive laws of the Chessentans against them.

Or was this just the yoke of the Karanok rule?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, after more than a decade under the servitude of a somewhat mad god king


Was Tchazzar mad before 4e?

In 4e he was mad because of 94 years of torture he had to endure in the Shadowfell. Its something understandable. But I don't remember him mad before that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In the weeks following the spellplague, these genasi had overwhelmed the transferred city of Airspur


Didn't Airspur remained in Toril? The genasi of Akanûl didn't built a new city when they renamed Airspur, they just came upon the ruins of Airspur and rebuilt them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The next issue came eight years after the spellplague, when an aspiring dragon lord led an army of dragonborn to take the city of Cimbar, only to discover that the resident red wizards and the people of Cimbar were not open to rulership by a dragon again. Having uncovered many of the secrets to adapting magic use in Abeir


8 years after the transfer of Chessenta to Abeir make this date year 9 of the Wailing Years. In the Wailing Years magic just didn't worked at all, for anyone. Here a excerpt from a Dragon article:

quote:


The Wailing Years:

In game terms, the Spellplague represents the definitive event for transitioning the setting from one rules system to the next, and the loss of the Weave will have a profound effect on arcane spellcasters in your campaign.

Though a small percentage of mages are driven to madness at the outset of the Spellplague, it's recommended you spare your players from this ignoble fate. Instead, wizards and other arcane spellcasters find that their magic has gone wild or departed altogether. In effect, all of Abeir-Toril is blanketed by a massive zone of wild magic. As the Weave unravels throughout the month of Nightal in the Year of Blue Fire, these wild magic zones are quickly replaced with dead magic zones until one day arcane magic ceases to function altogether.

DMs might wish to take advantage of the Wailing Years to run a low magic/melee-centric. Otherwise it might be wise to simply move your campaign forward to the Year of Silent Death (1395 DR) or beyond, where direct effects of the Spellplague have largely subsided and most spellcasters have once again gained mastery of their magic.


If Toril, that is the magical world, had no access to magic at all during the Wailing Years, I really doubt that Abeir, the world that is already low-magical, would have been different. My theory is that the Wailing Years took even more time in Abeir because Abeir doesn't have a proper "Weave", so magic had to repair itself for more time there.

My suggestion is that the draconic invasion either happened 10+ years after the transfer to Abeir, or that they defeated it without magic. Or using magic items, as some (but not all) still worked as usual even during the Wailing Years.

quote:


Effect on Items
Most magic items that permanently store magic, such as magic swords, cloaks, and boots, survived the Spellplague and continue to operate normally. Permanent access to magic was "installed" in these devices when they were created, so even though the Weave was used in their making, the Weave no longer played any part in their continuing operation. That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This sinking caused the death of numerous lizard folk, wererats, and werecrocodiles, but oddly these deaths seem to have only strengthened Soorenar.


Is there a reason for this beyond humanocentrism?

If I can voice my opinion, I really prefer a city of werecrocodiles rather than just another boring human city...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 01:08:55
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
561 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  01:27:44  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The divine Sparks of the Untheric Pantheon still exist, so who knows what can happen to the others dead Untheric Gods, there are other Gods who can bring them back, for a price...



Yeah, but nobody remember those guys, for them to come back alive on their own during the Second Sundering. Gilgeam is a rare exception, but we know that the Untherans in Abeir had something to do with his return.

But without enough people remembering them, the divine sparks of those other Untheric gods are just ripe for the plunder of wanna-be gods.

This can also explain why Mystra returned, but Mystryl don't. There are not enough people remembering Mystryl today.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2687 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  02:05:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


This can also explain why Mystra returned, but Mystryl doesn't. There are not enough people remembering Mystryl today.



IIRC, Ed addressed that. In short, the returned Mystra is not Midnight. Shevis yet a new Mystra, and in his novels we see that she includes and can draw from the consciousnesses of all the previous Mystra.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 13 Aug 2017 02:11:58
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30084 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  04:05:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So you're saying that something is explicitly canon... but we don't know what it is that is canon.



