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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  20:25:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good afternoon everyone,

It seems like certain repositories would have a vested interest in being connected, for example: The Spirit Soaring, Heralds's Holdfast (especially after the break away from the Harper's in the 900's), Candlekeep, Vault of the Sages, the Map House and more. With all of the descriptions of these places, knowing how Oghma is so revered in those locations, and that they could powerfully help each other's causes even more, one would think that using scrying pools, portals, and other forms of magic would be very useful and beneficial to the cause.

Additionally, it seems unusual that there are not illusory magics which can be utilized to project phantom copies of the tomes, scrolls, etc. to distant locations, where people could have access to those amazing works without risk to the originals, taxing the resources of the locale proper, and thereby increase literacy even more.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  22:13:58  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once again (with feeling)... Knowledge Is Power, and Magic Is Not Cheap.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  22:26:43  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

Well, you are right that magic can be quite expensive. Do you feel that the expense of such magic would be cost prohibitive to a large trade nation such as Durpar (one of the wealthiest in the world) or Sembia?

I looked up Teleportation Circle with a cost of 1,000 GP in value of Amber Dust, and Permanency with a cost of 22,500 GP. Are you thinking that 23,500 GP in value would be cost prohibitive to two of the wealthiest nations in the world?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

Once again (with feeling)... Knowledge Is Power, and Magic Is Not Cheap.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Edited by - cpthero2 on 11 Mar 2020 22:27:06
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1609 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  22:55:25  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may be looking for how communications work in Eberron...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Mar 2020 22:55:41
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  00:46:56  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Zeromaru X,

I have to ask then: how does it work there in this regard? That sounds awesome, as long as it is magic related.

Though, I would like to also know...what is your opinion on it in the Realms as I've sort of laid it out?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

You may be looking for how communications work in Eberron...


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  14:30:56  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been toying with this germ of a thought in my mind about similarities between our own Internet (and specifically Virtual Reality constructs) and the Astral Plane. It's not well defined, but I'm thinking about a cabal of very powerful archmages from across the Spheres - Elminster, Mordenkainen, Azalin, etc harnessing some of the raw "stuff" of the Astral Plane to sort of create their own pocket dimension of Thought that they can all access (i.e. "log on to") through magical crystals, orbs, palantirs, scrying pools, and so on. This pocket dimension contains whatever information, memories, formulae, etc. that each mage chooses to "upload" into it and share with the rest.

Customized ioun stones could function as portable devices for when you have to travel away from your main login device. You "download" a few Gigs worth of info into the stone to take with you, maybe customized to whichever particular project or interest you are working on at the time. You can log into this Thought Realm via another mages' device as long as helps with the ritual (shares his temporary password). A cool name for this magical internet could be an amalgamation of all the various gods of Knowledge from each planet, like take one syllable from each and make a mash-up, as they are working as a coalition to raise knowledge and learning throughout all the known multiverse.

Just a silly thought, needs more refinement.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  17:38:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe VikingLegion,

That is an awesome idea. There is some sort of mystical idea of a universal repository of all knowledge, memories, etc. I just can't remember the name of it, but that is a close real world example if I am recalling correctly.

I really like that idea.

Those stones sound kind of like Knowstones. Is that what it is based off of?

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I've been toying with this germ of a thought in my mind about similarities between our own Internet (and specifically Virtual Reality constructs) and the Astral Plane. It's not well defined, but I'm thinking about a cabal of very powerful archmages from across the Spheres - Elminster, Mordenkainen, Azalin, etc harnessing some of the raw "stuff" of the Astral Plane to sort of create their own pocket dimension of Thought that they can all access (i.e. "log on to") through magical crystals, orbs, palantirs, scrying pools, and so on. This pocket dimension contains whatever information, memories, formulae, etc. that each mage chooses to "upload" into it and share with the rest.

