Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Demoncysts and the Sundering
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2017 :  16:03:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Something just occurred to me, and I wanted to just float it.

First off, I want to note something that I saw in the SCAG which is messed up. Narfell was demons, not devils.

"In Narfell, skilled riders and archers hunt, raid, and are gradually reclaiming their heritage as a great nation of mages who treated with devils. "

Anyway, we had the Sundering, and portions of Abeir stayed in Toril. Portions of Abeir returned to Abeir. The Warlock Knights of Vaasa still exist according to the SCAG, so in theory Telos didn't return to Abeir (which I'm fine with). I actually like the warlock knights concept.

However, we have this weird thing in the surrounding territory wherein there are these portions of the abyss that have "bonded" to Toril at the end of Narfell's empire. They're called demoncysts and they are the "Hidden Layer" of the abyss. We also have that at the start of the spellplague, the abyss was cast into the elemental chaos.

So, after the sundering, the Abyss is apparently back in the Outer Planes (according to the 5e DMG). What if during the time between the Spellplague and the Sundering these demoncysts extended themselves into Abeir. In essence they touch on both Abeir and Toril, creating pathways between the two worlds that traverse the abyss.

What to do with this? Well, what if some of these demoncysts get taken over by folk of Abeir and they use this as a means to perform lightning like raids on Toril? Could it be that, in Abeir, Telos was guarded over by an order dedicated to stopping people using the ironfell that is its body. Maybe Dun-Tharos beneath the Great Dale is filled with factions of fey, Abeirans, and demons that are all in conflict with one another. Maybe these Abeirans have come over to try and stop the warlock knights. Or maybe these Abeirans are the exact opposite. Maybe they are the "children" of Telos, and they've come over to help the warlock knights.

What if Eltab is using these demoncysts as a means to invade Abeir, and some Abeirans have come to Toril to try and invade the Citadel of Conjurers to destroy the Adamantine Binding there? If the demoncysts have indeed copied to Abeir, what might be the implications of that if they were successful?

There's also a known demoncyst beneath Thay that feeds the river Eltar. What implications might there be for this with Thay. There was still the conflict with Eminence of Araunt, which wanted to free undead. Might this group still pursue their unholy crusade across this boundary?





From Champions of Ruin on Demoncysts
Eltab once ruled the 248th layer of the Abyss, known as The Hidden Layer. This terrible place is a vast wasteland of boulders and fissures, beset by constant electrical storms of incredible ferocity.

The howling wind, frequent lightning strikes, and never-ending torrential rain make it inhospitable to most creatures, with the notable exception of demons. Nevertheless, it is home to a riotous array of extraordinarily deadly plant life, including forests of assassin vines, bloodthorns, ironmaws, and viper trees.

For more than fifteen centuries, Eltab’s Abyssal kingdom has been fragmented into ever-changing fiefdoms. Eltab’s balor lieutenants
battle endlessly to seize control of his vacated kingdom. The most powerful of the balors is Ndulu (32 HD advanced balor), the general of a demonic host banished back to the Abyss by the Paladin Princes of Impiltur at the Battle of Moaning Gorge (786#731;DR).

Since the Year of the Stone Giant (–160 DR), fragments of the Hidden Layer, known as demoncysts, have lain buried beneath the lands claimed by the last Nentyarch of Narfell. Somehow, in the process of summoning and binding Eltab to their will, the last Nentyarch’s demonbinders inextricably linked Abyssal fragments of the Hidden Layer to the lands under the sway of the Nentyarch, creating little islands of the Abyss throughout northeastern Faerûn, buried just beneath the surface.

Demoncysts of the “Demonlands” are typically 100 or so feet
in diameter. Conditions within each demoncyst mirror that of the
Hidden Layer, but the environment within a demoncyst does not
usually interact with the surrounding terrestrial environment. (At
least one demoncyst in the eastern Thaymount bleeds Abyss-tainted
water from the River of Blood into the River Eltar, thanks to the
actions of the first Zulkir of Conjuration.) All known demoncysts
lie underground, so reaching a demoncyst usually requires digging
or passage through a tunnel of some sort. Creatures and objects
can pass freely into or out of a demoncyst, but environmental conditions within or outside of a demoncyst cannot push a creature or object into or out of a demoncyst.

As a result, a demoncyst typically resembles an odd-shaped cavern with
a wholly different environment than the surrounding earth or open spaces. Although most of the undiscovered demoncysts lie beneath the
forests of the Great Dale or the Thaymount, a few lie undiscovered beneath the lands of Damara, Impiltur, the Priador, Thesk, and Vaasa. Many demoncysts contain imprisoned fiends, for, in the wake of Narfell’s fall, Nar demonbinders placed many calling diagrams (usually in the form of iron, bronze, or silver signs, as detailed in
Unapproachable East) within such planar pockets to hold demons they might later wish to unleash. When Impilturan settlers carved out the Great Dale in the 600s DR, they uncovered many such demoncysts and inadvertently freed many of the demons, half-fiends, and tieflings bound within during their subsequent explorations of these strange
“pocket planes.”