No. I'm saying that we have to understand how stuff happened in canon, so when we are changing it, we understand what we are changing, and that will help us in changing for the better.

Now, that the canon explanation is boring and idea-killer, yes... but well, that is WotC's fault.



No... I'm looking at this sentence: "Ao hitting the reset button is what actually happened in canon. And to change stuff in a logical way, we first must know what happened in canon."

You're saying that something happened in canon, but we don't know what that canon is. So if we don't know what the canon is, we can't say what happened. In other words, if we lack any information on the topic, then Ao hitting the reset button is not canon, it is speculation.

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2877 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  07:53:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Note that quasi-deity has a specific rules meaning in 3e that the dragon ascendant prestige class references. It's in the deity rules in Deities and Demigods and that starts on page 5 of Faiths and Pantheons. That technically means Tchazzar couldn't grant spells to worshipers in that edition. There are sample quasi-deities in Deities and Demigods; I don't know if there's any in FR 3e materials.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  14:41:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Chessenta has long been a center of learning and free will.


For what I remember from the Brotherhood of the Griffon, Chessenta was a very oppressive land. The spellcasters's joining forces with Tchazzar was because of the oppresive laws of the Chessentans against them.

Or was this just the yoke of the Karanok rule?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, after more than a decade under the servitude of a somewhat mad god king


Was Tchazzar mad before 4e?

In 4e he was mad because of 94 years of torture he had to endure in the Shadowfell. Its something understandable. But I don't remember him mad before that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In the weeks following the spellplague, these genasi had overwhelmed the transferred city of Airspur


Didn't Airspur remained in Toril? The genasi of Akanûl didn't built a new city when they renamed Airspur, they just came upon the ruins of Airspur and rebuilt them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The next issue came eight years after the spellplague, when an aspiring dragon lord led an army of dragonborn to take the city of Cimbar, only to discover that the resident red wizards and the people of Cimbar were not open to rulership by a dragon again. Having uncovered many of the secrets to adapting magic use in Abeir


8 years after the transfer of Chessenta to Abeir make this date year 9 of the Wailing Years. In the Wailing Years magic just didn't worked at all, for anyone. Here a excerpt from a Dragon article:

quote:


The Wailing Years:

In game terms, the Spellplague represents the definitive event for transitioning the setting from one rules system to the next, and the loss of the Weave will have a profound effect on arcane spellcasters in your campaign.

Though a small percentage of mages are driven to madness at the outset of the Spellplague, it's recommended you spare your players from this ignoble fate. Instead, wizards and other arcane spellcasters find that their magic has gone wild or departed altogether. In effect, all of Abeir-Toril is blanketed by a massive zone of wild magic. As the Weave unravels throughout the month of Nightal in the Year of Blue Fire, these wild magic zones are quickly replaced with dead magic zones until one day arcane magic ceases to function altogether.

DMs might wish to take advantage of the Wailing Years to run a low magic/melee-centric. Otherwise it might be wise to simply move your campaign forward to the Year of Silent Death (1395 DR) or beyond, where direct effects of the Spellplague have largely subsided and most spellcasters have once again gained mastery of their magic.


If Toril, that is the magical world, had no access to magic at all during the Wailing Years, I really doubt that Abeir, the world that is already low-magical, would have been different. My theory is that the Wailing Years took even more time in Abeir because Abeir doesn't have a proper "Weave", so magic had to repair itself for more time there.

My suggestion is that the draconic invasion either happened 10+ years after the transfer to Abeir, or that they defeated it without magic. Or using magic items, as some (but not all) still worked as usual even during the Wailing Years.

quote:


Effect on Items
Most magic items that permanently store magic, such as magic swords, cloaks, and boots, survived the Spellplague and continue to operate normally. Permanent access to magic was "installed" in these devices when they were created, so even though the Weave was used in their making, the Weave no longer played any part in their continuing operation. That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This sinking caused the death of numerous lizard folk, wererats, and werecrocodiles, but oddly these deaths seem to have only strengthened Soorenar.


