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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2005 :  15:40:17  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
When a character dies in a D&D game their soul proceeds to the afterlife. Assuming a priest is high enough level, are priests able to perceive the soul of the deceased in the afterlife? And to know certain things about it as so-called 'mediums' claim to do in RL?

Do priests of most religions in the Forgotten Realms have the ability to divine the alignment of a deceased soul? And the deity that the soul had worshipped while living (or the deceased's faithlessness as the case may be)? Would the priest's god grant the priest the ability to discern whether the character was worthy of resurrection, in the deity's judgment?

Could a priest divine such information just from the corpse?

If it is possible to divine the alignment and faith of a deceased soul, will most priests in FR then be highly selective about who they would resurrect?

For example, would a priest of Helm (LN) be inclined to raise a deceased character who he divines to be of Evil alignment, who had in life worshipped a deity who was an enemy of Helm, and was an evildoer for most of that character's life?

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2005 :  16:11:45  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work"

This appears to be the only time the soul is contacted (Speak with dead only talks to the body not the soul) and if the soul is happy where it is it will refuse to return.

If the soul is unhappy where it ended up it will gladly return and almost certainly select another deity, perhaps that of the cleric that cast the spell.

Some clerics might be more concerned about the what the creature was in life and by using Speak with dead or other divination might decide not to raise them for that reason. Though in geneal as a payment and/or quest is expected they still might raise an evil creature for that payment consideration and a hope of conversion.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2005 :  15:50:05  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks. Question goes mostly to what in the core books and canon lore supports such a premise. Again, I'm conceiving it much as a 'medium' would theoretically approach the question of the basic character of the person, knowledge of the person's life, etc., and apply that information to considerations about whether the deity in question would approve of the individual being raised.

I guess my question really boils down to whether raising someone from the dead is something that basically any faith in the Forgotten Realms will do, regardless of what the deceased person was like, just as long as the fee is met.

I'm hoping that is not the case. But in the case where the deceased is a stranger to the cleric attempting to return him from the dead, unless the above is true then how is a cleric going to know who is being raised? The motivation to bring the person back would then only be money. It might be the hope of conversion, but if the service is commonly performed by all faiths for a fee, no questions asked, then there would be little motivation to convert.

It just seems to me that this is a spell that should not be used in a mundane, cavalier, or mercenary manner--rather that the spell would rarely be cast, and used only with great discretion. But perhaps in a world of great magics returning from the dead isn't regarded as miraculous (at least by those with extensive knowledge of arcane or divine magic).

I've found some pertinent information on in the Player's Handbook v.3.0 p. 153, 'Bringing Back the Dead'. There it states that upon death the deceased's soul departs the physical body and Material Plane and astrally travels to the outer plane where the character's deity resides. If the character was faithless he goes to the outer plane that most closely matches his alignment.

A soul cannot be returned to its body in the Material Plane against its wishes. When resurrection is attempted, the soul of the deceased will know the name, alignment, and patron deity of the cleric attempting to return him to the Material Plane. The soul of the deceased may refuse, accordingly. (This assumes that the soul can still remember his or her former existence on the Material Plane, see below.)

The soul's fate after death is also discussed in Manual of the Planes p. 89. It says there that upon death the soul of the deceased drifts toward the outer plane that matches their nature most closely, and the punishments or rewards for their conduct in life that there awaits them. For example, LG souls go to Celestia, CE souls end up in the Abyss. Souls in the outer plane forget their former incarnations (although it is not specified how long this eventually permanent memory loss typically takes). Several things can then happen (at the DM's discretion, apparently):

Judgment
The soul either remains in the afterlife or is reincarnated.

Upon death the soul goes to the outer plane that most closely matched his nature and is judged by that plane's deity. If found worthy the character joins the essence of the plane itself, whereupon he may be transformed into a servant of the deity, or passes onto a new level of reality that may be a mystery even to the deity. Such characters cannot be resurrected.

If the character fails the deity's judgment, he is either retained on the outer plane that matched his nature (in which case he is called a 'petitioner'), or returned to the Material Plane for reincarnation.

