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DeBasilisk
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2021 : 16:48:21
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Assuming the Gods of the Realms still hold to the same rules regarding portfolios post Sundering, is there any canon publication or DMsguild product that lays out the official current portfolios of the pantheon(s)? The Sword Coast Adventurers guide has paltry information on the Gods and the novels I have read haven’t exactly laid it out either, certainly not on an expansive scale. I know there are some “religion in the realms” guides on DMsguild but have not read them and don’t know how current they are in-world.
Or is this just kind of the “theatre of the mind” philosophy that is popular in 5e and gaming these days where the less that is established as “canon” the better so as to allow groups greater freedom to make the realms their own, as it were? Which doesn’t suit my tastes particularly, but certainly to each their own.
Specifically, I am trying to find out which portfolios Cyric retains and which the other gods have reclaimed from him. SCAG says that his priests consider it “heresy” to call Cyric a god of strife, receipt and madness, yet the former two were portfolios he purposefully stole previously so I don’t know why his priests would consider that offensive. SCAG also says Mask is the God of Intrigue, so I guess he lost that as well? Leira, Bhaal and Bane are all returned. Does he have anything other than Lies left?
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 18:34:00
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I don't believe there is any canon publication on the matter in 5e at least.
Though Tempus and Garagos have both War as part of their portfolios (per 2nd and 3rd editions), so this idea that gods cannot have the share portfolios is clearly not entirely true. Granted Tempus represents a more honourable and restrained form of war than Garagos, who just represents the carnage of war. Also Garagos is a much diminished deity compared to Tempus, and also whose bloodthirsty outlook is not something that Tempus wants to incorporate (which would happen by killing him), and thus why he tolerates his existence.
But perhaps sharing the same portfolios does put two gods at odds with each other, which would explain many conflicts and rivalries between various deities. |
Edited by - deserk on 24 May 2021 18:35:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 19:10:03
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It's really hard to say what portfolios Cyric could possibly have -- because they came from other deities, and WotC has given us the vague (and canonically impossible!) statement that all the gods are back.
Cyric held the portfolios of Leira, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He lost at least one of those before the "return" of the dead deities. Since the former holders of his portfolios are back, someone is either going to be left hanging or they'll have to pick up some new portfolio. |
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DeBasilisk
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 20:17:16
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| That’s my thought process as well. And wasn’t he the “Prince of Lies,” even before he slew (or thought he slew) Leira? Where did they portfolio come from? And he also took Intrigue from Mask, yet the SCAG specifically mentions intrigue as among Masks sphere of interest so I would assume Cyric lost that as well. I really do just get the vibe that 5e deliberately wants things to be vague and mysterious. Granted, there is some virtue to that, but I just wish there were some clarity. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 20:59:01
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| The SCAG (notably p 21) and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are as good as it gets. Cyric is much diminished as only the god of lies now, though there is clearly something more going on with the Dead Three then has been revealed. All that said, there's always been some bleed in the portfolios, regardless of Ao's alleged rules. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 22:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DeBasilisk
I really do just get the vibe that 5e deliberately wants things to be vague and mysterious. Granted, there is some virtue to that, but I just wish there were some clarity.
I think they're just shooting for vague, not mysterious, and that the reason is to give themselves maximum flexibility. Since they're treating the setting as nothing more than a place to drop whatever adventures they come up with, they want to make sure they don't have to worry about lore getting in the way of anything they want to do. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 22:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
The SCAG (notably p 21) and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are as good as it gets. Cyric is much diminished as only the god of lies now, though there is clearly something more going on with the Dead Three then has been revealed. All that said, there's always been some bleed in the portfolios, regardless of Ao's alleged rules.
I'm personally leaning towards the Dead Three being something more akin to avatars than anything else. My thinking is that they are not actually deities -- they're more than mortal, but not full-on divine.
And that's how they came back. The nonsense about stepping down is just PR. Ao is giving them a chance to re-ascend, but it's on them. So of course they're going to make sure everyone believes they are gods, because that's one of the ways home for them.