Customized ioun stones could function as portable devices for when you have to travel away from your main login device. You "download" a few Gigs worth of info into the stone to take with you, maybe customized to whichever particular project or interest you are working on at the time. You can log into this Thought Realm via another mages' device as long as helps with the ritual (shares his temporary password). A cool name for this magical internet could be an amalgamation of all the various gods of Knowledge from each planet, like take one syllable from each and make a mash-up, as they are working as a coalition to raise knowledge and learning throughout all the known multiverse.

Just a silly thought, needs more refinement.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8876 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  17:41:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This general concept of mages having a pool of shared resources was seen with the guild wizard of Waterdeep prestige class in 3e, which had a spellpool that mages could pull from. However, one must remember that the internet may have advantages, but it also opens up security issues.... big time security issues. Mages are not known to particularly work well together, and in a world like Toril where countries AND races are at each other's throats much more openly than our own world, this becomes something to keep in mind. While I could see Candlekeep and Herald's Holdfast being very fast friends and willing to work with each other, I'd imagine they'd be skeptical of opening holes in their security lest the other side fall to some threat. It could essentially usher in a severe loss of knowledge by a third party coming in, taking vast amounts of information and effectively holding it hostage from the rest of the world.

Meanwhile a world like Eberron that Zeromarux gives as an example, I see as less of a "wild west" scenario. Not a LOT different mind you, but its this structure and trust at least in the main continent that might make it work there (the main continent is Khorvaire, right?).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  17:49:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

You bring up a really great point there about the wizards not getting along well with one another. I get your point, as that notion is a well established one. However, for such a broad sweeping generalization that does exist in RPG communities, why has it stayed around so long? I mean, it just paints one group of people monolithically, and I can't see what benefit there is too that. Certainly there must be groups that get along quite well and benefit from it.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This general concept of mages having a pool of shared resources was seen with the guild wizard of Waterdeep prestige class in 3e, which had a spellpool that mages could pull from. However, one must remember that the internet may have advantages, but it also opens up security issues.... big time security issues. Mages are not known to particularly work well together, and in a world like Toril where countries AND races are at each other's throats much more openly than our own world, this becomes something to keep in mind. While I could see Candlekeep and Herald's Holdfast being very fast friends and willing to work with each other, I'd imagine they'd be skeptical of opening holes in their security lest the other side fall to some threat. It could essentially usher in a severe loss of knowledge by a third party coming in, taking vast amounts of information and effectively holding it hostage from the rest of the world.

Meanwhile a world like Eberron that Zeromarux gives as an example, I see as less of a "wild west" scenario. Not a LOT different mind you, but its this structure and trust at least in the main continent that might make it work there (the main continent is Khorvaire, right?).


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8876 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  21:15:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

You bring up a really great point there about the wizards not getting along well with one another. I get your point, as that notion is a well established one. However, for such a broad sweeping generalization that does exist in RPG communities, why has it stayed around so long? I mean, it just paints one group of people monolithically, and I can't see what benefit there is too that. Certainly there must be groups that get along quite well and benefit from it.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This general concept of mages having a pool of shared resources was seen with the guild wizard of Waterdeep prestige class in 3e, which had a spellpool that mages could pull from. However, one must remember that the internet may have advantages, but it also opens up security issues.... big time security issues. Mages are not known to particularly work well together, and in a world like Toril where countries AND races are at each other's throats much more openly than our own world, this becomes something to keep in mind. While I could see Candlekeep and Herald's Holdfast being very fast friends and willing to work with each other, I'd imagine they'd be skeptical of opening holes in their security lest the other side fall to some threat. It could essentially usher in a severe loss of knowledge by a third party coming in, taking vast amounts of information and effectively holding it hostage from the rest of the world.

Meanwhile a world like Eberron that Zeromarux gives as an example, I see as less of a "wild west" scenario. Not a LOT different mind you, but its this structure and trust at least in the main continent that might make it work there (the main continent is Khorvaire, right?).





