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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2021 : 19:09:38
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Greetings Realms-enthusiasts!
Well I'm wrapping up my Sunless Citadel campaign soon (next week is the BBEG) and I'll be stepping down as the DM while someone else takes over for a while. This leaves me time to write-up a new campaign (if they don't want to continue the Border Kingdoms one) and I've decided to base it on and around Phlan. Phlan has seem some popularity recently with the DDEX Tyranny of Dragons modules set in the city and does a somewhat decent job of updating existing lore to what's available. So I'm going to expand on that and add some things of my own (including info on past Characters and Factions).
So to start, I need a good timeline of events of what's been occurring in this troubled city. We already know a great deal from the various novels that were put out (The Pools series) and a few adventures (Monument to the Ancients) that coincide with what's been handled with Tyranny of Dragons. SO below, I'm going to re-cap the Canon events and then add my own (labled with an *).
I'm making this up as I go, so if it doesn't 'feel' right, let me know and maybe a better idea can present itself (in terms of past lore). I'm not set on anything non-canon, so any idea is fine with me (within reason). Here's what I got so far:
TIMELINE
1340 - Year of the Lion. Denlor the Red falls before the hordes of Phlan. Shal Bal of Corer, Tarl Desanea of Vaasa, and Ren o’ the Blade of Waterdeep arrive and begin to aid the Council of Ten in reclaiming the ruins of the city of Phlan. Yarash, the sorcerer and cause of the Barren rivers pollution is killed, the source of the Barren Rivers corruption is removed. Cardona embarks on a series of assassinations to seize power in the Council of Ten. Tyranthraxus - the Lord of the Ruins is defeated, the Pool of Radiance is destroyed. Cardona disappears.
1351 - Year of the Morningstar. Phlan is fully rebuilt and reaches the height of its power. Bane abducts the cities of the Moonsea in a grab for power and supplication. A party of adventurers, known as the Heroes of Phlan, restores it to the Prime Material Plane. None of the inhabitants have any memory of the events. The Hammer of Tyr, a relic to the The Waiting temple of Tyr is stolen by Bane at this time. Kern Desanea is born. The old paladin Miltiades rises into undeath to serve Tyr.
1356 - Year of the Worm. The Rage of Dragons occurs. An increasingly apathetic and corrupt populace of Phlan barely repel the dragons, which leave much destruction in their wake.
1357 - Year of the Prince. Zhentil Keep attempts to control all shipping in the Moonsea. Fleets out of Mulmaster and Melvaunt fight the Zhents to a stand still, forcing an uneasy truce.
1358 - Year of Shadows. The Time of Troubles occurs. Gods walk the world of Toril, cast out by Ao for their defiance and theft of the Tables of Fate. Mystra, goddess of magic is slain by Helm, god of Guardians. Torm and Bane battle as titans over the city of Tantras, killing both avatars in the process. The gods return the Table of Fate and Kelemvore take the mantle of God of the Dead. Cyric obtains Bane’s strife portfolio, and Midnight assumes the mantle of Mystra.
1368 - Year of the Banner. Zhentil Keep is destroyed. Frozen Zhentil ships wash up at Phlan. Phlan allies with Melvaunt, Hillsfar, and Thentia to form the ‘Moonsea Alliance’, which opposes Mulmaster and the Zhentarim.
1369 - Year of the Gauntlet. The Pool of Radiance once again reemerged underneath Valjevo Castle, created by Kya Mordrayn as the leader of the Cult of the Dragon in the ruins of Myth Drannor in an attempt to alter and taint it's Mythal. It was ended by a group of adventurers called the Veiled Ones.
1372 - Year of Wild Magic. Kern Desanea recovers the relic known as the Hammer of Tyr, however Ren o’ the Blade perishes in its attempt. Miltiades returns to death, but is restored by the power of Tyr and rewarded with a new life for his actions. Phlan begins to recover the the miasma of despair that overcame it. Bane returns to the world, breaking from his ‘Son’ Iyachtu Xvim and reclaims his title as the God of Tyranny. Netherese wizards return from their isolation in the Shadowfell as Shades and take up residence in their ancestral homeland of the Anauroch Desert.
1374 - Year of Lightning Storms. Phlan has fully recovered with the return of the Hammer of Tyr. Paladins Kern Desanea and Miltaides travel to Waterdeep for the wedding of Lord Piergerion. Elves end their retreat and retake Myth Drannor. A series of attacks from the Zhents on the Dalelands leaves destruction in their wake.
1375 - The Year of Risen Elfkin. The early months sees the war in the Dalelands end as the Zhent forces are driven from Shadowdale. The Castelian of Darkhold - Scullya Darkhope is slain in battle. **The hamlet of Thistledale is reborn, led by Morn Beskash.** Shades attempt to steal the Nether Scroll in an attempt to completely destroy the Weave forever. This is stopped by the same group of adventurers that ended the Zhentarim threat in the Dalelands. The Temple Wars break out in Phlan, as Hatemaster Cvaal Daoran leads Zhentarim forces into Phlan and lay waste to their defenses. **The Tyrrans fall back to Sokol Keep, their last bastion of defense.** In the end, Cvaal proclaims Phlan as Zhentarim territory and it’s people protected under the Black Hands Banner.
**Morn Beskash was a PC who helped in our Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land adventure and his backstory was that his family - lords of Thistledale - were slain by Zhents and he was framed. Coming back, he's regained his ancestral home and title. Cvaal does successfully invade Phlan in this year, the fate of the Temple Waiting and the Tyrran clergy is officially unknown.
1376 - Year of the Bent Blade. **The Tyrrans hold-out for 13 months in Sokol Keep as attacks against it's walls failed over and over. In the end, their last stand ended as Cvaal was able to summon Tanna’ri from the lower hells to kill the remaining Tyrran warriors. Only a few survived - Kern Desanea, Listle Onopordum, Shal Bal, and Tarl Desanea. They were able to transport - magically - to Denlor’s Tower. From there, Denlor’s tower was magically sealed.**
**Officially their fate is unknown. I felt it necessary to at least have some out for these legendary heroes, despite what happens in Canon to Phlan at this time. I doubt they would stand idly back and not do something to help. It's stated in Canon that Denlor's Tower is still magically sealed, this seemed like a good reason why.**
1380 - Year of the Blazing Hand. Hatemaster Cvaal Daoran dissolves the Countil of Ten in Phlan, proclaiming himself as Lord Protector of Phlan.
1383 - Year of the Vindicated Warrior. The Shadowbane War erupts over the Western and Central parts of Faerun as the Netherese claim significant swaths of power from the Zhents along the western areas of the Moonsea and completely turn Sembia into a controlled territory. The Dalelands, newly formed Elves of Cormanthyr, Cormyr, Western Heartlands, and the Silver Marches fight against the Shades, keeping them in check. Zhentil Keep is completely obliterated. Fzoul Chembryl is slain and the Zhentarim is scattered. Many run east and are greeted by Cvaal, accepting the refugees as new Phlan citizens. The Shades attempt to attack Phlan, but are repelled. During the battle, Cvaal single handedly slays a Shade Prince. Further, Cvaal forged an alliance with the dark fey of the Quivering Forest, stating no Phlan resident would disturb the wood in order for safe travels. Due to his diplomacy and staunch defense of his city, his subjected softened up to the notion of Zhentarim rule.
1385 - Year of Blue Fire. The beginning of the Spellplague in which Mystra is slain on her own plane of Dwemoheart, causing the destruction of **most of** the Weave and throwing the Realms into chaos. In Phlan, this made many magic-users go crazy or die. **Shal Desanea, still mourning the passing of her beloved husband Tarl, became afflicted with the spellplague. Using what power she had available, she warded Denlor’s tower to only open with Desanea blood and used a portal to go to her son Kern, daughter-in-law Listle, and baby daughter Shaera Desanea in Elturel for her final good-bye.**
**I say mostly because in my Realms, parts (or strands as it were) are still intact. This means not all of Mystra is destroyed and there are those still loyal to her, even in our 4th Edition games. For Shal Bal, I felt this blow - the Spellplague - most likely does her in and I feel is quite fitting since even during 1372, Tarl was older and blind by then. She would want to be united with him in the afterlife. As for Kern and Listle, he would only be 33 when the Spellplague hits. I figured he'd have a child with Listle by then (the age is kind of unimportant at this point). Them living in Elturel makes about as much sense as anywhere else, but I'm cool with changing it. Maybe Waterdeep since he saw it first hand AND probably was told a lot of stories by Ren o' the Blade too. **
1386 - 1455. For nearly seventy years, Phlan had endured well under Cvaal and Talaric’s rule. While still under the banner of the Black Fist of Bane, the people came to accept the strict rule and benefits of order that came with it.
1456 - Year of the Mithral Hammer. Cvaal’s son, Talaric Daoran, decided to send loggers into the Quivering Forest, due to a harsh winter, in attempt to gain much needed lumber. This broke Cvaal Daoran’s contract with the fey. Talaric mysteriously disappeared that night, never to be seen again. He was then succeeded by his son, Anivar.
