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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2023 : 03:06:34
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I seem to remember reading Ed's answer to this a long time ago is that the Realms was at an early Renaissance tech level (15th-16th century). Can anyone verify this?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2023 : 03:27:25
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D&D was several editions back "a long time ago".
They've advanced the in-game calendar by decades and centuries, so when you are depends where you get on and off the Wizbro canon bus.
The general rule of thumb is that the Realms circa 1E/2E (DR1357-ish) was roughly equivalent to (and roughly modelled from) mid-/late-Medieval Europe. Stuff like custom-made full plate armor or fancy hand-crossbow or high-powered siege engine would be near the high end of technology obtainable in places like Waterdeep or Cormyr. While many examples of superior engineering and technology from dwarven citadels, gnomish steam-powered inventions, or lost and forgotten ancient civilizations also exist. Magic is basically superior to technology for solving difficult problems so magical research is comparatively advanced while technological research is somewhat stalled. Smokepowder and a primitive selection of smokepowder weaponry are cutting edge.
The Realms circa 4E (DR1480something-ish) is more early-/mid-Renaissance in tone. Steam-powered gizmos (and a somewhat steampunk-flavoured setting) and mechanical clocks and literacy and printing presses are more commonplace. Rogues with fancy duelling pistols, warforged (mechanical people), steam-powered mechanical walkers and all manner of DaVinci-styled machinery exists. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2023 : 10:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Realms circa 4E (DR1480something-ish) is more early-/mid-Renaissance in tone. Steam-powered gizmos (and a somewhat steampunk-flavoured setting) and mechanical clocks and literacy and printing presses are more commonplace. Rogues with fancy duelling pistols, warforged (mechanical people), steam-powered mechanical walkers and all manner of DaVinci-styled machinery exists.
While I agree with Ayrik that technology probably advanced a bit during the century gap between the 1380's and 1480's DR timline, there was a LOT of turmoil during that time that could have stifled technological growth, especially with the "disappearance" of tech-savvy nations like Lantan. Could they have still made a printing press? Absolutely! However, I'll add that nothing in the rules or setting books of the 4E-era Forgotten Realms ever mentions steam-powered machines or gunn-powder weapons. In fact, I think it's the only edition that there's not a section in the DMG for "futuristic weapons/settings" options. Warforged are still a very "only Eberron" thing as far as Canon goes. There was one article written in a Dragon Magazine (#410) called Bazaar of the Bizarre: Thingamajigs from the Barrier Peaks as a fun nod to the old AD&D adventure which detailed futuristic weapons, but that's as far as the system ever went (shame, really).
As you get into late 15th century Realms (1485-1490 DR), or the 5th Edition timeline, the setting still has a very medieval, pre-renaissance feel, in terms of technology. The DMG does have options for gunn-powder/smokepowder weapons and there's a few player's options that faciliate that: A feat, a few archtypes for classes, etc. But I'd note that these were created with specific settings in mind (Legends of Runeterra: Dark Tides on Bildgewater and Exandria the setting for Vox Machina), so whether or not they're also prevalent in the Realms hasn't been established. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2023 : 21:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Realms circa 4E (DR1480something-ish) is more early-/mid-Renaissance in tone. Steam-powered gizmos (and a somewhat steampunk-flavoured setting) and mechanical clocks and literacy and printing presses are more commonplace. Rogues with fancy duelling pistols, warforged (mechanical people), steam-powered mechanical walkers and all manner of DaVinci-styled machinery exists.
While I agree with Ayrik that technology probably advanced a bit during the century gap between the 1380's and 1480's DR timline, there was a LOT of turmoil during that time that could have stifled technological growth, especially with the "disappearance" of tech-savvy nations like Lantan. Could they have still made a printing press? Absolutely! However, I'll add that nothing in the rules or setting books of the 4E-era Forgotten Realms ever mentions steam-powered machines or gunn-powder weapons. In fact, I think it's the only edition that there's not a section in the DMG for "futuristic weapons/settings" options. Warforged are still a very "only Eberron" thing as far as Canon goes. There was one article written in a Dragon Magazine (#410) called Bazaar of the Bizarre: Thingamajigs from the Barrier Peaks as a fun nod to the old AD&D adventure which detailed futuristic weapons, but that's as far as the system ever went (shame, really).
