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Seethyr
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USA
760 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  16:42:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Do we know anything more about the Ice Hunters brought up in the Rise of Tiamat from the Sea of Moving Ice? Do they have connection to the folks of the Great Glacier? Is their more info anywhere on their culture other than what came up in RoT?

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2946 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  17:38:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, the Ice Hunters are the western group of Ulutiun humans from Kara-Tur, the eastern group being the humans of the Great Glacier. Eric Boyd established this bond in Races of Faerun.

The most information on their culture is in The North for 2e; the only other tidbit I found is that they traded at Quesseer under the Terraseer (from LEoF and GHotR).
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Seethyr
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USA
760 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  18:15:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh that’s awesome thank you. I’m assuming culturally then, they will have some major Eskimo similarities like the Ulutians in the Great Glacier.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  18:28:51  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Oh that’s awesome thank you. I’m assuming culturally then, they will have some major Eskimo similarities like the Ulutians in the Great Glacier.



Yes, that's what we have so far.

I'm working through a detailed investigation of the North and I haven't really figured out how to account for them yet in detail.

I'm thinking their presence in the North has something to do with Ulutiu being described as a "minor sea deity of the Savage Frontier."

Here are some draft notes so far, subject to change:

c. –25500 Ulutiu sails through the northern polar waters to reach the Trackless Sea, where he begins an affair with Othea. The union of Othea and Ulutiu ultimately produces four sons: firbolg, verbeeg, voadkyn, and fomorian. The presence of Ulutiu and his necklace in the northern Trackless Sea causes the Sea of Moving Ice to expand southwards, enveloping the northern isles of Gundarlun, Tuern, the Ice Peak, the Purple Rocks, and Umukek in ice. The bronze dragon Clanlands of Aujirkepeskhesjing slowly collapse in the face of the advancing ice.

–c. 3200 Ulutiu departs the Trackless Sea, sailing north around the northern reaches of Faerûn to the Great Ice Sea. The Sea of Moving Ice slowly begins to retreat to its current borders.

–3000 Migrating eastward, Ruathen humans found the settlement of Illusk at the mouth of the River Mirar, displacing the local Ice Hunter tribes (Ulutiuns).

I'm thinking the Ice Hunters followed Ulutiu west to the Swordsea Coast, but I haven't squared the above-dates yet with the dates in FR14 - The Great Glacier or the text in Races of Faerun, so it might not work.

--Eric

--
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Edited by - ericlboyd on 20 Jan 2020 18:29:42
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Seethyr
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USA
760 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  18:35:14  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh wow that’s some great insight into a culture I’m really interested in! I don’t have my resources with me now but I hope they also have access to those dog-like creatures (Kapok?) and have frequent battles with those centipede/dragon/remorhaz creatures from Great Glacier.

Another related question. Could there be any contact in the past with the predecessors of the Posocada elves who in FMQ1 City of Gold were said to have descended from “elves from the frozen lands of the north.”

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  18:46:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bronze dragon clan lands of xxxxx, sounds awesome, where did they come from?

Are you of the opinion perhaps that ulutius necklace has sunk into the sea and been stolen and then returned many times to recreate the great glacier many times over.

Also, what of the draconomicon and its mention that the first dragons (created by the aearee) resembled a wyvern more than a modern dragon. At what point do you think the dragons came to be dragons (I guess by the time the moving sea ice hits the bronze dragon clan lands).

I've just been debating whether to look at the great glacier or cormyr, thinking that nobody else was going to touch them anytime soon. I guess I shall do cormyr if you have plans for the region.

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2946 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  19:21:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So did Ulutiu go Great Glacier then to the Swordsea, or go East then West then East again, or what, Eric?
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  19:58:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I imagine ulutiu came to the sea that would be the great glacier but then got caught in the cross fire between the war between giants and dragons, and then got killed.

The humans could have spread out in all directions, a few going west to the sword coast, a few going south to the anauroch basin and the hordelands (the ulou are everywhere)

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  21:10:43  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Oh wow that’s some great insight into a culture I’m really interested in! I don’t have my resources with me now but I hope they also have access to those dog-like creatures (Kapok?) and have frequent battles with those centipede/dragon/remorhaz creatures from Great Glacier.