Look at our own world and ask the same question. People are self-interested. The more they get pulled into becoming technologically adapted, the less they work together. Wizards are similar. They're consumed by their studies to the detriment of social connections. Then throw in the factors unlike our world that your neighbors want to literally steal your resources, kill you, or even eat you... these aren't things that the average person with technological backgrounds have to deal with in our world. One can see why it might start to generate a level of paranoia. One can see also why there would start to be "factions" that people migrate towards for self defense with shared experiences, but these factions would generally lack trust beyond a select few members that know each other personally.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  21:19:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

I can see that. That is exactly the reason leaders exist. They pull together the disparate members who are disaffected by the ideas of cooperation, etc. In the real world, we get the same things, and leaders come about to harness the potential and direct it towards a desired goal. In this case, it seems like the idea of leaders being able to do so have largely fell to the side to promote a consistent over-generalization that is predicated on a being an overextended trope.

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
238 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  01:20:31  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR has doppelgangers, shape-changers, mindflayers, and more than enough magicians that have usurped power & brought flaming ends to civilizations throughout the history of the realms. Magical conduits that had peaceful purposes were weaponized to bring about carnage going back to the Crown Wars amongst the supposedly civilized elven nations. The writers have used the "magical backlash" more than once to describe how a magically adept nation or group was crippled. So, you ARE demanding a huge placement of trust into a foreign entity by groups with said leaders even if they have monolithic job approval.

I am not saying it can't be done, just that you are glossing over some hairy details & failing to see how that would complicate or completely undermine the goals. Just like in physics that there is a reaction for every action, anything done to help some people also harms people. Think about how these places were operating before the changes are to be made. Who would be fired afterwards since they are rendered obsolete or have their business reduced? Who would stand to gain or lose prestige or importance because this project is undertaken. Just like what happened in the universities when they were connected by computers IRL, there was a tremendous amount of squabbling behind the scenes of whose resources got used & who had control, and then these same networks were the focus of serious security breeches for decades afterwards until the end of the Cold War provided a brief slow-down in spying before it ramped up passed Cold War levels by the end of the 20th century. We have data bandits holding information hostage, phishers worming access through encrypted protections, DNS attackers that blockade people from access, malware makers that create a range of program viruses, and other agents of evil ranging from petty criminals up to national intelligence agencies actively abusing the internet on a daily basis.

Magic is also not constant in the realms - it surges, it withers, it flickers, it is steady, and it does not work at all. Some of those are mapped, others move, and occasionally a goddess of magic spontaneously explodes. Every kingdom built on magic has fallen. Even Halruaa is more grounded & less magically dependent than their preceding Netherese nations & the elven realms before them. The reason is that magic is more unstable in the lore of the world than what the D&D playmats allow for in a game session at the dining room table.

You also are thinking about spells the wrong way, which is through the prism of the D&D game system. All PCs have access to all spells as a generic template according to the system. The problem is the FR world does not have that for the NPCs. The best analogy is that the spells are patents of each wizard's & sorcerer's creation, where they become more vulnerable if their patents are known & less valuable if their patents are copied by others. Master wizards accept allowing apprentices to copy their lower level spells for the benefit of scut-work performed the same way it is for a master craftsmen & his apprentices in making the business more efficient. But these same masters would not allow their techniques to be taught to potential rivals or outsiders as that represents a threat to their livelihoods.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1189 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  19:04:27  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

quote:
The FR has doppelgangers, shape-changers, mindflayers, and more than enough magicians that have usurped power & brought flaming ends to civilizations throughout the history of the realms. Magical conduits that had peaceful purposes were weaponized to bring about carnage going back to the Crown Wars amongst the supposedly civilized elven nations. The writers have used the "magical backlash" more than once to describe how a magically adept nation or group was crippled. So, you ARE demanding a huge placement of trust into a foreign entity by groups with said leaders even if they have monolithic job approval.