...Assuming, of course, that the Dead Three did return, and aren't imposters... 
Personally, I hate the "all the gods are back!" thing and think it's way more problematic than it's worth, but this is me trying to work through it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11694 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2021 : 23:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's really hard to say what portfolios Cyric could possibly have -- because they came from other deities, and WotC has given us the vague (and canonically impossible!) statement that all the gods are back.
Cyric held the portfolios of Leira, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He lost at least one of those before the "return" of the dead deities. Since the former holders of his portfolios are back, someone is either going to be left hanging or they'll have to pick up some new portfolio.
To note, I don't adhere to it, but technically Cyric has lies and Leira is just illusions now. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2021 : 17:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm personally leaning towards the Dead Three being something more akin to avatars than anything else. My thinking is that they are not actually deities -- they're more than mortal, but not full-on divine.
The Dead Three get some attention in Descent Into Avernus.
Perhaps most pertinent, however, are the following outtakes I collected on a brief glance:
"While the Sundering saw the other gods of the Forgotten Realms withdraw their direct influence from the world, the Dead Three remained behind in mortal form as quasi-divine beings. While their power has diminished, they remain a formidable trio and play a malevolent role in influencing events on Faerun."
"The demigods Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul walk among mortals, personally seeking followers to their cause. More than once, it's rumoured, the trio has even trod the streets of Baldur's Gate."
So yes. They are resurrected gods, but are not full Powers. While a direct comparison between the game rules of previous editions to the current fifth edition is at best questionable, they could likely be qualified as Divine Rank 0 gods under the 3.5e ruleset:
"Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether."
Notably, the Dead Three can grant spells, as Bane has cultists able to cast clerical spells to pick one example. They also have cultists who seem to function similarly to warlocks, making them a plausible fifth edition Warlock patron.
They haven't returned to being full gods and seem to have done so deliberately in order to continue influencing the mortal world in ways that a full deity is prohibited from doing, at the cost of sacrificing much of their power.
I would actually there draw some comparisons with Finder Wyvernspur, for whom I remember one Realms novel from years and years ago included him going to Sigil. In order to get around the Lady of Pain's prohibition on deities, he stored almost all his divinity in an amulet or talisman of some sort, meaning he technically was not a god and could thus enter the city without* being mazed/bladed by the Lady like that other dead berk Aoskar.
There are also comparisons you could draw to Auril, who is kicking around in Icewind Dale during 1489 DR or thereabouts. From Rime of the Frostmaiden:
"So long as she has mortal worshipers, Auril can't truly die (although the characters can rid the world of her for a time)."
"In her self-inflicted weakened state, Auril is inclined to be cautious and avoid contact with other creatures that can harm her."
"If Auril is killed in her third and final form, she is dead until the next winter solstice. While she is dead, her mortal worshipers lose their god-granted spells and abilities."
"Auril's death is temporary, for a god who has mortal worshipers can't truly die. When the Frostmaiden is resurrected on the next winter solstice, she has all her divine power. But her inclination is to retreat from the world and not allow herself to be imperiled by mortals once more."
The act of physically returning to Toril, casting the magic that causes permanent night in Icewind Dale, and also granting spells to followers appears to be greatly weakening Auril, but she deliberately chose it. She is also "hiding" from divine enemies that might come to destroy her personally (possibly implying that while the characters can only temporarily kill her, if the Dead Three or a sufficiently-empowered individual came for her it could be different).
Anyway, something similar to these situations is likely the case for the Dead Three, though of course they don't have statblocks or anything like Auril does** in Rime of the Frostmaiden. In exchange for not wielding their full power as gods, the Dead Three have perhaps given it up or otherwise stored it somewhere.
Highlighting some basic things for them:
- Bane takes various forms, but always has a jet-black right hand (wears a gauntlet or glove to conceal it and then revealing it to display his true power). Always well-dressed, as either a noble or a successful mercenary general. Preferred weapon is a mace.