1480 - Year of Deep Water Drifting. Raids by local barbarians on the small settlements of their borders sent waves of refugees to Phlan. Lord Anivar Daoran refused to offer shelter to any more of it’s displaced citizens and forced the city into a lockdown. A group of adventurers uncovered the cause of these raids. Despite being locked out, the were successful in saving Phlan from destruction.
1486 - Year of the Netheril Mountain Scrolls. While overseeing the renovations of the famed Valjevo Castle, Anivar Daoran died in an apparent accident while at the site. Because he had no living heirs, the title of Lord Protector of Phlan fell to the highest ranking soldier in their army - Ector Brahms, Knight of the Black Fist.
Current year for the adventures is 1488 DR.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2021 : 19:18:30
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Here's where the PCs can really start to invest their backstories and find their lot in this campaign. Instead of going from one battle to the next in some mindless series of combat, I really want to emphasize their role in the setting by using Factions. CUrrently, the ones are kinda borning. Order of the Gauntlet is fine...but too robust. It's like "hey, I'm a good-ish guy and a knight, this is the ONLY one that fits" kind of thing. So I'm going to expand on what's been made thus far. Feel free to add other ones or bring up reasons why certain factions would have a vested interest in the workings and doings in Phlan (or the greater Moonsea).
FACTIONS
Many factions operate in the town of Phlan. They vie for power to help control the city to their own ends. Many of these factions are benevolent, seeing to return to the order before the Zhentarim came to power while others are indifferent, so long as they see the coin flow steady. Others tend to keep to the power structure as its been, seeing as the Zhents have controlled the area and populace well in the last several decades. The players will have to decide which faction suits them the most. Below are a list of factions to choose that have prominence within the city and surrounding areas.
- The Order of the Gauntlet. This group of like-minded Knights, paladins, and holy warriors strive to put Phlan back on the path of righteousness. In Phlan, they are compromised mostly of the followers of Tyr and Torm. **The faction here is led by a half-elf paladin of Tyr named Korin Desanea, the great grandson of the famed ‘Hammerseeker’ Kern Desanea. He’s attempting to relocate the Hammer of Tyr, which he believes is buried or held in a secret dimension within Denlor’s Tower.**
**I felt this character I created makes a great link between the old-lore and what's currently going on.**
- The Zhentarim. This group wishes to keep the status-quo in town. Bolstered by Ector’s elevated status, Zhents believe that through his cunning tactics and charismatic ploys he’ll bring peace and prosperity back to Phlan, something that was sorely lacking during Anivar’s time as Lord Protector. While they are ruthless in their schemes, they do hold a loyalty to the city and it’s protection and wouldn’t do anything rash to upset that balance. Their leader is Lord Protector Ector Brahms, a human commander of the Knights of the Black Fist.
- Order of the Silent Shroud. This religious group of Kelemvor followers protect the Western regions of Phlan and oversee the caretaking of the Valhingen Graveyard. They oversee most funeral and burial operations within the city and often preside over such affairs, except for people who have different faiths. So long as the Zhents maintain control and proper governance, the Silent Shroud is ambivalent to their rule. Their leader, Keeper of the Dead and Most Solemn Order of the Silent Shroud is known as Brother **Isen** Keefe (or Brother Keefe).
**I created a first name for him, as one wasn't given**
- The Emerald Enclave. Emerging from the Vilhon Wilds as a prominent organization, the organization focuses on controlling human expansionism, preserving nature in all its forms, and warn against the use of magic on a grand scale. As they pushed beyond those borders after the Spellplague, they saw a wider acceptance in the region, especially amongst those of the Dalelands and northern Moonsea -still wild in many areas. They continually confront the Red Wizards of Thay, the People of the Black Blood, and those who worship Talos - god of Disasters and Destruction. The leader of this organization in Phlan is a half-orc named Buhrell Caah.
- The Harpers. This group of magic users, thieves, tricksters, warriors, and bards do whatever they can to promote the good use of magic, fix the ailing issues plaguing the city and its occupants, and to fight evil wherever it hides. The leader of this cell of Harper Agents doesn’t reveal his name, but is a male half-elf.
- Other Factions. The Realms is full of religious and cultural organizations that can fit well within the city of Phlan or the environs of the Moonsea. The Red Wizards of Thay, the Moonstars (a group who’s fractured from the Harpers), the Lord Alliance, The Radiant Crusade, The Fire Knives, The Black Flame Zealots of Kossuth, or the Purple Dragons of Cormyr. Regardless, there’s a way to incorporate that particular group if there is need of them from the players.
I'd love some good reasons to use Purple Dragon Knights here, or maybe the Fire Knives or even some dwarven groups. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 04:35:12
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Hello Diffan!
Sounds like you have a lot of solid ideas regarding what this campaign is going to be about.
Do you plan for the whole game to be in the city, or do you want the larger Moonsea area involved?
In your mind, what economic value does Phlan produce and who controls it? Do ores from mining operations in the mountains provide the backbone of it's wealth?
With Zhentil Keep destroyed, does Phlan territory extend all the way to the River Tesh? If Zhentil Keep is destroyed it would make sense to me that Hillsfar and Phlan would want to agree on the River Tesh as the border between their territories.
BTW I'm not familiar with 5E FR content at all. These may seem silly questions, but...why does the Zhentirm still exist? Why do the Harpers still exist? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 07:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Diffan!
Sounds like you have a lot of solid ideas regarding what this campaign is going to be about.
Do you plan for the whole game to be in the city, or do you want the larger Moonsea area involved?
Thanks! Well, initially I'm thinking of going 1-10 level with the characters as they perform multiple tasks for the city/region (pretty locally). This will most likely follow -for now- the Tyranny of Dragons AL adventures set here. I "think?" they go to that level, thereabouts. From there, I'm not certain but possibly farther afield in the greater Moonsea area.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
In your mind, what economic value does Phlan produce and who controls it? Do ores from mining operations in the mountains provide the backbone of it's wealth?
Honestly, never thought about it. I'd assume there's agricultural investment in the surrounding areas that are mostly protected. I'd also have to re-read Monument to the Ancents adventure to get a more clearer idea of what's transpiring in the north to contemplate Mining operations there.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
With Zhentil Keep destroyed, does Phlan territory extend all the way to the River Tesh? If Zhentil Keep is destroyed it would make sense to me that Hillsfar and Phlan would want to agree on the River Tesh as the border between their territories.
The current year this campaign is to take place is 1488 DR, however by 1491 Zhentil Keep has been retaken by The Zhentarim (Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, DDEX2-1 to DDEX2-16 Elemental Evil Adventure League series). So we can assume that both Hillsfar and Phlan have agreed to the borders before the Zhent's retaking of their Keep. It's quite possible that the PCs become involved in the helping of retaking the keep as they progress, however that might be too far down the road IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
BTW I'm not familiar with 5E FR content at all. These may seem silly questions, but...why does the Zhentirm still exist? Why do the Harpers still exist?
So, despite being handed their asses by the Shades in 1383 (The year Zhentil Keep was raised), they still held significant strength through the Moonsea (arguably Phlan being the "LEAD" base of operations). Darkhold is still a thing, being controlled by the Zhents and as of 4th Edition, was practically no better than Mercenaries for hire, even going so far as to be solidiers FOR Netheril in many supplements.
In one 4E adventure, the Shades had employed the Zhents to help re-take Saharelgard (better known as Spellgard) from the PCs who've been occupying it in an attempt to capture Lady Saharel and use her prophetic visions in their war with Cormyr/Dalelands/Myth Drannor. Our group knew the Zhents didn't like this, despit being paid good coin, and helped use that friction to have a significant portion of their troops leave the Shades during battle.
So, in essence, the Zhents still exit (Post-Spellplague) as a once-strongarm / mercenary group who'll do jobs no one else wants. They later regain some form of Leadership and become stronger in the late 1400's.
The Harpers, basically swithced enemies from the Zhents to the Shades as the war with Zhents and Shades really showcased just how formattable Netheril were. With Sembia becoming practically a vassal state of Netheril, the Harpers were really needed more than ever to distrupt the Shades (among other evil entities cropping up like the Abolethic Sovereignty, Malaugrym, and Thay). |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 07:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Honestly, never thought about it. I'd assume there's agricultural investment in the surrounding areas that are mostly protected. I'd also have to re-read Monument to the Ancents adventure to get a more clearer idea of what's transpiring in the north to contemplate Mining operations there.
From the 2001 campaign setting book "The Mooonsea holds a huge amount of mineral wealth for those hardy enough to brave peril to win it." Given how many monsters and orcs and stuff that come on down from the north periodically, and how otherwise hostile the climate is, the region should be really unattractive. The mineral wealth gives good reason to profit. Because otherwise, why bother?
It's not like, say, Westgate. Westgate doesn't need any natural resources, because it is in between a whole lot of other places that people want to be. Phlan is not really in between anywhere anyone else wants to be. What I have done in my game is say that there are extensive mining operations in the Dragonspires, raw material is floated down the Stojanow on single use rafts, and that is what most ships come to Phlan for. I have other events going on in my realms that has created a glut in the slave market on the southern side of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Ships come north with a cargo full of slaves and leave with a cargo full of ore. The appetite for slaves is huge both because there is a lot of stuff to extract from the mines, but also because the conditions in the mines are very harsh and not everybody survives.