If the character is either to remain on his deity's outer plane or to be reincarnated according to the judgment of that particular deity, one would think that this process typically may not be disturbed by the priest of the deity in question----and especially not by a cleric of another faith. Also, the soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

So especially if the cosmology being used employs a deity's judgment as described above, one would think it is essential that the cleric have some means of ascertaining various conditions before attempting to bring a deceased soul back to the living.

Joining
Soul of the deceased joins with its deity of the plane it went to upon death. If resurrected the soul abruptly splits off from that divine union, and there is no memory of the afterlife. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

Fusion
The soul of the deceased merges with the outer plane itself, and becomes part of its morphic landscape. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

Unknown
No one knows what happens after death, perhaps not even the deities themselves (or if they do know they don't tell mortals). Death remains a great mystery. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.




Edited by - Lemernis on 17 Jul 2005 18:55:43
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2005 :  19:13:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis



I guess my question really boils down to whether raising someone from the dead is something that basically any faith in the Forgotten Realms will do, regardless of what the deceased person was like, just as long as the fee is met.


Well in core D&D a Cleric certainly can refuse to raise or cast another spell for someone not of the faith. I am not aware of any FR material that indicates pay and you will recieve requires Clerics in FR to cast a spell for anyone just because payment was in hand.. Nor would I expect such a rule to exist.
Some might be more willing then others to raise for a fee anyone, others indeed certainly be concerned about what the person was and what the person might become.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2005 :  23:15:46  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is some more canon material relevant to this subject:

First, when party members are attempting to have a fallen comrade brought back from the dead, the deceased character will trypically be taken to the local mortuary, or House of Death. The following is from Defenders of the Faith pp. 40-41:

The House of Death

quote:
Most towns and cities over 1,000 people have a House of Death. Families bring their dead to this building for funeral preparations. Legal authorities bring the bodies to the house for investigation into the cause of death. The staff at the House of Death treats the deceased with respect, and the living with compassion...

... Morticians by day, the staff members fight a never-ending holy war against the undead. By providing their essential public service, the staff members gain evidence of vampire attacks and ghoul infestations from victims carried across the threshhold. Their divinely compassionate front lets them subtly gather information on when and where deaths occur so that they may investigate after night falls. They operate in secret to protect their city from panic and riots, and to prevent the innocent from mistaken assault.


All classes and races are welcome to become staff members of the House of Death, and may have varying motivations for doing so.

Since the staff of the House of Death are charged with the responsibility of gathering information about the cause of death in order to prevent undead infestations, it would probably make sense for them to play a role in determining the advisability of whether a person should be brought back from the dead. When someone seeks to have a person brought back to the living from the realms of the dead, wouldn't the local priests naturally seek the counsel of the House of Death staff?

***

Defenders of the Faith (p. 6, 17-18, 56) offers some information as to how a cleric might gather information about the deceased soul.

Divination
"Good deities usually assign minor celestials to answer high level divination spells--divination and commune, for example. Using these spells is one way for [a cleric] to contact the servants of [the cleric's] deity...

Even without access to powerful divination magic, [a character] may be able to call upon the powers for wisdom and information...If the DM decides [the] adventure is best served by the party receiving some divine insight... a celestial messenger may appear in a dream or assume the form of a mortal."

Divine Intervention
"In a fantasy campaign in which pantheons of deities have walked the earth and have taken a concrete interest in mortal affairs, player character clerics... may assume that the deities they serve should lend an ear when they are in need. If characters praying for help are fairly high level and faithful to the tenets of their alignment and religion, there is at least a small chance that the deities hear their prayers and respond in some way...

Even if intervention is appropriate, it never involves the appearance of an actual divine being. Instead, the deity petitioned might send a celestial or fiendish servant... who remains disguised or invisible... typically blessed with very high Intelligence scores and can quickly assess a situation to provide the assistance the characters need...

Divine mesengers are not always...direct... [and] may choose to conceal themselves in mortal disguise... concealed behind an alter self spell."