- Bhaal always carries a red handkerchief somewhere on his person and changes forms often. He has a specific alternate appearance of a hulking brute armed with a long, curved dagger that drips blood, but in that form he has only a loincloth, he's hairless and covered with bleeding wounds. His face is a skull flayed of flesh and surrounded by a halo of blood.
- Myrkul, nobody knows what form he is taking, only what his cultists are up to.
Beyond that, they have cults and so on that they are amassing, but their specific goals are left unknown beyond a plot hooks and rumours. That they are deliberately remaining among mortals in order to get around Ao's prohibition and influence the Realms directly, however, is blatantly stated.
* Although I also remember in that book that Finder had to step quickly, because the Lady responded to his loophole abuse by imposing a sense of oppressive dread as she politely insisted that he remove himself from her demesne before she made an example of him.
** Incidentally, if played to her full potential by a DM, Auril can be a brutal fight. In the adventure the party will be around 7th level and suffering a severe dearth of magic (since the adventure is extremely stingy with items). She can easily introduce their faces to the pavement without counting the assistance she can call on. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar . . .
This post is beyond wonderful.  |
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T_P_T |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 03:53:16
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I find the thought of Bane willfully weakening himself to be implausible. I just don't see someone as power-mad and tyrannical as he's always been saying "you know what, I'm going to have less power and focus all of my attentions on just one small place at a time, rather than being more powerful and having less direct influence but having it over an entire continent."
That's why I believe that the Dead Three were not returned to their former status -- they were returned in a very weakened state and told "okay, it's on you: sink or swim."
Since that doesn't mesh well with the image Bane wants to present, though, he lied to his priests and said it was a voluntary thing.
In my opinion, it's the only way that it makes any sense at all.
That said... I prefer the Dead Three to remain dead. I came aboard with the ToT, so I didn't have any connection to the Dead Three, other than seeing them basically painted as evil caricatures. Bane came across as evil for the sake of being evil, Bhaal came across as something more akin to a rabid animal, and Myrkul came across as the "ooh, death is scary!" type -- and all of those things are just boring to me. And the later material that had Myrkul lingering as an artifact, happily not being a god anymore -- I thought that was awesome, because it made him a lot more interesting and IMO had more role-playing potential.
There is also my previously-stated theory about Xvim being Bane 2.0.
So while I think my theory is the most logical explanation, I'll readily acknowledge I've got some bias, there. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2021 03:53:57 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 12:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I find the thought of Bane willfully weakening himself to be implausible. I just don't see someone as power-mad and tyrannical as he's always been saying "you know what, I'm going to have less power and focus all of my attentions on just one small place at a time, rather than being more powerful and having less direct influence but having it over an entire continent."
Alongside these Dead Three cults and Bane walking around, his active church is still active, just like Auril's church is still active while she's mucking about in Icewind Dale.
If Bane's situation is anything like Auril, which I think is highly likely based on the parallels that can be drawn, he is still a god, or still in possession of his divine spark. He answers prayers, provides spells, sends visions to his followers, and does other stuff that a god does. He can't truly die while he has people who worship him, so even if he is slain he will eventually return. He still has his safety net against permanent death, and other gods either will not or cannot simply take advantage of his temporary quasi-god status to smite him and call it a day.
It may be worth mentioning that the adventure never says Bane or any of the Dead Three are currently in Baldur's Gate, and they are never encountered or fought. It discusses their influence/cult presence in BG because that's where the players encounter that particular sect of the Dead Three cult. We don't know what his plan is, just that it's something he couldn't do if he retreated like other gods.
My assumption at this point is that it will probably play into whatever is being done with the video game side of things in Baldur's Gate 3, as it has been widely stated to involve the Dead Three and their plans. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 17:13:54
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While it may be poor form to double-post, I was also interested in the "why" of Bane's decision in context with something I just saw Ed wrote on Twitter a couple of days ago:
"All of 'the Dead Three,' like Jergal, the deity who made possible their divinity in the first place, are mavericks; they don't behave as most gods do, so their deeds and actions often puzzle mortals like us."
Possibly relevant to the wondering of what they're up to and why they chose to stick around on Toril. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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5e Portfolios
