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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 27 Aug 2017 :  21:43:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just found a quote from way back in Dragon 172.


quote:

Halaster and his former apprentices all honor a nonaggression pact with Shradin and his shady port, some out of respect for his power and some from fear of the same. Strangely enough, Halaster honors the pact out of friendship. Shradin, an old comrade and contemporary from the fading lands of Netheril, impressed his fellow wizard in his mastery of the necromantic art, becoming one of few beings to have met (nay, exceeded) Halaster.s expectations.





So Halaster is a comrade and contemporary of Shradin Mulophor who was a wizard of some ability from Netheril.

So Halaster has been in both Netheril and Imaskar. under various guises. Then he heads to Shoon and then to the Savage Frontier.

That guy has been around quite a bit. Now I'm wondering why. Given George's take on the Jergal and the Imaskarcana being Nether Scrolls I'm wondering if Halaster hasn't been trying to track them down.

Has he been to Myth Drannor I wonder.

Is there a scroll or two in Undermountain. Were there any in Calimshan.


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  03:01:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see that as saying Halaster was ever in Netheril. It says Shradin was from Netheril -- not that they were friends there.

It's certainly possible, even likely that Halaster spent at least a little time in Netheril -- but simply knowing someone from there doesn't mean he was there himself.

I'd call Big Al and the Sage comrades and contemporaries of mine... But both are on the other side of an ocean from me, and I've never visited either shore.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Aug 2017 03:03:47
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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  04:12:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, there was another quote that I found somewhere that hinted at Halaster 'coming from Netheril', which at first you think, "well we know that isn't true", but then, the way it was worded it didn't say he originated[ from there. This is why I think Halaster spent some time among the Netherese. In fact, if he did, I would hazard to guess that he probably saw through the Terraseer as well -
the Imaskari ALSO fought Phaerimm (and beat them handily), had Sarrukh nearby (Okoth), and learned 'magical secrets' from another Creator Race - the Fey - who are the only one (aside from humans) that didn't participate in the creation of the Nether scrolls in the first place. So, in other words, stuff that the Netherese were just learning to deal with was 'ancient history' by Imaskari standards.

I actually peg Halaster as the founder of Thaeravel, but thats pure homebrew. After Netheril ate that Kingdom (which was the real 'Realm of the Sorcerer Kings'), he may have stuck around for awhile. He may have even been a teacher of Telemont and Larloch (after all, Larloch must 'know him' form somewhere, right?) Thus, the 'Land of Alabaster Towers' was an enclave of Imaskari Shadow-Magic users, who were experimenting far from the eyes of their own empire.

EDIT:
I was wrong - that IS the same quote - the part about them being 'contemporaries'. I've even brought it up here before, many, many years ago.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2017 17:40:10
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  10:54:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cant say i put much stock in the imaskari and fey magic link. They way i see it the fey races do not band together to form nations or codify magical teachings, they are whimsical and independent.

However i think all the races likely learned their first steps into magic use from the fey, the dancing rituals that korreds and satyr perform are likely to have been witnessed by many primitives over the years who then try and copy it. The music that accompanies the rituals likewise.

I dont think the fey actively tried to teach anyone anything, they just didnt stop people watching if they were found (and no one interrupted the ritual), and maybe even helped them mimic the dance and singing and music a little bit.

Shamanism is the fey magic, the beginnings of likely all races magical use (netheril definitely started there). Its just that i reckon only the elves stuck with it (since they are fey related) and all other races abandoned it for the nether scrolls.

Perhaps the imaskari actually stole their original magic from elves. I just dont see a fey grouping of any sort working out.


As for Halaster, i wonder if he rose to archmage in netheril. The archmages undoubtedly all new each other, it was like a little gentlemens club where all the members try to murder each other.

As he was in netheril at some point he must have known about the sargauth enclave (otherwise its a huge coincidence that he picked to go to a netherese ruin). What is it there that he is looking for. I forget what the enclave was researching there in the first place.

Also what was so important in that tower he had in the shoon lands (was it in torsil). Why base his tower there, what was he looking for in calimshan/tethyr.

Given that he had the power and knowledge to go anywhere and do just about anything i have to wonder why he picked those places to set up shop. Was it just that he was looking for the nether scrolls or is it something even juicier (i do hope this doesnt head where i suspect its going to).

