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 Could Storm Silverhand defeat this by herself?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

486 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  21:38:31  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Last I checked, Storm was a CR 32 in 3.5. Do you think she could defeat a Balor demon and two Glabrezu's by herself with both her melee and spell prowess? Putting this in our running campaign. Opinions very much needed.

Thanks, CEV.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5497 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  22:28:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Umm, if it's a plot element, why would you ask this question? If it's part of the story of your campaign then it happens or it doesn't. CR ratings, game mechanics, etc. mean diddly.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

692 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  23:14:33  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32117 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2019 :  03:56:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Last I checked, Storm was a CR 32 in 3.5. Do you think she could defeat a Balor demon and two Glabrezu's by herself with both her melee and spell prowess? Putting this in our running campaign. Opinions very much needed.

Thanks, CEV.



I don't see why not, though of course it comes down to the usual X vs. Y stuff -- the scenario strongly impacts the outcome. X may easily beat Y if X is prepared and at range, but if Y gets the jump on them, X is in trouble...

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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

486 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2019 :  16:18:29  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As the DM of our campaign this week, I plan on trapping a single PC in a hall with said demons, and I was going to have Storm rescue the PC if the PC is about to die. (Storm gave the PC a ring of summoning, that summons her if she is in dire need)But I don't want Storm to die too when I actually roll play her.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

692 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2019 :  17:45:49  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

As the DM of our campaign this week, I plan on trapping a single PC in a hall with said demons, and I was going to have Storm rescue the PC if the PC is about to die. (Storm gave the PC a ring of summoning, that summons her if she is in dire need)But I don't want Storm to die too when I actually roll play her.



If you are determined to "roll play" her then you don't need to worry about her surviving (except for the pesky vorpal blade of the Balor) as even her published stats have good enough HP, AC and saves to survive the 3 demons easily.
It's exactly how and how fast she can beat them down that's more tricky and it's probably better to handwave with a nice cinematographic description of a mix of swordfight and Silver Fire use without delving into the details (and faking dice rolls if need be, as in you throw the dices and pretend the action follow the results).
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

893 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2019 :  07:32:42  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's CR 32. The balor is barely a speedbump to her.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8038 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2019 :  22:11:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.



Damn straight, the Simbul should have such a different build for instance that builds both sorcerer and wizard.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

893 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  06:05:25  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.



Even the spellcasters are horribly built. Look at Szass Tam, the 29th level wizard with an Int of 22, or the Simbul.
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
915 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  08:50:37  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know in 2nd edition the Chosen had like super powers outside of the normal, I don't know how that translates to 3/3.5 but silver fire use could probably make up any shortcoming.
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  21:19:17  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.



What some people call "sub-optimal builds" I call realistic (N)PCs but I get your point.

As to the OP's question.. I doubt it, but part of being one of the Sisters and Chosen means your never truly alone and as George said, if she is a plot point CR goes out the window.


Sam
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  21:30:57  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.



Even the spellcasters are horribly built. Look at Szass Tam, the 29th level wizard with an Int of 22, or the Simbul.



See, your talking about 22 Int as if that's stupid. Note the 20 Wis and 20 Cha that go along with it. The guy has a mind like a steel trap. I would advise that Necromancy spells with a base DC of 31(!) is nothing to sneeze at since that's 7 higher than the Old Mage's.

Though It would have been wonderfully "Meta" to just give the Simbul 30 Sorcerer levels, I think if she is played correctly she is much deadlier with her access to every spell of 5th level and below. Add the feat they never flushed out for her, Epic Spellcasting, and its a wash for just about any mortal facing her.

Sam
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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

325 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2019 :  22:51:16  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always wanted to re-stat the Realms NPCs using the 3.5 rules, not so much to make them broken but to make them more fun, 3.5 had so many fun things, and a bit more accurate. So that characters who have certain combat moves or acrobatic maneuvers or characters that should have spell mantles or similar abilities would have them listed their stat blocks so as to jog my memory to use them. Even writing up custom abilities to the NPC, I noticed 4E started doing that often giving monsters abilities some were even encounter specific, so the giant kitchen assistant had "Throw Pots and Pans" which also deafened and the cook had "Spill the Soup" which created an area hazard. Maybe one day.