As you get into late 15th century Realms (1485-1490 DR), or the 5th Edition timeline, the setting still has a very medieval, pre-renaissance feel, in terms of technology. The DMG does have options for gunn-powder/smokepowder weapons and there's a few player's options that faciliate that: A feat, a few archtypes for classes, etc. But I'd note that these were created with specific settings in mind (Legends of Runeterra: Dark Tides on Bildgewater and Exandria the setting for Vox Machina), so whether or not they're also prevalent in the Realms hasn't been established.
I think Lantan brought alot of tech with them when they returned, and same with the Mulhorandi Gods. Plus some tech might be coming from other Planes like the 9 Hells and Mechanus, along with stuff from increasing visits by Spelljammers and Mindflayer tech. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2023 : 23:22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
[quote]Originally posted by Ayrik
Warforged are still a very "only Eberron" thing as far as Canon goes.
Not to contradict you, but nope, warforged weren't an Eberron-only thing in 4e. Dragon 364 adapted them to core as well. But, you're right that no canon Realmslore said they were a thing in the post-Spellplague Realms. There was an article in Dragon 371 with ideas to justify using warforged and other Eberron races in FR, but it was that: ideas for players and DMs to justify those races, not anything canonical or part of a storyline. I guess that this idea that "4e forced warforged on the Realms!" was just another misconception of the time, just like "4e is imposing the Raven Queen in the FR!" stuff. That happened in 5e, ironically, because people added those things to the FR on their own (believing 4e was forcing them to do so) that they decided it to make it canon.
As for Realmslore on technology, Dragon #403 has this article called "Gond's Way: Artificers of the Realms", that says that technology in the Realms was stalled because all the chaos following the Spellplague, but since them some artificers have rediscovered the secrets of old Lantan. Its companion article in Dungeon #194, "The Crafthouse of Inspiration" has some mechanical constructs, but no warforged. It also says that the secrets of smokepowder were lost but the gondites of the East Rift managed to rediscover them.
Which means that, canonically, the FR of the late 1400s were somehow on the same technological level of the late 1300s. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2024 : 02:52:11
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There is a Realms after the 1350s?
Astounding news!
EDIT: I recall reading also that the Realms were early Ren. in technology...but to me that was not an everywhere thing, and instead such higher levels of tech were really only in the remotest areas such as Lantan and only oddities in the Heartlands. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 01 Jan 2024 02:53:52 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2024 : 06:38:40
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| The moment a wizard creates a shield guardian, renaissance levels of technology goes out of the window. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
174 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2024 : 15:15:18
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Ed's take was that the Realms was a mishmash, with some areas having Renaissance or even later/steampunkish levels of technology (Lantan, OG Mulhorand before TSR turned it into Fantasy Egypt, with the steampunk tech retconned as a forbidden area of research) but a lot of areas being medieval-ish.
The post-Spellplague Realms are a different beast. Magitek/steampunk is much more prevalent (i.e. the steampunk robot police force in Baldur's Gate III), although guns are still relatively limited (possibly to keep FR distinct from Eberron and Critical Role), and interactions between magic and building technology seem to be more common (Neverwinter being rebuilt in just a few years and looking considerably more impressive in Honor Among Thieves). It now feels like more of the Realms is starting to look like Halruaa or Nimbral, or maybe even Netheril-without-the-flying-cities, then it used to.