I completely get this point. Though, it begs the question: why bother attempting innovation if fear is the limiting factor? Someone will come and destroy it some would say, so don't do it. However, that doesn't make much sense as there are a plethora of examples where that very notion has been fought in the Realms. Knowing that innovation isn't stopped in the Realms in many cases, it makes no sense that the fear of bad guys doing bad things would control the limit on such portals and what not. Is there something else that I am missing here, do you think?

quote:
I am not saying it can't be done, just that you are glossing over some hairy details & failing to see how that would complicate or completely undermine the goals. Just like in physics that there is a reaction for every action, anything done to help some people also harms people.


Oh, I completely get and appreciate your point here. One of the things I am shooting for here is to brainstorm the process that could lead to all of this goodness happening. The consequences are a great thing to consider and I am glad you offering them here. :)

quote:
Think about how these places were operating before the changes are to be made. Who would be fired afterwards since they are rendered obsolete or have their business reduced? Who would stand to gain or lose prestige or importance because this project is undertaken. Just like what happened in the universities when they were connected by computers IRL, there was a tremendous amount of squabbling behind the scenes of whose resources got used & who had control, and then these same networks were the focus of serious security breeches for decades afterwards until the end of the Cold War provided a brief slow-down in spying before it ramped up passed Cold War levels by the end of the 20th century. We have data bandits holding information hostage, phishers worming access through encrypted protections, DNS attackers that blockade people from access, malware makers that create a range of program viruses, and other agents of evil ranging from petty criminals up to national intelligence agencies actively abusing the internet on a daily basis.


Absolutely great point. In fact, it reminds me of a case study in both the disciplines of marketing and economics that I worked on during grad school. A tribe in Morocco, post-1950's (I believe it was in the early 1970's) had a real stringent routine about roles for people in the tribe. A big part of that was multiple people fetching water throughout the day. That was a job someone would get assigned to for their entire life. Obviously quite important too. A relief aid company came in and provided them with free irrigation and other water services to bring water directly to people's huts, and other buildings. The long and short of it was, it caused massive upheaval in the community upon this happening. It took jobs and meaning from a huge amount of people as one job was relevant to the next. Such a simple form of technology ended up causing more bad than good. So, I think it is something that smart developers would look into and prep the implementation with sound policy on all socio-economic-military-legal fronts.

quote:
Magic is also not constant in the realms - it surges, it withers, it flickers, it is steady, and it does not work at all. Some of those are mapped, others move, and occasionally a goddess of magic spontaneously explodes. Every kingdom built on magic has fallen. Even Halruaa is more grounded & less magically dependent than their preceding Netherese nations & the elven realms before them. The reason is that magic is more unstable in the lore of the world than what the D&D playmats allow for in a game session at the dining room table.


Great point! That's why, with magic items that store said magic, I think looking at something that stores magic as we do with dams, and other forms of power. It can then be consistent in its use without ebbs and flows. Just like we do it with electricity.

quote:
You also are thinking about spells the wrong way, which is through the prism of the D&D game system. All PCs have access to all spells as a generic template according to the system. The problem is the FR world does not have that for the NPCs. The best analogy is that the spells are patents of each wizard's & sorcerer's creation, where they become more vulnerable if their patents are known & less valuable if their patents are copied by others. Master wizards accept allowing apprentices to copy their lower level spells for the benefit of scut-work performed the same way it is for a master craftsmen & his apprentices in making the business more efficient. But these same masters would not allow their techniques to be taught to potential rivals or outsiders as that represents a threat to their livelihoods.



This is a great point and idea here. Consider this though, as with public administration in the RL: you will get some wizards who will adopt an ethic that puts the betterment of society before their own individual goals. It then devalues the currency in secret of those wizards that keep it private and will compel them to either compete for their own brand of magic, or to kill off the competition. ;)

Thoughts?

Best regards, and again, sorry for the delay.