Another related question. Could there be any contact in the past with the predecessors of the Posocada elves who in FMQ1 City of Gold were said to have descended from “elves from the frozen lands of the north.”



To be honest, I really haven't thought much about Maztica or where the Poscada elves came from. A land bridge across the polar sea before the arrival of the moon and gold elves might be the most likely.

There's some argument the Ulutiuns could be battling haun and haundar as well as the creatures you mention.

--
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  21:31:20  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Bronze dragon clan lands of xxxxx, sounds awesome, where did they come from?


My thought is that in the period of -30,000 to -24,000 DR, the Savage North was divided into white dragon clanlands (Utter North), silver dragon clanlands (Spine of the World), bronze dragon clanlands (Trackless Sea islands), and gree dragon clanlands (forests). To the east are the giants of Ostoria, who rule the Graypeaks and points east to the Great Glacier. (This last part is vague, since the combination of novels and Giantcraft made such a hash of Ostoria with no sense of geography. If Hartvale was put among the Galenas, it would have been far better.)

quote:
Are you of the opinion perhaps that ulutius necklace has sunk into the sea and been stolen and then returned many times to recreate the great glacier many times over.


The Realms doesn't need science to explain climate change. Faerun has gods and magic. My thought is Ulutiu is the god of the northern ocean. He wears the necklace as he sails around in his boat. Wherever he "hangs out" freezes over. So he was close to Sossal, then he sails to the Trackless Sea, then he sails back, and then he leaves the Realms, leaving the necklace behind. That explains why the Great Glacier shrinks circa -25500 DR and grows circa -2550 DR.

quote:
Also, what of the draconomicon and its mention that the first dragons (created by the aearee) resembled a wyvern more than a modern dragon. At what point do you think the dragons came to be dragons (I guess by the time the moving sea ice hits the bronze dragon clan lands).


I think that the Draconomicon origin of dragons is debatable. I'd go with the Tearfall theory, as laid out in -31000 in GHotR.

"Most scholars now speculate that at about this date a comet or ice moon fell from the sky, devastating much of Abeir-Toril, and refer to this event as the Tearfall. The four Inner Seas merge together to form the body of water known today as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tens of thousands of dragon eggs soon hatch across Toril. The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the batrachi civilization."

I think the dragon eggs were in the falling meteors and the Tearfall seeded the Realms with the eggs. The aearee might have just claimed credit, or they might have modified the eggs, but very quickly the aearee are at war with the dragons.

In other words, Loremaster Ignace Dethingeller was full of it.

quote:
I've just been debating whether to look at the great glacier or cormyr, thinking that nobody else was going to touch them anytime soon. I guess I shall do cormyr if you have plans for the region.



I'm not doing anything with the Great Glacier other than figuring out when and why the Ulutiuns arrived in the Savage North.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  22:21:26  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would also differentiate between my writing for the Realms and my personal campaign.

In writing for the Realms, I always try to incorporate what has come before and not directly contradict anything someone else has written. I might minimize, expound upon, twist, or otherwise play with it, but I try not to counter the basic facts.

That said I'm not a fan of:
1) Earth cultures. (No Arabian Nights, Eskimos, Mayans, or Ghengis Khan for me.)
2) Name-drop groups. (Don't put the Emerald Enclave in the North if they are a Vilhon Reach-based group. Emerald Enclave is not code for "druidish group". Don't put arctic dwarves or Zhentarim in the Silver Marches. Etc.)

So, in my personal campaign, there are no arctic dwarves. (Why do we need two pseudo-Eskimo cultures?) I would replace them with glacier dwarves from Frostburn.