The most prosperous noble houses are the ones that have territory in the mountains for mining. Those noble houses that are prosperous without mines need to have a lot of agricultural land in order to keep up, with their produce going entirely to Phlan. Depending upon how far to the west you have Phlan's border with Zhentil Keep, it might have enough agricultural land that it doesn't have to import food to survive, though it would probably want to import food that doesn't grow that far north.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The current year this campaign is to take place is 1488 DR, however by 1491 Zhentil Keep has been retaken by The Zhentarim
Out of curiosity, why didn't Phlan or Hillsfar capture the city in the meantime? If either were to incorporate Zhentil Keep into it's respective territory, then their territory would be more secure.
Also, just because the Zhentarim have retaken the Keep doesn't mean they have control over the surrounding territory.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So, in essence, the Zhents still exit (Post-Spellplague) as a once-strongarm / mercenary group who'll do jobs no one else wants. They later regain some form of Leadership and become stronger in the late 1400's.
Okay, but given all the hits the Zhentarium have taken, why do people still want to join it? Say I am a competent midlevel wizard with ambitions to subjugate some land, what does membership in the Zhentarium do other than give me headaches? Because as soon as I open my city to Zhents as a base of operation, some number of them are going to stir up trouble that follows them back to my city. At some point some number of them will try to supplant me as the power of the city. Why not just just create my own coalition that exists independent and separate from the Zhentarium and avoid those headaches?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The Harpers, basically swithced enemies from the Zhents to the Shades
But why should they exist? Harpers generally have only a light presence in many areas. If I am some good minded individual, why not organize around a knight order for my region or city? What resources do the Harpers really bring to bear to help me protect my region or city? What benefits are there to being an ally of the Harpers or joining them properly? |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 07:27:53
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BTW I happen to be working on a Moonsea game myself and I have found myself retooling Mulmaster and the Cloaks of Mulmaster for my realms in 1385.
Would you be interested in my write-up on that? I make some changes to the history of Mulmaster and the Cloaks, which could just as easily be changes they experience over the past hundred years in your game. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 17:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
From the 2001 campaign setting book "The Mooonsea holds a huge amount of mineral wealth for those hardy enough to brave peril to win it." Given how many monsters and orcs and stuff that come on down from the north periodically, and how otherwise hostile the climate is, the region should be really unattractive. The mineral wealth gives good reason to profit. Because otherwise, why bother?
Fair point. I'm assuming that the immediate area surrounding Phlan is well patrolled by the Knights of the Black Hand to keep marauding beasts at bay. The nearby mountains might be harder to control attacks, however, so many they only do quick excursions there to mine and get out (a few days), but that also means monsters could find these areas and make homes in them too.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
It's not like, say, Westgate. Westgate doesn't need any natural resources, because it is in between a whole lot of other places that people want to be. Phlan is not really in between anywhere anyone else wants to be. What I have done in my game is say that there are extensive mining operations in the Dragonspires, raw material is floated down the Stojanow on single use rafts, and that is what most ships come to Phlan for. I have other events going on in my realms that has created a glut in the slave market on the southern side of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Ships come north with a cargo full of slaves and leave with a cargo full of ore. The appetite for slaves is huge both because there is a lot of stuff to extract from the mines, but also because the conditions in the mines are very harsh and not everybody survives.
Phlan, being the mid-way point between Hulburg and the Western Moonsea region might serve as a way-point for ships passing by, especially on the turbulent Moonsea.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
The most prosperous noble houses are the ones that have territory in the mountains for mining. Those noble houses that are prosperous without mines need to have a lot of agricultural land in order to keep up, with their produce going entirely to Phlan. Depending upon how far to the west you have Phlan's border with Zhentil Keep, it might have enough agricultural land that it doesn't have to import food to survive, though it would probably want to import food that doesn't grow that far north.
Certainly going to be stealing this! 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Out of curiosity, why didn't Phlan or Hillsfar capture the city in the meantime? If either were to incorporate Zhentil Keep into it's respective territory, then their territory would be more secure.
Most likely, because they still feared how strong Netheril is and didn't want to have them set their sights on their lands. If Phlan attempted to retake Zhentil Keep, it might have streched out their resources too thin, making them easier targets for Shade attacks. But that's only me guessing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Also, just because the Zhentarim have retaken the Keep doesn't mean they have control over the surrounding territory.
Very true.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Okay, but given all the hits the Zhentarium have taken, why do people still want to join it? Say I am a competent midlevel wizard with ambitions to subjugate some land, what does membership in the Zhentarium do other than give me headaches? Because as soon as I open my city to Zhents as a base of operation, some number of them are going to stir up trouble that follows them back to my city. At some point some number of them will try to supplant me as the power of the city. Why not just just create my own coalition that exists independent and separate from the Zhentarium and avoid those headaches?
Because magic, the creation of spells, and research require materials and the Wizard certainly isn't going to go out and get the materials themselves - that would be dangerous. The Zhentarim provide a plethora of low-level grunts to do the menial tasks and requirements allowing the Wizard to study and research in relative peace. Because it's almost expected that some underling will try to betray them, it's easier to counter when the opportunity arises (or is created as a ruse). Not to mention most Zhent Wizards are right bastards who could care less about the live of said underlings so long as they get the tasks assigned to them done.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
But why should they exist? Harpers generally have only a light presence in many areas. If I am some good minded individual, why not organize around a knight order for my region or city? What resources do the Harpers really bring to bear to help me protect my region or city? What benefits are there to being an ally of the Harpers or joining them properly?
Why does any spy ring exist? Essentially the Harpers are the Forgotten Realms version of the NSA/CIA. They work in the shadows and filter information to people who can get the job done in usually a secretive or non-evasive way (hence, the jobs given to Player Characters). Sure, some Harpers might also lead armies of soldiers and what-not, but more likely their power lies in Secrets gained and the correct people to tell those secrets to. From another setting: why was Varys 'the Spider' so influential in Game of Thrones? Because he knew things and knowledge is power.
So the Harpers work - sort of - in secret to fight against the growing threats to what they hold dear. That is, of course, the preservation of magic and history and to strike a balance between the civilizations of humanity and the natural world. Because the Shades work to restore the Anauroch to it's previous state, it's taken a significant toll on the weather of other areas of the Realms (flooding, droughts, erratic weather, etc) the Harpers want to stop. They also oppose significant threats from both creatures of the Far Realm and natural threats as well as evil cults of Shar, Cyric, Malar, and the oppressive Tyranny of the church of Bane.
So if one really enjoys working in the shadows, using and ferreting information for power, and is of good-natured alignment then the Harpers is something they'd want to join. Not to mention that Harpers also work with churches of a myriad of deities. A Paladin of Helm could also work within the nation of Cormyr as a Highknight AND as a Harper. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 05:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Phlan, being the mid-way point between Hulburg and the Western Moonsea region might serve as a way-point for ships passing by, especially on the turbulent Moonsea.
Thentia is a better mid-way point for that route. The Moonsea is a deadend on the sea lanes and Phlan is almost at the farthest end of the dead end. For ships traveling to Zhentil Keep coming out of the Strait of Lis, Thentia or Hillsfar would both be a shorter distance for the ship to travel. Yes, ships could choose to stop there instead, but that is not an attribute unique to Phlan. Melvaunt and Thentia offer such harbors as well. the only advantage that Phlan has over melvaunt and Thentia is that with it's river valley and easy access to the mines in the mountains, it should provide more purpose to go there.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Certainly going to be stealing this!
Groovy
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Most likely, because they still feared how strong Netheril is and didn't want to have them set their sights on their lands. If Phlan attempted to retake Zhentil Keep, it might have streched out their resources too thin, making them easier targets for Shade attacks.
Where are the Shade in relation to the Moonsea? What are their resources? If they are all the way in the Anauroch, then why should they care?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Because magic, the creation of spells, and research require materials and the Wizard certainly isn't going to go out and get the materials themselves - that would be dangerous. The Zhentarim provide a plethora of low-level grunts to do the menial tasks and requirements allowing the Wizard to study and research in relative peace. Because it's almost expected that some underling will try to betray them, it's easier to counter when the opportunity arises (or is created as a ruse).
I should imagine that a person doesn't have to be a mage to gather spell components. The components would have a market value and i could see various industrious merchants wouldn't mind making a a pretty piece of coin by cornering the market in certain spell components. Basically, the marketplace should take care of the production and distribution of spell components.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Why does any spy ring exist? Essentially the Harpers are the Forgotten Realms version of the NSA/CIA.
The NSA/CIA work for a government, with a defined territory, lots of resources, and is a lot more organized than the Harpers are portrayed as being. Spy rings generally have a national funding and a national purpose.
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Originally posted by Diffan
From another setting: why was Varys 'the Spider' so influential in Game of Thrones? Because he knew things and knowledge is power.
