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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  14:53:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
It occurred to me just now that we have a definitive lore piece from the novels (and yes, I know some say the novels don't count), but this lore piece places Malcanthet as serving the hells. This contradicts previous lore that placed her as a demon lord in 3rd edition. While I know the meta-game reasons for this (i.e. succubi became devils in 5e), I think it might be a good way to develop the separation of succubi from both demons and devils that now exists. What if Shami-Amourae got released from the Wells of Darkness in the dungeon magazine module #148 (and this was a goal of that adventure)? Might she have run Malcanthet out of the Abyss and into the arms of Asmodeus (who may have offered protection in return for the allegiance of the succubi that continued to follow her instead of Shami-Amourae)? Both might claim the title of "Queen of the Succubi" now, but one is "Hell's Queen of the Succubi" and one is the "Demon Queen of the Succubi". For those who think Shami-Amourae was a goddess created just for Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss and the Wells of Darkness adventure (Dungeon #148), she actually was one of the first Queens of Succubi documented unofficially in Dungeon mag #5 (Stolen Power).

Along these same lines, we also have another demon lord related to succubi named Lynkhab from "Faces of Evil: the Fiends" in 2e and mentioned only in name in "Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss". She is noted as vying with both Shami-Amourae and Malcanthet for the title, and she's noted as being a demon lord of the 297th layer of the abyss ("The Sighing Cliffs"). She's noted in Faces of Evil as being constantly becoming disembodied in trying to become a goddess and "reforming" a day or two later in a new body. My take that I would put to this would be a little twist to make her a bit more standard to use... have her acts as a patron for warlocks and be a vestige for binders who let her "ride" their body. This could fit well with the concept that Lynkhab is also trapped in the Wells of Darkness, but that she continues to act in her realm by possessing binders who "sit on her thrones" (and when they do so, they take on her "Sign" to show that they are possessed by Lynkhab), and thus there may be multiple "Lynkhab" possessed fiends in the 297th layer of the Abyss on any given day. I also wouldn't limit this to just succubi, and have "the Sighing Cliffs" filled with Lilitu, harpies, and possibly other beings as well.



from the Godborn novel below
Mephistopheles, who had plotted for decades to become divine, had managed to take only a fraction of a lesser god's power, while the Lord of the Ninth had become a full god through luck. By chance. And Mephistopheles was, once more, second in Hell.
Worst of all, he feared that Asmodeus had recently learned of his plans. Mephistopheles's spies in Nessus's court spoke of mustering legions, of Asmodeus's growing ire. A summons had reached Mephistar, Mephistopheles's iron keep. Asmodeus's words had been carried on the vile, forked tongue of the Lord of Nessus's sometime-messenger, the she-bitch succubus, Malcanthet.
"His Majesty, the Supreme Overlord of the Hells, Asmodeus the Terrible, requires His Grace's presence before his throne in Nessus."
"Supreme, you said?"
"Shall I tell His Majesty that you take issue with his title?"
Mephistopheles bit back his retort. "He sends me Hell's harlot to convey a summons? To what end is my presence required?"
Malcanthet had ignored the question, offering only, "His Majesty wished me to inform you that time is of the essence."
"And my time is limited. I will attend when I'm able."
"You will attend within a fortnight or His Majesty will be forced to assume that you are in rebellion. Those are the words of His Majesty."
Mephistopheles had glared at her while his court had muttered and tittered. "Get Out! Now!'
Malcanthet had bowed, smirking, and exited the court, leaving Mephistopheles to stew in uncertainties, his court to gossip in possibilities.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

LordofBones
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746 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  15:07:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lynkhab isn't trying to become a goddess. She became a personification of desire; the catch being that by becoming Desire Itself, she could no longer act on her own desires. That's why she's the Lady of Desire and Depression; the catch-22 of her existence has resulted in her wanting to die. She can't kill herself, which makes it all the worse, as her own passions end up resurrecting her.

I think that particular take on a succubus queen - becoming the ideal of her race and torn between loving and hating it - makes her a vastly more interesting figure than Demogorgon's gf and ex. She's gone beyond the petty quarrels of the Throne of Ripe Flesh, becoming something more than a mere succubus-queen. The catch being that she's thoroughly miserable about it.

