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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
583 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2019 :  22:18:08  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Is anyone else curious about this period of Faerunian history as it was spoken of in the first entry of the GHotR? With no elves, humans, dwarves, orcs or even it seems, the Creator Races as of yet, was the world just a big dead (or with little sentient life) snowball? What wielded power if anything? At this point my only guess would be aberrations like the aboleth or phaerimm but that seems lacking. I’d like to take my players through a bit of an adventure through time - ergo my question.

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
235 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2019 :  17:30:09  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humans and all Creator Races is native, so I'm sure they would exist somehow on Toril in Ice Ages. Possibly before they ascended to higher civilisation, early or late stoneage Sarrukh, Aerae and Batrachi.
The issue is the fey. if the theories on this on other forums is correct, the Leshay might be the Fey race. According to the yutuber AJ Pickett (I'm shure he's here, don't know his nick here though), got some lore in a youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYezpKCaPrM
Take it as his take on it. According to it, the LeShay actually blew up their entire existence, possibly making finding them impossible.

Remember we humans become "anatomically modern" aka: Homo Sapiens 350k years ago in Real Life, so all Forgotten Realms creator races, imho, would be somewhere in the "Stone Age" category. Possibly with quite interesting cultures fitting their era, be it hunter gatherers or farmers with Priest Kings. Just my thoughts.

Edited by - Starshade on 30 Jul 2019 17:30:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2019 :  18:24:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm very curious about said era, and yes, there is NO information about this time. It might be safe to assume that the prior beings died out (prior to the arrival of the creator races), except for those beings that don't need to be given light and/or heat to live (such as elemental beings)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2019 :  22:22:50  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm very curious about said era, and yes, there is NO information about this time. It might be safe to assume that the prior beings died out (prior to the arrival of the creator races), except for those beings that don't need to be given light and/or heat to live (such as elemental beings)



Hmm, I think there IS actually something about this time in Lore, just not 'mortal' lore. Would this not be what happened when Shar started snuffing out the "lights of Selune". Chauntea had asked for warmth, got it, then started losing it again during the War of Light and Darkness. The only things I know of that have referenced themselves as being there is The Abolethic Sovereignty, but they dont really count years the same way that the Creator Races do, so all I can see is they were there before the Sundering.

Sam
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
583 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  02:24:00  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the wiki, there’s a bit about the Shadowed Age and Blue Age. Apparently, Dendar ate the original sun which is what essentially created “snowball Toril.”


So in this ancient ANCIENT history did we have a Far Realm thing going first before the gods? Then a blue age when all the strife went down between Shar and Selune and such, then a Shadowed Age leading into an Ice Age - and all this BEFORE the creator races?

Where does the god/primordial/betrayal of Ubtao fit in this? What about Ouroboros?

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Edited by - Seethyr on 31 Jul 2019 02:29:48
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  02:29:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may be taking about the Shadow Epoch, when Dendar ate the old sun, and the lack of heat and light killed most life in Toril.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  02:38:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

On the wiki, there’s a bit about the Shadowed Age and Blue Age. Apparently, Dendar ate the original sun which is what essentially created “snowball Toril.”


So in this ancient ANCIENT history did we have a Far Realm thing going first before the gods? Then a blue age when all the strife went down between Shar and Selune and such, then a Shadowed Age leading into an Ice Age - and all this BEFORE the creator races?

Where does the god/primordial/betrayal of Ubtao fit in this? What about Ouroboros?



The only source I know about this is the Abolethic Sovereignty novels, that talk about the kingdom of Xxiphu, when the original aboleths lived on Toril, but there is not a date for this.

As for Ubtao and Ouroboros, that is part of the Dawn War myths. So, this is even more difficult to place.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  13:22:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to note, one of the things that I had posited a long time ago was that in Toril's early history there were a LOT more spirit beings and when creatures died their spirits would be reborn in another form instead of transiting to an outer plane. This "soul energy" helped make many areas become very magical in a way like the telthors of Rashemen. In fact, a term that we came up with for the unapproachable east, the eastern wastes, and possibly even Kara-Tur were "the spirit lands". These "spirits" could have existed during this era despite lack of heat and light. They could have also been used like soul energy to empower magics of many sorts. Its possible that during/following this time fey beings like the night hags, as well as fiends, were drawn to Toril to "harvest" these spirit beings. Also, certain rare metals/minerals may naturally "capture" spirit energies like this (somewhat like how the mineral faerzress absorbs energy), and thus something akin to rudimentary ley lines or power foci may have formed (particularly around areas with asteroid strikes... gift of magic from Selune?...)