Is there a reason for this beyond humanocentrism?

If I can voice my opinion, I really prefer a city of werecrocodiles rather than just another boring human city...





I hate responding in these line by line things, because it gets tedious (and for some reason eventually changes the font orange), so it will be one long response.

Regarding Chessenta being an oppressed place

Heck no, Chessenta wasn't oppressed (or at least not all of it). It was squabbling internally, but Cimbar was a great center for learning. It was (and forgive me giving this comparison, because I really don't want to compare it to Greece) like Athens. Akanax was effectively like Sparta. The other cities were a mix. However, right at the literal very end of 3.5, Tchazzar actually showed up in physical form again. At first, he's seen as a hero. However, that's only with him being there a year or two. I pretty much equate that to "dating" and somewhat wonder if 10-11 years down the road, those people in Cimbar might just be getting tired of Tchazzar. They aren't the same bloodthirsty Chessentans that he led centuries prior. They have elevated themselves further in the four centuries since he left (at least in Cimbar).

Now, was Chessenta a shining example like Impiltur and Cormyr? No. But it wanted its citizens to succeed and was improving itself. See this from the 3e campaign guide for a rough idea.

Chessentans practice slavery, although it is less widespread than
in Unther and Mulhorand. Unlike in those countries, a slave-owner
can grant a slave freedom at any time, often for exceptional work.
Slaves are kept illiterate, except those in Cimbar. Chessenta's sizable middle class controls the country's money. The government encourages prosperity for all, so tax revenues remain high.


also this for Cimbar in particular (note the Old Empires from 2e gives better and more detail, but this is a shorter read

Hundreds of years ago, Tchazzar chose Cimbar as the center of his short-lived Chessentan Empire. Cimbar is the traditional capital of Chessenta, although it has only been so in truth for one short period of history. The city requires participation in the arts, philosophy, and music by the population, and it is known for its college of sages, and artist's college.

Regarding Airspur transferring

Some of my thoughts with Cimbar/Soorenar/Airspur/Akanax/Hlath, etc.. all revolve around the concept of partial transferal. In the case of Akanax for instance, it was mostly people and not buildings. For Airspur in Abeir, I'm basically doing the same. Some of the people of Airspur went over, and maybe say 30% of the buildings. They had to flee. Said lands now fall to Shyr, and that's all that needs to be developed for Faerun/Toril since nothing transfers back from there. This is kind of covered with the whole "western chessenta" having had issues post-spellplague, and the fact that people don't really KNOW what happened, because they couldn't see Abeir. So, we have some leeway.

Regarding my thoughts of arcane magic in Abeir

What happens in my version of Abeir is that dweomerheart got transferred there. So did many of the gods of magic. As a result, magic stabilizes there quicker (as we don't have to have the two worlds totally mirroring each other). However, very few people that transfer over actually know how to use it. However, I am going to incorporate some things like a requirement for an arcane focus, and some kind of links to dream magic (I've discussed some of that here... and one thing I may have is that wizards must "tie" their arcane focus to the dreams of a weakened/healing mystra OR SOME OTHER DEITY OF MAGIC... on this, I haven't even delved the Mulhorandi, and they may use Thoth and Isis... there may be certain gems, etc.. that are better able to do this, and that can become a campaign schtick if one travels to Abeir). There may even have been some harsher spell level limits in Abeir as well in regards using a focus (i.e. to work a 9th level spell, maybe you need a focus the size of a large statue), and while those mechanics SHOULD be worked out, it can somewhat wait until we have definitions of what we want to do with the places returned to Faerun.