Divine Oracle (Prestige Class)
"Wherever the deities are known to speak to mortals, some mortals hear their voice with a unique clarity and gain insight into the past, present, and future by virtue of their unusual status... [A]ll divine oracles share a particular devotion to the Divination school of magic, having mastered all available means to catch glimpses of the future.

NPC divine oracles often live in out-of-the-way places, though usually close enough to civilization that people with pressing questions about the future can seek them out to have their questions ansered. They frequently inhabit sacred shrines or ancient temples and rarely take an active part in world affairs.

...[S]ome oracles are driven mad by the visions they see... [and] [s]ome people doubt their words; indeed some divine oracles are cursed never to be believed."

***

Spells by which a cleric might determine whether a soul should be brought back from the dead (from d20 SRD v3.0):

Speak with Dead
Necromancy [Language-Dependent]
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 10 ft.
Target: One dead creature
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

The character grants the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that the character puts to it. The character may ask up to one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from the character's, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.

If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. The character can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all.

This spell does not let the character actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information. Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned.

Any corpse that has been turned into an undead creature can’t be spoken to with speak with dead.

Augury
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: Instantaneous

An augury can tell the character whether a particular action will bring good or bad results for the character in the immediate future.

The base chance for receiving a meaningful reply is 70% + 1% per caster level; the DM makes the roll secretly. The DM may determine that the question is so straightforward that a successful result is automatic, or so vague as to have no chance of success. If the augury succeeds, the character gets one of four results:

"Weal" (if the action will probably bring good results).
"Woe" (for bad results).
"Weal and woe" (for both).
"Nothing" (for actions that don't have especially good or bad results).

If the spell fails, the character gets the "nothing" result. A cleric who gets the "nothing" result has no way to tell whether it resulted from a failed or successful augury.

The augury can see into the future only about half an hour, so anything that might happen after that does not affect the augury. Thus, it might miss the long-term consequences of the contemplated action. All auguries cast by the same person about the same topic use the same dice result as the first augury.

Focus: Worth at least 25 gp value.

Divination
Divination
Level: Clr 4, Knowledge 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: Instantaneous

This divination spell can provide the character with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within 1 week. The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen.

In all cases, the DM controls what information the character receives. Note that if the character's party doesn’t act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful.

The base chance for a correct divination is 70% + 1% per caster level. The DM adjusts the chance if unusual circumstances require it (if, for example, unusual precautions against divination spells have been taken). If the dice roll fails, the character knows the spell failed, unless specific magic yielding false information is at work.

Multiple divinations about the same topic by the same caster use the same dice result as the first divination and yield the same answer each time.

Material Component: Worth at least 25 gp.

Commune
Divination
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: 1 round/level

The character can contact the character's deity—or agents thereof—and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no. (A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity.) The character is allowed one such question per caster level. The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. "Unclear" is a legitimate answer. In cases where a one-word answer would be misleading or contrary to the deity’s interests, the DM should give a short phrase (five words or less) as an answer instead. The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes. If the character doesn't focus on the conversation, discusses the answers at length with other parties, or leaves to undertake another task, the spell ends.

XP Cost: 100 XP

Edited by - Lemernis on 17 Jul 2005 23:18:42
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2020 :  21:09:53  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Lemernis, et alia,

This is an absolutely fantastic post! I mean, this drives right at the ethos/ethics of the gods and their clergy making day to day decisions!

I think I can say in the end that nothing has ever been produced that actually tackles these deeply profound and difficult questions. There is always the trope of a priest doing his "duty", or in very silly ways getting some token "thing" in order to be the mobile hospital. However, it completely misses the point that not only are these actual people casting these magics and making decisions about whether they do or not, but they are basing their decisions on the ethos of the their gods and how their own ethical system does or does not work with that ethos. I mean, it's easy to say that the priest will just go along with and do that thing that the god ordains, but we all know that foibles are what make characters more real.