I stopped reading the books halfway through book 4 when I found out the author was "Wheel of Time'ing it. I read a bit of his wiki. Okay, he was the spymaster for a government that wielded real power to impose a status quo to its liking. He wasn't operating in the wilderness as an extra government organization that was more or less opposed to most governments. He had a perspective on what the political landscape should look like and that creates a hierarchy of priorities. I cannot determine what the hierarchy of priorities of the harpers ever were.
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Originally posted by Diffan
and to strike a balance between the civilizations of humanity and the natural world.
I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. It is such a nebulous concept. Basically there is no objective standard to judge their goals by and so in essence the Harpers are invested in eternal proxy conflicts. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2021 : 15:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Thentia is a better mid-way point for that route. The Moonsea is a deadend on the sea lanes and Phlan is almost at the farthest end of the dead end. For ships traveling to Zhentil Keep coming out of the Strait of Lis, Thentia or Hillsfar would both be a shorter distance for the ship to travel. Yes, ships could choose to stop there instead, but that is not an attribute unique to Phlan. Melvaunt and Thentia offer such harbors as well. the only advantage that Phlan has over melvaunt and Thentia is that with it's river valley and easy access to the mines in the mountains, it should provide more purpose to go there.
Maybe you'd be ok with sailing across open swaths of the Moonsea without land in sight, personally I wouldn't and especially in certain months of the year. If I remember from the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy, it was safer to sail within sight of land in the colder months. I'll have to go re-read that series.
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Originally posted by Kelcimer
Where are the Shade in relation to the Moonsea? What are their resources? If they are all the way in the Anauroch, then why should they care?
Because they're bent on domination of the western half of Faerûn. They have flying cities and archmages. I'd assume they're formattable if they can keep a conflict going on 3 of their borders and not lose (The Western Heartlands, Cormyr to the south, and the Dalelands/Cormanthyr the the east) for over a century and not only maintain it for that long but take over Sembia essentially (which is their proxy state).
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Originally posted by Kelcimer
I should imagine that a person doesn't have to be a mage to gather spell components. The components would have a market value and i could see various industrious merchants wouldn't mind making a a pretty piece of coin by cornering the market in certain spell components. Basically, the marketplace should take care of the production and distribution of spell components.
Ew, the channels of commerce? What are we, peasants? Why would I do that when you can literally just take it through power, coercion, and strength of arms? No haggling or middleman or need to use resources like money for those things when I can send out a couple of thugs to just take it for me. Also, some spell components might be restricted or even banned, depending on where you are. You think it's a simple thing to go to the store and get 500gp worth of Onyx Stones and NOT have someone from the War Wizards of Cormyr raise an eye-brow? That's how (in some editions) Undead are created.
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Originally posted by Kelcimer
The NSA/CIA work for a government, with a defined territory, lots of resources, and is a lot more organized than the Harpers are portrayed as being. Spy rings generally have a national funding and a national purpose.
Maybe a government agency was a bad comparison. I don't really like trying to make Earth-based comparisons simply because the two don't really relate at all. The Realms certainly isn't Medieval/Renaissance Earth + Magic, and frankly no Fantasy world is like that (thankfully). Best I can think of is a continent wide organization loosely regulated with cells of operations in certain areas. They have a base of operations - as of 1480's/1490's DR - but it's much like it was pre-Spellplague. Their purpose is, to quote Forgotten Realms Wiki:
"promoting good, preserving history (including art and music of old), and maintaining a balance between civilization and nature by keeping kingdoms small and the destruction of animal and plant life to a minimum. They considered the elven empire of Myth Drannor shortly before its fall to be the pinnacle of civilized history and strove to recreate the world in that image."
So they can't be just one nation and undertake this, it has to be more multi-national in scope.
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Originally posted by Diffan
From another setting: why was Varys 'the Spider' so influential in Game of Thrones? Because he knew things and knowledge is power.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
I stopped reading the books halfway through book 4 when I found out the author was "Wheel of Time'ing it. I read a bit of his wiki. Okay, he was the spymaster for a government that wielded real power to impose a status quo to its liking. He wasn't operating in the wilderness as an extra government organization that was more or less opposed to most governments. He had a perspective on what the political landscape should look like and that creates a hierarchy of priorities. I cannot determine what the hierarchy of priorities of the harpers ever were.
I meant his methods are similar, not intentions.
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Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
and to strike a balance between the civilizations of humanity and the natural world.
I have no idea what that is even supposed to mean. It is such a nebulous concept. Basically there is no objective standard to judge their goals by and so in essence the Harpers are invested in eternal proxy conflicts.
To quote Elminster from, I believe, the Shandril saga:
"A Harper holds peaceful sharing of the lands above all other goals.
"By sharing, we mean all the races living in and under the land, where each prefers to live, trading together where desire and need stir them to, and respecting each other's holds and ways—without the daily bloodletting that all too often holds sway in the Realms today."
So when creatures (orcs, goblins, dragons, beholders, Sharn, Mind Flayers, Aboleths); organizations (the Red Wizards/Szass Tam, the Shades, the Zhentarim, the churh of Shar - Cyric - Bane, the Wearers of Purple, the Cult of the Dragon, etc); and Nations (the government of Amn, Calimshan, and old Hillsfar) rise up to take more than they should or oppress people, or exploit people, or attempt to claim more natural surrounds that are already home to many indigenous creature then usually the Harpers attempt to disrupt that. |
Edited by - Diffan on 03 Sep 2021 15:56:39 |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 04:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Maybe you'd be ok with sailing across open swaths of the Moonsea without land in sight, personally I wouldn't and especially in certain months of the year. If I remember from the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy, it was safer to sail within sight of land in the colder months.
Sailing within line of sight of the coast is definitely safer, if you don't know the stars, trade winds, currents etc. But if you know the stars, trade winds, and currents, then being out of sight of land isn't a problem. I'd say the weather of the Moonsea is a DM's call. It's what you want it to be.
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Originally posted by Diffan Because they're bent on domination of the western half of Faerûn. They have flying cities and archmages. I'd assume they're formattable if they can keep a conflict going on 3 of their borders and not lose (The Western Heartlands, Cormyr to the south, and the Dalelands/Cormanthyr the the east) for over a century and not only maintain it for that long but take over Sembia essentially (which is their proxy state).
If the Shades are fighting on three fronts, then that means they are busy. They should have followed the path of most rulers of history, which is grab what you can, when you can. If Hillsfar and Phlan had successfully divided the Zhent lands between them, then they would both be wealthier and in a better position to fight back should the Shades come looking. If the Shades do decide to dedicate resources to fighting Hillsfar and Phlan, then that is resources they are not allocating to their other fronts. If I were a diplomat from other lands, this is exactly what I would I would suggest to Hillsfar and Phlan. Oh and by the way, anything I could do to help?
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Originally posted by Diffan Ew, the channels of commerce? What are we, peasants?
Wizards shouldn't be dumb. Nor should they be uniformly arrogant to the point of stupidity.
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Originally posted by Diffan Why would I do that when you can literally just take it through power, coercion, and strength of arms?
Because there is such a thing as opportunity cost and discouraging supply. Every minute he is out gathering spell components that is time he couldn't be devoting to more important matters. And if he just raids people who have a bunch of any giving spell component periodically, then he discourages them from gathering the very thing he needs. You know, don't shit where you eat.
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Originally posted by Diffan Also, some spell components might be restricted or even banned, depending on where you are. You think it's a simple thing to go to the store and get 500gp worth of Onyx Stones and NOT have someone from the War Wizards of Cormyr raise an eye-brow? That's how (in some editions) Undead are created.
That's fair. But there'd be a lot of materials that could be gained at little cost of time through the free market.
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Originally posted by Diffan Their purpose is, to quote Forgotten Realms Wiki: "promoting good, preserving history (including art and music of old), and maintaining a balance between civilization and nature by keeping kingdoms small and the destruction of animal and plant life to a minimum. They considered the elven empire of Myth Drannor shortly before its fall to be the pinnacle of civilized history and strove to recreate the world in that image."
This seems unworkable. It basically requires constant intervention on the part of the Harpers. There are no limits.
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Originally posted by Diffan They work in the shadows and filter information to people who can get the job done in usually a secretive or non-evasive way (hence, the jobs given to Player Characters). Sure, some Harpers might also lead armies of soldiers and what-not, but more likely their power lies in Secrets gained and the correct people to tell those secrets to. From another setting: why was Varys 'the Spider' so influential in Game of Thrones? Because he knew things and knowledge is power.
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Originally posted by Diffan I meant his methods are similar, not intentions.
I don't think the intentions matter here. There are three categories of information: that which will help you towards your goals, that which is an obstacle between you and your goal and the third category is the largest category of all, that which is irrelevant. If you don't clearly define your goals, then you have no way to distinguish between the three catagories of information and will definitely engage in mission creep.
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Originally posted by Diffan "A Harper holds peaceful sharing of the lands above all other goals. "By sharing, we mean all the races living in and under the land, where each prefers to live, trading together where desire and need stir them to, and respecting each other's holds and ways—without the daily bloodletting that all too often holds sway in the Realms today."
Oh. This is basically a Wilsonian League of Free Nations unworkable.