As far as who can beat who in a fight pretend roll some dice and oh what's this a critical with a special item El gave her?!? Oh she doesn't talk about what she had to do to get that particular item.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6820 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  00:23:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose it's useful to have stats for reference, let you see how Nearly-Godlike Epic Big Name Characters measure up to other characters.

Not sure why such characters would ever need to interact with PCs in any fashion which requires dice rolling. That's the role of lesser NPCs who have stat blocks the PCs can more realistically challenge.

By giving things combat stats you're implying that players are expected to (eventually or just theoretically) defeat these things in combat.

[/Ayrik]
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

893 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2019 :  02:41:07  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

What George said.

However, if you really need to have a game mechanics explanation for this kind of stuff I suggest the hard route of rewriting ... basically all named NPCs of FR that aren't pure spellcasters because they were made before 90% of the splatbooks, are nonsensically (for 3/3.5E) multiclassed and so have what might be called "sub-optimal builds".

Personally I wouldn't bother unless is the Big Bad of your campaign and you really need stats.



Even the spellcasters are horribly built. Look at Szass Tam, the 29th level wizard with an Int of 22, or the Simbul.



See, your talking about 22 Int as if that's stupid. Note the 20 Wis and 20 Cha that go along with it. The guy has a mind like a steel trap. I would advise that Necromancy spells with a base DC of 31(!) is nothing to sneeze at since that's 7 higher than the Old Mage's.

Though It would have been wonderfully "Meta" to just give the Simbul 30 Sorcerer levels, I think if she is played correctly she is much deadlier with her access to every spell of 5th level and below. Add the feat they never flushed out for her, Epic Spellcasting, and its a wash for just about any mortal facing her.

Sam



At 29th level? Yes, Szass is stupid. His nevromantic DC is wrong, since the updated Red Wizard does not boost DCs.

Starting with 18 Int, Szass can hit Int 40 with ease by 29th level. Any wizard PC of his level is going to crack Szass like an egg with his current build.

18 base 2 lich 7 levels 5 inherent 3 age 6 item = 41 Int
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2019 :  17:14:38  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

At 29th level? Yes, Szass is stupid. His nevromantic DC is wrong, since the updated Red Wizard does not boost DCs.

Starting with 18 Int, Szass can hit Int 40 with ease by 29th level. Any wizard PC of his level is going to crack Szass like an egg with his current build.

18 base 2 lich 7 levels 5 inherent 3 age 6 item = 41 Int



OK, I'm giong to just throw out there that whatever "they" did to his Necromantic DC is a nerf I dont accept. He was statted out in 3.5 and remains that way, 4E DESTROYED anything resembling D&D, and 5 is a broken attempt to fix that. Your also looking at him like he was a PC who was Min/Maxing, he isn't. I tell you what, stay in 3.5 and make your PC, buy your Magic Items under the normal rules for Epic Characters, and we can see who comes out on top. It could be fun. :)


I would also like to note you are calling Khelban, Alustriel, The Simbul, Learel, and your average Old Silver Dragon, all of whom have IQs rolling around 200 to 220, dummies. I get that the 3.5 NPCs seem to not be stated like any PC brought up through those rules, but they had to go through the process of being dragged screaming through the Edition evolution, randomly losing levels, powers, feats and spells, just to gain them back then lose them again.Give the guy credit for not just casting Plane Shift and moving to Pathfinder
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

893 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2019 :  15:03:23  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He was statted out in 3e. When the Red Wizard was revamped in 3.5e, all those DCs became caster level bonuses. It doesn't help that he has 7 superfluous RW levels that could have gone to archmage and his base wizard class.
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2019 :  15:39:14  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

He was statted out in 3e. When the Red Wizard was revamped in 3.5e, all those DCs became caster level bonuses. It doesn't help that he has 7 superfluous RW levels that could have gone to archmage and his base wizard class.



Well then, if they nerfed, I agree that's good reason to change those classes. He was built the way he was because of the rules, if the rules change so should he. Make those wizard levels if ya like, I wouldn't expand the archmage beyond what he already has. The issue here was calling him stupid, which he is not, and understanding that there is a reason he was statted the way he was, and when Editions change by the whim of a corporation, the NPCs often take a hit. So.. play him in the Edition he was statted in, in this case as LordofBones has said 3.0, and then look down your nose on him. I mean for Tyrs sake look at El in 4.0--19th level controller--He's not an NPC at this point, he's a bookend.
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