The largest demoncyst, known as the Hall of the Hidden Throne, lies in
the depths of the Citadel of Conjurers. Over 500 feet in diameter, the Hall of the Hidden Throne contains the throne room of Eltab’s long-abandoned palace, wrenched from the Abyss by the Narfelli demonbinders when they fi rst summoned Eltab to Faerûn in the Year of the Stone Giant (–160 DR). Inscribed on the floor in front of the Hall of the Hidden Throne is the Adamantine Binding, an extremely powerful calling circle that ties Eltab and the Hidden Layer to the eastern Realms. Only the legendary sword Hadryllis can shatter this binding. Until such time as the binding is destroyed, Eltab can only be banished to a demoncyst and cannot depart the Realms. Moreover, for as long as the binding persists, the demoncysts of the Hidden Layer are inextricably tied to lands once claimed by ancient Narfell.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1037 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  02:57:01  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I understand it Narfell dealt with all fiends, not just one type.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  13:33:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

As I understand it Narfell dealt with all fiends, not just one type.



Primarily, they dealt with demons. They interbred with demons. That being said, they may have occasionally called devils as well, but given the blood war hate between demons and devils, it would probably have to be a special reason. Now, I definitely could see the Narfellians using other fiends though (slaadi, daemons, etc...)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

RDS
Seeker

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  19:19:18  Show Profile Send RDS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myself I'm not reading the demoncysts as transient cysts. More like cancer cells lingering under the soil that are jails or holding cells for demonic forces filled with the environment of the Hidden Layer they spawned from.

RDS
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4788 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  12:21:45  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone think that Fraz-Urb'luu would be able to manipulate devils just like he does demons?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3292 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  13:08:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course. Even the very wise cannot see all outcomes. Nobody is omnipotent. Everyone makes mistakes.
All you have to do is figure out what motivates people and then present them with opportunities that they cant help but exploit (as long as they dont know someone is orchestrating the opportunity). Devils want souls and to spread evil. Should be possible to manipulate based on those motivations.


I had an idea for making the demoncysts just like a cancer and that they are spreading. Hard rock impedes progress as do things like soargars wards or extreme environments but eventually the cysts tendrils adapt and spread.

By 1370s DR i had the first demoncyst appear in the Vast region.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Edited by - dazzlerdal on 15 Jun 2017 13:39:26
Go to Top of Page

BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
194 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  14:15:15  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First off, I want to note something that I saw in the SCAG which is messed up. Narfell was demons, not devils.

"In Narfell, skilled riders and archers hunt, raid, and are gradually reclaiming their heritage as a great nation of mages who treated with devils. "


There may have been some sub-kingdoms or successor states of Narfell that dealt primarily with devils or even were ruled by them. For example, the kingdom of Yhalvia, a part of Narfell, was ruled by a baatezu. This is part of a 4th-edition retcon, however.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Bureaucrat of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3292 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  14:33:24  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That 4e quote caused no end of problems. Especially given that thakorsils seat was originally supposed to have come from another world.

I got round it by making Yhalvia a place on another road that could be travelled to seamlessly via a portal faerie crossroads type thing (the traveller has no idea he is crossing to another world). So narfell at one point actually conquered land on another planet.

That is why larloch was so interested in narfell and why the demons and devils were fighting over it because it was a bit of a crossroads between worlds.

Unfortunately the fall of netheril and death of the weave 1.0 shunted those crossroads out of alignment and they dont work anymore.

At least thats how i reconciled the 4e and earlier lore.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Go to Top of Page

RDS
Seeker

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  17:22:50  Show Profile Send RDS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Of course. Even the very wise cannot see all outcomes. Nobody is omnipotent. Everyone makes mistakes.
All you have to do is figure out what motivates people and then present them with opportunities that they cant help but exploit (as long as they dont know someone is orchestrating the opportunity). Devils want souls and to spread evil. Should be possible to manipulate based on those motivations.


I had an idea for making the demoncysts just like a cancer and that they are spreading. Hard rock impedes progress as do things like soargars wards or extreme environments but eventually the cysts tendrils adapt and spread.

By 1370s DR i had the first demoncyst appear in the Vast region.



That is great idea. Several ways this could happen to allow them to break the restriction of Nar lands could be:
An unforeseen consequence of the 2nd Sundering or spellplague. Eltab's tampering even from his prison.
Demon worshiping cults could be going around the region breaking down or expanding the original Nar binding accident.

RDS
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2017 :  21:17:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does anyone think that Fraz-Urb'luu would be able to manipulate devils just like he does demons?

