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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 01:16:10
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Actually, the Maztican gods are the real Aztec/Mayan gods but with different names... just to point that out.
There is a project named "Returned Maztica" that also wants to bring Maztica to modern tastes, without the problematic stuff. I really like it (even if I don't like the concept of Maztica itself), because the guy that did it researched actual history for this project. He also embraced the Spellplague and the concept of Abeir to apply changes.
It's not Seethyr's one, but I guess it's worth mention it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jan 2022 01:22:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 20:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Actually, the Maztican gods are the real Aztec/Mayan gods but with different names... just to point that out.
There is a project named "Returned Maztica" that also wants to bring Maztica to modern tastes, without the problematic stuff. I really like it (even if I don't like the concept of Maztica itself), because the guy that did it researched actual history for this project. He also embraced the Spellplague and the concept of Abeir to apply changes.
It's not Seethyr's one, but I guess it's worth mention it.
Where can it be found? I will say, of the stuff Seethyr's done, I more liked his Anchorome and Lopango stuff. He very much did a good job on Maztica I felt too, but everything can use a twist.
Also, the one thing we had a difference on was the idea that while they were in Abeir "the gods were silent", whereas I went with the idea of "some of the gods that disappeared were there in a lesser ToT style avatar form, sharing a body with a mortal, until they gained enough divine power to ascend to a newer form". That more effects how those cultures would be now that they've returned (for instance, if the gods had been silent for a hundred years, why would worship have continued past a generation or two). I understand why he did it the way he did, because he was trying to stay in line with the lore at the time. I like working between the lines of what we're told the sages know, and thinking about "well, how would they know past the point that they had visited the world, and what little they would know would only be from a small section that we've been presented that actually returned". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 20:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Glad I'm not the only one. I really don't enjoy the people who won't throw their hat in the ring and design, but snipe away at other people's work.
I definitely concur with this. And I think Seethyr's done a great job with Anchorome, Maztica and Lopango.
I am kinda mixed, on the one hand I like the idea of representation of Native Americans and East Asians. And there are ideas I like in Maztica and Kara-Tur, but overall they feel too much like the RW continents they are based, rather than being part of a fantasy world, let alone the Forgotten Realms.
I think Maztica, despite it's terrible history with Cordell/Cortez and the church of Helm, is probably more salvageable than Kara-Tur, since to my knowledge, at least the Maztican gods are original deities, rather than a copy-paste of specific Aztec/Mayan gods. It's just, it needs more original elements there that isn't a simple imitation of Mesoamerican historical cultures. Also some more demihuman cultures around would help give it a more fantastical and mythical feel imo.
Another thing they could do as well is make the Mazticans able to craft iron-based weapons as well, to help differentiate it from your typical Native American analogue setting, where they are at a technological disadvantage to the newly arrived outlanders. They could have begun to learn this from Amnian colonists that were trapped there during the Spellplague.
Also a smart thing would be if some of the Faerunian gods have existed here, perhaps with different aspects or aliases that are native to the continent, just to help bridge more proper connections with the world of FR. Mystra, Selune and Shar, being such ancient and prominent gods would seem sensible to have had a presence here predating the contact with Faerunians.
Regarding some of this, one thing we were working on was the idea that some cultures had developed a lot of experience with glassteel or similar things like the material that thri-kreen weaponry is made of a crystalline material that they make with their spittle. Then there was the Maztican plumastone, which was an exceptionally hard obsidian. Think also of the Tsurani with their lacquered wood weaponry and armor in the riftwar saga by Raymond E. Feist. After all, who says that faerunian metallurgy is necessarily superior to ceramic style weaponry.It may be in OUR world, but this is a different world.
On the idea of mixing in faerunian gods, I was doing that in Anchorome, kind of through the metahel pantheon. There's a lot of hints that those deities may be variants of Faerun's gods. At the same time, there's hints that the pantheon may be a post-Ragnarok norse pantheon with a twist (in that the "prophesied" ending was in fact a lie put forth by "Loki" and others working WITH the norse gods to lure their enemies to their doom).
In the end, I think this kind of stuff shows, yes, we can salvage it. We just need to discuss where to take it and collaborate.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/363274/The-Metahel-Pantheon-of-Anchorome |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Jan 2022 21:07:36 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2022 : 22:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Regarding some of this, one thing we were working on was the idea that some cultures had developed a lot of experience with glassteel or similar things like the material that thri-kreen weaponry is made of a crystalline material that they make with their spittle. Then there was the Maztican plumastone, which was an exceptionally hard obsidian. Think also of the Tsurani with their lacquered wood weaponry and armor in the riftwar saga by Raymond E. Feist. After all, who says that faerunian metallurgy is necessarily superior to ceramic style weaponry.It may be in OUR world, but this is a different world.
I did something similar with stone giants. They make weapons out of basalt, granite, and obsidian. Because of what I developed for a history of Sunset Vale, I have a rune magic-enhanced granite sword in Corm Orp from over 3,000 years ago. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 01:55:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where can it be found? I will say, of the stuff Seethyr's done, I more liked his Anchorome and Lopango stuff. He very much did a good job on Maztica I felt too, but everything can use a twist.
There is this document.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nXAWTHix7dTs37z5VIF6m5ikwKkyZgMU/view
As far as I've read, the author also goes with the concept that there were no gods in Abeir. Anyways, I really like some of his ideas. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 12:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where can it be found? I will say, of the stuff Seethyr's done, I more liked his Anchorome and Lopango stuff. He very much did a good job on Maztica I felt too, but everything can use a twist.