Along these lines, I have taken on the concept that the vestige from the Tome of Magic named "Chupoclops" (who was a giant spider "primordial" that ate spirit beings) was from Toril originally. He was one of the original inhabitants of the place that then becomes an underground cave city named "Bheuristahl" inhabited by hags with powers over darkness, cold, and necromancy (and which breed with the local ogres, trolls, and giants), as well as enslaving many goblins to their servitude from the feywild. "Bheuristahl" then became "Narathmault" with the drow of clan Sethomiir. That later became Dun-Tharos

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jul 2019 13:37:36
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4618 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  14:00:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tend to treat all the myths and legends as just that. They might be very loosely based on events but equally they be entirely fanciful accounts of fictional events coming from a peoples origin theory.


The ice age could have happened any time in the past, even we cannot narrow down our own ice age to more than a 10000 year period (millions of years ago).
The dendar thing eating the sun could just be an eclipse that got mixed up with the ice age because the sun provides warmth.

The dawn war could be equally fanciful, representing the mixing of peoples and an imagined war between their gods and heroes that could not be witnessed because gods dwell on the outer planes so could be entirely made up.

So what do we know. Ice ages destroy most of the life on a planet. That means what comes before the ice age can be entirely unrelated to the lifeforms after the ice age. Using aberrations seems a good idea to represent creatures that were wiped out by the ice age allowing lesser races to flourish, it also ties into the ability own myth of having existed since the beginning of time.


My own theory is that the spheres are fractured remains of an original universe that splits when a calamity strikes. So the ice age could well have been the splitting point between the original crystal sphere and torils crystal sphere. So going back before that time would mean you are on different planet in a different sphere (go back far enough and you are in a different universe - our universe).

So have a primordial planet dominated by aberrations, with primitive versions of modern races hiding in the shadows and the isolated places (small lizards for sarrukh, apes for humans, squid like creatures in the sea for batrachi).

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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  15:14:25  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Along these lines, I have taken on the concept that the vestige from the Tome of Magic named "Chupoclops" (who was a giant spider "primordial" that ate spirit beings) was from Toril originally. He was one of the original inhabitants of the place that then becomes an underground cave city named "Bheuristahl" inhabited by hags with powers over darkness, cold, and necromancy (and which breed with the local ogres, trolls, and giants), as well as enslaving many goblins to their servitude from the feywild. "Bheuristahl" then became "Narathmault" with the drow of clan Sethomiir. That later became Dun-Tharos



Ohh, I like this. Gives reason for the hatred between Vestiges listed in the book. Amon always seemed to me to be the cast off Shell that was Amaunator, he would no doubt have little love for Karsus. Also makes the scar that is Dun-Tharos even more ancient in its evil. Very nice.

Sam
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  15:46:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Along these lines, I have taken on the concept that the vestige from the Tome of Magic named "Chupoclops" (who was a giant spider "primordial" that ate spirit beings) was from Toril originally. He was one of the original inhabitants of the place that then becomes an underground cave city named "Bheuristahl" inhabited by hags with powers over darkness, cold, and necromancy (and which breed with the local ogres, trolls, and giants), as well as enslaving many goblins to their servitude from the feywild. "Bheuristahl" then became "Narathmault" with the drow of clan Sethomiir. That later became Dun-Tharos



Ohh, I like this. Gives reason for the hatred between Vestiges listed in the book. Amon always seemed to me to be the cast off Shell that was Amaunator, he would no doubt have little love for Karsus. Also makes the scar that is Dun-Tharos even more ancient in its evil. Very nice.

Sam



Hmmm, I had never noted THAT linkage that Amon doesn't like folks that bond with Chupoclops, but YES that does work. If Chupoclops is a primordial being like Kezef the Chaos Hound and Dendar the Night Serpent (all of whom feed upon spirits), then Amon's hatred may come from the dawn war. I too believe Amon to be a link to Amaunator. I can understand him not liking Karsus, since that may have had some ties to Lathander taking over as sun god and Amaunator becoming a vestige (i.e. after the fall of Netheril). Hmmm, other beings Amon is noted as not liking are Eurynome and Leraje. Eurynome is a primordial like being (the mother of the material) who divided the world into sky and sea, and she was killed, her body became the "first island", her blood the "first river", and her soul "a vestige". So, perhaps she created the water worlds of Chandos and Karpri and possibly even early Toril? There's a lot of options to work with there, linking her to deity-like beings like Chauntea, Earthmother, Maztica, Othea, etc..