Edited by - LordofBones on 04 Jul 2018 15:10:13
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sleyvas
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USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  15:49:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Lynkhab isn't trying to become a goddess. She became a personification of desire; the catch being that by becoming Desire Itself, she could no longer act on her own desires. That's why she's the Lady of Desire and Depression; the catch-22 of her existence has resulted in her wanting to die. She can't kill herself, which makes it all the worse, as her own passions end up resurrecting her.

I think that particular take on a succubus queen - becoming the ideal of her race and torn between loving and hating it - makes her a vastly more interesting figure than Demogorgon's gf and ex. She's gone beyond the petty quarrels of the Throne of Ripe Flesh, becoming something more than a mere succubus-queen. The catch being that she's thoroughly miserable about it.



Yeah, this is why I figured making her a "vestige" would really work instead of her becoming a goddess. Essentially, how do you kill a vestige? But, she is noted as coming back in "different forms", which kind of works perfectly with the idea of binders "making pacts" with her and letting her share their bodies. Thus, at any given time she might be associated to multiple binders and sharing their essence... and maybe a downside to this is that if she gains complete control of someone she might make them commit suicide in an odd attempt to kill herself by daring adventurers to "find a way to kill her" (thus making adventurers aware that killing her is not easy... and thus, they may turn to their bag of tricks for "killing hard things"). In fact, maybe she hopes that someone will get the idea that the only way to kill her is to pull her from the Wells of Darkness, and she hopes that after they do so she can escape them (and maybe the author from faces of evil who gathered the information on her suicide missions has her statements a little misdocumented).

As to her not wanting to become a deity, reread Faces of Evil. It says
Lynkhab has become a creature of pure will, too cohesive to move on to a new existence. She tries and tries, and she fails and fails. She can force herself out of her own memory and thus out of being for a time, but she is desire! And she is so strong that she always reappears after a day or two. That is why she is depression, too. She wants to become a true deity, but the is stuck right where she is. Just a poor little Abyssal lord.

'Course, Lynkhab is stuck in a physical form, but it does not always have to be the SAME form. She reads the desire in the hearts of others and feeds off their lusts. Xanxost would like to see what kind of slaadi she would make! Lately, Lynkhab takes the shape of a flame-haired, voluptuous elf with eyes of burning ice. The tanar'ri say she owns the 297th layer (the Sighing Cliffs), but she also wanders the Abyss because no one - not even other lords - can hurt her. Sometimes she seeks out mortal adventurers in the Abyss and says, "Hello, please try to kill me!" If they fail, she puts them in the dead book. So far, everyone has failed.


As a secondary note, her ability to "erase herself from her own memory" reminds me of the "Last Word" learned by Tenebrous / Orcus... and the whole erasing of Kiaransalee, the Raven Queen, etc... and the weird disembodied voice of the Queen of Air and Darkness. We had postulated previously that the QoA&D had created magical items that infected powerful beings similar to Sauron (Markustay was calling it the "Regalia of Winter"), and I think this individual would be a great person to have also recovered one of these pieces at some point. Possibly she used the "Last Word" on herself in an attempt to "rid" herself of the QoA&D's taint and that's how she finds herself in this mess.
Along these lines, she's listed as being in a cryptic tome known as "a big book of names" - the Mors Mysterium Nominum

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jul 2018 15:51:23
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1655 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  16:32:39  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

It occurred to me just now that we have a definitive lore piece from the novels (and yes, I know some say the novels don't count), but this [...]contradicts previous lore

From 4e era? I'm almost surprised.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  17:39:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

It occurred to me just now that we have a definitive lore piece from the novels (and yes, I know some say the novels don't count), but this [...]contradicts previous lore

From 4e era? I'm almost surprised.