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
238 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  09:49:07  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"That's why, with magic items that store said magic..."
Uh... that's not the way it works. All magic is affected whether it is a spell, enchanted item, spell-like ability or any other magical phenomena that works with the weave. The Weave is the source of the power and it shapes how effectively it is used so when its immobile or wandering damage causes a change it really cannot be overcome by mortal means. Even repairing a 30ft section of damaged Weave requires a Wish or Miracle spell - and doing so is discouraged by the church of Mystra because it causes a strain on the entire Weave. The gods get their spell power from the Weave and suffer the same limitations imposed by fluctuations & dead zones so there is no mortal means to overcome that. The power is not stored, just the complex means to tap the Weave's power in the surrounding environment is stored.

Other than that, I will not deny that there would be selfless individuals who will harm themselves for the benefit of a larger society. As you said, there would be those whom would try to stop them. Additionally, these same samaritans would be targeted by those whom would steal their (non)secrets for themselves. As for the fear of innovation, it is a matter of risk assessment - don't put all of your eggs in one basket. Magical links are just like that.

Think of the internet and the multiple slowdowns caused by an inadvertent backhoe strike that seems to happen every 3-5 years in the U.S. Millions of dollars were lost each time it happened and considerable expense was put into making a more robust network redundancy that never seems to catch up with the demand. But even the internet was preceded by telegraph communications with the first intercontinental communications established with the transatlantic cable first laid in 1858. How many advances were necessary, with how many setbacks, and how much industrial transformations, to get us to the internet of today?

A key sticking point is who has sovereign control of a thing - very few governments are willing to give up anything that can be in their power. And wherever there is government power there are those scheming, back-stabbing, covetous, grasping parasites: politicians. Spellcasters being mixed with this class of pandering & manipulative people usually has unhappy consequences.

As I said, hairy details. Most of this is probably much deeper than the players would ever consider; however, it can be used to a GMs advantage by actually introducing these countering elements in the background of the setting to make the players gape in wonder at never having considered those possibilities.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  01:22:42  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

You also are thinking about spells the wrong way, which is through the prism of the D&D game system. All PCs have access to all spells as a generic template according to the system. The problem is the FR world does not have that for the NPCs. The best analogy is that the spells are patents of each wizard's & sorcerer's creation, where they become more vulnerable if their patents are known & less valuable if their patents are copied by others. Master wizards accept allowing apprentices to copy their lower level spells for the benefit of scut-work performed the same way it is for a master craftsmen & his apprentices in making the business more efficient. But these same masters would not allow their techniques to be taught to potential rivals or outsiders as that represents a threat to their livelihoods.



From what I have read, Mystra wants mages to continually research and make new spells and items. So, having private spells get out and having a "magic arms race" is something that she would want. That is why I created the following item:

Tome of Magic: The size of a large spellbook, a tome of magic is covered in a blue, leather like material with Mystra’s symbol embossed on both the front and back in silver. The pages, and each book has exactly 30 pages, are made of thin sheets of electrum with the writing etched into them. These books were very likely created by the goddess herself to make sure that magic cannot be horded and that new discoveries are freely distributed. Highly sought by mages everywhere, as of yet, no mage has been able to find a tome of magic twice.

Functionally, they are very similar to a book of infinite spells with a few changes:

• As soon as someone touches one, the book identifies itself (and Mystra has decreed that no other item can identify itself as a tome of magic). The book doesn’t say what spells are contained within its pages(since it hasn’t been determined yet).

• Like a book of infinite spells, each page contains a single spell. However, the spell for that page isn’t chosen until it is turned to. The spell can be any non-true dweomer/quest spell not restricted to a particular faith (a spell only granted by Bane, for example). Mystra has reached an agreement with the non-human dieties of magic not to include any racially restricted spells unless the user of the book is of that particular race (elven high magic is never shown in any case). Due to the magic of the book, any spell can be cast even if it is one that is proscribed based on the character’s specialization.

• The damage/stun for non-casters and the chance of a page turning is identical to that listed for the book of infinite spells as well as the method for selecting a spell. Since the spell is selected when the page is viewed, it is possible for newly researched spells to appear on the page (Elminster isn’t particually happy about that since some of his most private spells may get out there but even he cannot tell the goddess of magic to not include his).