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  11:36:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And how did he get his name of blackcloak.

Also was he Hilather in Imaskar.

He may well be Halaster in Netheril sonce Shradin knows him as Halaster

He appears to be Hilather in Shoon again.

Then he's Halaster in Waterdeep.

Why the name changing. Does he not want anyone to know Hilather and Halaster are the same person.


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sleyvas
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  13:35:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

And how did he get his name of blackcloak.

Also was he Hilather in Imaskar.

He may well be Halaster in Netheril sonce Shradin knows him as Halaster

He appears to be Hilather in Shoon again.

Then he's Halaster in Waterdeep.

Why the name changing. Does he not want anyone to know Hilather and Halaster are the same person.





Considering he was making demonshields, maybe he felt like a change of name and location might change his rep a bit. He may have been being hounded by folks to make things.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  15:29:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, ive been thinking about the demonshields lately and the demonshield in particular.

Who would be annoyed at Hilather. I can think of one being who may have been imprisoned for an awfully long time.

Anyone have to hand the date that Hilather abandoned his tower.

Im also wondering what in particular about the near mythal of illefarns capital that drove him mad, and is it linked to the promenade.

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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  17:52:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halaster also may have been known as 'Sargauth' in Netheril. Its hinted-at that the name originated from whomever created the enclave, but no-one remembers who that was. Thus, Halaster is in Netheril for a time, leaves and founds Sargauth enclave, something happens to him (perhaps connected to the Fall of Netheril?) and he is 'missing' for a long time, and then he returns to Undermountain to become 'Halaster Blackcloak', Uber-Nutjob of the Underhalls. 'Blackcloak' may just be an appellation applied to him after he "became Shar's creature". It would make perfect sense that his 'deep connection' to Sargauth's Mythalar is because he is the one that created it (it may even very well function as a phylactory for him).


And I completely left-out the part where I believe he left Imaskar (with his disciples) 'under a cloud of suspicion' and built himself a fine, Alabaster Tower on a vast mesa to the far northwest, with some interesting power sources nearby (whatever hit the Tunlands and turned it into a crater). Unfortunately, his northern neighbors became jerks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2017 17:53:48
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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  18:03:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the fey link to the imaskari, its canon, but in a non-specific sort of way (Ususi finds some ancient reliefs depicting the Fey giving the Imaskari something).

My thoughts here is that the Fey (being who/what they are) were probably giving the Imaskari some magic (or artifact) that would eventually turn into a 'Monkeys Paw' for them, and that would cause the imaskari to come into conflict with something else the Fey didn't want to confront themselves - possibly the Elder Evils.

Fey may seem completely capricious on the outside, but a lot of that is feigned, especially amongst the higher-ups. They prefer 'indirect' methods of dealing with things (part of the reason why I think their 'High magic' taps into the butterfly effect - tiny little change nets HUGE results. They are the ultimate environmentalists - efficiency/expediency is everything to them). They may have seen some sort of huge threat looming on the horizon (not so much 'precognitive', as it is their ability to simply see patterns in things, including history and societies), and figured the best way to handle it would be to throw the Imaskari in front of it (anyone familiar with Larry Niven's works, especially the Ringworld series, will recognize this as a preferred tactic of the Puppeteers).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2017 19:12:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  18:20:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

As he was in netheril at some point he must have known about the sargauth enclave (otherwise its a huge coincidence that he picked to go to a netherese ruin). What is it there that he is looking for. I forget what the enclave was researching there in the first place.




He didn't pick a Netherese ruin to go to. He built his tower by what is now Mount Waterdeep, and only later ventured underground, into the Melairbode. And it was only after pushing further from there that he eventually found the large cavern that was once a Netherese enclave.

So considering that he didn't go directly there and also didn't make it part of his holdings, yes, it appears that it was purely a coincidence that he decided to make his home over a series of underground delvings that had a connection to a former Netherese enclave.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  18:26:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Im also wondering what in particular about the near mythal of illefarns capital that drove him mad, and is it linked to the promenade.



Absolutely nothing about the mythal drove him made. Why would it?

