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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:08:57  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well, it seems almost every time I start digging into the ancient history of Faerun this place comes up.

The Citadel of the Raven

Aside from information gained from Ed:

quote:
History Of The Citadel

The Citadel of the Raven actually is a chain of ancient stone fortresses, linked by tunnels, low walls, and high stone bridges. Stone ravens were carved on its battlements, facing north (hence its name), and it has seemingly always been there and always known as The Citadel of the Raven. It was old when men of the Inner Sea reached Dragon Sea and built now-lost Northkeep.

The abandoned keep served as a refuge for human and half-orc bandits, and several successive bands of them were routed out of it as the human presence in the North grew. Some sages believe the Citadel’s existence proves there was once a grand human kingdom in the North, and that men are an older race than demihumans and humanoids. Elminster and others hold that the Citadel is a remnant of a realm whose people fell back into barbarism under repeated orc and ogre attacks.

Today, the survivors make up the “Horse Tribes” of the Ride. This realm’s existence, Elminster contends, proves nothing about the age of mankind or human greatness in Faerun, only that human history in the Moonsea North goes back beyond reliable record.


I was looking into information about what makes humans a Creator Race, and it all comes back here.

Does anyone have any additional information about the Citadel of the Raven that gives more clarity than this from Ed?

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:34:43  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Close variation of that from the Moonsea sourcebook

Citadel of the Raven
The Citadel of the Raven, located on the western edge of the Dragonspine Mountains, is a series of interconnected fortresses carved out of the mountains. Vaulting stone bridges and dozens of low, snaking walls and tunnels form the links. The entire complex is huge, stretching over a distance of ten miles.

The Citadel has existed as far back as even the most ancient elves can remember. Scholars suggest that the Citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed here long before recorded history. Some sages have further theorized that the barbarians of the Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization.

Up until the 1250's, the Citadel was used as a refuge by human and half-orc bandits. These marauders were entirely wiped out when civilization advanced north. In the year 1276 DR, the Year of the Crumbling Keep, the powers at Zhentil Keep met with representatives of the other Moonsea cities and suggested that the Citadel be manned by a joint force. Zhentil envoys further suggested that the alliance rebuild the Citadel's defenses to protect the Moon sea's frontiers and merchant caravans. Since barbarians from the Ride were harassing caravans, and the ogres and orcs of the North had retaken Thar, the plan was eagerly accepted.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:39:08  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ruins of Zhentil keep has a very detailed modern history of the Citadel - not that you asked about that :P
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:45:33  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS

c. –18000 DR (est.)
Logical estimates suggest that the Citadel of the Raven [1276] was constructed in this period. Some scholars purport that the citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed on Faerûn long before recorded history. Sages have further theorized that the barbarians of The Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization. The Citadel of the Raven is a series of interconnected fortresses carved high on the northern slopes of the Dragonspine Mountains north of Teshwave. For many years, human and half-orc bandits used the citadel as a refuge, but civilization wiped these marauders out as it advanced north.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:55:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS

c. –18000 DR (est.)
Logical estimates suggest that the Citadel of the Raven [1276] was constructed in this period. Some scholars purport that the citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed on Faerûn long before recorded history. Sages have further theorized that the barbarians of The Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization. The Citadel of the Raven is a series of interconnected fortresses carved high on the northern slopes of the Dragonspine Mountains north of Teshwave. For many years, human and half-orc bandits used the citadel as a refuge, but civilization wiped these marauders out as it advanced north.





Yep, I have that too...and that The Sundering took place a mere four hundred years later.

Which I'm guessing is the reason for the collapse of the civilization that constructed the place.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  05:59:10  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The tale of Dirg, Warrior of the Snow People from Ruins of adventure. It is an old story of the Northmen he heard while serving at the Citadel of the Raven across the Dragonspine Mountains.