Leraje and Amon's issues would be harder to link. Leraje is definitely related to Corellon and Lolth though.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Asharak
Learned Scribe

France
197 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  17:21:02  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gray Richardson write this piece of lore :

No one remembers the great yeti empire that once stretched from the farthest shores of Kara-Tur across the northern climbs to the Reghed Glacier of Faerun. Arisen to preeminence in the dawn of pre-history before the creator races, they were a magic poor society that later fell to barbarism and the Sarrukh dinner plate. All that is left of this once awesome nation are the savage, cannibal yeti that haunt the cold places of Toril and the pitiable Taer of the Unapproachable East, sad shadows of an empire lost to time.

Their once great pantheon, the Morgruihr Nazhedeen, were a formidable and terrible presence across the planes--now remembered as only a faint racial memory in the nightmares of children. The homeplane of the yeti gods has long since slipped beyond the Astral, and yet their devolved descendants, the vaporighu, who in bygone eras were a powerful planar race as numerous as demons or devils, still maintain a feeble subsistence on the fiendish planes.

There exists yet a sole vaporighu metropolis on the Barrens of Doom and Despair, in a distant cold region beyond Loviatar's realm. The city of Muirsh Anjuur posesses a startling beauty. Square fortresses, palaces and lofty pagodas--dingy remnants of ancient glory--are carved, tibetan style, into the stone of the slopes of steep moutains. The city sprawls through a small valley nestled snugly between parallel mountain ranges. Although seemingly savage and brutish when encountered elsewhere on the planes, in the city of Muirsh Anjuur the vaporighu adhere to an elaborate protocol of courtesy and deference to a rigid caste system run by warlords and mandarins.

Though not a burgeoning economy, the city remains a power due to the existence of several ancient portals which link the Barrens with the Abyss, the 9 Hells, the plane of Deep Caverns and the House of Nature. They are thus a nexus for the soul trade, selling larvae to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. They also trade with hags and khaasta.

Vaporighu are known for their hidecrafters--artisans who make clothing, hide armor, and other works of great beauty from exotic pelts, dragon hides and the skins of humanoids. They also have a strong tradition of skilled alchemists who create exotic elixirs and potions which have powerful effects never before seen by human adventurers.

The city contains several ancient portals which connect with remote mountainous locations in the Reghed and Great Glaciers, and various northern mountain ranges across Faerun, the Hordelands and Kara-Tur. Though used rarely, these portals are accessed on occasion by certain fiends to travel to the Realms, and by certain vaporighu hidecrafters requiring raw materials for their "art."


This is somewhere on this forum, I believe.

"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"

Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.

Edited by - Asharak on 31 Jul 2019 17:21:53
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  20:05:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, and thinking on it more, Eurynome's "body" may be the land mass that IS Merrourobouros. It would kind of fit if she "created" sea and sky, and Toril had no land prior to this, and her body became the first "island".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
235 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2019 :  12:20:22  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
So what do we know. Ice ages destroy most of the life on a planet. That means what comes before the ice age can be entirely unrelated to the lifeforms after the ice age.



Brian Aldriss made the Helliconia series about ice ages on a fictional planet, and Magic the Gathering got an Ice Age series of cards showing a fantastic ice age, too. It's just an epoch, probably less destructive for any habitable planet than we do now to our planet. We hurt our planet worse than any ice age can.

What you speak of are something like an Snowball Earth scenario. If that happens, nothing can live, ever, outside on ocean floor. I know the mythos of FR and Dendar eating the sun, etc. The ice planet in the movie Interstellar is more similar to a "snowball earth" than an ice age planet, so the term might be misused in FRs story, if its meant to be an Snowball Age, not an geological Ice Age.


Edited by - Starshade on 04 Aug 2019 12:21:11
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  17:35:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
So what do we know. Ice ages destroy most of the life on a planet. That means what comes before the ice age can be entirely unrelated to the lifeforms after the ice age.