Ed has said that Halaster's madness was "induced and exacerbated by Weave overload; he was trying to maintain too many wards and "hanging" spells (waiting to be triggered) and scrying ports and gates/portals - - at the same time as he suffered spell backlashes and mind damage from spell-duels" and also due to Shar's attempted influence - "Halaster’s aged, busy, brilliantly-magic-creative mind couldn’t simultaneously handle mastery of both Weave and Shadow Weave, and so he was losing his sanity"

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 28 Aug 2017 :  20:31:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well at the mention of shar im going to have to ignore that bit. I can deal with priests of shar trying to make him mad or just his trying to much making him mad but no gods.

I wonder if Halaster was less mad (even slightly) during Stardock. That would be enough for me to link his madness to the mythal.

Anyone know when the promenade came into existence and where the icky slime presence came from.

I need to review my gargauth notes again. Im getting an idea involving an imprisoned archdevil that manages to escape temporarily through possession of items and people. One of those people is possessed for so long he becomes a mirror image of the being in question.

Of course the big artefact ends up being lost to calishite forces and taken back where it is buried in torsil.

Hilather is involved but i think only as a bit part playing catchup and trying to stop the release of a big bad he had a tiny part in imprisoning.

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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Aug 2017 :  00:53:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said, if he was 'Sargauth' in Netheril, and created the mythalar himself, it may have been damaged by Netheril's Fall, which drove him away for a time. More likely (since the enclave seems to out-survived its builder, since it's name stuck but info about him/her is 'lost') he 'went elsewhere', which seems to be his pattern (especially if we toss in my own homebrewed lore) for time, and then the Weave collapsed (thanks to Karsus) when he wasn't around, and it took some time to find his way back (and we can postulate just about anything for that absence, including - but not limited to - Being stuck in another plane {Ravenloft?}, being 'trapped' bu something on/in Toril itself, or even that he was killed during Nethril's fall, and it took awhile for the damaged mythalar a sargauth to regenerate him (if he truly built it, and if he also built-in a phylactory-like contingency.