There is this document.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nXAWTHix7dTs37z5VIF6m5ikwKkyZgMU/view
As far as I've read, the author also goes with the concept that there were no gods in Abeir. Anyways, I really like some of his ideas.
There are some really good ideas there. I like the idea and the use of the dragons coming in and shaking up things quite a bit in Maztica. Seems like Maztica is something that indeed could strangely enough be improved from the effects of the Spellplague.
Though it doesn't seem like the author has worked on this since 2019. |
Edited by - deserk on 17 Jan 2022 12:43:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 14:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Where can it be found? I will say, of the stuff Seethyr's done, I more liked his Anchorome and Lopango stuff. He very much did a good job on Maztica I felt too, but everything can use a twist.
There is this document.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nXAWTHix7dTs37z5VIF6m5ikwKkyZgMU/view
As far as I've read, the author also goes with the concept that there were no gods in Abeir. Anyways, I really like some of his ideas.
There are some really good ideas there. I like the idea and the use of the dragons coming in and shaking up things quite a bit in Maztica. Seems like Maztica is something that indeed could strangely enough be improved from the effects of the Spellplague.
Though it doesn't seem like the author has worked on this since 2019.
Will have to look this guy's stuff over, but to note, the main reason I wanted gods over there was so that dragons wouldn't just come in and rampage. To me, setting up a bunch of new dragon overlord held lands is boring as hell. That's what Laerakond is for. We also have it in the lands past the Old Empires in like Semphar or Murghom. At least up in Anchorome, there's the Great Spirits to help defend things, and I've done my own story with turquoise dragonborn where they turned on their dragon master to make a new type of dragonborn community that's not vayemniri. I will say, I do like Seethyr's lopango, so I want to see what this guy did with that region. Maybe a mesh if possible. Well, off to read. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 15:11:56
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I think that putting dragon overlords helps to change things up in the areas sent to Abeir, leaving room for improvement. While other areas may not need improvements, Maztica (as written in official sources) needs a lot of it.
It also makes sense. You can't sent Eltulgard to the hell and then pretend that nothing happened. You can't sent Maztica to Dragon World, and pretend dragons didn't migrate. It makes no sense at all. However, putting a few dragons and using them to give Maztica its needed character development it's a good idea.
As for Lopango, he only added the mining city of Cerico, that was the whole epicenter of the rebellion against the dragons later on. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Jan 2022 15:14:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 19:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I think that putting dragon overlords helps to change things up in the areas sent to Abeir, leaving room for improvement. While other areas may not need improvements, Maztica (as written in official sources) needs a lot of it.
It also makes sense. You can't sent Eltulgard to the hell and then pretend that nothing happened. You can't sent Maztica to Dragon World, and pretend dragons didn't migrate. It makes no sense at all. However, putting a few dragons and using them to give Maztica its needed character development it's a good idea.
As for Lopango, he only added the mining city of Cerico, that was the whole epicenter of the rebellion against the dragons later on.
Totally agree with what you said. A Few is fine. Haven't had a chance to review that document yet, but plan too, once I get rid of my visitors. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2022 : 22:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Drow were an easy target for more aggressive retconning because they don't really resemble any RL culture or ethnic group to any large degree
If one takes the time to look at them - really look at them - they'll see that they don't, but, apparently, enough people pushed the idea that this fictional race IS some sort of stealth analog of a real-life human ethnicity/group. Well, either that or Wizards of the Coast was fearful of backlash and preemptively altered the Drow before the complaints rose to a cacophony. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2022 : 21:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Here is the thing. Someone did redo Matztica in a sensitive way here:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/171534/MZC1-The-Maztica-Campaign-Guide
But even with that, first comment is "don't you find it low key offensive how you write that this continent returned, practically, for those who want to plunder it, as if the rehashed colonial trope wasn't bad enough in its inception. Did anyone of mexica or indigenous descent work on this with you or was it all your research? imo there are alot of good ideas in here, but they are overshadowed by the colonial lens."
basically you will never succeed unless the region is razed and rebuilt. And for that we need a F.R. task force to work with Ed Greenwood under permission from WOTC.
Whomever said that needs to take a reality lesson, in both the RW and D&D. |
Sam |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 15:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I think that putting dragon overlords helps to change things up in the areas sent to Abeir, leaving room for improvement. While other areas may not need improvements, Maztica (as written in official sources) needs a lot of it.
It also makes sense. You can't sent Eltulgard to the hell and then pretend that nothing happened. You can't sent Maztica to Dragon World, and pretend dragons didn't migrate. It makes no sense at all. However, putting a few dragons and using them to give Maztica its needed character development it's a good idea.
As for Lopango, he only added the mining city of Cerico, that was the whole epicenter of the rebellion against the dragons later on.
Totally agree with what you said. A Few is fine. Haven't had a chance to review that document yet, but plan too, once I get rid of my visitors.
Hmmm, so far, not big on it. They have the dragons basically coming in and enslaving the continent. That being said, there are a few things I like, so quoting them and making notes on what I'd do to change them.