-- George Krashos




Speaking of Frazzy, I do love the NPC in Out of the Abyss.... its a quaggoth who THINKS he's an elven prince. I'm picturing playing it up like beauty and the beast.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4788 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  08:20:17  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My take is that the Nar have always been fiend lovers. Demons mostly, but groups and individuals ... dabbled. I then thought that maybe the non-demon fiend worshippers/summoners might be used as "cannon fodder" by the Nar military establishment in later times as the demon-worshipping element gained ascendancy, like the "penal battalions" in various wars throughout the RW ages. Just trying to stitch stuff together - and desperately trying to reconcile the novel "Frostfell".

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 16 Jun 2017 08:20:41
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3292 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  08:33:52  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ditch the novel if it is completely at odds with the lore. I take only the idea of the novel, the details are a narrative told by bards and therefore subject to the very unreliable narrator rule.


Oh and i like the idea of conscripted cannon fodder for norms

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Edited by - dazzlerdal on 16 Jun 2017 08:37:10
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  15:39:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My take is that the Nar have always been fiend lovers. Demons mostly, but groups and individuals ... dabbled. I then thought that maybe the non-demon fiend worshippers/summoners might be used as "cannon fodder" by the Nar military establishment in later times as the demon-worshipping element gained ascendancy, like the "penal battalions" in various wars throughout the RW ages. Just trying to stitch stuff together - and desperately trying to reconcile the novel "Frostfell".

-- George Krashos





Curiosity peaked.... what from frostfell dealt with the empire of Narfell? I can barely remember the plot... I just remember the eastern lythari being involved.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  15:48:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My take is that the Nar have always been fiend lovers. Demons mostly, but groups and individuals ... dabbled. I then thought that maybe the non-demon fiend worshippers/summoners might be used as "cannon fodder" by the Nar military establishment in later times as the demon-worshipping element gained ascendancy, like the "penal battalions" in various wars throughout the RW ages. Just trying to stitch stuff together - and desperately trying to reconcile the novel "Frostfell".

-- George Krashos





I once posited that the lythari in that novel were not the same as the lythari known elsewhere in the Realms; they had, at some point, had to swear fealty to that spirit thing with the funky name, and in return, they were tweaked to become what we saw in the novel.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

230 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  18:32:00  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ditch the novel if it is completely at odds with the lore. I take only the idea of the novel, the details are a narrative told by bards and therefore subject to the very unreliable narrator rule.



Dazzler, once again you hit the nail right on the head... The novels are most unreliable narrators, sensationalized retellings by Bards, based on the invariably biased memories of how the so-called "protagonists" wish to be remembered.

I mean seriously, we know that Elminster is willing to tell anyone and everyone that Volo is a charlatan and liar, and that none of Volo's writings are reliable... Yet we know Volo's Guides are some of the most reliable canon published, and we know Elminster is willing to say or do anything for the chance to hook-up with Mystra... We should be looking for verification from secondary sources on anything that Elminster claims to have done, seen, or heard, in any of his novels!

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  19:35:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My take is that the Nar have always been fiend lovers. Demons mostly, but groups and individuals ... dabbled. I then thought that maybe the non-demon fiend worshippers/summoners might be used as "cannon fodder" by the Nar military establishment in later times as the demon-worshipping element gained ascendancy, like the "penal battalions" in various wars throughout the RW ages. Just trying to stitch stuff together - and desperately trying to reconcile the novel "Frostfell".

-- George Krashos





One thing to bear in mind about the idea of comparing them to penal battalions. Demons don't die a true death if summoned and killed on the material plane, so a lot of them probably LIKE the idea that they get summoned to go out and kill creatures. It would be kind of like a vacation. What they wouldn't like would be being told to come to the material plane and sit around guarding something.

Devils on the other hand are more likely to want to get paid somehow for their service. Granted, they may be forced to serve, but betting that it was more like when they needed a devil with a certain feature set.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  19:38:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ditch the novel if it is completely at odds with the lore. I take only the idea of the novel, the details are a narrative told by bards and therefore subject to the very unreliable narrator rule.



Dazzler, once again you hit the nail right on the head... The novels are most unreliable narrators, sensationalized retellings by Bards, based on the invariably biased memories of how the so-called "protagonists" wish to be remembered.

I mean seriously, we know that Elminster is willing to tell anyone and everyone that Volo is a charlatan and liar, and that none of Volo's writings are reliable... Yet we know Volo's Guides are some of the most reliable canon published, and we know Elminster is willing to say or do anything for the chance to hook-up with Mystra... We should be looking for verification from secondary sources on anything that Elminster claims to have done, seen, or heard, in any of his novels!



Yeah, right like something called silver fire actually exists... sheesh, what are they gonna expect us to believe next? Some kind of thing called "spellfire"?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3292 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  20:01:32  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Eds books are always in keeping with the lore of the setting so no need to discount them. Plus as the settings creator he should get special treatment for being Ed, an all round nice and awesome guy.

But that book about the blade kingdoms with laser beams, the netheril books, Evermeets history (only because elaine said the book should not be taken as historical fact) and any other novel that gets crucial details wrong or portrays people or places incorrectly.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000