Theoretical Timeline: BLUE is non-canon material.
-8350 DR - Beginning of Imaskari civilization
-7600 DR - The drow empire of Telantiwar falls with the collapse of the great cavern of Bhaerynden. Drow refugees claim lesser caverns to the north, south, east and west of the newly formed Great Rift.
-8123 DR - Imaskari artificers create their first permanent extradimensional space. Their fascination with such magic soon transforms Imaskari city design.
-6422 DR - rampaging krakentua razed the Imperial City of Inupras, forcing the Imaskari to abandon their ancient capital.
-4730 DR - A suspicious plague decimates Imaskari cities.
-4370 DR to -3920 - The period of Shartra, or darkness, in the Imaskar civilization. Hilather is born during this time.
-4366 DR - Imaskari artificers open twin gates to another world and magically abduct thousands of humans to serve as slaves.
-3900 DR(?) - The Imaskar receive a gift from The Fey, who then retreat from the world once again.
-3891 DR - Under orders from Lord Artificer Omanond, Imaskari artificers create the Imaskarcana—seven items in which the empire’s immense magical lore is recorded for all eternity. Halaster is assigned to the object corresponding to drawing magical energy from other planes, like the Feywild.
-3858 DR - Citizens of the Narrow Sea fishing villages of Fenwick, Gers, Gilan, Gustaf, Moran, Nauseef, and Janick combine for mutual protection, forming the Alliance of Seventon. The Netheril Year (NY) calendar is created to celebrate the union.
-3829 DR - Lord Hilather observes a growing threat to the far north, while scrying the region for powerful sources of magic. Using newly-discovered extra-planer magics, he creates a Shadow-clone (self-willed and capable of operating while the primary is still alive) to leave in his place, while he moves the majority of his operations to that area. He begins calling himself 'Halaster' at this time.
–3827 DR - Nether the Elder is assassinated, and Nether the Younger takes control of a new Netherese democracy.
–3772 DR - Death of Nether the Younger.
-3770 DR - The Dwarf Realm of Oghrann (Sunset Mtns.) falls. Beset on all sides by enemies—lizardfolk, nomadic human tribes, wemics, and the usual bugbears, trolls, and goblinkin races—the realm was swept away by disease and war even before the dwarves’ more northerly kingdoms fell.
-3650 DR - Halaster (Hilather) notices growing potent magic in the Netherese, but also suspects there are 'darker' outside influences at-play, things even more ancient and enigmatic then the elves. By this time many of his students have gone-on to build their own 'Alabaster Towers' in the region, and local Talfir tribes have started to refer to them as the 'Sorcerer Kings'. Eventually, this becomes truth as settlements start to form around these towers, slowly growing into the republic of Thaer-Avel ('Twilight Lands' in ancient Imaskari). The name is chosen by Halaster, referring to his belief his new realm will be the 'border between the darkness and the light'.
-3700 DR - discovering castles of Cloud Giants floating above Thaeravel and lands nearby, Halaster enters into an alliance with the giants. Soon, more 'floating citadels' dot the skies above Thaeravel, attracting other flying sentient species, including a handful of dragons. This 'cloud kingdom' above is given equal status with those below them.
–3392 DR - Netherese arcanists overrun Thaeravel, Land of Alabaster Towers. In the process, they rip many new spells from the minds of Thaeravelian sorcerers. Halaster escapes and disguises himself and begins to call himself 'Sargauth', a minor 'Sorcerer King' who died during the initial assault. He enters into an agreement with the invaders - he will share his knowledge of shadow-magic if they promise to accept the remaining Thaeravelites as full citizens of Netheril. The southern borders of Netheril are extended, and what is modern-day Goblin Marches and the Stonelands becomes part of its core domain. As part of this agreement, the floating keeps of Thaeraval become part of Netheril as well.
-3390 DR to 2488 DR - Halaster (as Sargauth) remains with the Netherese, learning all he can from them. In turn, he teaches powerful Shadow Magic to the first Lord Shadow and Larloch, amongst others. He periodically returns to Imaskar to 'update' his clone. Toward the end of this period Larloch begins to suspect Sargauth isn't who he says he's, and tries to surreptitiously glean Imaskari translocational magical knowledge from him.
-3234 DR - The Imaskari outpost known as Metos is founded in the Methwood.
-3000 DR(?) - the arrival of the Anoque (refugees) in the region of what is today the Quoya desert. Recognizing the powerful and very different magics at their command, Imaskar works to fold them into the empire as full citizens, rather than trying to conquer them in a costly war. Eventually the NE portion of the empire is recognized as the 'Upper kingdom'. In time, Expeditions by the Anoque east and south soon expand the borders of Imaskar's eastern holdings. The indigenous Haltai and southern Ang peoples are subjugated.
-2650 DR - Hilather (Halaster's Shadow-Clone) founds the city of Bhaluin as an academy for Shadow magic.
-2489 DR - The Mulan gods show up and they are big, fat meany heads. Imaskari civilization comes to a sudden and violent end.
-2488 DR - Lord Hilather (Halaster's Clone) escapes destruction. Fearing the Mulan Gods would be able to track the movements of his half-soul, he decides not to kill himself and return to his other half (thus jeopardizing the half they didn't know about). Instead, he places himself in stasis beneath the Giant's Belt Mountains (where he becomes a normal clone until activated again).
-2487 DR - devastated by the obliteration of his homeland, Sargauth (Halaster) withdraws from Netherese social life and becomes a recluse, returning to his Alabaster Tower in southern Netheril. It is suspected that it was at this time - when his thoughts were darkest - that he had turned to Shar.
-2400 DR to 800 DR Halaster becomes a Planeswalker, and although his focus is primarily on the Shadowfell, he visits many planes and worlds during this period.
-800 DR to 700 DR - 'Sargauth' returns to Netheril amongst much fanfare, and announces that he is on to a way to improve the functionality of the mythalars, giving them some of the same powers as the Elven Mythals. He spends a century studying under Iouluam, before gathering a group of like-minded Arcanists to help him study (abandoned) Elven Mythals.
-700 DR - An order of powerful Netherese wizards (lead by Sargauth/Halaster) takes up residence amid an unexcavated section of Melairbode, in what is now known as the third level of Undermountain. The name of the outpost is lost to time, though some scholars refer to it as the Sargauth Enclave
-339 DR - Karsus cast his spell and the weave Collapses (temporarily). Sargauth collapses and Halaster's spirit is absorbed into the Mantle, which activates his clone in the Giant's belt Mountains. Having not had physical contact (so it can be updated) with Halaster in quite some time, it begins to try and figure out what happened.
-338 DR - Many of the Floating Citadels of the Cloud Giants survive Netheril's fall, being tied to eldritch rune Magic, rather than The Weave. With Netheril gone, the remaining beings of 'the Cloud Lands' unite to destroy the Netherese survivor-states, calling themselves Avaeraether. The mutual war of destruction lasts for several centuries, until the former Netherese figure-out a way to dispel the eldritch Giant Magic that holds their Citadels aloft.
160 DR Halaster (The Clone) shows up in the Underhalls and begins to take-over.