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Originally posted by Diffan So when creatures [...]; organizations [...]; and Nations [...] rise up to take more than they should or oppress people, or exploit people, or attempt to claim more natural surrounds that are already home to many indigenous creature then usually the Harpers attempt to disrupt that.
Perhaps the worst word in that is "should". Should according to whose lights? A local lord who is beset by orcs. These orcs have been a thorn in his families side for the past hundred years. So he burns them out and claims their mountain for his own, so that no body else inhabits it to threaten his family and his people. That guy in the eyes of the Harpers is a bad guy who needs to let the untrustworthy orcs retake the mountain. Basically the Harpers are an unelected UN that considers themselves to be the masters of the Faerun. They "care" aboud "fairness", but fairness according to who/ everyone will have a different opinion about that. Functionally the Harpers are uninterested in peace and they certainly are not peaceful. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 05:57:46
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| BTW is the extended conversation on the Harpers helpful at all towards your game prep? If it isn't, then I would be more than happy to talk about other factions. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 18:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Maybe you'd be ok with sailing across open swaths of the Moonsea without land in sight, personally I wouldn't and especially in certain months of the year. If I remember from the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy, it was safer to sail within sight of land in the colder months.
Sailing within line of sight of the coast is definitely safer, if you don't know the stars, trade winds, currents etc. But if you know the stars, trade winds, and currents, then being out of sight of land isn't a problem. I'd say the weather of the Moonsea is a DM's call. It's what you want it to be.
The weather certainly isn't the only issue in the Moonsea. Things like Monsters usually hamper sea travel too.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Because they're bent on domination of the western half of Faerûn. They have flying cities and archmages. I'd assume they're formattable if they can keep a conflict going on 3 of their borders and not lose (The Western Heartlands, Cormyr to the south, and the Dalelands/Cormanthyr the the east) for over a century and not only maintain it for that long but take over Sembia essentially (which is their proxy state).
If the Shades are fighting on three fronts, then that means they are busy. They should have followed the path of most rulers of history, which is grab what you can, when you can.
Why would they follow in similar form from world they don't know about? Or why our history would have any bearing at all? The two couldn't possibly be comparable. The Realms isn't medieval Earth + Magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
If Hillsfar and Phlan had successfully divided the Zhent lands between them, then they would both be wealthier and in a better position to fight back should the Shades come looking. If the Shades do decide to dedicate resources to fighting Hillsfar and Phlan, then that is resources they are not allocating to their other fronts. If I were a diplomat from other lands, this is exactly what I would I would suggest to Hillsfar and Phlan. Oh and by the way, anything I could do to help?
I don't know if any such arrangement would be possible between the two, not knowing their relationship well enough to think they'd come to a compromise on splitting the resources of that place. Phlan, being ruled BY a Zhent could make the claim that its all theirs by right of association to that organization.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Ew, the channels of commerce? What are we, peasants?
Wizards shouldn't be dumb. Nor should they be uniformly arrogant to the point of stupidity.
Im talking about Evil Wizards, and on small things, maybe. I wouldn't expect them to go through proper channels for harder to aquire items.
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Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Why would I do that when you can literally just take it through power, coercion, and strength of arms?
Because there is such a thing as opportunity cost and discouraging supply. Every minute he is out gathering spell components that is time he couldn't be devoting to more important matters. And if he just raids people who have a bunch of any giving spell component periodically, then he discourages them from gathering the very thing he needs. You know, don't shit where you eat.
Well "he" wouldn't be doing anything, it would most likely be some working for him. Also, you're not doing this for common easy to aquire items, usually ones that have a more lucrative market, ones that people can't afford NOT to turn a profit on.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Also, some spell components might be restricted or even banned, depending on where you are. You think it's a simple thing to go to the store and get 500gp worth of Onyx Stones and NOT have someone from the War Wizards of Cormyr raise an eye-brow? That's how (in some editions) Undead are created.
That's fair. But there'd be a lot of materials that could be gained at little cost of time through the free market.
Most likely he can have them created at cost in/around his area. I'm thinking things more costly.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Their purpose is, to quote Forgotten Realms Wiki: "promoting good, preserving history (including art and music of old), and maintaining a balance between civilization and nature by keeping kingdoms small and the destruction of animal and plant life to a minimum. They considered the elven empire of Myth Drannor shortly before its fall to be the pinnacle of civilized history and strove to recreate the world in that image."
This seems unworkable. It basically requires constant intervention on the part of the Harpers. There are no limits.
I didn't write it so....*shrugs*
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan "A Harper holds peaceful sharing of the lands above all other goals. "By sharing, we mean all the races living in and under the land, where each prefers to live, trading together where desire and need stir them to, and respecting each other's holds and ways—without the daily bloodletting that all too often holds sway in the Realms today."
Oh. This is basically a Wilsonian League of Free Nations unworkable.
Ok? Again, didn't write or create it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan So when creatures [...]; organizations [...]; and Nations [...] rise up to take more than they should or oppress people, or exploit people, or attempt to claim more natural surrounds that are already home to many indigenous creature then usually the Harpers attempt to disrupt that.
Perhaps the worst word in that is "should". Should according to whose lights? A local lord who is beset by orcs. These orcs have been a thorn in his families side for the past hundred years. So he burns them out and claims their mountain for his own, so that no body else inhabits it to threaten his family and his people. That guy in the eyes of the Harpers is a bad guy who needs to let the untrustworthy orcs retake the mountain. Basically the Harpers are an unelected UN that considers themselves to be the masters of the Faerun. They "care" aboud "fairness", but fairness according to who/ everyone will have a different opinion about that. Functionally the Harpers are uninterested in peace and they certainly are not peaceful.
Why are they a horn in his side? Do they pillage and attack his people? Do they disrupt his trade? Do they take his natural resources? Can they be reasoned with? Has he tried treaties? Has he tried Diplomacy to divide resources evenly.
In this scenario, both sides might be bad. The orcs attack and pillage and disrupt his Barony BUT only because he's invaded their surroundings and taken their resources. A Harper probably wouldn't jump to one's side immediately and most likely look to a solution that benefits both. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
BTW is the extended conversation on the Harpers helpful at all towards your game prep? If it isn't, then I would be more than happy to talk about other factions.
They're just one faction of many that's open to PCs to become a part of. The Order of the Gauntlet is another, however their goal is far more targeted (remove Zhent control, find the Hammer of Tyr, reinstate the church of Tyr - and by extention, the Triad - as the city's main religious center). |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 01:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan The weather certainly isn't the only issue in the Moonsea. Things like Monsters usually hamper sea travel too.
Fair point. Depends upon how significant the DM wants to make monster attacks. If a lot and the monsters seek out sea lanes after the sea lanes shift, then yes, I agree.
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Originally posted by Diffan Why would they follow in similar form from world they don't know about? Or why our history would have any bearing at all? The two couldn't possibly be comparable. The Realms isn't medieval Earth + Magic.
We are talking about the Zhentarium here. Most evil wizards in the organization are human. We know how human nature works.
As far as how non-human are, who is to say that they should be different? A lot of human nature can be seen studies of various animals.
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Originally posted by Diffan I don't know if any such arrangement would be possible between the two, not knowing their relationship well enough to think they'd come to a compromise on splitting the resources of that place. Phlan, being ruled BY a Zhent could make the claim that its all theirs by right of association to that organization.
This is where the real politics comes into play. Even if the two contires don’t like enough other, that doesn’t mean their rulers won’t hash out a deal. If they are both so afraid of the Shades to extending resources to claim those lands, then being able to point that they have a common enemy shouldn’t be a hard idea to articulate.
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Originally posted by Diffan
Im talking about Evil Wizards, and on small things, maybe. I wouldn't expect them to go through proper channels for harder to aquire items.
If they can get certain spell components for reasonable prices, in bulk, and without attracting attention then they will. For harder to aquire stuff and for things that would attract undue attention, then yes, I agree.
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Originally posted by Diffan In this scenario, both sides might be bad. The orcs attack and pillage and disrupt his Barony BUT only because he's invaded their surroundings and taken their resources. A Harper probably wouldn't jump to one's side immediately and most likely look to a solution that benefits both.
But the rub is when you can’t get both sides to come to agreement. When push comes to shove, whose side are they going to land on?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Ok? Again, didn't write or create it.
Okay, cool. So the fundamental dilemma of running the Harpers is either:
A) Following their ideology to its logical conclusion and having them get into a lot of fights they shouldn’t and actually being bad guys in a lot of instances
B) Change the Harpers so that they can actually fulfill the game role that they are supposed to be accomplishing.
Remember, this is your Faerun, so you can change what events occurred in the past hundred years to your liking.
If I was a Master Harper in charge of the organization, then all of my energies would be focused on the Shades. If the Shades experience a breakout success on any of their fronts, then that makes them a lot harder to oppose in the future. All other conflicts can be placed on the back burner.
Think of it like the Cold War. All events were subsumed by the conflict. If the Shades as as bad as all that, then a similiar dynamic would make sense.