But not all omens were dire. Tewahca, the ancient City of the Gods near modern Tukan, had long been a popular pilgrimage destination among those who kept to the Old Ways. When Camaxtli, a devotee of Qotal, made the pilgrimage soon after the Night of Falling Stars, she was astounded to discover a vast tree in Tewahca which seemed to vanish into the sky. When she reached its base, she beheld a vision of the gods who told her that they were working to set Maztica right and that if the Mazticans continued to support them with ritual, prayer, and sacrifice Maztica would return to its former place of the cosmos - with the World Tree being the new center that connected the world and the realms of the gods.
After this, Camaxtli and other priests of the Maztican gods were once again able to call upon their miracles - but only in the City of the Gods where they were close to the World Tree.
So, the changes I'd institute... Camaxtli went to the city and she found the tree just following the transfer because of a dream. She was accompanied though by Erixitl (the young priestess of Qotal in the novels), Halloran the warrior from the golden legion who was a former Thayan apprentice and Erixitl's husband, Poshtli the Eagle Knight, as well as a pair of desert dwarves who had been devotees of Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe in some form (maybe a paladin and a priestess).
When they arrive at the city of the gods, they find the tree, but they find other things. For instance, a beautiful butterfly sits atop the pyramid, seated upon a beautiful rose growing from a crack in the rocks. They find a mask of a dwarven face with fire dancing from its eyes. They find a wig/headdress of long silver hair. They come across a toucan whose beak seemingly changes colors. Each is representative of a god. In the end, everyone that came to the city leaves acting as the vessel for a god (Camaxtli as Watil, Erixitl as Kiltzi the love/healing goddess despite having been chosen by Qotal, Poshtli as Qotal's, the dwarves as Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe, and Halloran as Savras and his "familiar" becomes the talking toucan which is Nula). They bring the ability to serve the gods out from the city, in the form of minor artifacts within the city that act as "links" back to the city. Using them, they can enchant new artifacts that they can bring to other temples in the True world to spread the godly influence. One of the things they do is travel to the Sunstone (a volcanic caldera in the House of Tezca desert which gives visions) and establish another city there of both humans and desert dwarves. In doing so, Halloran loses the spirit of Savras into the silvery lake. The area becomes a weave anchor, and they build a school here which teaches pluma magic, hishna magic, and how to be a diviner.
The silver of the lake becomes also a conduit for Haela Brightaxe and dwarves are known to bathe in cupfuls of its water to awaken their ties to the goddess of battle fury. Doing so turns their hair silver. A temple to Gorm Gulthyn is also established here, with the mask of Gorm Gulthyn being placed upon anyone who would become an active worshipper, creating a link to their god. Many animals are brought to the temple of Nula here and in Tukan, and she awakens the creatures by having them touch the silver lake (this also makes them part of the many eyes of Savras). The temple of Watil provides seeds in the form of ears of corn, once dipped in the waters of the silver lake, and where these seeds are planted, new minor weave anchors are established. A temple to Kiltzi is established, with new priestesses coming to view their own reflection and "see their inner beauty" in the surface of the mirror like lake.
Others might make similar journeys to the city of the gods to discover other gods, as this become something like a celestial staircase area.
From here, I'd probably transfer the gods to other beings. For instance, Poshtli might meet with a couatl. This couatl takes on the spirit of Qotal, and when a dragon comes to invade somewhere the couatl kills the dragon. Watil may reach out and strangle a dragon using the very jungle itself against it in an area where her seeds have been planted. Nula sends a pig to jump into the mouth of a dragon and lodge itself in its throat, choking it to death. Eha has a swarm of birds blind a dragon by pecking at its eyes, and it then crashes into a mountain and breaks its own skull. You know, crazy stuff, and crazy enough that dragons think twice about coming there to act as overlords. Its not just mortals "rising up and slaying the dragons".... its beasts and the very land that are sometimes the threat.
In many of the ruins where people watched the stars for portents and such, I would probably have the worship of Savras spread there. These also become weave anchors to a minor degree, and the people begin to learn not just pluma and hishna, but they learn to harness arcane magic by incorporating the use of spellcasting focus objects. Crafting spellcasting focuses that work becomes an important crafting skill, and pluma and hishna can be used to do this (as well as artificers).
I also like THIS from that resource, but I'd change the timing
the spawn of the Viperhand in Nexal rose up against their ruler Fire of the Mountain. She had remained in her lair, fearing treachery at Cerico - but it helped her not, and her titanic heart was the first to be offered at the resanctified altar of Zaltec and her hoard was plundered by the half-breeds.
So, this I'd have happen when a red dragon takes over the city of Nexal and brings in his dragonborn allies. I'd have the orcs, ogres, jagres, and trolls rise up under the leadership of a jagre. I'd have them taking the dragonborn captive and sacrificing them in secret to Tezca, and this awakens their ability to wield divine power. They then take on the red dragon, and they sacrifice its heart to Zaltec. Similarly in Kolan, a paladin of vengeance might rise up against another red dragon and sacrifice its entire body to Tezca. Maybe they do so with the help of the dragonborn though and their culture becomes integrated.