Sir Terry Pratchett - whom I was surprised to learn was friends or at least acquaintances with Ed and even mooted doing some writing work in the Realms (a Waterdeep adventure with a bunch of new Watch recruits who would be modelled on his Ankh-Morpork City Watch, possibly for charity) - traced a similar advancement with Ankh-Morpork, which in the very first Discworld book is a medieval fantasy city, maybe 14th Century at the latest, but by the forty-first and final book, it now has the telegraph, printing press, modern(ish) banking, actual steam trains, a post office and even an incredibly odd Difference Engine-style AI computer system. The difference is that the Realms has had a lot more time (almost 150 years from the start of 1E to the end of 5E) and several major global events to explain that a bit better. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2024 : 14:57:06
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I could probably find a better topic to post this under, but this KIND OF fits since we're talking about magitech stuff.
Throwing out a quick idea.... obviously, a decanter of endless water is amazing in its uses if one puts their mind to it... but something just occurred to me based on something I just saw where Ed was talking to someone about shapeshifters killing folks on the privy... quote below... that puts the "s shaped" idea of our toilets as being invented in 1339 DR
Feb 1, 2024
@OfficialAPoD
Makes me wonder how many Lord Bladderblats were assassinated whilst in the Privy by shapeshifted assASSins.
Care to comment, @TheEdVerse?
#RealmsLore
@TheEdVerse
It's something hushed up in the Realms, so word won't get around and encourage hirings of shapeshifting slayers.
Dozens before 1339 DR, when the trap (water-filled letter-S-on-its-back, to quell odors) was invented, and the "long drop" you see here got superceded.
Traps are found in grand buildings across the Realms in the 1400s, emptied (by a hapless servant in a little chamber below the garderobe) via removal of a plug at an S "bottom," into a carry-urn.
The trap is then refilled with fresh scented water through the seat.
The Seat of Flushing
This magical device in many ways resembles a decanter of endless water in its function, but functionally it resembles a ceramic ring that acts as a very short term portal that can ONLY allow water through it. This ring is linked to a similar ring that is typically placed at the bottom of a rain barrel that must be within a thousand feet of its peer. When a key word is used, a portal is established for the short period of 5 seconds, allowing up to two gallons of water to come through the portal. To note, due to only water being allowed through, this means that even a rain barrel filled with filthy water or even salty water will only allow the clean water components through the portal. This can result in the "other side" in the rain barrel/lake/fountain to start to get filled with the mud, salt, and other detriment and can end up blocking the portal opening. As a result this must be periodical cleaned so that the portal can continue functioning.
Most common rain barrels for this purpose hold between 50 to 90 gallons of water, but there are reports of some of these rain barrels also being enhanced to allow overflow to drain into temporary or permanent extradimensional spaces. However, this is typically only a plan for the extremely rich, and most simply buy multiple rain barrels and assign servants to move the "other side" from one barrel to another daily so that there is always a relatively full barrel for privy use. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Feb 2024 15:05:10 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2024 : 17:58:15
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I have always played it as a mishmash. Kind of like traveller does. Ship Technology is Age of Sail for me in the richest places but the Northman of the Trackless sea can match them with Drakkars.
Lantan is the only place to use firearms.
I use an old rule from the AD&D Manual of planes: There are Tech and Magic levels 0-10. Forgotten Realms is a High Magic world with Lpw technology, so FIrearms will never work in it, and most technology has to be mechanical based. Combustion of course happens, but the physics of the world just doesn't let sentients of sophonts control it. Its how I justify age of sail with Low renaissance.
But FR is not Global. There is a max tech level, but that would only be available in Waterdeep, Calimport, Neverwinter, maybe Kara Tur. If you find it in another city it will be imported. Individuals can build it, but the city doesn't have enough resources to complete it.
Magic is high and available to those that can harness the knowledge, but again since the tech level is low-medium the technological advances to industrialize it have not been made.
Our technological development was dependent on factors unique to our world due to necessity and need. I do not view the FR as having those same needs.
Mithral and Adamantine are magic metals coming from the ground. Coal is not readily available though because well in the 30K years the realms has been around... no time for the fossil fuels to form.