So what do Harpers on the Moonsea want for the Moonsea? I should think that the most sensible thing for the harpers to do is to actually retake Zhentil Keep for themselves and to control the River Tesh. How cool would that be? If they don’t retake it and gain control of it, then somebody else will. And really, they have over a hundred years of trying to act all subtle like, and don’t really have a lot to show for it. They could rename it the City of Tesh.
And how angry would the Zhentarium be at the city of their founding being run by Harpers? Of course that is if the Harper’s let it be known that they are the ones ruling Tesh. It could be a charsimatic barbarian hero who leads it. He is secretly a haper, maybe even a Master Harper himself.
So what would the purpose be of the cell of Harpers be in Phlan? To make sure that Tesh has as much breathing room to grow as strong as possible.
Any of that sound good? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 23:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan The weather certainly isn't the only issue in the Moonsea. Things like Monsters usually hamper sea travel too.
Fair point. Depends upon how significant the DM wants to make monster attacks. If a lot and the monsters seek out sea lanes after the sea lanes shift, then yes, I agree.
I'm not sure how much sea travel is going to be prevalent in this particular campaign. Most of the issues revolve around the city itself and the machinations of the Cult of the Dragon. As it follows the Tyranny of Dragons story arc, i assume it goes a bit further afield, but probably not into other territories. If I do use it, i'll most likely follow what % random monster attacks occur.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan Why would they follow in similar form from world they don't know about? Or why our history would have any bearing at all? The two couldn't possibly be comparable. The Realms isn't medieval Earth + Magic.
We are talking about the Zhentarium here. Most evil wizards in the organization are human. We know how human nature works.
As far as how non-human are, who is to say that they should be different? A lot of human nature can be seen studies of various animals.
We know how "OUR" nature works, but I wouldn't presume to assume that the things we've dealt with as a species is going to align with that of humans of a setting where magic and monsters are literal things. Even in 14th-15th century Forgotten Realms Humans are hunted by beasts, monsters, and horrors (creatures of the Far Realm) that we'd lose our minds over.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan I don't know if any such arrangement would be possible between the two, not knowing their relationship well enough to think they'd come to a compromise on splitting the resources of that place. Phlan, being ruled BY a Zhent could make the claim that its all theirs by right of association to that organization.
This is where the real politics comes into play. Even if the two countries don’t like enough other, that doesn’t mean their rulers won’t hash out a deal. If they are both so afraid of the Shades to extending resources to claim those lands, then being able to point that they have a common enemy shouldn’t be a hard idea to articulate.
Most likely in this campaign, I'm going to have both Phlan and Hillsfar split the region up as much as they can while still being able to protect it from the normal humanoid raiders that are common in this region. Zhentil Keep and the immediate surroundings haven't been restored or taken over yet by any one group (including the Shades).
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Im talking about Evil Wizards, and on small things, maybe. I wouldn't expect them to go through proper channels for harder to aquire items.
If they can get certain spell components for reasonable prices, in bulk, and without attracting attention then they will. For harder to aquire stuff and for things that would attract undue attention, then yes, I agree.
Honestly, I don't see any of the PCs even taking up a point of being a Zhent unless they're going for that "We're bad, but a necessity" viewpoint. One might do it, just to be different but I think I can work to have their interest align with others - even if it's just out of common foes like the Cult of the Dragon.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan In this scenario, both sides might be bad. The orcs attack and pillage and disrupt his Barony BUT only because he's invaded their surroundings and taken their resources. A Harper probably wouldn't jump to one's side immediately and most likely look to a solution that benefits both.
But the rub is when you can’t get both sides to come to agreement. When push comes to shove, whose side are they going to land on?
For the Harper's perspective, I really don't know? Sounds like a good episode from Star Trek: The Next Generation lol. I guess, if push came to shove it would come down to who escalated the issues initially. If the Baron's family was the aggressor and pushed into Orc territory first then the Harpers would probably be willing to aid - even regretfully so - the Orcs as their way of life was impeded first.
To accomplish this, well maybe the Baron has an accident? Definitely not "good" along the Alignment scale for sure, but you try to make the best outcome of the worst situation. Doesn't mean he need to be killed, but at least disposed of publicly for someone with a more level-head. But that's how "I'd" approach the situation as a Harper looking for a long term solution to the fighting and bloodshed. If I were a member of the Order of the Gauntlet, I'd probably side with the Baron in order to preserve "normal" Civilization against the monstrous humanoids and help them relocate. Still sounds bad, but it is what it is.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Ok? Again, didn't write or create it.
Okay, cool. So the fundamental dilemma of running the Harpers is either:
A) Following their ideology to its logical conclusion and having them get into a lot of fights they shouldn’t and actually being bad guys in a lot of instances
B) Change the Harpers so that they can actually fulfill the game role that they are supposed to be accomplishing.
Remember, this is your Faerun, so you can change what events occurred in the past hundred years to your liking.
I still think that their intentions are good and side with what's right from a certain point of view. To orcs, I'm sure humans and elves and dwarves are the villains and they don't paint themselves as evil monsters. They're simply doing what they believe is what is destined to them by the glory of Gruumsh.
Are they meddlers? Yes. Can they be wrong or DO something we consider "wrong" even if the means justify the ends? Yes. In their eyes, they trying to maintain that balance, so it goes hand in hand that some of the positions they take piss off leaders of nations who simply want what's best for their own people. A town leader that needs firewood from the nearby forest usually doesn't ask the woodland folk if that's ok, they just go and take lumber from there. Are the Harpers going to stop them? Probably. Will bloodshed occur? Maybe. Is that OK? To the Harpers, the answer is yes - you can't just willy-nilly take advantage of natural resources just because you can and not expect any recourse. It also doesn't necessarily mean the town leader is bad either, he's simply a good guy looking out for the people who put him there.
The thing is, this is all very Gray-area in terms of morality. It's not cut-and-dry Evil vs. Good or Law vs. Chaos. It's delicate, which I feel makes it more believable.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
If I was a Master Harper in charge of the organization, then all of my energies would be focused on the Shades. If the Shades experience a breakout success on any of their fronts, then that makes them a lot harder to oppose in the future. All other conflicts can be placed on the back burner.
Think of it like the Cold War. All events were subsumed by the conflict. If the Shades as as bad as all that, then a similiar dynamic would make sense.
The number one issue is that they don't have any real centralized leadership. No one "Big" Leader that orders the lesser cells on operations. Many times Hapers work along or along with other organizations and religions. It's quite possible there are Harpers among the ranks of Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Knights of Elturel, and even the Lords of Waterdeep. 5th Edition factions pages states that: the Harpers are a grassroots, decentralized group and it's members act with near-autonomy. They have "cells" and lone operatives throughout Faerûn.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
So what do Harpers on the Moonsea want for the Moonsea? I should think that the most sensible thing for the harpers to do is to actually retake Zhentil Keep for themselves and to control the River Tesh. How cool would that be? If they don’t retake it and gain control of it, then somebody else will. And really, they have over a hundred years of trying to act all subtle like, and don’t really have a lot to show for it. They could rename it the City of Tesh.
The issue with that is that it sort of goes against their idea of operating in the shadows. Controlling areas and gaining a seat of power in a region really isn't their thing. Heck one of their creeds is that Too much Power leads to corruption. How'd that look if they actively took over a large keep and the surroundings to control a river?
I think, if their idea was to help any of the oppressed in the region of Phlan, they'd want to cut down on how powerful the Zhentarim rule there is in the city. While the Lord Protector before Ector was a sap who died "mysteriously", Ector seems to be at least a bit more empathetic towards the well-being of those he has power over. Still, he's a Zhent and most likely pays lip-service to Bane in some regards.
Their whole concept is to covertly promote fairness and equality and act openly only as a last resort. I do sort of like this concept in that it allows players a certain amount of autonomy in their actions.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
And how angry would the Zhentarium be at the city of their founding being run by Harpers? Of course that is if the Harper’s let it be known that they are the ones ruling Tesh. It could be a charsimatic barbarian hero who leads it. He is secretly a haper, maybe even a Master Harper himself.
Now, I could see the Harpers helping another group re-take the city and rebuild it, working in concert with them but letting them take the resources and fame of reestablishing Zhentil Keep as a new town of hope. The Harpers might have been suspected in aiding them, but no one would know really, for certain if they were. Then the Harpers could keep a good eye out for anyone in this new bastion who would want to take too much power/resources from the region.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
So what would the purpose be of the cell of Harpers be in Phlan? To make sure that Tesh has as much breathing room to grow as strong as possible.
Any of that sound good?
For one, oppose the Cult of the Dragon (for which this seriers of smal adventures is centered around) and their machinations in having the region be claimed by a very angry and evil Green Dragon. Secondary mission would be to supplant the ruler of Phlan with someone who 1) isn't a member of the Zhentarim, even if their notions have mostly been honorable. Further, they'd want to make sure peace resides with the folks of Phlan and the neighboring Quivering Forest, as well as with any close city-states (Melvaunt, Hillsfar, and possibly re-formed Zhentil Keep). Lastly, see that someone noble and good takes over/revitalizes Zhentil Keep.