Well, let's face it, they DID move the succubi from the abyss to the hells, so this was one way to show it. They were going to have to retroactively change the lore, and this was their attempt somewhat. That being said, we now have them not allied with any given group, so we should make the best use of the data we have to show "how" this happened.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  17:57:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Afaik, succubi became devils in 4e, though there were still demon succubi (succubi turned into demons by being corrupted by the Abyss). As such, there were two succubi factions, both having their own queen (to help explain why succubi were on both sides of the Blood War). Malcanthet was the queen of demon succubi, and although she went to the Abyss to help advance Asmodeus's agenda, much like Graz'zt she got corrupted by the Abyss and turned into a demon lord. The transformation made her mad, and while she believes she still serves Asmodeus, in fact she serves the Abyss.

Lilith is the queen of the devil succubi, and is somehow related to Glasya.

Both factions (demon succubi and devil succubi) are at war and fight among themselves in the Blood War. That Asmodeus has devil succubi in his forces annoy the erynnies all the time (see, the Tymanther-Unther War in the last chapter of "The Devil You Know" novel).

I'm going to search in my 4e stuff to see if there is any info about these other succubi queens you mention.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jul 2018 18:01:59
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  20:09:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Afaik, succubi became devils in 4e, though there were still demon succubi (succubi turned into demons by being corrupted by the Abyss). As such, there were two succubi factions, both having their own queen (to help explain why succubi were on both sides of the Blood War). Malcanthet was the queen of demon succubi, and although she went to the Abyss to help advance Asmodeus's agenda, much like Graz'zt she got corrupted by the Abyss and turned into a demon lord. The transformation made her mad, and while she believes she still serves Asmodeus, in fact she serves the Abyss.

Lilith is the queen of the devil succubi, and is somehow related to Glasya.

Both factions (demon succubi and devil succubi) are at war and fight among themselves in the Blood War. That Asmodeus has devil succubi in his forces annoy the erynnies all the time (see, the Tymanther-Unther War in the last chapter of "The Devil You Know" novel).

I'm going to search in my 4e stuff to see if there is any info about these other succubi queens you mention.



Thanks Zero... that's a little far-fetched to me to believe that she's a demon lord and doesn't know it. Where did this lore come from by the way? I'm assuming dragon articles?

I do see a Lilith listed as a "second consort" to Baalzebul in the Fiendish Codex: Tyrants of Hell, but it doesn't say anything else.

DUKES OF MALADOMINI
A sizable court serves the Lord of Lies. His attendants include
unique devils such as Baftis (First Consort), Lilith (Second
Consort), Neabaz (Herald of Lies), Barbatos (Marshal of Maladomini),
and the generals Abigor, Bileth, and Zepar.


BTW, do you know of anywhere where there's a listing of the dragon articles from 4e? I see one that started, but it only went to 2009. I was interested to see how many of these Codex of Betrayal articles they did.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2018 :  22:31:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its not that she doesn't knows. She knows she is a demon lord. Malcanthet geniunely believes she is helping Asmodeus, but also covets the true power of the Abyss for herself (the shard of pure evil of the obyriths). She is like Graz'tz in that regard. Still, Asmodeus has his uses for her... she is more unreliable than Lilith, tho.

And yes, Lilith is the consort of Baalzebul, but she is also the Queen of Succubus in the Nine Hells. She got upgraded in 4e.

The info comes from Ecology of the Succubus (Fallen Angels) [Dragon 417]. Lilith and Glasya relationship is more explored in Codex of Betrayal: Glasya [Dungeon 197].

BTW, Lynkhab is mentioned in Demonomicon (the sourcebook), but I guess there is nothing about her besides her name in the roll of demon lords.

EDIT:

I have a list of some articles of interest here:
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15113#p171072

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jul 2018 22:36:23
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sleyvas
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USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2018 :  02:06:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Zero, mainly because you just pointed me to an Ed Greenwood article in Dragon 417 that I just loved (that being the Sword of Spells). It somewhat mirrors what I've tried to do with Sleyvas (granted before I ever wrote up what I was doing with him), in that I turned him into an artifact (called the Red Book of Spell Strategy) that can change shape and work as a living spellbook, a "wheel of spells" deck, a gaming set, or a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon that the artifact itself chooses to appear as (when he's mad at you, he appears as a simple dagger). Anyway, his "Sword of Savras" is going around the countryside endowing spells upon wizards that it fights, and my "Red Book of Spell Strategy" is going around the world teaching spellcasters not only spells, but strategy, as a servant of the Red Knight.