Brian Aldriss made the Helliconia series about ice ages on a fictional planet, and Magic the Gathering got an Ice Age series of cards showing a fantastic ice age, too. It's just an epoch, probably less destructive for any habitable planet than we do now to our planet. We hurt our planet worse than any ice age can.

What you speak of are something like an Snowball Earth scenario. If that happens, nothing can live, ever, outside on ocean floor. I know the mythos of FR and Dendar eating the sun, etc. The ice planet in the movie Interstellar is more similar to a "snowball earth" than an ice age planet, so the term might be misused in FRs story, if its meant to be an Snowball Age, not an geological Ice Age.





From everything I see, I'm inclined to agree that its the death of most anything living, freezing of the water, etc... That being said, the world at that time had no land, and after that, land appeared. WHY that is might be scientific (large collection of matter pulled into orbit and sucked in.. possibly the ice age was caused by the shattering of Coliar into earth islands for instance... which literally blotted out the sun)… or it might be magical (see the idea of Eurynome)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  21:25:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I tend to treat all the myths and legends as just that. They might be very loosely based on events but equally they be entirely fanciful accounts of fictional events coming from a peoples origin theory.




I imagined you would say something like this. Myself, I prefer to play in a more fantasy world. If I want to play in a real world analog, I won't be playing D&D to begin with.

However, you have a point here. According to the novel "Stardeep", the current day gods were still mortal creatures during this time.

I would combine this, having real gods and primordial abominations living alongside the heroes that eventually would also ascend to gods in the future.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Aug 2019 21:29:54
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2019 :  18:22:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, I was working on the Metahel Pantheon Family Tree and at the same time rereading Norse Creation myth. I noted that the norst myth starts off with an ice age, and ymir the first giant is born from the venom of some rivers. Ymir nurses at the udders of a great cow (Audumbla). The cow licks Buri free from the ice. Buri somehow gives birth to Borr. Borr gives birth to Odin, Vili, and Ve. Odin, Vili, and Ve kill Ymir, and form the world from his body. Here's the interesting part.. they then find two trees (Ask and Embla.... ash and elm) and turn them into the first man and woman. Odin gives soul, Vili intellect, and Ve gives will.


So, the first "humans" came from trees. Then we look at Persian myth and Meshia and Meshiane, the ancient Persian names of the first man and woman, who were also formed from trees."

So, then we look at Maztican myth. The first "humans" they made were of clay (so elemental beings). The second they made were made from wood.
Next, the gods took the limbs of stout trees, and hacked the wooden features into the shapes of men. They placed the men of wood into the water, and they floated. When
they came forth from the stream, their features remained intact. The gods were pleased, for the men of wood seemed superior to their early cousins.
Then the lightning of a towering storm struck the world. Violent crashes and explosions shook the body of Maztica, and crackling explosions of the storm#146;s rage echoed across the land. The men of wood caught fire, burning away before the eyes of the gods.


Now just to throw out another little known fact. When water freezes, it gets BIGGER NOT SMALLER. So, an ice age would theoretically possibly cover any existing land... that maybe might have had tree people on it. If killing the tree people by burning them somehow triggered a change in environment (i.e. not enough to keep changing oxygen to carbon-dioxide), then maybe the burning of them CAUSED the ice age to a degree somehow. But maybe SOME tree people hang on... by using magic to summon light from the twinkling stars on the crystal sphere's edge, which are openings to the plane of radiance. Maybe these myths are true (possibly with different gods in different pantheons making different "breeds" of humans.... playing the "I saw what you did, I can do the same thing" game). So, maybe during the ice age it might be interesting to find patches of plant people surviving through Selune's grace by giving them magic to see her stars (and thus use its light for photosynthesis).

info on ice getting bigger not smaller below.
http://www.iapws.org/faq1/freeze.html



BTW, here's the link to the metahel pantheon family tree concept that I was working on, and yes its very complex, and I threw in a lot of easter eggs to make the faerunian "sages" be able to scratch their heads and try to correlate things. The "giants" are predominantly on the right side, the "Faernir" hostages (i.e. like the Vanir hostages Frey/Freyja/Njord, etc...) are down in the bottom left.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BlUtNDd1r6O_H4XqEpge5ztxA79OQJom

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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