this idea of a green dragon "Queen of Fang and Poison" in the jungles of Far Payit who has learned hishna magic. I like this, but she shouldn't hold the whole thing. I also see the idea of her importing some dragonborn there as believable. They should be opposed by the tabaxi of the region though, and the worship of Nula and Watil both may be growing popularity there. Also, since the original boxed set kind of glossed over Far Payit and had numerous hidden ruined cities in the jungles, why not include some tortles as occupying several of these ruined cities. You might, for instance, have a tortle city protected by a dragon turtle from Faerun who doesn't like the dragons of Abeir. Another tortle city may worship the Maztican god Azul, giver of rain and taker of breath, and they may have stolen some of the slaves of the green dragon just to sacrifice them to their god and empower Azul, and they may be zealous as hell with control of hishna magics. Maybe noone knew of these tortles because they kill anyone that shows up. Another tortle city may worship Nula and Watil and be more nature oriented, but more inclined to reptiles, dinosaurs, and amphibians (crocodile and giant frog pets, riding giant crocodiles, awakened crocodile friends, giant iguanas, giant snakes, etc...). Sahuagin raids should also be a problem for this green dragoness, such that she's not just some ruling empress, but a beleaguered dragoness trying to hold a land that's not easy to hold.
In doing the focus on Watil, Nula and Azul in Far Payit, it would be a good way to show the influence of these other gods more. Qotal and Kiltzi become more gods of the people in Tukan and Sunstone, and their sisters grow stronger in the jungles. It should also be noted that much of this talks about dragons bringing in dragonborns, but humans and dwarves also served dragonkind in Abeir. It absolutely might fit that some humans or dwarves brought in with the dragons might join up with the Mazticans or desert dwarves in an uprising not unlike the vayemniri (still halfway through let's see if that happens later).
this concept of the optical telegraph (essentialy signal towers using something like morse code).... I really like this. It doesn't need to be in Payit, and it works fine in places like Kolan and in the desert known as the House of Tezca and in mountains (and I may steal it for my United Tharchs).
They have an alliance with the temple of Tezca, due to their joint work on the Eyes of Tezca - an optical telegraph network operating from the top of the temples ot Tezca (located both on their traditional pyramids as well as other high elevations).
On the story of the Kultakans, which is very much similar to the vayemniri rising up against their dragon overlord, I think this could be pretty good. One addition to it might be that the Kultakans have learned from Cordell's invaders in the 20+ years after the initial invasion, and I'm not just talking about in the form of magic. The Kultakans seem to be an adaptable people.
The idea that there may be Elan people in Anchorome as well as the "ghost people" of Anchorome, we do have that the Elan were from Jhaamdath. This could be a possibly interesting tie in to Faerun if done right, but so far not seeing much other than the name.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Jan 2022 18:24:01 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 16:53:44
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Well, the dragon overlords enslaving people is lore-friendly. Dragons of Abeir never experienced the Rage of Dragons that debilitated their species in Toril. They are bigger, meaner and more powerful than your standard Tchazzar. And so they taking advantage of all the chaos that followed the Spellplague and the Godless Years to enslave the main cities of Maztica makes sense. It also give the Mazticans their own agency, because they overthrow these dragon overlords on their own, without the help of any Faerunian this time. They are not the weakling Mazticans of 2e anymore. The imperialist Amnians, and Waterdhavians and drows will have a hard time if they want to reclaim "their" former colonies m
Personally, I will put another dragon overlord in Fort Flame. And he is one of the survivors, still in control of his fiefdom and still a threat to Maztica as a whole. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jan 2022 16:54:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2022 : 17:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, the dragon overlords enslaving people is lore-friendly. Dragons of Abeir never experienced the Rage of Dragons that debilitated their species in Toril. They are bigger, meaner and more powerful than your standard Tchazzar. And so they taking advantage of all the chaos that followed the Spellplague and the Godless Years to enslave the main cities of Maztica makes sense. It also give the Mazticans their own agency, because they overthrow these dragon overlords on their own, without the help of any Faerunian this time. They are not the weakling Mazticans of 2e anymore. The imperialist Amnians, and Waterdhavians and drows will have a hard time if they want to reclaim "their" former colonies m
Personally, I will put another dragon overlord in Fort Flame. And he is one of the survivors, still in control of his fiefdom and still a threat to Maztica as a whole.
In general, we only saw some of the dragons of Abeir, and most were no different than any other dragon. A few were special. Same with Toril though. Now, in ancient times, that may have been the case.
On the swarming in the timespan that things changed, that's a very human way of thinking. Dragons think long term because they live a long time. So, any major dragon might not jump on this new land, because they might take a "wait and see" attitude. Younger, less powerful dragons might try to seize things, having less to lose per se, but even that won't be right away as they have to learn of the place. More powerful dragons might be of the mind of "let the others waste their strength and we'll come in and mop them up". Some dragons may not even do anything more than send troops, who may not stay loyal as well. Then before you know it, a few years pass and things change. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Jan 2022 18:57:11 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2022 : 02:00:45
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| The way I see it, seven dragons (or eight) will make not that difference. I mean, they will conquer seven cities of a whole continent (or two, if you his idea about Cerico in Lopango). And there is a logical, lore-friendly for why they did it. As for the slavery stuff, I guess there is not much difference into bringing dragons to Maztica and bringing Thayans to Maztica. And bringing dragons to Maztica allow us to develop Maztica beyond its awful 2e lore. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2022 : 17:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The way I see it, seven dragons (or eight) will make not that difference. I mean, they will conquer seven cities of a whole continent (or two, if you his idea about Cerico in Lopango). And there is a logical, lore-friendly for why they did it. As for the slavery stuff, I guess there is not much difference into bringing dragons to Maztica and bringing Thayans to Maztica. And bringing dragons to Maztica allow us to develop Maztica beyond its awful 2e lore.