So yes, this definitely does help in determining what the factions would like to do in the region and how that might have some friction between the PCs should they work for rivaling Factions. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 00:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan So yes, this definitely does help in determining what the factions would like to do in the region and how that might have some friction between the PCs should they work for rivaling Factions.
Cool!
So the Order of the Gauntlet...I see the are supposed to operate much more openly than a lot of your factions and thus need more in the way of popular support. How many nobles houses, roughly, does Phlan have? And how many of them would support the Order of the Gauntlet's vision for Phlan?
They would also seem to be good candidates to retake Zhentil Keep.
Meanwhile, what are the orcs of Thar doing?
Are they still a bunch of squabbling tribes like they were a hundred years ago?
If I were an charismatic and intelligent orc leader who wanted to retake the coast from the humans, I'd want to fully embrace half-orcs as part of the big orc tribe, so that half-orcs in the region would see that they have more of a place in orc society than they do in human society. This is important so as to have network of loyal half-orc agents in Phlan, Melvaunt, and Thentia. There are really three priorities for such agents: 1) weaken the cities by promoting division and factionalism, 2) weaken the physical defenses by digging tunnels under the ground for small forces of orcs to come through, and 3) being on in the inside to open gates and that sort of thing.
There is also the idea of them moving into the Tesh River Valley and taking Zhentil Keep, renaming it, and making it a city for orcs and half-orcs. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 00:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan So yes, this definitely does help in determining what the factions would like to do in the region and how that might have some friction between the PCs should they work for rivaling Factions.
Cool!
So the Order of the Gauntlet...I see they are supposed to operate much more openly than a lot of your factions and thus need more in the way of popular support. How many nobles houses, roughly, does Phlan have? And how many of them would support the Order of the Gauntlet's vision for Phlan?
That's a good question, and one I don't really have an answer to. It is my understanding that because Phlan is ruled by one individual - Ector Brahams, that there really isn't much in the way of nobility in the city. At least, not much from what I've read. Now, that could be changed - absolutely - and that would add another layer to the power shifts in the city.
Say, there's 2-3 major noble houses and 4-6 lesser noble houses (ones that aren't as economically buffeted). I'd say that at least one of the noble houses used to venerate Tyr, and possibly does so again or more likely venerate the Triad in total. So they'd be open for a change - but mostly because one of the other noble houses uses unscrupulous means of gaining power and wealth (maybe another avenue to how the previous Lord Protector died?). This other noble house likes the status-quo because the Zhents rarely interfere with their plans because some are easily bought. I'd have to sit down and design/create a few shy of a dozen noble houses for this to be a thing.
Most likely the lesser houses work in tandem with larger ones, some side with the Zhents, others not so much.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
They would also seem to be good candidates to retake Zhentil Keep.
An interesting proposal. In Canon, Zhentil Keep is restored by - I believe - the Zhents so this is a great opportunity for the PCs to become involved in that story down the road. Not to mention that noble houses would gain a lot from it's reclamation (either for or against Zhentarim rule).
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Meanwhile, what are the orcs of Thar doing?
Are they still a bunch of squabbling tribes like they were a hundred years ago?
If I were an charismatic and intelligent orc leader who wanted to retake the coast from the humans, I'd want to fully embrace half-orcs as part of the big orc tribe, so that half-orcs in the region would see that they have more of a place in orc society than they do in human society. This is important so as to have network of loyal half-orc agents in Phlan, Melvaunt, and Thentia. There are really three priorities for such agents: 1) weaken the cities by promoting division and factionalism, 2) weaken the physical defenses by digging tunnels under the ground for small forces of orcs to come through, and 3) being on in the inside to open gates and that sort of thing.
That's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought too much about how the Orcs of Thar would play into this campaign. These are some good ideas. Thanks. I'd assume that this would play out over a longer period, often raiding and what not as minor distractions from their more nefarious intent. I wouldn've have put them as this intelligent though, unless the Orcs of Thar aren't your common garden variety?
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
There is also the idea of them moving into the Tesh River Valley and taking Zhentil Keep, renaming it, and making it a city for orcs and half-orcs.
Just one more group/Factions vying for power in the vaccume that the shades created. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2021 : 02:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That's a good question, and one I don't really have an answer to. It is my understanding that because Phlan is ruled by one individual - Ector Brahams, that there really isn't much in the way of nobility in the city.
Whether there the "nobles" or are CALLED nobles is beside the point. Rule by one person never exists in the practical sense. It is never one person that rules, but a group of people. Ector would have a number of people who benefit by him being in charge. Oligarchy is the most common form of government in all of history and still the most common form of government today.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
At least, not much from what I've read. Now, that could be changed - absolutely - and that would add another layer to the power shifts in the city.
Cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So they'd be open for a change - but mostly because one of the other noble houses uses unscrupulous means of gaining power and wealth (maybe another avenue to how the previous Lord Protector died?). This other noble house likes the status-quo because the Zhents rarely interfere with their plans because some are easily bought. I'd have to sit down and design/create a few shy of a dozen noble houses for this to be a thing. Most likely the lesser houses work in tandem with larger ones, some side with the Zhents, others not so much.
I generally like to say that there are X number major noble house, Y number of houses in mid-tier strength and then leave an unspecified number of lesser houses. The basic way of ensuring they have troops is the nobles would rent out the land to knights who would then rent out the land to peasants. The more land a noble has the more people he can elevate to knights to sub-administrate the land. Each divided piece of land would pay the lord in produce, livestock, or gold; and also men to serve the lord when he needs to muster troops.
In this fantasy setting, some number of lords might have more relative power than the "king", because they keep their lands and borders secure from monsters and the like.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan An interesting proposal. In Canon, Zhentil Keep is restored by - I believe - the Zhents so this is a great opportunity for the PCs to become involved in that story down the road. Not to mention that noble houses would gain a lot from it's reclamation (either for or against Zhentarim rule).
You could have some nobles on the Western border of Phlan independently decide that they will reclaim Zhentil Keep for themselves. Muster the troops and do so. Maybe they rename it West Phlan. As West Phlan becomes more prosperous and those nobles can field more and more troops, then they could try a coup in Phlan, or try to separate from Phlan. Push come to shove.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
That's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought too much about how the Orcs of Thar would play into this campaign. These are some good ideas. Thanks. I'd assume that this would play out over a longer period, often raiding and what not as minor distractions from their more nefarious intent. I wouldn've have put them as this intelligent though, unless the Orcs of Thar aren't your common garden variety?
In my own game, I had a female player create the character Joan of Orc. She is a half-orc fighter who spoke of half-orcs being the superior race, combining the best of both human and orc. Scalped and left for dead by the the dwarf Dorn the Orc Slayer, she since gathered a small following of several hundred half-orcs prior to the Orc War. During the Orc War she won acclaim and gathered more half-orcs to her banner. Immediately after the Orc War she took her people to settle on the north shore of the Moonsea east of Hulberg and founded the half-orc settlement of Gardenel. The settlement got going. Word spread. Over the course of a decade more half-orcs drifted to Gardenel. Nearby Hulberg took exception to such a large community of half-orcs and hired mercenaries to clear them out. This gradually escalated. Joan of Orc reached out to various orc tribes in eastern Thar and formed a orc/half-orc coalition that conquered Hulberg. Knowing that it is only a matter of time before other orc-phobic human settlements attack them, Joan is sending out feelers to the other orc tribes of Thar to discuss what most be done to solve the problems associated with hostile human jealous of the new half orc lead nation of Gardenel. Some orc chief's don't like the idea of being lead by a half-orc, but others say, let's not complain about winning! Maybe it is time for old orcs to learn new tricks. [/quote] |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 05:49:04
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Hello Diffan!
How goes the game prep? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2021 : 13:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Diffan!
How goes the game prep?
To be honest, kind of slow. Currently I'm a player in our group's 5th Edition Ravenloft: Curse of Strahd campaign and....the more I continually play 5E the less I really want to use that system to DM it. We did start up something with 5E when our DM couldn't make a session and I started to run In Scarlet Flames (a free 5e adventure that has Magic: the Gathering characters jump into the Realms) as a quick -jump into the action- adventure when I had zero Prep and....meh?
So now I'm sort of at a Crossroads with what I want to do. I can continue with the idea of using 5e and the Tyranny of Dragons set of adventures in Phlan/Moonsea like I had originally planned OR....
Option 2: Use the system that I'm kind of falling in love with - 13th Age - set in Cormyr. This adventure deals with the machinations of two Necromancers from Thay, under the orders of Szass Tam, to create a Dread Ring he has discovered in the forests just outside of Immersea.
The Dread Ring, an immense area of necromantic energy infused by significant loss and death, was inadvertently created by members of the Eldreth Veluuthra as they used the area to ambush human passengers though the Kings' Forest between Dhedluk and Immersea. However, now they're in dire straights as they face significant amounts of the Undead, controlled by one of the Necromancers while the people in town are dealing with both attacks from elves AND the undead created in Immersea.
Option 3: KEEP the Phlan/Moonsea adventures from 5th Edition and the storylines that we suggested here, and just convert them to 13th Age. Luckily converting to 13A is relatively simple and easy to do as most of the monsters are easily replaced with little fuss. This also gives me a greater use of Factions as I use them instead of Icons that 13A really favors.