Dirg was, as he puts it, the usual barbarian hero—the type able to snap five men’s backs with his bare hands, wrestle and tame the cloud horses, pierce a man with a javelin from miles away, and other equally preposterous things. The story goes that Dirg, while wandering with his men in the snowy wastes, found a pool of unfrozen water. The water was so hot it boiled the skin from his pet Jezma, a little lizard that wandered too close. Angered, he thrust his spear into the pool and roiled the waters. This disturbed a demon of fire who rose out to do battle with Dirg. The demon leapt from man to man, consuming them but could not defeat Dirg, but neither could Dirg find a weapon strong enough to withstand the creature’s heat. After battling for an entire day, Dirg finally called upon his totem god for aid. With this magical power, Dirg was able to trap the flaming demon in a triangle of power, where it supposedly is even to this day. Beyond this colorful tale he can only say that the Northlands are filled with many undiscovered wonders.


This suggests that Tyrantraxus was involved with people of the North / old occupants of the citadel.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  06:01:09  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also - the map from the Netheril box set has The Eastern Forest right about where the citadel should be. Even assuming the map cuts off right before the citadel (and the nearby mountains) this is a major change in the flora of the region.

Basically the Border Forest once extended all the way to the citadel

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 11 Jan 2018 06:03:12
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  06:01:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The tale of Dirg, Warrior of the Snow People from Ruins of adventure. It is an old story of the Northmen he heard while serving at the Citadel of the Raven across the Dragonspine Mountains.

Dirg was, as he puts it, the usual barbarian hero—the type able to snap five men’s backs with his bare hands, wrestle and tame the cloud horses, pierce a man with a javelin from miles away, and other equally preposterous things. The story goes that Dirg, while wandering with his men in the snowy wastes, found a pool of unfrozen water. The water was so hot it boiled the skin from his pet Jezma, a little lizard that wandered too close. Angered, he thrust his spear into the pool and roiled the waters. This disturbed a demon of fire who rose out to do battle with Dirg. The demon leapt from man to man, consuming them but could not defeat Dirg, but neither could Dirg find a weapon strong enough to withstand the creature’s heat. After battling for an entire day, Dirg finally called upon his totem god for aid. With this magical power, Dirg was able to trap the flaming demon in a triangle of power, where it supposedly is even to this day. Beyond this colorful tale he can only say that the Northlands are filled with many undiscovered wonders.


This suggests that Tyrantraxus was involved with people of the North / old occupants of the citadel.



I think of Tyranthraxus as "Tyrant Hraxus"...The Snow People aren't the same as the Eraka though as far as I can tell.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  06:16:39  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Also - the map from the Netheril box set has The Eastern Forest right about where the citadel should be. Even assuming the map cuts off right before the citadel (and the nearby mountains) this is a major change in the flora of the region.

Basically the Border Forest once extended all the way to the citadel



I hadn't thought about that before: that where the Citadel now is there may have once been a Forest Realm. Not Elven, but still that would allow for a resource rich realm.

I'm still leaning heavily to the place having been the origin place of the Celtic Pantheon which later went to Earth.

If the Citadel was built at c. -18,000 DR (that would be at about 20,000 B.C. very roughly) the "Celts" were still living near the Caspian and hadn't even started to worship the Celtic Gods as we know them now.

I'm both happy and disappointed at the amount of information about the first human "Creator Race" of Faerun...

Happy that it gives free reign to do whatever, but wishing for a little more guidance from history.

AD&D for me!
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Jan 2018 :  06:18:38  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The tale of Dirg, Warrior of the Snow People from Ruins of adventure. It is an old story of the Northmen he heard while serving at the Citadel of the Raven across the Dragonspine Mountains.

Dirg was, as he puts it, the usual barbarian hero—the type able to snap five men’s backs with his bare hands, wrestle and tame the cloud horses, pierce a man with a javelin from miles away, and other equally preposterous things. The story goes that Dirg, while wandering with his men in the snowy wastes, found a pool of unfrozen water. The water was so hot it boiled the skin from his pet Jezma, a little lizard that wandered too close. Angered, he thrust his spear into the pool and roiled the waters. This disturbed a demon of fire who rose out to do battle with Dirg. The demon leapt from man to man, consuming them but could not defeat Dirg, but neither could Dirg find a weapon strong enough to withstand the creature’s heat. After battling for an entire day, Dirg finally called upon his totem god for aid. With this magical power, Dirg was able to trap the flaming demon in a triangle of power, where it supposedly is even to this day. Beyond this colorful tale he can only say that the Northlands are filled with many undiscovered wonders.