You see it as seven cities, I see it written up as all the regions of Maztica divided and ruled by seven dragons with no area free of their influence. Even Lopango was "conquered and shared by them all". Its the scope, not the number. Its exactly why my Thayans are occupying a very small corner. To note, I didn't say anything about slavery either. I have no problem with this except the scale that the whole continent gets conquered by some dragons, who put everyone under their thumb in no time at all. Meanwhile, I picture it more like.... if ants were to come at me, yeah, I'm big and powerful, but their little bites are going to kill me. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
129 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2022 : 17:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by gregc
Here is the thing. Someone did redo Matztica in a sensitive way here:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/171534/MZC1-The-Maztica-Campaign-Guide
But even with that, first comment is "don't you find it low key offensive how you write that this continent returned, practically, for those who want to plunder it, as if the rehashed colonial trope wasn't bad enough in its inception. Did anyone of mexica or indigenous descent work on this with you or was it all your research? imo there are alot of good ideas in here, but they are overshadowed by the colonial lens."
basically you will never succeed unless the region is razed and rebuilt. And for that we need a F.R. task force to work with Ed Greenwood under permission from WOTC.
I admire the work that Seethyr has done (I got it all in the hope of one day playing in a pre-Columbian fantasy world), but I can see where the criticism is coming from.
I once played a game set in a 60's America where people had developed some ability to do magic, and I thought it could be interesting to play a young black American, who would want to reconnect with the heritage that was stolen from him by rediscovering the magical rituals of his African ancestors (except, he would use them with actual magic in the air). Of course, considering the sensitivity of the topic (I didn't want to end up with a racist caricature), I looked up scholarly sources that described the kind of African magic my character would want to use. And what I found was precisely the kind of caricature I wanted to avoid. The problem is that I know next to nothing about those cultures, whereas the anthropologists who wrote those papers in the early 20th century certainly had had some contact with their research topic. I simply had no way to determine whether what I was reading was the racist biases of the authors, or an accurate description of a culture that is very different from mine. After all, it's not as if medieval European cultures lacked their share of cruel superstitions, and I don't know that medieval Europe wouldn't look as bad, had African anthropologists come to write about it...
In the case of native American cultures, we are lucky to have the work of Bernardino de Sahag#250;n, who was a much better ethnographer than any missionary priest from the 16th century had any right to be. His research is a really good start to understand Aztec cultures and their traditions. But violence is a big part of their myths and their culture, and even though we don't have to take everything into our fantasy version, only taking the positive aspects of the culture without those key values would be falling into the "noble savage" archetype. That's why I agree with the person who commented on Seethyr's work: adapting a culture that is very different from yours is difficult, especially when you're starting from the very unhealthy base of Maztica as it was written in the early 90's. I think what matters is inclusivity: that people who identify with the cultures that served as inspiration for those places can play as characters from a believable culture that they can recognise and be proud of, even if their values are very different from the modern values of the player. And that can only be done by including those people in the design (but it seems that Seethyr has really been listening to the criticisms to make his version of the western continent better, so hopefully that's already the case!) |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2022 : 21:23:53
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Thank you folks for the kind words here. I try my best to do the best job with Maztica but hey, we are all imperfect.
Anyway though on the dragons. I always thought about how Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango would have handled the dragon overlords that undoubtedly would’ve loved to subjugate the True World. A flight of reds featured heavily in the Pasocada Basin where they were fought off by one of the spirits (Great Raven) and the first ever standing army put together in Opallinoc which was canonically the most populous center in the Basin. There is (also canonically) a mesa there called the Black Mesa which was virtually made out of coal which the Azuposi use for ritual purposes. Put all that coal together with a bunch of dragons and you can see why it’s now called the Burnt Mesa.
I also placed a mirage dragon that keeps to itself in one of the forests and a spirit of the Abeil in the land of the Insect men know as Ah’Muzen’Cab died battling dragons as well.
But in reality I wanted to keep dragons away from Maztica particularly because I thought they would take a bit away from the uniqueness of the setting. I know that serpents feature heavily in Aztec and Mayan myth but dragons in the European sense of the word just didn’t seem to fit. When working on Maztica I wanted it to stand on its own, without the standard tropes found everywhere else in Toril and dragons made me feel like it was too much of “more of the same.” Anyway, I tried to leave the writing nebulous enough though so that anyone who wanted to work them in could. I loved seeing that that’s exactly what a lot of folks did and it’s been hella fun to read. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 02:57:25
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Well, we think a bit different in that regard. Maztica is part of a D&D world. So for good or ill, it needs some D&Disms. Like dragons, and elves, and stuff. The problem with Maztica as it is in 2e is that the Real world-stuff gets in the way of the D&Disms in a disruptive form. To make Maztica a better D&D world we need to balance the D&Disms with the uniqueness of a pre-Columbian fantasy world.
And yes, I emphasize the fantasy word because so far all the fantasy settings I've found about pre-Columbian cultures are just not-Real World cliché tropes...
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jan 2022 03:05:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 05:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, we think a bit different in that regard. Maztica is part of a D&D world. So for good or ill, it needs some D&Disms. Like dragons, and elves, and stuff. The problem with Maztica as it is in 2e is that the Real world-stuff gets in the way of the D&Disms in a disruptive form. To make Maztica a better D&D world we need to balance the D&Disms with the uniqueness of a pre-Columbian fantasy world.
