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 Loviatar [3.5]
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Qilintha
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23 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2017 :  16:35:09  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello everyone! I've been intrigued by Loviatar lately. It's a Goddess that I think it's often underlooked. It's the Goddess of Pain ,Suffering and Torture and that should give her an huge portfolio as Pain is something that everyone experiences in life under some extent. And yet it's never been seen clear her goal, she hates Talona and Ilmater, and allied with Shar, Bhaal and Bane.

But what would be Loviatar's own goal? What's her story? I was thinking that she might be connected to kytons? I love the idea of them not being baatezu but something else and more ancient than baatezu themselves BUT I am not fond of the Pathfinder idea of connecting the to the Plane of Shadows as in all honesty, the PLane of Shadows is really overused, especially in 3.5 Campaign Setting ( Shaar, Thultanthar...) I mean seems like it's a jolly ready to be used all the time XD.

The only place in the Realms where Loviatar cult is prominent is Dambrath.

I am an huge fan of this board also because of the great ideas you guys can come up with, so I ask for your help ^^

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14041 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  02:23:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I were to do anything with Loviatar and her followers, i'd spin them as something akin to the Mord Sith from the Sword of truth novels. VERY dark.

Funny thing is, I could TOTALLY see her gaining a following amongst the Drow. In fact, she as a large one down in dambrath, with the half-drow (Crinti).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2017 02:34:00
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30235 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  02:35:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never thought that she was much into pain, in general, as she was into deliberate pain, and the suffering that accompanies it.

Stub your toe, break your arm? Meh, she's not that interested.

Torture someone? Deliberately maim someone? Wall someone up without food or water? That's her gig.

At least, that's always been my reading of it.

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Misereor
Learned Scribe

134 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  08:51:33  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

The only place in the Realms where Loviatar cult is prominent is Dambrath.


Isn't she also the (m)patron deity of Melvaunt?
Not sure where I got that. Possibly the third ed. "Sons of Gruumsh" adventure.


What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Qilintha
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23 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  08:52:10  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay : I am not familiar with that series of novel but the word Sith picks my interest. And I agree with you that Loviatar could certainly gain a following amongst the Drow. Drow are indeed sadistic creatures and their cults are female centered. It'd be an interesting idea a war between Loviatar and Lolth considering also Loviatar is Legal and Lolth is Chaotic (I think that Dambrath is a one-of-a kind thing, because of historical reasons, a drow city underneath that is not crazy enough to realize that they can't rule surface so...why do not let them and get all the benefits, like trades and goods? ) The point would be how to develop such a war in a campaign.


@Wooly Rupert: I agree with you, but in Faiths of Faerun is said that Loviatar takes power even from deliberate emotional pain, like breaking someone heart. It's still a wide range of possibilities.
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  09:04:07  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha

@Wooly Rupert: I agree with you, but in Faiths of Faerun is said that Loviatar takes power even from deliberate emotional pain, like breaking someone heart. It's still a wide range of possibilities.


I think the key word here is deliberate. Getting into a relationship for the purpose of eventually breaking someone's heart is very different to having your heart broken as a side effect of a relationship not working. I agree with Wooly on this one.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Qilintha
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23 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  09:36:08  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't know about Melvaunt but Forgotten Wiki says that after the death of Iyachtu Xvim the cult of Loviatar in that town decreased significantly.

I agree with you KanzenAU, as I agreed with Wooly earlier. But we can agree that as long as the pain is deliberate she gain powers from it. That's still huge. Slavery, torture are very common in the Realms. And from her Dogma the first part doesn't fully rule out the Pain coming from battles as well.

"The world is filled with pain and torment, and the best that one can do is to suffer those blows that cannot be avoided and deal as much pain back to those who offend."

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14041 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  19:16:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That makes me think Xvim and Loviatar had some sort of BDSM thing going on.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Qilintha
Seeker

23 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2017 :  22:47:47  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a disturbing image
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

134 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  09:05:49  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha

That's a disturbing image



I'm sure Rupert would love it, since it ties nicely into his "Bane is Xvim" theory

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.

Edited by - Misereor on 30 May 2017 09:06:09
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14041 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  23:58:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not directly related, and some folks may even argue over the 'canoness' of the source (its technically 'core', even though its most-definitely an FR reference).

InThe Complete book of Necromancers:
Loviatar goes to Cyric's Realm (presumably immediately following the ToT, so soon after his 'elevation' to godhood) and demands-back the 'soul of her sister'. Now, the only person that could possibly be is Kipputytto (I believe there was a 3rd 'sister', but thats RW finnish myth, and she was never mentioned in FR lore). While the whole story of Cyric being cowed by Loviatar is interesting unto itself, it also opens-up the possibility that Kipputytto is also 'alive and well' in 5th edition... which could have all sorts of interesting implications.

EDIT:
Seems there were FIVE sisters... and apparently D&D may have gotten Kipputytto and Loviatar mixed-up.
Loviatar is supposed to be 'disease', and Kipputytto was 'pain' (her name LITERALLY translates as 'Pain girl').

Plot Twist:
It was really Loviatar who died fighting Talona, and Kipputytto took up her sister's name in order to 'keep her memory alive' in mortal minds, until such a time when she could free her from the afterlife.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jun 2017 00:09:14
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Qilintha
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23 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  16:50:45  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That offers interesting ideas indeed.

I did some research myself and this is what I thought.