Why? Because otherwise all those areas that were transferred over just become oppressed lands, and when they return, they are oppressed lands still more than likely. In this, I'm not just thinking about Faerun mind you, but a much larger scope. Allowing this doesn't necessarily force the Faerunians to dominate the scene in Abeir, but it does simply allow them to defend themselves.

From a similar standpoint, the wailing years also probably prevented Akanul and Tymanther from being overridden as well. Otherwise I could see the red wizards that fled to the wizard's reach cities dominating the new areas or some of the areas left in ruins. So, mechanically from a game perspective it works best to extend the "wailing years" on Toril and shorten them on Abeir (might also want to come up with a name for this time on Abeir, much as how they called the "spellplague" the "blue breath of change"... which begs the question, what did the people that transferred to Abeir or who were IN Abeir call it).

Also to note, someone pointed out that Halruaa went to Abeir and
they used their magic to not only transfer there safely, but they also displaced a portion of Abeir into the shadowfell. Arguments can be made that as well that magic is weaker in Toril now than it was pre-spellplague, so perhaps magic grew stronger in Abeir. Maybe it stole some of Toril magic (and Ed's article discussing Worldfire does discuss individuals using magic to steal energy from one world to empower themselves in another, so this would simply be on a broader scale).

Also, during the wailing years, it wasn't that there was NO magic whatsoever. The Thayan Haunted Lands trilogy definitely shows that to be a myth, as they are still using magic after the spellplague. Tam does learn the new base spellcasting theories from Bane, but the other side isn't sitting there doing nothing. Sometimes spells go wild. Sometimes spells just fail. Some magic is from magic items. But, they're still spellcasting.

regarding how the Thayans defeated the dragon

Actually, I haven't totally worked this out, which is why I left it vague. It could be magic items or artifacts held by the Zulkirs involved. It could be their own spells. What I do think I'll do is have it that they used what they were good at... illusions and mental manipulation, plus a knowledge of the surrounding territory.... I'm thinking something like having the dragon spit itself onto some stone or metal object that it didn't know was in its flight path or somesuch.... or maybe they have it fly into a sphere of annihilation covered by an illusion, making a wing fall off... or its speared by a dozen invisible/illusion-covered ballistae batteries... In the end, it may be better left vague.

regarding Soorenar and its undead from the swamp and why I did it, and it being humanocentric

The city was already primarily human. I have since turned it into a large genasi population. You will note that I did similar as well with Cimbar (although there I also threw in a bunch of dragonborn as well). I've also got the majority of the population being undead and I don't specify of what kind (granted undead that look and act alive)

(approx population 32,000, of which nearly 18,000 are sentient undead that appear as normal members of the populace, the remaining populace is roughly 60% human (primarily Chondathan, Mulan, and Turami), 35% genasi, and 5% other races )

Basically, the breakdown of the city is 18,000 sentient undead, 8,000 humans (probably half worshippers of Velsharoon), 5,000 genasi, and roughly ~1000 others

For most people in previous editions, they didn't focus on Soorenar. It was always Cimbar and Akanax, and Soorenar was this mercantile group hiring mercenary wizards to do their dirty work. For me, once Velsharoon became a god in 1368 and his primary mortal domicile was listed as the Tower Terrible in Soorenar... I suddenly saw this city as becoming a center for his religion (maybe not to the happiness of the current residents, which is why I also had him on the outskirts). It probably would have taken time, such that the current products for 3e (say 1372'ish) would have seen an influx of worshippers, but not a huge temple district built up yet. However, 17 years later in 1385, there could be. In fact, exiled red wizard necromancers who didn't side with Tam could easily be here since there is even a Thayan Enclave.