I think whether a priest would do so or not would depend on the faith. I am certain some people at the 'Keep would argue with the banal system of alignment, which frankly is so intellectually bereft that a desert would be embarrassed at how naked it is...

I could completely imagine a cleric steeped in the faith of Waukeen would see that the value of raising someone from the dead would be predicated on the compensation to be had.

On the other hand, I could see a cleric of Kelemvor being extremely upset at the notion of bringing someone back from the dead, for it alters the natural cycle, unless there was some amazing reason for doing so.

If you are still active on the site, or anyone else that finds this interesting, I'd love to discuss this further with you! :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis

Thanks. Question goes mostly to what in the core books and canon lore supports such a premise. Again, I'm conceiving it much as a 'medium' would theoretically approach the question of the basic character of the person, knowledge of the person's life, etc., and apply that information to considerations about whether the deity in question would approve of the individual being raised.

I guess my question really boils down to whether raising someone from the dead is something that basically any faith in the Forgotten Realms will do, regardless of what the deceased person was like, just as long as the fee is met.

I'm hoping that is not the case. But in the case where the deceased is a stranger to the cleric attempting to return him from the dead, unless the above is true then how is a cleric going to know who is being raised? The motivation to bring the person back would then only be money. It might be the hope of conversion, but if the service is commonly performed by all faiths for a fee, no questions asked, then there would be little motivation to convert.

It just seems to me that this is a spell that should not be used in a mundane, cavalier, or mercenary manner--rather that the spell would rarely be cast, and used only with great discretion. But perhaps in a world of great magics returning from the dead isn't regarded as miraculous (at least by those with extensive knowledge of arcane or divine magic).

I've found some pertinent information on in the Player's Handbook v.3.0 p. 153, 'Bringing Back the Dead'. There it states that upon death the deceased's soul departs the physical body and Material Plane and astrally travels to the outer plane where the character's deity resides. If the character was faithless he goes to the outer plane that most closely matches his alignment.

A soul cannot be returned to its body in the Material Plane against its wishes. When resurrection is attempted, the soul of the deceased will know the name, alignment, and patron deity of the cleric attempting to return him to the Material Plane. The soul of the deceased may refuse, accordingly. (This assumes that the soul can still remember his or her former existence on the Material Plane, see below.)

The soul's fate after death is also discussed in Manual of the Planes p. 89. It says there that upon death the soul of the deceased drifts toward the outer plane that matches their nature most closely, and the punishments or rewards for their conduct in life that there awaits them. For example, LG souls go to Celestia, CE souls end up in the Abyss. Souls in the outer plane forget their former incarnations (although it is not specified how long this eventually permanent memory loss typically takes). Several things can then happen (at the DM's discretion, apparently):

Judgment
The soul either remains in the afterlife or is reincarnated.

Upon death the soul goes to the outer plane that most closely matched his nature and is judged by that plane's deity. If found worthy the character joins the essence of the plane itself, whereupon he may be transformed into a servant of the deity, or passes onto a new level of reality that may be a mystery even to the deity. Such characters cannot be resurrected.

If the character fails the deity's judgment, he is either retained on the outer plane that matched his nature (in which case he is called a 'petitioner'), or returned to the Material Plane for reincarnation.

If the character is either to remain on his deity's outer plane or to be reincarnated according to the judgment of that particular deity, one would think that this process typically may not be disturbed by the priest of the deity in question----and especially not by a cleric of another faith. Also, the soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

So especially if the cosmology being used employs a deity's judgment as described above, one would think it is essential that the cleric have some means of ascertaining various conditions before attempting to bring a deceased soul back to the living.

Joining
Soul of the deceased joins with its deity of the plane it went to upon death. If resurrected the soul abruptly splits off from that divine union, and there is no memory of the afterlife. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

Fusion
The soul of the deceased merges with the outer plane itself, and becomes part of its morphic landscape. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.

Unknown
No one knows what happens after death, perhaps not even the deities themselves (or if they do know they don't tell mortals). Death remains a great mystery. The soul must still both remember his former existence and desire to return to it in order to be resurrected.






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