This suggests that Tyrantraxus was involved with people of the North / old occupants of the citadel.



Couple this from rumors from Mysteries of the Moonsea:

-Manshoon derives a good portion of his arcane power from secret fonts of magical energy beneath the Citadel of the Raven.

-There is a magic pool beneath the Citadel of the Raven that grants immunity to injury.

-The mini-adventure that leads to a pool that makes one resistant to harm

This suggests to me that there exists a stable pool of radiance somewhere beneath the Citadel of the Raven. (Stable enough for it to be there in ancient times for that story and still in the 1370s)
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 12 Jan 2018 :  22:31:59  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Happy that it gives free reign to do whatever, but wishing for a little more guidance from history.


-One thing I think we can gleam, given all the sources, is that it probably wasn't very "grand". Probably very isolated, too.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 13 Jan 2018 :  16:56:37  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know about the not very grand part... 18000 years ago is a LONG time. How much do we know about whatever societies existed on Earth that long ago - damn near nothing. A few pieces of pottery and some paintings. To build a chain of fortresses which clearly exist to counter the advantages of some other powerful force is impressive.

Even in FR all we have from that time are the very scattered stories of the elves that we got from the Evermeet novel and that dates from GH. Remembering that the novel was a series of tales, we have no idea how true or false that info is. Maybe humans had an incredible empire up there we just don't know about. No way to know.
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  01:19:51  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-But we have sources that go back to those olden days. They talk about ancient Elven empires, and ancient Dragon barons, and the Yuan-Ti and the Giants, and everyone else. Humans existed, we know this, but they did not have the influence that those other groups had. Any kind of "grand civilization", I postulate, would have attracted the attention of any number of those groups, many of whom would have been hostile (Yuan-Ti, most Dragons, most Giants). Existing and having a civilization that was low key and designed to not attract attention (of which, low-tech mountain hideouts and fortresses would seem to fit) would make more sense.

(Of course, this is a fictional world and the lack of evidence is just a lack of something being written, which could be inserted anytime.)

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  02:20:23  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yaunt-ti, not a problem - too far north - too cold for lizards and snakes. Dragons - the elves dealt with them, so they are no more of an issue then than 18000 years later. The major concerns would be the elves who were just starting to expand at that time and the giant/goblinoid races. Just like today. Seems like a good reason to build a fortress - or even several of them linked together that is so bad-ass it lasts for 18000 years. My guess it that was exactly the situation.

Similarly, we know nothing of the civilizations from anywhere else on Toril at that time. The histories don't go back that far. Kara Tur, Zhakara or Maztica might have been booming human realms already - with their genies and spirit gods and such. Who knows.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  02:32:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS

c. –18000 DR (est.)
Logical estimates suggest that the Citadel of the Raven [1276] was constructed in this period. Some scholars purport that the citadel is irrefutable evidence that a grand human nation existed on Faerûn long before recorded history. Sages have further theorized that the barbarians of The Ride are the descendants of that once-great civilization. The Citadel of the Raven is a series of interconnected fortresses carved high on the northern slopes of the Dragonspine Mountains north of Teshwave. For many years, human and half-orc bandits used the citadel as a refuge, but civilization wiped these marauders out as it advanced north.





This is really interesting... but elves have been in the Realms since way before. They created the Dracorage Mythal in -24500. This means the elves had a civilization during that time, civilized enough to have that kind of magic. Ilefarn is like from –22900 DR, meaning the humans from the Raven Citadel aren't the oldest civilization of the North, either.

This can't be used as evidence that humans were a creator race, as well, as all of them existed before -30000 DR.


Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 14 Jan 2018 :  04:24:37  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I was going back further than 18,000 DR, yeah, my timing was off. But, that point stands, that it wasn't likely that a grand human realm existed during the beginning of "The First Flowering" Era.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  19:12:43  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way it is looking, humans would have had to have had a civilization well before elves even came to Faerun.

Something that existed in a "Garden of Eden" type place that was destroyed and they were cast out.