• Similarly, the spell on the page can be used once per day by the user unless it is a spell that can already be cast by the individual based on class and current level. In that case, it can be cast four times per day using the magic of the book. If the spell is usable by the individual, the spell can be recorded in the caster’s spell books just like any other spell (there is no learning check made and transcribing the spell in this way uses up one of the castings of the spell for that day).

• The book’s spells are cast at will with no material components needed unless it is directly needed by a spell (like the gem for an imprisonment spell). Any detrimental effects are still visited upon the caster depending on the spell cast (like loss of Constituion or the requirement of rest before it can be cast again).

The book is impervious to any type of magic, makes saving throws as hard metal with a +5 bonus, and if it about to be destroyed, it teleports away (presumably to be found again by someone else). Any attempt to change its appearance is almost immediately reversed.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7064 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  04:56:32  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Nether Scrolls already fulfil the purposes of this Tome Of Magic. They exist to encourage and educate magical learning, they contain seemingly infinite knowledge, they cannot be defrauded or destroyed, they have a history of moving from place to place and from owner to owner. And there's over a hundred of them in the Realms, humans learned magic from them, elves learned magic from them, Mystra apparently sometimes makes a few more.

And don't forget about Mystra's Magister. Always one somewhere, always spreading magic one way or another.

[/Ayrik]
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  18:32:55  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did they change them again. The last I saw about this is this from the Lost Empires of Faerun (excerpts from page 156):

Two sets of nether scrolls exist, each consisting of fifty individual scrolls. One complete set lies in the depths of Windsong Tower in the ruins of Myth Drannor, where it takes the form of a golden beech tree known as the Quess Ar Teranthvar (Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge). The other set has been broken up and mostly lost.

Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice.

The nether scrolls are divided into five chapters, each covering a different aspect of the Art. A character who manages to read all ten scrolls that make up a chapter gains an additional benefit whose nature depends on the topic studied.

So, reading a scroll gives some benefit but it doesn't contain actual spells. Someone would still have to do research to create a usable spell from that gain in knowledge (with a probably bonus to see if the research was successful). And, having access to a single scroll would only mean that one aspect of that chapter of scrolls would be increased for the reader. So, for example, having a single scroll from the Foundations of Magic chapter could only increase a casters knownledge of divination spells so that the range of any divination spell they cast is automatically doubled.

As for the Magister, even the he/she would have to have the spell in their spell books to be able to distribute it. So, from what I read in the Secrets of the Magister, they would create new spells and magic items to give away but you don't see them distributing Manshoon's Stasis Clone spell because they don't have access to it. A Tome of Magic would allow it to spread from Manshoon's control.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  22:30:43  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The above sounds as if possession of this Tome of Magic is a glaring bulls-eye on the possessor. One perusal of "Pages of the Mages" shows a strong consistent theme of owners losing "ordinary" spellbooks frequently and often violently. Just imagine the possessor's situation when the Tome of Magic displays the spell "Larloch's (spell name)". Can a wizard last the 24 hours to write down that spell and discard the book before Larloch or one of his servitors pays a (lethal) visit?
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2020 :  22:45:17  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, there ARE dangers to owning it and only a fool would run around saying that they had it. You can add Halaster, Manshoon, and probably a dozen more that would actively hunt down anyone they heard that had it. There is nothing like living in absolute terror to shake up a slow gaming session. *evil grin*

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7064 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2020 :  01:22:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Did they change [the Nether Scrolls] again. The last I saw about this is this from the Lost Empires of Faerun (excerpts from page 156):

Two sets of nether scrolls exist, each consisting of fifty individual scrolls. One complete set lies in the depths of Windsong Tower in the ruins of Myth Drannor, where it takes the form of a golden beech tree known as the Quess Ar Teranthvar (Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge). The other set has been broken up and mostly lost. (etc)
They changed along with every new edition and (to a lesser degree) they changed every time a Nether Scroll made any kind of appearance (which introduced more lore).