But I've got time to decide and see what the players want to do. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 08:12:35
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| Have you decided on a direction? |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 19:45:39
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By the way, been loving this thread.
13th Age I think could be a cool direction to go. Just to ask; any thoughts on Pathfinder 2e? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2021 : 00:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Have you decided on a direction?
Well, yes and no lol. At the beginning of October we were still doing the Curse of Strahd campaign when the DM decided that he'd take the next several weeks to install a shed in his backyard, and stopped DMing. The following 4 weeks we had 2 people out each time AND I had a camping trip AND a Halloween Hayride on our D&D nights. So we were only able to get two sessions with myself and two other people.
With so many out and constant fluctuation, I decided to go with the 13th Age campaign for the time being. If I'm going to do Phlan (presumably with 5E) then I'd like the whole group to be a bit better focused on the nuisances I'm making in the game and the setting/plot overall than the there/not-there players that's been happening recently.
I believe we're going to make a decision on going BACK to CoS or if the other 2 players want to make characters for the continuing 13A game this week or next. It's not a very long campaign (I'm just running a module with Realms influences that can lead to bigger things later) so it won't lock us into a long-term thing for months on-end.
Still, after our foray into Ravenloft and the CoS is complete I still don't know the System-direction I want to go into? 5E is a very weird system for me, to be honest. Like....there are things I like as a Player (and things I don't) and the same goes for DMing. So we'll see. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2021 : 00:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
By the way, been loving this thread.
I'm glad you've enjoyed it. Phlan has always been one of my favorite non-Sword Coast areas to play around in and the larger Moonsea too.
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
13th Age I think could be a cool direction to go.
I'm liking 13th Age a lot from both a RP perspective and how involved the Factions/Icons can get as well from a Rules standpoint. As a big 4E Fan, I think they did a pretty excellent job of keeping elements that made 4E fun and unique while rounding off or eliminating things that didn't really work in 4E. For example, Mooks (ie. "minions") all usually have more than 1 Hit Point but far less than a standard monsters, which was an oversight that the 4E team sort of goofed on. For example, a Level 27 "minion" with a TON of Experience Points is still one-shot killed by a 1st level Wizard with auto-hitting Magic Missile. Now, it's true that 1) A DM shouldn't throw monsters like that at PCs and 2) Magic Missile used to not auto-hit, making the issue moot but it was changed later and that was problematic.
Another thing is how different a lot of classes feel as well as allowing greater variety within that class framework. Playing a Fighter isn't "pushing buttons" on a Feat (like in 3.5) or a "power/exploit" (like in 4E) or using a "Maneuver" (like in 5E). They're flexible attacks, meaning the crop up when the dice say so, so it's random to a degree and the player-character has to jump at those random opportunities that present themselves. It feels more organic.
I guess, lastly, is that they dropped the hyper-focus on nuances - something that I really love. Combat movement is simple: You actively fighting (engaged), can get there in a turn (nearby), takes a bit longer (far away). That's it. No square/feet counting to exploit the 5-10-5 squares of 3.5 or having to do a "U" maneuver to avoid an Opportunity Attack, etc. Very Theater of the Mind oriented - which is cool. Also, light sources/darkvision/etc. is pretty much scrapped. Like, they say if you want to incorporate it into the game with specific races you can but largely it's never really an issue past 1st level when people have access to torces, light cantrips, and different sight.
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
Just to ask; any thoughts on Pathfinder 2e?
I have the Core Rulesbook on PDF and, well I REALLY wanted to like it. It does a lot of things right from what I read that I do enjoy. For one, I love that Spells get stronger the more you invest your turn into casting it. A full-round casting has a lot more "Oomph" than a quick spell and movement. So that was really cool. I also enjoyed the emphasis on Shield-use and allowing people to absorb shots using it at the shield's detriment. It made shield material far more interesting now and put more control on whether a player wanted to sacrifice the shield in some ways to save their ally, a gamble but one that definitely fuels drama.
Yet, it retained a LOT of elements from 3.5 that I felt really hampered and brought the game down. For one, Iterative Attack Penalties are still a thing. There's a reason why 3e (and it's derivatives) are the only D&D system that used them, they're not popular and really, don't make much sense. Why are my attacks getting worse just because I'm swinging more? So that was a big red flag for me.
Second, another sad carry-over from 3.5/PF1 was just how much they dislike non-casters being flexible. You have your options and *bam* those are it for 20 levels. Sure you might allow/use "retraining" but that's often done at One change per level. IT's still far too ridged. For example, lets take your Champion Class. They get Divine Ally at 3rd level (pg. 108) that lets them choose a Mount/Shield/Blade much like they had in 3.5/PF1. This option can never be changed. Why? A champion of a deity should be gifted with the best option to achieve their goal. In some terrain, a Mount is ideal. In some closed tombs of the undead, a Sword is better. In defense of an important NPC, a shield is needed. Why limit it to a one-time decision? I feel it's bad game design. Same with say, the Fighter and his feat choices. Can he swap these out per day? I don't think he can - though I didn't read any rules that say he couldn't.
I guess my issues are that Martial/Weapon-uses are still behind when it comes to some of the biggest reason why casters are so wonderful, they have ever-changing tools at their fingertips and others can't really compare. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2021 : 03:21:47
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Hello Diffan!
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well, yes and no lol.
Isn't that always the way? :)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
after our foray into Ravenloft and the CoS is complete I still don't know the System-direction I want to go into? 5E is a very weird system for me, to be honest. Like....there are things I like as a Player (and things I don't) and the same goes for DMing. So we'll see.
That cool. Taking time to figure out what you actually want to do and making sure you got a player focus for what you want to do are both very important things to get a quality game.
Whatever you wind up doing, I wish you the best of luck!
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2021 : 21:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Diffan!
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well, yes and no lol.
Isn't that always the way? :)
It's really the biggest problem with D&D in general. Or maybe it's just my group?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
after our foray into Ravenloft and the CoS is complete I still don't know the System-direction I want to go into? 5E is a very weird system for me, to be honest. Like....there are things I like as a Player (and things I don't) and the same goes for DMing. So we'll see.
That cool. Taking time to figure out what you actually want to do and making sure you got a player focus for what you want to do are both very important things to get a quality game.
Whatever you wind up doing, I wish you the best of luck!
[/quote]
Thanks, I appreciate it! As someone who has ADD, its often hard to concentrate solely one singular campaign and not get derailed into a thousand other things, which is why I want to give the Phlan campaign as much undivided attention as I can. This thread has certainly given me TONS of options and ideas to go further than just the core elements of the pre-made adventures I originally had. Figuring out how to involve the PCs and Factions more is going to really help flesh out the player's desires for what their character will want to accomplish - and I hope that pertains to other things outside the adventure too.
One thing I hope for is someone want to go with the Triad/Gauntlet/Etc and maybe help restore Waiting, the Temple of Tyr to it's former glory and how that will interact with the current Zhent rule there. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 15:56:19
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Well with the New Year, the group wants to re-visit an old campaign that we've had on-going for about 2 decades. I have been convinced to update it to 5th Edition (from 4E and from 3E before that) so that's what I'm currently doing, lol.
I'd love to go back and do more prep-work on the Phlan adventures but it looks like that'll be pushed off to the back burner for a while. As I convert all these things to 5E from our 4E/3E game, I'll have a much better grasp on running and doing 5E on a more exclusive level - which will only make the Phlan adventure better IMO. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 04:44:19
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Having to go back over your work to do it again sucks. My mind would rebel at having to convert characters sheets. Basically it's a matter of "haven't we done this already?" I hope you don't have to convert too many character sheets.
Best of luck on the returning to the old campaign, though, especially with returning players. Those can be the best adventures! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2022 : 10:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Having to go back over your work to do it again sucks. My mind would rebel at having to convert characters sheets. Basically it's a matter of "haven't we done this already?" I hope you don't have to convert too many character sheets.
Best of luck on the returning to the old campaign, though, especially with returning players. Those can be the best adventures!
Well as the DM, I only have to convert one really. I sort of enjoy the challenge as it forces me to delve deeper into the mechanics and gritty parts of 5e and helps me gain a firmer grasp of the overall rules. It also allows me the option to make more homebrewed things. For this particular up-coming campaign, the Players are between levels 8 and 11. The intent is to get them roughly 15-20th level by the end so they can defeat Orcus. I think i'll make a new scroll of the campaign, if anything to get feedback.
I still love the idea of running a Moonsea/Phlan adventure and incorporating all the elements from here though. I just wish someone put out a Campaign Supplement book like we got for Ed's Border Kingdoms and the Rasheman one. Those were amazing! |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 17:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well as the DM, I only have to convert one really.
That is good. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think i'll make a new scroll of the campaign, if anything to get feedback.
Looking forward to it! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2022 : 17:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think i'll make a new scroll of the campaign, if anything to get feedback.
Diffan,
Is this "The Battle Against Orcus! (5E)" scroll to which you refer?
Regards,
D |
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Topic |
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Phlan and the Moonsea Campaign (5E)