Hmm, also this issue has stuff on Tenebrous...let me read that since they've "done" something with him... hmmm, good recap of Dead Gods

And on to the article I really meant to read... hmmm, so all "succubi" in the abyss loyal to Graz'ztare corrupted to being male.... yeah, that's something I'm throwing out as stupid and not matching prior lore... Ok, and Malcanthet is a demon lord who "birthed" succubi from other demon lords. Malcanthet in this 4e article is still a demon lord in November 2012. HOWEVER, the Godborn is a transition story between 4e and 5e published in 2013. She's obviously IN Hell openly serving Asmodeus, which I find as unacceptable to other demons AND devils... so I choose to personally believe she was deposed and has gone to Hell. Works fine for me if there's multiple "Queens of the Succubi". I was already going for 3 with Shami-Amourae released, Malcanthet, and the "vestige" of Lynkhab. Lilith being another works.

Wow though, that Codex of Betrayal: Glasya article in dungeon 197... now THAT was some research. I like that storyline, though whether there are any broken parts of it, I'm not sure... my lore of the outer planes is weaker than my FR lore. I like it though, and it seems to fit most of the stories I've heard in the past.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  17:23:10  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spoiler alert

In Hero Malcanthet is back somehow to being a Demon Lord, has possessed people in the Cold Lands region of FR where is running amok.

She as such is neither in the Abyss or in Hell, Unlike the other demon lords Malchanet used possession of mortal hosts with aid of a Drow house to avoid being sent back like the other demon lords were. Instead she's running a run FR doing who knows what, after being forced out of a Queens body.


Edited by - Gyor on 06 Jul 2018 17:29:25
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  17:31:32  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Lynkhab isn't trying to become a goddess. She became a personification of desire; the catch being that by becoming Desire Itself, she could no longer act on her own desires. That's why she's the Lady of Desire and Depression; the catch-22 of her existence has resulted in her wanting to die. She can't kill herself, which makes it all the worse, as her own passions end up resurrecting her.

I think that particular take on a succubus queen - becoming the ideal of her race and torn between loving and hating it - makes her a vastly more interesting figure than Demogorgon's gf and ex. She's gone beyond the petty quarrels of the Throne of Ripe Flesh, becoming something more than a mere succubus-queen. The catch being that she's thoroughly miserable about it.



I knew the Lykhab couldn't act on her desires, but I didn't know why until now.

She is the perfect fiend pact warlock patron then.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2018 :  17:33:25  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Lynkhab isn't trying to become a goddess. She became a personification of desire; the catch being that by becoming Desire Itself, she could no longer act on her own desires. That's why she's the Lady of Desire and Depression; the catch-22 of her existence has resulted in her wanting to die. She can't kill herself, which makes it all the worse, as her own passions end up resurrecting her.

I think that particular take on a succubus queen - becoming the ideal of her race and torn between loving and hating it - makes her a vastly more interesting figure than Demogorgon's gf and ex. She's gone beyond the petty quarrels of the Throne of Ripe Flesh, becoming something more than a mere succubus-queen. The catch being that she's thoroughly miserable about it.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  01:53:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Spoiler alert

In Hero Malcanthet is back somehow to being a Demon Lord, has possessed people in the Cold Lands region of FR where is running amok.

She as such is neither in the Abyss or in Hell, Unlike the other demon lords Malchanet used possession of mortal hosts with aid of a Drow house to avoid being sent back like the other demon lords were. Instead she's running a run FR doing who knows what, after being forced out of a Queens body.





Ah, newer canon trumps old then. Where in the cold lands? Just curious. So, if she's NOT in the outer planes, why not?

BTW, why did all the demon lords come to Toril supposedly in the first place? I never got that storyline.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31236 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2018 :  03:50:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


BTW, why did all the demon lords come to Toril supposedly in the first place? I never got that storyline.



To attend one hell of an awesome rave.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1308 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2018 :  10:09:30  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Spoiler alert

In Hero Malcanthet is back somehow to being a Demon Lord, has possessed people in the Cold Lands region of FR where is running amok.