So, I'm basically transforming the city into one that's embraced its links to Velsharoon... mostly because those who didn't embrace it left because while in Abeir it was turning into a sh*t hole in which undead could survive, but the rest of the population would have a hard time. But, when they return to Toril, I wanted to get rid of the huge Sebakar/Adder Swamp and make the bay of Chessenta big again. My initial thoughts were the this would mean that the inhabitants of this area would be drowned, so I was just using the deaths of those creatures to reference it (honestly wasn't big on it, as I still want the swamp on the edge of Soorenar and I want there to be werecrocs, wererats, and lizard folk in it)... however, the resinking of the swamp COULD have occurred during the great rain. IF that's the case, then perhaps we can simply relocate these individuals into the smaller swamp area. This would mean that maybe they are vying for space. Maybe they start fighting each other even more than they were. Maybe they become a problem for Soorenar/Lutcheq/Akanax/Pandrick. Either way there was still going to be this population of werecrocs, wererats, and lizard folk. Having some undead ones defending Soorenar just adds a little more non-human visual imagery to the place.


BTW, on Akanax... the idea in 4e is that it was destroyed and a nearby city named Pandrick sprang up with a smaller population but the same ethos. Basically, that happened a lot... Cimbar became "ruins" and they setup Erebos as a smaller nearby population of the exact same concept.... Mordulkin became "ruins" and they setup Heptios as a city with similar concept (i.e. commerce city working against Luthcheq). Noting that this wasn't in the FRCS, but rather BRJ's article on Chessenta in dungeon 178, so I see it as his attempt to rectify the major F'up that was done in the FRCS and "reset" the place (his spin is very good, and the one thing I loved was the maw of the godswallower, but they've reset entropy and turned Luthcheq crazy again). However, with the sundering, we can return places, and return them changed.

One thing I will note is that the Dungeon #178 article was written PRIOR to the events of the Brotherhood of the Griffin novels. So, it doesn't note Tchazzar's return NOR his death that occurs (not sure what years, but let's say sometime between say ~1480 and ~1485). It is only the mere fact that he JUST got killed that I question the whole incarnation statement. There is also a Sceptanar in Erebos and for some reason they specifically wanted the Scepter of Tchazzar to hide the identity of the person who had it, so it could easily be that this Sceptanar is a half-dragon born of Tchazzar in that short timespan between his appearance in 1373 and his disappearance following the spellplague. Either way doesn't really matter to me whether its a half-dragon or Tchazzar himself, as I plan to basically have Cimbar and Erebos as potential enemies who may come to join together OR may enter a protracted conflict.... but it does feel cheesy for Tchazzar to die and then already be back in less than 5 years. It cheapens that whole novel series, which was good. In fact, it very well could be a campaign goal to stop the people of Erebos from raising Tchazzar again.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5664 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  14:44:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Note that quasi-deity has a specific rules meaning in 3e that the dragon ascendant prestige class references. It's in the deity rules in Deities and Demigods and that starts on page 5 of Faiths and Pantheons. That technically means Tchazzar couldn't grant spells to worshipers in that edition. There are sample quasi-deities in Deities and Demigods; I don't know if there's any in FR 3e materials.



Ah, thank you. I saw the servant feat, so I knew it was an "issue" for them to get spells from him (similar to fiend worshippers, people following heresies, etc..).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13846 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  17:43:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


This can also explain why Mystra returned, but Mystryl doesn't. There are not enough people remembering Mystryl today.



IIRC, Ed addressed that. In short, the returned Mystra is not Midnight. Shevis yet a new Mystra, and in his novels we see that she includes and can draw from the consciousnesses of all the previous Mystra.
See? THIS is why I still cling to my theory that (nearly) ALL 'deities' are ascended mortals.

It goes back to my musings on Racial Overminds - that gods can appear 'spontaneously' out of racial need. In the case of humans, and other intelligent species, this phenomena would cause an existing person to 'ascend' to divinity, usually, but not always, upon death. Its the whole 'Hero-God' thing put to rules. A culture as a whole feel adulation (or FEAR, in the case of evil ascended mortals) - some strong emotion - toward a specific individual, and it start the process. The joint psionic (mental) energy combines to form a 'Uni-Mind' (racial memory?), and answers the 'need' for that god to appear.