One "older" set of 50, scattered and hoarded everywhere. One "newer" set of 50 transmuted into a magical tree, maybe or maybe not untransmuted back into their original form. Less than a dozen additional "copies" made by Mystra and given to Larloch or Chosens as needed to complete their collections.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212

While on the topic of "Realms Internet" ...

I've imagined the Nether Scrolls as being somewhat analogous to online wikis. The "endless magical knowledge" they contain might be something like clicking on links which open entirely new pages (which I suppose are revealed when unfurling one side, while the previous pages roll away into the other side, although a large enough surface could allow multiple "pages" to remain unrolled/open at a time).

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Mar 2020 01:29:48
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  04:06:43  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

The above sounds as if possession of this Tome of Magic is a glaring bulls-eye on the possessor. One perusal of "Pages of the Mages" shows a strong consistent theme of owners losing "ordinary" spellbooks frequently and often violently. Just imagine the possessor's situation when the Tome of Magic displays the spell "Larloch's (spell name)". Can a wizard last the 24 hours to write down that spell and discard the book before Larloch or one of his servitors pays a (lethal) visit?



But you must admit, a great roleplayer's opportunity.

It took a few moments, but the young wizard gradually looked up from his perusal of the precious blue-bound tome, squinting at the figure cloaked in black that stood on the other side of his desk. "How did you get in here? Every brick in this building is warded against teleportation."

"I came in through the front door, duh," the figure replied in a matter-of-fact tone, though that tone reeked of the hollow Void Beyond. "The cleaning woman left it open when she went out to hang your socks on the clothesline."

The young man sighed. Time for a pay cut for that girl. "All right...now that we've established that, why are you in my house?"

"I should think it obvious. The book you're unconsciously clutching like it was some sort of Sunite rosary...I've come to relieve you of the burden of it."

"I should think not," the young wizard scoffed. "I found this book in a flour bin in the bakery across from Neverember's hall not two hours ago, and I'm just now getting started perusing the contents. Go find your own."

He could almost see the raised eyebrow. "How did you get from Neverwinter to Beregost in under two hours? How old are you, boy?"

"Seventeen. And I teleported. Duh. I learned the spell as soon as I was able to. And don't call me 'boy', whoever or whatever you are."

After a protracted pause, where the young wizard was certain he was being scrutinized, the figure drew himself up, though his tone was slightly...if only minutely...more respectful. "Tell me, b-, err, young one, have you heard the name 'Thallis Maurin' before?"

The young man snorted. "I best have - he was my great-grandfather, supposedly a leftover from Netheril. My father doesn't talk about him."

"Your father is a wise man...you have Thallis' features and his incredibly disrespectful manner down to a tee, and I would hardly describe him as a 'leftover'. Well...this changes things. I suppose I can't take the book from you in the manner which I intended, that would cause more problems than it's worth."

"And what manner was that?"

The figure shrugged. "Summon forth a dozen vrock and have them turn you into soup scraps. But I don't suppose your great-grandfather would take kindly to his flesh and blood being turned into cold cuts, so-"

"Wait...are you saying he's alive?"

The figure sighed audibly. "Please don't interrupt, it's not polite. And I don't know if 'alive' is exactly the most accurate description...suffice to say he can make his displeasure known if he so chooses."

"But is he-"

"The book, boy, the BOOK." The figure sighed again. "Here is what I am proposing, in lieu of having you turned into second lunch for a pack of demonic culinary boors. You will finish transcribing whatever the book allows you to. Apart from sleep, food, and, ah, 'daily rituals', shall we say, you will do nothing else. If you are truly Thallis' blood, you should be finished in short order, yes?"

The young wizard said nothing as the figure set a glowing black gem down on the desk. "When you are finished, close the book, and put this on the back cover. That will tell me to come get the book. In return, the vrock in this gem will defend you should anyone else come and insist you turn it over to them before you finish. Should you need them, just push it off the desk. In either case, I will know, and arrive as soon as possible."

"A dozen vrock causing a ruckus in the Beregost town center probably won't be very well-received," the young man observed.