In some stuff I'm writing up to share eventually, I dealt with the arctic dwarves in the Silver Marches as follows:

Luxgrovisvixen: “Lux” or “Torch” (CN(G) male mature adult red dragon) is a relatively small, rogue, red dragon, given to unorthodox philosophical contemplation. In the Year of the Winged Gift (1156), Luxgrovisvixen and another dragon battled the Company of Stagcrown Star on the slopes of Mount Caumarath (see page 108). After the other dragon and most of the adventurers died, Torch realized that killing other creatures was wrong. He relocated his lair to Mount __, amidst the Spine of the World and retreated into a role of quiet contemplation.
If not for the recent Rage of Dragons, Luxgrovisvixen might have lived out the remainder of his life as a quiet observer. However, in the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), consumed by the Dracorage, Luxgrovisvixen slaughtered the Stout Folk of Frostrill, leaving the settlement in the depths of the Druarwood in ruins. Ever since, Torch has sought to atone for his crimes. He can often be seen winging high above the Moonlands, keeping watch on goings-on below. On at least three occasions, he has intervened when another dragon attacked a group of dwarves. While the longbeards of Citadel Adbar appreciate Torch’s support for the Stout Folk, they are growing increasingly concerned that Luxgrovisvixen is descending into madness and cannot be trusted.

I also got rid of the Zhentarim, since we know from Son of Thunder that Elaacrimalicros was active and flying over the Star Mounts during the Rage of Dragons.

"During the Rage of Dragons, Elaacrimalicros, an ancient green dragon of the Star Mounts (see Crown of Eaerlann: Fallen Kingdoms of the High Forest), ranged far to the north, where he destroyed the fledgling settlement [of Newfort], devastating the Zhentarim presence in the Silver Marches and dealing a sharp check to the Black Network’s ambitions in the region."

--
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Edited by - ericlboyd on 14 Feb 2020 03:00:19
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
760 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  00:46:45  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did a thorough rereading of Great Glacier and just wanted to address some items that came up in this thread.

1. Ulutiu's barge sunk in -2550 (year zero in the Ulutian calendar). Got this because 1359 DR corresponds to 3909 UC (my own abbreviation there). That's when it started freezing. It's alluded that he is still there with his necklace and if it were removed the glacier would start melting.

2. The Innugaakalikurit arctic dwarves arrived in the Novularond in -2,274 because they refused to raid the Border Forest (doesn't say whom...elves?) and were exiled from the Tortured Lands.

3. The Iulutiuns (we've been conflating a specific group with the general inhabitants) were originally hunters from Sossal who got chased further into the glacier by rampaging tirichik. They renounced their gods and in -1382 found some writings in the ice made by Ulutiu. This second, more religious group are the Nakulutiuns.

Anywhoo, the more I read, the more I am enjoying this. I've also looked at Monstrous Compendium 11 because Mr. Boyd mentioned the haun and haundar. Though they were not mentioned in the Great Glacier, MC11 also introduced a race known as the sha'az which are apparently sworn enemies of the haun. They look like some kind of spider/thri-kreen from frozen lands.




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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  03:09:44  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

3. The Iulutiuns (we've been conflating a specific group with the general inhabitants) were originally hunters from Sossal who got chased further into the glacier by rampaging tirichik. They renounced their gods and in -1382 found some writings in the ice made by Ulutiu. This second, more religious group are the Nakulutiuns.




They can't be from Sossal since the Sossrim have always been described as thus (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: Cyclopedia of the Realms, page 80):

"Far to the north, on the far side of the Great Glader, is the legendary kingdom of Sossal. This remote nation is the home of Sossarhim, a very pale, very blond race that dresses in white, and can conceal themselves among the ice. It is not known whether great magics by their native shamans spared that region of the Great Ice, or if those magics caused it."

As we wrote in Races of Faerun, page 109:

"Although the Ulutiuns have long inhabited the polar reaches of Faerûn, these short, dark-haired, broad-faced humans with light- brown skin are actually migrants from the northern reaches of Kara-Tur who moved westward across the polar icecap millennia ago."

and page 108:

"The Sossrims are the inhabitants of distant Sossal, a frozen land that lies between the Great Glacier and the Great Ice Sea. With skin as pallid as snow and hair with the fine, silver tint of an icicle, the Sossrims have completely adapted to their arctic environment."

--Eric

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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
760 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  03:26:21  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very different people. I’m not an anthropologist, but can skin tone and generic bone structure change that much in that amount of time though? It’s been a few thousand years. Is there a way for the apparently conflicting bits of lore to coexist? Probably not but that means Great Glacier is simply incorrect. The book claims most of its info comes from an explorer named Palus Frohm. Perhaps he had some inaccuracies in his writing.

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Dalor Darden
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USA
3937 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  03:26:45  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sossal reminds me of Hyperborea from Hyboria.

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