In the case of animals, its usually more simplistic - the Uni-Mind* of a particular species (or sub-species even) creates the 'god' (Beast Lord) whole-cloth... although some sages argue that perhaps a powerful member of the race actually ascends, just like with sentient species. I personally think its the Uni-Mind itself responding as a god-like entity (in which case, there is no reason why such things can't happen to sentient species as well - there could be a god-like awareness for each race attached to the racial uni-mind).


ANYHOW... getting back to what this has to do with Mystra...

I think that The Weave is just a 'mind matrix' (similar to those theoretical uni-Minds) without its own consciousness. I think one would form, over time, as such things are wont to do within 'energy fields', but it doesn't 'come standard'. But more importantly, i think Ao wants it to be attached to a 'soul' - an actual, once-living, mortal person. By doing this, it gives them that special 'link' that IS 'divinity', or rather, that makes a 'God' a 'Deity' (once again, I'm using 'God' in the broader sense to include all 'Powers').

I think thats the crux of religion and being a deity - that special 'link' one has to their followers. For many pantheons, its racial (at first) - the being has that link to those people because they were once one of them. Ascended mortals automatically have such links - that were already part of the 'Racial Overmind'. One might think that the Overmind merely absorbs the person into itself, and then manifests the deity, and that might be true in some cases, but I think it works the other way around most of the time - the new deity can access the Uni-Mind that created it (so all the racial history/memories, fears, hopes, and dreams, etc., etc., become part of it). Basically, it acts like a set of stored information for the new divine sentience. Either way, mortals would never know the difference.

So maybe the first iteration of Mystryl wasn't human at all - maybe it was a Sarrukh, or something else entirely. Who knows? Whatever it was, it seems Ao sees a need for their to be a 'mortal soul' always attached to the The Weave. Thats why I theorize thats what gives it it's divinity (and I likened The Weave without a consciousness to a machine, and Ed agreed that that was what it would be - just an artifact {magical construct} with not mind of its own). And would you trust something like that to form a mind of its own? You might not like what comes out of it.

In that same manner, I had another theory (that I dropped because most folks didn't care for it) that that's precisely what primordials (and other 'Gods') do when they want to become deities ('gods' with a little 'g' LOL). There are two different versions of that theory, and they aren't mutually exclusive (both could be going on). That the primordial/whatever absorbs the soul of a once-mortal person, and that's how they become a deity (and yet still be a primordial), and be able to have followers, gain power from that, and deliver spells to them. The other version I call the 'Cosmic Accord', and it would probably appeal to just as many, if not more, than the other method: The primordial/whatever wants the benefits of having followers, but doesn't want to deal with any of the 'baggage', so it cuts a deal with an existing deity, who pretends to be that power**, and the two 'split the profits'. Neither has to make any full sacrifices, so its mutually beneficial. The Primordial (etc.) get most of the 'perks' without any of the downsides (and the one MAJOR downside would be that the 'anchoring' works both ways - the deity is now controlled by the dogma of the religion - meaning it has to remain pretty damn active with them to insure they don't so something stupid - and its fate is directly tied to its followers. They die, it dies (and over-simplification, but you get the idea).

On a metaphysical level, maybe being connected to the 'Racial Overmind' (and it doesn't HAVE to be racial - just about any large group would do, like a nation, or even just a large tribe) does that; that if the people spawning the Uni-Mind are gone, so is that portion of the God's brain, which causes it to lapse into that coma. Like when a mortal gets amnesia, except to a being composed of energy, it would be more like a physical blow. Until some 'awareness' of them takes shape again (and pulls them toward a new 'Group Mind'), it remains asleep, waiting... in the astral. Its merely 'power' without direction.