That is how I logic it out. ofcourse there are many holes in it like always happens when you try to apply scientific principles to fantasy worlds. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 02 Feb 2024 18:00:57 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2024 : 18:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
In the DnD movie Honor Among Thieves, mass printing of flyers and a hot air balloon were featured expressions of technology.
With the Isle of Lantan returned in the 5e era, one might speculate that the Lantanese might be full-on Steampunk or even more advanced.
The printing press is canon. There was an anthology book where the monk from Nomads I think talked to a man that had the printing press.
Printing press is definitely a thing. I can't remember the short story precisely though. It was from the early 90's. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2024 : 20:05:56
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Honor Among Thieves takes place somewhen around the late 1490s DR.
Which places it somewhen in the late-4E or the whenever-5E timeline. Which I believe is essentially (in the civilized areas) roughly on par with Renaissance-era technology.
The film also had that arena/maze made of moving blocks. Was that a magical or a mechanical thing? Those blocks were quite large and must've been somewhat heavy (because they remained unmoved when characters smashed body weights against them). Maybe they were magically levitated. Maybe there was a large room full of gears and tracks and pulleys. No power source was evident.
But does it matter if it's machine or magic? It is a functioning thing. We would've built it with machines because we lack magic. They may have built it with magic because it makes things so much easier. The technology is still the technology, the thing exists and it functions regardless of its inner workings.
Maybe that hot-air balloon was also levitated by magic. We only assume it works the same way a hot-air balloon works here because we've never seen one operate on magical principles. Who would build a hot-air balloon in a world where you can levitate a basket full of people?
Seems like a renaissance-equivalent technology regardless of how the technology works. Even if the technology is fully or partly comprised of magical components. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
174 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2024 : 22:48:36
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| I don't believe HAT is dated. 1496 is the previously-established, "latest" date provided in any 5E product, but I've seen speculation that HAT might be later, even in the early 1500s, because Neverwinter needed some seriously hardcore reconstruction to get to its state in HAT versus its state in the last adventures we see before that (when it was still recovering from its 3E-4E tribulations and even partially still in ruins). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2024 : 23:46:54
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| Never mind the SIZE of Neverwinter in HAT! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2024 : 00:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Never mind the SIZE of Neverwinter in HAT!
Urban sprawl. Neverwinter proper - historic Neverwinter aka the "Winterslum" - is just a small municipal region within the Greater Neverwinter Metropolitan Regional District. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1287 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2024 : 14:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Honor Among Thieves takes place somewhen around the late 1490s DR.
Which places it somewhen in the late-4E or the whenever-5E timeline. Which I believe is essentially (in the civilized areas) roughly on par with Renaissance-era technology.
The film also had that arena/maze made of moving blocks. Was that a magical or a mechanical thing? Those blocks were quite large and must've been somewhat heavy (because they remained unmoved when characters smashed body weights against them). Maybe they were magically levitated. Maybe there was a large room full of gears and tracks and pulleys. No power source was evident.
But does it matter if it's machine or magic? It is a functioning thing. We would've built it with machines because we lack magic. They may have built it with magic because it makes things so much easier. The technology is still the technology, the thing exists and it functions regardless of its inner workings.
Maybe that hot-air balloon was also levitated by magic. We only assume it works the same way a hot-air balloon works here because we've never seen one operate on magical principles. Who would build a hot-air balloon in a world where you can levitate a basket full of people?
Seems like a renaissance-equivalent technology regardless of how the technology works. Even if the technology is fully or partly comprised of magical components.