It's looking like the Citadel of the Raven wouldn't even be connected to such a place.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  22:53:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The majority of those original humans may have gone to Abeir, and subsequently been subdued by dragons when their magic failed them.

Also, look at Dungeon 170

Barbarians of the Ride
Also known as the Horse Nomads of the Golden Steppes, these primitive plains dwellers consist of many independent tribes, each with distinct customs and governed by feuding war-chieftains.
The Vaegould: One of the more aggressive tribes of the Ride, Vaegould tradition demands young warriors perform the “ritual of bloodfire” before they are accepted as full members of the tribe. The bloodthirsty “gods” worshiped by the Vaegould are in fact elemental princes or aspects of ancient primordials. The imminent return of Maram of the Great Spear has brought this tribe out of the remote wilderness to harry the more civilized settlements of The Ride under the protection of Phlan.
The Varm: Unlike the Vaegould, the Varm practice totem magic and venerate primal spirits. They are also a more contemplative tribe, eschewing war for peaceful coexistence with their neighbors. Centuries
ago, the Varm joined in the alliance to drive Maram of the Great Spear from these lands.


also this
When the heroes mention Maram of the Great Spear from the account of the Varm shaman, read:
“Maram of the Great Spear!” the startled Opanrael exclaims in a high whisper. “Though that name is unknown to most living today, in centuries past its very mention would bring about an involuntary shudder and a momentary vision of unconscionable acts of violence and brutality. Maram is one of the Seven Lost Gods—a misnomer, of course, as he was in fact no god at all, but a prince of elemental evil, a primordial scion of the Elemental Chaos. The primitive tribes of the Moonsea North, human or otherwise, venerated the Lost Seven. In exchange, their debased sorcerers and shamans were granted power of raw elemental fury.

“In the end, Maram was driven back to the Inner Planes, locked away from the mortal world by a powerful Imaskari ritual known as Divine Barrier.”


also this from that adventure

Entry 17
From the scribblings of Gaylyn Dimswart Wyvernspur, Sage Most Learned of the Royal Court of Cormyr, in the Year of the Halls Unhaunted (1407 DR).
New evidence supports my theory that the Barbarians of the Ride are the product of a mingling between two ancient peoples: the Rengarth tribes of Netheril and the remnants of an even older civilization of man that fell into ruin during the First Flowering. The oral traditions of one tribe in particular, the Varm, bespeak of direct descendancy from the founders of the Citadel of the Raven and its fabled
progenitor culture.



This dungeon adventure also has some interesting asides regarding the Dark Three and the Seven Lost Gods.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Jan 2018 22:54:42
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Jan 2018 :  23:22:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way... THIS

In the end, Maram was driven back to the Inner Planes, locked away from the mortal world by a powerful Imaskari ritual known as Divine Barrier.”

could be used to hint at something some of us have said around here... basically that some of what we think of as gods MAY be something akin to Primordials. Basically, when I look at the male gods of the Untheric pantheon, they have strong ties to dragons and elements. The number of "storm gods" (Enlil, Marduk, Ramman, Assuran of the Three Thunders) and "fire/sun gods" (Girru, Utu), water (Ishtar), plus beings such as Ki (nature), Tiamat (could be like a primordial). It would be harder to equate the Mulhorandi gods along the same line as elemental type primordials, but their appearance as manifestations with animal heads might hint at something similar, such as primal spirits or archfey of a different sort. So, the Imaskari Divine barrier may have been preventing "non-gods" from entering if they weren't already here (so primal spirits, archfey, primordials, etc...).

Or of course, the guy talking in that adventure could just be confused.... nothing says he's correct.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
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Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  09:47:51  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well.... I have to wonder if the citadel of the raven was the seat of a once mortal RAven Queen....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
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Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  11:24:56  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could humans have had a type of Atlantis that was either destroyed by enemies or destroyed by their own folly?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 16 Jan 2018 :  12:40:01  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

well.... I have to wonder if the citadel of the raven was the seat of a once mortal RAven Queen....



I'd not think the name citadel of the raven comes from the ancient past. How would they know that and nothing else?
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