And yes, I emphasize the fantasy word because so far all the fantasy settings I've found about pre-Columbian cultures are just not-Real World cliché tropes...
He's not saying he's avoiding all D&Disms -- just standard dragons. And I think that's fair. There's a lot of D&D critters to choose from, without having the exact same dragons that show up in the rest of the world. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 10:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, we think a bit different in that regard. Maztica is part of a D&D world. So for good or ill, it needs some D&Disms. Like dragons, and elves, and stuff. The problem with Maztica as it is in 2e is that the Real world-stuff gets in the way of the D&Disms in a disruptive form. To make Maztica a better D&D world we need to balance the D&Disms with the uniqueness of a pre-Columbian fantasy world.
And yes, I emphasize the fantasy word because so far all the fantasy settings I've found about pre-Columbian cultures are just not-Real World cliché tropes...
He's not saying he's avoiding all D&Disms -- just standard dragons. And I think that's fair. There's a lot of D&D critters to choose from, without having the exact same dragons that show up in the rest of the world.
Exactly. I actually had Dragonlance in mind for what I wanted to avoid. Though I didn’t read the series I remember something about a Chaos War with massive dragon lords. I just felt it had been done. Laerakond has a lot of that also from what I have heard and I use Sleyvas’ map which has Laerakond still in the ocean in my personal campaign. That would be two dragon realms in very close proximity.
Zeromaru’s point on elves though is a good one. With the exception of a few drow (the Ancient Ones) Maztica is surprisingly lacking in elven races. There are desert dwarves and the jungle halflings but no elves. I was hoping to remedy that by throwing rockseers and the whole Shaboath aboleth city in the underdark, but for my home campaign. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 12:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The way I see it, seven dragons (or eight) will make not that difference. I mean, they will conquer seven cities of a whole continent (or two, if you his idea about Cerico in Lopango). And there is a logical, lore-friendly for why they did it. As for the slavery stuff, I guess there is not much difference into bringing dragons to Maztica and bringing Thayans to Maztica. And bringing dragons to Maztica allow us to develop Maztica beyond its awful 2e lore.
You see it as seven cities, I see it written up as all the regions of Maztica divided and ruled by seven dragons with no area free of their influence. Even Lopango was "conquered and shared by them all". Its the scope, not the number. Its exactly why my Thayans are occupying a very small corner. To note, I didn't say anything about slavery either. I have no problem with this except the scale that the whole continent gets conquered by some dragons, who put everyone under their thumb in no time at all. Meanwhile, I picture it more like.... if ants were to come at me, yeah, I'm big and powerful, but their little bites are going to kill me.
Also, just because I know I haven't really shown the scope much of what I'm picturing for my United Tharchs (I think I've even only showed this to Seethyr once, maybe 2 years back, and its changed since then)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SU8gwGiDmVfDwF2S0sn0VF2Qbx9V3dC9/view?usp=sharing
This map compares what that person did with dragons coming in and conquering in just decade(s)... in red.... Comparing that to my United tharchs circles in pink of what hundreds of thousands of humans (mostly free non-mulans, but allied with mulans) to create a group of allied "tharchs" across the world (map doesn't show the small section in the shaar where Peleverai is, the wizard's reach, or floating in space). Note that some of the pink circles are kind of big even, just because its hard to make circles too small and still see them.
This is why I say its the scope and not the story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Jan 2022 13:49:51 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 13:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Thank you folks for the kind words here. I try my best to do the best job with Maztica but hey, we are all imperfect.
Anyway though on the dragons. I always thought about how Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango would have handled the dragon overlords that undoubtedly would’ve loved to subjugate the True World. A flight of reds featured heavily in the Pasocada Basin where they were fought off by one of the spirits (Great Raven) and the first ever standing army put together in Opallinoc which was canonically the most populous center in the Basin. There is (also canonically) a mesa there called the Black Mesa which was virtually made out of coal which the Azuposi use for ritual purposes. Put all that coal together with a bunch of dragons and you can see why it’s now called the Burnt Mesa.
I also placed a mirage dragon that keeps to itself in one of the forests and a spirit of the Abeil in the land of the Insect men know as Ah’Muzen’Cab died battling dragons as well.
But in reality I wanted to keep dragons away from Maztica particularly because I thought they would take a bit away from the uniqueness of the setting. I know that serpents feature heavily in Aztec and Mayan myth but dragons in the European sense of the word just didn’t seem to fit. When working on Maztica I wanted it to stand on its own, without the standard tropes found everywhere else in Toril and dragons made me feel like it was too much of “more of the same.” Anyway, I tried to leave the writing nebulous enough though so that anyone who wanted to work them in could. I loved seeing that that’s exactly what a lot of folks did and it’s been hella fun to read.
Yep, and up in Anchorome, I've tried to make hints here and there about how this dragon or that dragon tried to come in and got their comeuppance due to the great spirits or the people of the region. One was having a great spirit influence and empower some dragonborn to turn on their master.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/377881/Breath-of-HliAkwa-the-Birth-of-the-Turquoise-Dragonborn
In another, people from the tharch of Esh Alakar use flying ships to attack a dragon and kill it (I think I had the ships filled with bombard oil and smokepowder?)