To note as well with a hot air doubloon... we have multiple separate representations of Halruaan Skyships in artwork. We have the traditional where it looks like a sailing ship with some turtle shells on the hull, and we also have artwork resembling a balloon. That being said, as you point out... we don't know HOW that balloon functions (i.e. is there an entrapped elemental... are they heating air magically... is it simply a levitation effect with some wind control spells contained in a balloon... is there a fire near the "exit" of the balloon to prevent an air creature from exiting the balloon space).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 04:18:13
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| Hot air balloons were developed more recently in the real world, but it's really not any kind of technological leap -- the technology was there for centuries; it's just that no one thought "Hey, what if I make a really big bag and fill it with hot air?" until the Montgolfier brothers did it. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 07:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Hey, what if I make a really big bag and fill it with hot air?"
Electing the first politician? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 14:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hot air balloons were developed more recently in the real world, but it's really not any kind of technological leap -- the technology was there for centuries; it's just that no one thought "Hey, what if I make a really big bag and fill it with hot air?" until the Montgolfier brothers did it.
I'd argue a little bit that it kind of is... more just that in OUR methodology you have to have something that can be relatively small and then produce massive, sustained heat at that source. That being said, I won't jump off a cliff arguing that case.
That being said... with REALMS "technology"/"magitech"... this would be easy as hell. Making a stone that produces massive heat is something the Mulhorandi have had for a long time (i.e. stone of everburning), and in function would be similar to uranium in a nuclear reactor... which could definitely be combined with a decanter of endless water. Just having some magic item that could periodically do a burning hands type effect wouldn't be hard, or just some effect that creates the equivalent of a torch to give off heat. There are so many things in our world that would be easier to create if low grade magic replaced the power sources... but the difference being that with technology in general these things can be mass produced quicker/easier. So, the idea that someone might be able to create a train, a horseless wagon, a flying vehicle would definitely be introduced .... it just might not be as reproducible. Now, throw in the concept of 5e magic with its rituals (i.e. low level magic users being able to cast low powered spell effects repeatedly), and I very much wonder that we don't see something akin to artificers more commonly in the modern realms (that being said, doing so very much makes the realms resemble Eberron more and more).
One thing that talking about this does bring to mind though... in our world, blacksmiths were all making their own forge fires locally and working around them, etc.... But I could definitely see examples of smiths travelling instead to a site where a massive magical heat source is shared by multiple smiths instead. In this environment, merchants might BRING raw materials to this kind of site to sell so that smiths don't have to transport it from their homes. This would also encourage smiths to be able to work together to make things. In short, this very much makes the concepts of dwarven smithing communities make a LOT more sense. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Feb 2024 14:11:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 17:00:39
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Technology tends to be attached to history.
We impose limits on technologies which have historically been used in reckless, damaging, monstrous ways. That's why we don't allow uncontrolled human medical experimentation, uncontrolled genetic engineering of humans or other species, nuclear weapon tests near populated areas, etc. We learned from mistakes.
Perhaps Mulhorandi hotstones were never applies towards hot air balloons - perhaps nobody dared to think about developing flying devices at all - because of a terrible history with Netherese flying enclaves. Everybody remembers being subjugated, oppressed, tyrannized by lofty and arrogant wizards commanding flying mountain castles. Nobody wants to make the same mistakes those wizards did, or to be associated with those wizards (and their deeds) by inventing ways to emulate them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2024 : 19:16:38
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It appears that hot air balloons date to about 210 AD in China, unmanned for certain , there being some speculation or hints of manned flight before 18th century by hundreds of years/ The first claimed flight in Europe appears to be "was by the Brazilian-Portuguese priest Bartolomeu de Gusmão. On 8 August 1709," source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ballooning
The dates for manned flight appear to occur after the end of the Renaissance (In the age of enlightenment instead). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1287 Posts |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2024 : 17:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hot air balloons were developed more recently in the real world, but it's really not any kind of technological leap -- the technology was there for centuries; it's just that no one thought "Hey, what if I make a really big bag and fill it with hot air?" until the Montgolfier brothers did it.
I know the Incans did it. A big part of lost ancient or newly encountered civilizations gives good opportunity for an appropriate level of tech mixing. I like it better that it was always a certain civilization’s thing to develop a particular monument or technology. |
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Realms technology level Earth analog