She as such is neither in the Abyss or in Hell, Unlike the other demon lords Malchanet used possession of mortal hosts with aid of a Drow house to avoid being sent back like the other demon lords were. Instead she's running a run FR doing who knows what, after being forced out of a Queens body.





Ah, newer canon trumps old then. Where in the cold lands? Just curious. So, if she's NOT in the outer planes, why not?

BTW, why did all the demon lords come to Toril supposedly in the first place? I never got that storyline.



A bunch of Demon Lords came, but not all of them, that would likely have destroyed Toril, it was most of the big names.

I believe they we're sent back except Malcanthet which possessed mortals to get around being sent back to the Abyss. She is still out there.

As for why the demon lords came in the first place, I believe that Archmage of Menz was manipulated into summoning them by Lolth.

This ironically actually saved Tymamther because Unther couldn't get demonic reinforcements during the war.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  00:14:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Spoiler alert

In Hero Malcanthet is back somehow to being a Demon Lord, has possessed people in the Cold Lands region of FR where is running amok.

She as such is neither in the Abyss or in Hell, Unlike the other demon lords Malchanet used possession of mortal hosts with aid of a Drow house to avoid being sent back like the other demon lords were. Instead she's running a run FR doing who knows what, after being forced out of a Queens body.





Ah, newer canon trumps old then. Where in the cold lands? Just curious. So, if she's NOT in the outer planes, why not?

BTW, why did all the demon lords come to Toril supposedly in the first place? I never got that storyline.



A bunch of Demon Lords came, but not all of them, that would likely have destroyed Toril, it was most of the big names.

I believe they we're sent back except Malcanthet which possessed mortals to get around being sent back to the Abyss. She is still out there.

As for why the demon lords came in the first place, I believe that Archmage of Menz was manipulated into summoning them by Lolth.

This ironically actually saved Tymamther because Unther couldn't get demonic reinforcements during the war.



So, the archmage of Menzoberranzan is supposedly so powerful that he can summon not one... but like a dozen or so... demon lords to Toril?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker

USA
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Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  19:08:17  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Sleyvas Does it take a more power for subsequent summons? Or does it just take the initial magic to open a portal "big" enough for single Lord that they all end up using?

Never seen a real in depth look at the in-universe mechanics of magic is why I'm asking.

Edited by - Archmage of Nowhere on 12 Jul 2018 19:09:15
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  19:33:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if it's been reflected in the rules or not, but in the fiction, the more powerful the entity called from another plane, the more magical oomph it takes. It's more difficult to compel them to appear, to hold them on the Prime, and to force them to do what you want.

Powerful entities can ignore summons, in fact, if the summoner isn't strong enough -- though it's not uncommon for a more powerful entity to allow itself to be summoned by a weak summoner, just so that it can break free and do whatever it wants. This frequently does not end well for the summoner.

I don't know the circumstances of all these demon lords popping up in the Realms, but I'd expect it either took multiple casters working together, or someone opening a portal to the appropriate Lower Planes that anything could come thru, or the actions of a deity. Even an archmage would have issues with a single demon lord, so multiple ones should be impossible for one mortal. Some of these demon lords rival the gods, in raw power.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3981 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  19:39:36  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Game mechanics aside, summoning should be no easy task.

You are pulling (If only temporarily) a powerful outsider into the material plane to assist you.

Now these outsiders do not sit around waiting for summons. The abyss is a hot bed of politics as the powerful demons vie to win portions of the blood war and steal as many souls as they can.
The more powerful the outsider the more intelligent he is and the more involved in these politics.

These beings do not have to answer a summons. You can call upon asmodeus to appear but unless asmodeus is going to get something worthwhile out of it (a millions souls perhaps) then you might as well try and go round to Windsor palace for a chat with the queen (it ain't happening).

So to call a demon Lord you need a really compelling gift (signing away your own soul is not going to be sufficient), or you need some way to force them to appear. These demon lords command the allegiance of a million million demons, if you can't do the same then they arent going to listen. The only way I can think of you forcing a demon Lord to come when you call is if you know their true name and they will be very peeved when they turn up.