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/352561/United-Tharchs-of-Toril--Secret-Cities--Strange-Skyships-of-Anchorome
In my latest, I have a verbolgkyn giant named Ral Banyun riding in on Baeg the Bloommoose to rescue an amber dragon from an invading green. (a verbolgkyn is essentially my new term for traditional firbold mixed with verbeeg mixed with voadkyn.... and Baeg is a Giant Bull Moose).
Finally, in my latest I have a dragon choosing to use a portal to send thousands of gnoll troops over rather than risking itself. I then have a dragon raising something like a mythal to protect a great tree and force those troops away, and this "mythal" slowly absorbs dozens of its kin from the region to empower and expand itself (my way to say there had been more of this dragon there, and now there's just two... and some faerie dragons).
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/384365/The-Influence-of-the-Amber-Dragons-of-Anchorome-on-the-North
That latter also contains a bit of a story about WHY there aren't a lot of green dragons in Anchorome (there was a feud several centuries back between amber dragons and green dragons when a green dragon "married" an amber dragon and left her clan, resulting in the deaths of most of both types on the continent.... yep the hatfields and mccoys with dragons). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 13:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, we think a bit different in that regard. Maztica is part of a D&D world. So for good or ill, it needs some D&Disms. Like dragons, and elves, and stuff. The problem with Maztica as it is in 2e is that the Real world-stuff gets in the way of the D&Disms in a disruptive form. To make Maztica a better D&D world we need to balance the D&Disms with the uniqueness of a pre-Columbian fantasy world.
And yes, I emphasize the fantasy word because so far all the fantasy settings I've found about pre-Columbian cultures are just not-Real World cliché tropes...
He has dragons. A unique two-headed one that's kind of serpentish down in Maztica. A Mishipeshu (which they don't like great spirits, and may hunt other dragons... they're called mater lynx in other cultures... but they do tend to be smaller and less powerful than larger dragons, so they'd probably hunt wyrmlings and young). He introduces turquoise dragons, but they are a new race and few in number.
My latest additions puts brown dragons in the Sands of Itzcala desert (which I didn't make stats for, but they are from FR specifically old empires, so I stuck them in another large desert... they spit gobs of molten sand if I recall correctly) and amber dragons in the northern forests. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 13:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, we think a bit different in that regard. Maztica is part of a D&D world. So for good or ill, it needs some D&Disms. Like dragons, and elves, and stuff. The problem with Maztica as it is in 2e is that the Real world-stuff gets in the way of the D&Disms in a disruptive form. To make Maztica a better D&D world we need to balance the D&Disms with the uniqueness of a pre-Columbian fantasy world.
And yes, I emphasize the fantasy word because so far all the fantasy settings I've found about pre-Columbian cultures are just not-Real World cliché tropes...
He's not saying he's avoiding all D&Disms -- just standard dragons. And I think that's fair. There's a lot of D&D critters to choose from, without having the exact same dragons that show up in the rest of the world.
Exactly. I actually had Dragonlance in mind for what I wanted to avoid. Though I didn’t read the series I remember something about a Chaos War with massive dragon lords. I just felt it had been done. Laerakond has a lot of that also from what I have heard and I use Sleyvas’ map which has Laerakond still in the ocean in my personal campaign. That would be two dragon realms in very close proximity.
Zeromaru’s point on elves though is a good one. With the exception of a few drow (the Ancient Ones) Maztica is surprisingly lacking in elven races. There are desert dwarves and the jungle halflings but no elves. I was hoping to remedy that by throwing rockseers and the whole Shaboath aboleth city in the underdark, but for my home campaign.
Bear this in mind... you introduced "jungle drow" as the Lolthite drow in Lopango who have been through a lot of problems. One of the things I had mentioned at one point was "what if some of these escaped and formed their own society, maybe worshipping another deity" and I mentioned the tlincalli god (Vulkoor? Vulkoon? forget your spelling, but you seem to have drawn him from the Eberron idea of jungle drow but adapted him to tlincalli since those jungle drow revered scorpions)
So, to tack onto that (not replacing), we have new lore that there are Lorendrow.... jungle drow in FR.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lorendrow
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Saekolath
Who says that Lopango doesn't have all three.... Lorendrow with their own culture and possibly worshipping Watil and Nula of the Maztican pantheon (plants and animals). Another group of masculine drow worshipping the tlincalli god. Then some female drow still worshipping Lolth, but who need to break away from their current masters (and we have the other drow that were in Nexal as well).
That would put Poscadri elves in Anchorome, Snow elves in Blacktoe Glacier, and different groups of drow in Maztica/Lopango. Then abeil as well playing something like the roles of elves in a lot of Anchorome.
Then for myself... in Katashaka are some imported elves recently, and some fey'ri that exiled themselves there... and maybe more Lorendrow.
Also, bear in mind.... with just a little rewrite we can entirely change the "green folk" presented in the original maztican boxed set. They could be wood elves (green folk = green elves?). They could be jungle drow. They could be half-elves. After all... they are good with bows, have a bonus to dex, are shorter than humans, worship the gods of nature.... I actually like the idea that perhaps, like the scots using woad to paint their bodies blue... these elves/half-elves use some plant to paint themselves with green when hunting and thus became known as "the green folk". Picturing that with green paint and coppery, brown, or black skin really paints a picture for me. Maybe the people of Kolan are DOZENS of generations removed, so they don't show their elven heritage as much anymore from mating with the people of Maztica or the Naticans.