"Oh, pish. Stop being such a doomsayer. You'll be done before you know it." The figure drifted towards the front room and the door beyond. "Pick up that pen, boy, and hop to it. Chop, chop. Those spells won't transcribe themselves, you know."

The young wizard watched the figure vanish, then sighed as he stared at the glowing ebon bauble. "Great...just GREAT..."


- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 01 Apr 2020 10:39:10
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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2020 :  17:18:47  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell



But you must admit, a great roleplayer's opportunity.

It took a few moments, but the young wizard gradually looked up from his perusal of the precious blue-bound tome, squinting at the figure cloaked in black that stood on the other side of his desk. "How did you get in here? Every brick in this building is warded against teleportation."

"I came in through the front door, duh," the figure replied in a matter-of-fact tone, though that tone reeked of the hollow Void Beyond. "The cleaning woman left it open when she went out to hang your socks on the clothesline."

The young man sighed. Time for a pay cut for that girl. "All right...now that we've established that, why are you in my house?"

"I should think it obvious. The book you're unconsciously clutching like it was some sort of Sunite rosary...I've come to relieve you of the burden of it."

"I should think not," the young wizard scoffed. "I found this book in a flour bin in the bakery across from Neverember's hall not two hours ago, and I'm just now getting started perusing the contents. Go find your own."

He could almost see the raised eyebrow. "How did you get from Neverwinter to Beregost in under two hours? How old are you, boy?"

"Seventeen. And I teleported. Duh. I learned the spell as soon as I was able to. And don't call me 'boy', whoever or whatever you are."

After a protracted pause, where the young wizard was certain he was being scrutinized, the figure drew himself up, though his tone was slightly...if only minutely...more respectful. "Tell me, b-, err, young one, have you heard the name 'Thallis Maurin' before?"

The young man snorted. "I best have - he was my great-grandfather, supposedly a leftover from Netheril. My father doesn't talk about him."

"Your father is a wise man...you have Thallis' features and his incredibly disrespectful manner down to a tee, and I would hardly describe him as a 'leftover'. Well...this changes things. I suppose I can't take the book from you in the manner which I intended, that would cause more problems than it's worth."

"And what manner was that?"

The figure shrugged. "Summon forth a dozen vrock and have them turn you into soup scraps. But I don't suppose your great-grandfather would take kindly to his flesh and blood being turned into cold cuts, so-"

"Wait...are you saying he's alive?"

The figure sighed audibly. "Please don't interrupt, it's not polite. And I don't know if 'alive' is exactly the most accurate description...suffice to say he can make his displeasure known if he so chooses."

"But is he-"

"The book, boy, the BOOK." The figure sighed again. "Here is what I am proposing, in lieu of having you turned into second lunch for a pack of demonic culinary boors. You will finish transcribing whatever the book allows you to. Apart from sleep, food, and, ah, 'daily rituals', shall we say, you will do nothing else. If you are truly Thallis' blood, you should be finished in short order, yes?"

The young wizard said nothing as the figure set a glowing black gem down on the desk. "When you are finished, close the book, and put this on the back cover. That will tell me to come get the book. In return, the vrock in this gem will defend you should anyone else come and insist you turn it over to them before you finish. Should you need them, just push it off the desk. In either case, I will know, and arrive as soon as possible."

"A dozen vrock causing a ruckus in the Beregost town center probably won't be very well-received," the young man observed.

"Oh, pish. Stop being such a doomsayer. You'll be done before you know it." The figure drifted towards the front room and the door beyond. "Pick up that pen, boy, and hop to it. Chop, chop. Those spells won't transcribe themselves, you know."

The young wizard watched the figure vanish, then sighed as he stared at the glowing ebon bauble. "Great...just GREAT..."


- OMH



I can hear the "Don't try to cheat me, or else..." threat guarantee in the stranger's voice.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5835 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2020 :  10:07:20  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Nether Scrolls need a serious revamp. I suspect Eric and I will get to them in 5 or so.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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