So either that archangel had hundreds of artefacts that he traded away to get a dozen demon lords to appear or he knew the secret names of some of the most powerful beings in existence (And I'm willing to bet they annihilated whole planets to keep that information secret).

Just my two cents on how magic summoning works. Even if lolth was personally helping (and I hate direct intervention by gods) how did she get hold of the true names of these beings when she can't even conquer their domains (she just isn't powerful enough to get that kind of info - I don't think anyone is)

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Archmage of Nowhere
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Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  21:30:28  Show Profile Send Archmage of Nowhere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I remember reading that in regards to the Gate spell in 2E. That the summoning was taxing but not out the range of possibility and that what was summoned didn't have to answer I think it actually mentioned asmodeus directly in its example lol. I always thought it was strange that fiends or devils wanted to make a appearance in the prime material but couldn't find a reliable means to it. It dosnt take a power cost to keep them here I don't think. Just curious if the lore supported like a Permanency + Gate sort of theory to this demon lord summoning.

I also wouldn't really put it past Lolth to directly help/force this summoning through her 'deceptions' but I feel like too much could be explained that way.

It also seems like the effect of this summoning hasn't put any compulsion on these creatures, given how Malcanthet is just kinda doing whatever she feels like.
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  22:59:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere

@Sleyvas Does it take a more power for subsequent summons? Or does it just take the initial magic to open a portal "big" enough for single Lord that they all end up using?

Never seen a real in depth look at the in-universe mechanics of magic is why I'm asking.



Most demon lords wouldn't LIKE being summoned, so each summoning should have been against their will... but I don't know the story... I wouldn't be surprised though if menzoberranzan were a memory now if they'd honestly pulled Orcus, Graz'zt, Demogorgon, etc... all from the abyss to Toril. Unless they somehow did it in a hidden way, which would be hard, but not impossible. Wouldn't make sense, but possible.... of course, I'd expect at least one of them to figure it out and then go trash the city.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2018 :  23:58:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you played Out of the Abyss? That adventure is related to those events.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  18:34:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Have you played Out of the Abyss? That adventure is related to those events.



No, I picked it up, but I haven't read it fully yet. Does it get into the nitty gritty of why/how the demon lords came? Is it believable?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  19:55:28  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, is never explained why. The Demon Lords are already destroying things in the Underdark when the adventure starts. I guess the stuff is Menzo is mentioned, but not detailed.

Like, "drow archmage Gromph Baenre lets his magic get a little bit away from him, resulting in all of the demon lords (but one) out from the Abyss and into the Underdark (those being Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy – Lolth stays behind because this is her plan, and she wants to have the Abyss to herself)."

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Jul 2018 19:58:17
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  20:20:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

IIRC, is never explained why. The Demon Lords are already destroying things in the Underdark when the adventure starts. I guess the stuff is Menzo is mentioned, but not detailed.

Like, "drow archmage Gromph Baenre lets his magic get a little bit away from him, resulting in all of the demon lords (but one) out from the Abyss and into the Underdark (those being Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy – Lolth stays behind because this is her plan, and she wants to have the Abyss to herself)."



The only thing worse than blaming it on one person that couldn't and wouldn't cause that kind of a mess is not bothering with a proper explanation at all.

Thinks I that you could make an entire campaign based on stopping a group of mages from being able to bring in a demon lord (or two) in person.

Don't bother with this "stop a bunch of near-gods from running around" rot, keep the focus on keeping that door closed -- perhaps with the final, climatic battle being to push back the first interloper and close that door in their face.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7156 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2018 :  21:07:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

IIRC, is never explained why. The Demon Lords are already destroying things in the Underdark when the adventure starts. I guess the stuff is Menzo is mentioned, but not detailed.

Like, "drow archmage Gromph Baenre lets his magic get a little bit away from him, resulting in all of the demon lords (but one) out from the Abyss and into the Underdark (those being Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb’luu, Graz’zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zuggtmoy – Lolth stays behind because this is her plan, and she wants to have the Abyss to herself)."



Wait, so the one goddess who busily made her own realm outside the abyss.....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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