Similarly, having a group of jungle drow that follow the fire/sun god Intiri appeals to me a lot too, complete with the practice of gathering plumage for plumaweaving. Possibly even they paint/tattoo their faces with yellow/orange/golden paints instead of green. Picturing when I talk of this, the sunfire elves of the dragonprince series but minus the horns.
https://dragonprince.fandom.com/wiki/Sunfire_Elves
************from Maztican boxed set************
[/i]Green Folk
Like the Dog People, the tribesmen who live among the southern jungles of the True World dwell in groups of villages, with no central government or large cities. The exception to this is the nation of Kolan, along the western coast of the continent#151;there, some of the cultural traits of the Maztican peoples have blended with the racial heritage of the Green Folk. The Green Folk resemble the Payit in stature. They protect their privacy savagely, and few who venture into their forests ever return.
They are skilled with the use of kurari poison, and are excellent archers. They worship the gods of nature, and though they do not
practice human sacrifice as a religious ritual, they rarely let
prisoners live for long, except in the case of a captive who demonstrates some unusual capability or can provide a strong reason for being allowed to live.
Game Notes: Characters of the Green Folk receive a +1 to their Dexterity Scores, in exchange for a -1 penalty to Strength. They gain a +1 to hit when using a bow and arrow. They can be warriors, rogues, or priests. Priests can serve Watil, Nula, Maztica, or Qotal, advancing to the ninth level of experience in any class, even while they remain among their own people.[/i] |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Jan 2022 14:52:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 20:11:52
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The only problem I have with this is the same one I have with 5e as a whole: this is Dungeons & Dragons, not Dungeons & Elves,  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jan 2022 20:12:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 22:06:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The only problem I have with this is the same one I have with 5e as a whole: this is Dungeons & Dragons, not Dungeons & Elves,
True... But D&D is long past being focused on just dungeons and just dragons -- and elves were there from the beginning, too.
If I was trying to do something with Maztica, I'd go for something between coatl and the lung dragons of Kara-Tur. I'd maybe look at Shadowrun's feathered serpents for inspiration. Something draconic, but instead of being the majestic hexapods of Faerûn, smaller and more sinuous like the dragons of Asian folklore, maybe like a really big snake with wings (and no other limbs) and a different head. Basically, upsizing the standard coatl, maybe giving it another set of wings.
These kind of dragons might have rays or something else they use, instead of breathe weapons, too.
And even if I kept the near-immortality, I'd have them do something other than hanging out on piles of gold and sniping at other dragons that enter their territory.
Imagine, for example, if a particular dragon was a thirty-foot snake with feathers and wings, and lived in an area with its extended family, and their focus was on keeping that area vibrant and bountiful.
Doing something like that, you'd still have dragons, but they'd fit in better and be something rather unlike PC expectations. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Jan 2022 22:07:34 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 22:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The only problem I have with this is the same one I have with 5e as a whole: this is Dungeons & Dragons, not Dungeons & Elves,
If I was trying to do something with Maztica, I'd go for something between coatl and the lung dragons of Kara-Tur. I'd maybe look at Shadowrun's feathered serpents for inspiration. Something draconic, but instead of being the majestic hexapods of Faerûn, smaller and more sinuous like the dragons of Asian folklore, maybe like a really big snake with wings (and no other limbs) and a different head. Basically, upsizing the standard coatl, maybe giving it another set of wings.
These kind of dragons might have rays or something else they use, instead of breathe weapons, too.
And even if I kept the near-immortality, I'd have them do something other than hanging out on piles of gold and sniping at other dragons that enter their territory.
Imagine, for example, if a particular dragon was a thirty-foot snake with feathers and wings, and lived in an area with its extended family, and their focus was on keeping that area vibrant and bountiful.
Doing something like that, you'd still have dragons, but they'd fit in better and be something rather unlike PC expectations.
I like this idea. My take on SE Anchorome is that Maztica is Georgia and Farpayit is Florida. My fantasy is set in Farpayit, and the Dragons you propose would fit quite well in that environment. The dragons(coatls?) you describe are perfect for a sub-tropical world. I envision them as being Dragon Druids, maintaining a natural Balance, and as long as you respect that, they are tolerant of your presence. What a concept, Neutral dragons! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2022 : 22:56:15
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According to the FRWiki (and it says this is from GHotR), we have these occurances:
"Around -30,700 DR, a number of lammasu defeated a much larger force of Aearee-Krocaa, killing one thousand. The aearee later experimented on domesticated landwyrms to create winged wyrms, or wyverns. Supported by wyvern forces, the Aearee-Krocaa empire commenced a rapid expansion.
Around -30,400 DR, the gnolls of Urgnarash battled the aearee of Kookrui-Shara. Gnoll shamans, following Yeenoghu, summoned marrashi to spread disease among the aearee. Aearee crops were blighted, and the aearee suffered the Wasting Plague. The Aearee-Quor were decimated, and many of them began worshiping the demon lord Pazrael to seek salvation."
Now, if dragons first appeared around -31,000, whose to say that the Aearee didn't experiment with dragons just like they did with "landwyrms" and that created the dracoatls? They were moved to Maztica to protect them from the later Wasting Plague and they survived on after the Aearee became extinct. That would make Wooly's dracoatls a logical extension of existing canon. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 24 Jan 2022 22:57:36 |
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Can we salvage Toril?