Shadow Clone (lev.9, Necromancy) - This spells allows the creation of duplicate of the caster that is semi-permanent, in much the same way deities can create avatars. The duplicate (or 'clone') is sentient and independent - in fact, neither is a 'copy', but rather, they're a single person split in two. The double is permanent until dispelled, and upon 'rejoining' all memories (experience) is intact, so that the remaining individual will be aware of everything that transpired with both. A Caster wishing to keep his clone for extended periods will simply dispel and recast as needed, so as to 'update' both halves of his personality. Several caveats - both halves only have half the HP of the original (rounding down), and while the spell is being maintained (it doesn't require concentration), the 9th level spell slot is unavailable (to either 'half'). Both may cast spells normally, but it will also cost the spell lev.in HP for each spell cast (HP heals normally, so this can be offset with potions, etc). It is very tiring casting magic from two locations at once. If either 'half' is killed, it functions just as if it was dispelled (so the other half WILL know what happened to it).*


*Obviously, when magic was disrupted (when the Weave collapsed), things did not function normally, and this is why the 'clone' was confused - it hadn't received the other half's memories (but knew the other half had died, else the contingencies in place would not have awoken him).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2017 01:06:41
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2017 :  03:15:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal


I wonder if Halaster was less mad (even slightly) during Stardock. That would be enough for me to link his madness to the mythal.


Why does it have to be linked to the mythal, which hasn't affected anyone else the same way? Especially when you've still got a viable explanation from Ed, even leaving out Shar...

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Anyone know when the promenade came into existence and where the icky slime presence came from.



The Promenade is a temple. And the slimy thing was Ghaundaur. Given your dislike of gods, I can't see why you'd be interested in either.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 29 Aug 2017 :  07:10:57  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The promenade was built by that drow chosen to protect against the slimes if i recall rightly. So im just wondering how the slimes got there.

I reckon Halaster is mad only in undermountain because he has linked himself to its mythal.

Now if during his purge of drow the desparate dark elves called upon the power of ghaunadaur to aid them and got a lot more than they bargained for (an avatar that twisted the mythal and keeps reforming itself in the promenade). Halaster was linked to that mythal and a bit eccentric from doing too much but the mythal warping mad him really insane.

No gods involved, just people.


Im just wondering why sargauth and why undermountain. Ill have to go and check what the original purpose of sargauth enclave was. Halaster was a brilliant mind, i dont believe he did anything without a purpose or reason.

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Brian R. James
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Posted - 29 Aug 2017 :  15:59:33  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for the fey link to the imaskari, its canon, but in a non-specific sort of way (Ususi finds some ancient reliefs depicting the Fey giving the Imaskari something).
I reinforced this depiction from Bruce's novel by showing that ancient Imaskar had an alliance with Sarifal. This is reflected by the bukhara spires (of Imaskari artifice), constructed in the western Highlands overlooking Myrloch in the Moonshae Isles.

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  16:58:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not for nothing, but "The Fey" could have been giving them smallpox blankets or the like :P
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 10 Sep 2017 :  23:09:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True. As I've stated elsewhere, I think whatever they were giving the Imaskari, it was of the "Monkey's Paw" variety.

Faery#1: "Hey, I see you dudes like portal-magic! Here, here are some cool addresses you guys can dial into those things!"
Imaskari: "Gee thanks, weird, pointy-eared fella!"
{as the walk away}
Faery#2: "Ummmm... you think maybe we should have told them there are elder Evils on the other side of those Gates?"
Faery#1: "Ohhhh, I'm sure they'll find out soon enough."
Faery#3: "Nyuk nyuk nyuk."

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Im just wondering why sargauth and why undermountain. Ill have to go and check what the original purpose of sargauth enclave was. Halaster was a brilliant mind, i dont believe he did anything without a purpose or reason.
Or maybe its because Undermountain is literally UNDER the ruins of Illefarn, perhaps the most portal-connected kingdom in all of Elfdom?

And we all know how portals make Halaster "go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Sep 2017 23:10:38
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