*The term 'unimind' I unashamedly stole from Marvel Comics

** "pretends to be that power" can be taken a LOT of ways. It can use the name of either power, a hybrid of the two names, a completely new name fabricated for the purpose, or even be the name of some other power who is dead, or just no longer active in the region. Its totally on a case-by-case basis (and part of the 'Accord'). In many cases, More powerful gods do this to weaker ones (especially demipowers), with the eventual intent of killing them and stealing their stuff. If they do this a LOT (Shar, Lloth, etc.) they are considered 'Predatory Powers', and other powers start avoiding them, and even warning ignorant 'lesser' powers to stay away from them.

on the other hand, if you had a rival you wanted to get rid of, but you weren't really an 'evil' power, you could always send them their way... on purpose. I'm sure thats been done before.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 17:57:51
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1985 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  19:48:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can appreciate what they tried to do with 5E: "restore" the Realms to a pre-Spellplague state, without actually retconning the Spellplague.

However, an explanation, if this give it, is usually only a sentence or two, and more detail would have been helpful. I'm glad all the "dead" deities are back, but I would have liked something more than "Ao did it". Tchazzar is just another example, and I agree it cheapens the BotG novels. It's hinted at that he's back, but we don't get the how/why.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
561 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  20:13:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

(and for some reason eventually changes the font orange)


I was wondering about that,

might also want to come up with a name for this time on Abeir, much as how they called the "spellplague" the "blue breath of change"... which begs the question, what did the people that transferred to Abeir or who were IN Abeir call it.

It depends of what we are turning those years toward to... but it has to do with change.

Also to note, someone pointed out that Halruaa went to Abeir and they used their magic to not only transfer there safely

Halruaa is not the best of the examples, because is a blatant contradiction of previous and subsequent lore (bigger than any error you can find in the 3e maps), just to save that region.

How Halruaa can use magic on Abeir is something that we have to resolve (potentially with the CKanon), eventually. And we better come with a best solution that "they can use magic because reasons". I'm going to buy Shining Lands book only for this reason.

so perhaps magic grew stronger in Abeir.

I'm on the theory that magic is stronger without the Weave. The Weave was placed to avoid people to go Karsus' and surpass the gods with magic. Hence, is not wrong to assume that the Weave makes magic weaker.

So, Abeir doesn't have a Weave (in the strict sense), and therefore the magic one can do there should be unlimited in scope. There is nothing limiting you there, except for the fact that magic is hardest to use there, because there is no conduct to access it (unless you already can be one, like in the case of a sorcerer).

This happens perhaps because there is no Weave; the Weave is a limiter, but is also an enabler. It seems Mystra is still the Tyrant of Magic Mystryl was... (?)

Also, during the wailing years, it wasn't that there was NO magic whatsoever. The Thayan Haunted Lands trilogy definitely shows that to be a myth, as they are still using magic after the spellplague.

That novel happens in 1385 DR. According to the Dragon article, magic was in wild state that year, but ceased to function altogether in Nightal (that, IIRC, is the equivalent of December IRL). So, its better to say that magic "died" in 1386 and returned in 1395.

So Tam using magic in that novel doesn't not contradict canon, unless the novel shows him using magic in, say, 1390.

regarding Soorenar and its undead from the swamp and why I did it, and it being humanocentric

I do prefer the werecrocodiles to be the dominant race there, because there are already too much human (or humanoids) people in the area.

However, I will don't be touching Chessenta in my share of the Ckanon (seeing that you're already doing it, and your work can be applied to the CKanon even if isn't your primary objetive), so I will leave that area as you see fit. I was just voicing my opinion.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 20:14:44
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1130 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  22:13:30  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I can appreciate what they tried to do with 5E: "restore" the Realms to a pre-Spellplague state, without actually retconning the Spellplague.

However, an explanation, if this give it, is usually only a sentence or two, and more detail would have been helpful. I'm glad all the "dead" deities are back, but I would have liked something more than "Ao did it". Tchazzar is just another example, and I agree it cheapens the BotG novels. It's hinted at that he's back, but we don't get the how/why.



Its another incarnation, that Previous incarnation of TChazzar is still dead. Its like reincarnation, its TChazzar reborn!
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