1. According to FInnish tradition Loviatar had nine sons and (maybe) one daugther. Loviatar having served Bhaal for a Looong time...it's very likely she knew of the Bhaalspawns...so it'd be interesting to introduce some Spawns of Loviatar.

2.Also in "Faiths and Avatars" there is some more intel about Loviatar. Interesting is the House of Spires near Amn in the Vale of Wailing Women ( western to Ishla in the Amn Region , although there are no further reference of such a town or location) where there is a particular pool that from what I could understand seems to be a Faerunian version of the Lazarus's Pit of Ra's Al Ghul.

"The House of Spires has risen to such prominence only in the last decade and so very rapidly because of one priestess: Queen of Torment Chalathra Nyndra, a dark-eyed, raven-haired, gaunt woman of truly vicious tastes and a legendary hunger to feel pain. It should be noted that Chalathra has found and modified an old draconic spell that acts to heal through immersion in a pool of a secret, enchanted mixture of tree saps and plant oils— and that creatures in contact with this substance automatically make all System Shock and Resurrection Survival rolls if faced with situations requiring them while largely immersed. Loviatans will hunt down—to the ends of Faerun and beyond—and slay anyone stealing any samples of this “Milk of the Maiden.”

I read in another topic your idea, Markustay about Kipputytto being sealed in those ruins

"The Yielding Tide: An ancient book called the Yielding Tide speaks of a forgotten city-state that may once have existed in the High Moors. Supposedly the powerful wizards of this city captured a minor goddess in order to steal her power. While the city and its wizards are long gone, those who know the legend (and they are few in number) believe the unnamed goddess is still buried under the city’s ruins. She might grant her rescuers their heart’s desire; or she might slay them in retributive anger."

INside that ruin there might be a part of Kipputytto.

So what if Loviatar, extremely clever and long-term planning according to Faiths and Avatars, is putting the pieces together? She is using the exiled baatezu to know more about seals and a way to break it without the divine essence going to the new Kipputytto ( Talona) , the kytons, a race more ancient than baatezu and far more mysterious, and devoted to torture and pain as she is to find a new host for that divine essence.

And the "Milk of the Maiden" , maybe with a special ritual, to fuse the things together and create this new being that would considered a SPawn Deity?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14041 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  20:10:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are at least two separate mentions of a 'fight between two goddesses' (and cities) in the Cormyrian Swamps booklet of EE. I think there may have been another, elsewhere - not sure. I assume this was some sort of 'final battle' between the rival goddesses, which sunk both cities and actually created the two swamps. Now here's the truly interesting part - there is something very important about that locale (I am still convinced the Tunlands themselves is a massive crater). There is an ancient power beneath there. In fact, back during the Days of the Crown wars, The Tunlands were called God's Theater! I am not sure of what connection that has with the two goddesses, though - maybe they were held-out there because of that power? (some sort of 'corruption' which a goddess of disease could feed of of, especially if her own power was waning?)

Also, dwarves in the area appear to have been 'lessened' somehow (more like Krynn's Gully Dwarves). More corruption?

And there is a completely unrelated tale of a 'hidden city of dwarves' in the area who are guarding something, and it may have something to do with psionics (corruption via The Far Realms? Or just aberrations?) I have a separate (but related) theory about that (and Cormyr's Crystal Grott{/i]).

My theory about how the 'battle between goddesses' ended is pretty neat, if I do say myself. Talona 'infected' Kipputytto with the worst disease a deity could get - [i]mortality
. She literally infected her with anti-divinity. Something so corrupting it was able to kill an immortal god. It would also be something all other gods would want kept under wraps (which could be why the rest of the Torillian pantheon(s) leave her alone). Perhaps it can only be used in that particular area, because of its strange history/nature.

I like your ideas about the 'Spawn of Loviatar/Kipputytto' - sounds like it would mesh well with FR lore. I hadn't known she also had a daughter. I wouldn't mind some suggestion about the other three sisters as well: For instance, my thoughts on Vammater is that she became Ilmatar, after a change of heart. Then when Ilmatar entered the Realms, she was absorbed by a male Power who took her name (or a VERY similar one). That would probably be Issek of the Jug from Newhon. Her original incarnation was a deity of suffering, so linking her to FR's Ilmater is a no-brainer (along with the name similarities, twice-over).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Qilintha
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23 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  22:26:18  Show Profile Send Qilintha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking about your theory...is there any description of Talona before the battle with Kipputytto? Because the Kalevala describes Loviatar as the ugliest daughter of Tuoni, described as a rotting body...Description that is very similar to the current Talona's. So maybe Talona didn't properly kill Kipputytto, maybe she was even losing the fight, but with a final twist reign she infected Kipputytto's consciousness. (It'd also connect lots with the psionic lore concering that area). A disease that infected Kipputytto's consciousness and memories with Talona's. ALso here is a crazy idea. Before the battle, Talona's holy symbol was split in three colours. After the battle the background was only purple. Those multiple personalities gave Talona the upper-edge in this battle of minds, although the only personality that survived was the purple one.

About the remaining sisters : Kivutar is almost identical to Kipputytto/Loviatar. GOddess of PAin and Suffering. Kalma is the Goddess of Death and Decay.Her favorite places to linger are graveyards and cemeteries; in fact, one Finnish word for graveyard is kalmisto, derived from her name. Some sources state that she moves on a vehicle of odors, much like a puff of smoke.[1]

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