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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2021 :  06:27:11  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It does not grab me, but the cover artist posted the cover art on Artstation. Sharing this for those who like clean cover art (as in, without titles and other stuff in the way).

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/3dk81o


-Nothing wrong with it but yeah, it doesn't jump out at me either. Not that cover art necessarily needs to be better than the art found in the book, but that's what that looks like. An inserted image in the Strad section with a caption. But maybe with a title and some text on the cover, it'll pop more.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2021 :  14:05:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Your love for multi-world/plane spanning linkages always shines through sleyvas.

-- George Krashos



Thank you. The more I think on it, a domain ruled by Fastrin the Delver (who if I remember correctly... killed everyone in his kingdom to prevent the "secret" from getting out? Wasn't that it?) in Ravenloft would be an intriguing idea. Since its also technically the same "place" roughly that Hazlik came from, there could be some tie ins to it. Maybe even something where Fastrin and his kingdom recently reappeared after the finding of his book.

Maybe even we find out that the atropal helping Tam has some ties to ravenloft and similar rituals, since we don't have much of his history.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  01:24:26  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message
Hazlin has been confirmed to be in VRGtR, Magical Horrors targeting those with Dark Gifts. I'm not sure what that means in practice.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1279 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  11:38:44  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  16:32:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Considering that WotC is doing better than Hasbro right now, I'm not sure how it could be said that the manor is aflame, here.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1279 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  19:29:07  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



Considering that WotC is doing better than Hasbro right now, I'm not sure how it could be said that the manor is aflame, here.



What's going on with Hasbro? Also, why Hasbro? I didn't have them in mind...consider me confused.

My comment was about the consistency and quality (or lack thereof) of legacy settings they're attempting to update. It has already been established that people will buy anything with the Wizards of the Coast label, so obviously profits aren't the issue. Anyhow, this mishandling has convinced me that they should stay away from Planescape.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2021 :  19:36:22  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



I’m more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasn’t been touched in three editions.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  01:19:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



I’m more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasn’t been touched in three editions.



This is an honest question and has application to something I'm looking at atm: is it appropriate to portray racism in a game book and identify it as such, or is it simply a "no go" zone?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  01:23:49  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



I’m more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasn’t been touched in three editions.



This is an honest question and has application to something I'm looking at atm: is it appropriate to portray racism in a game book and identify it as such, or is it simply a "no go" zone?

-- George Krashos



The issue is not depicting /racism/, it’s furthering racist tropes uncritically in your fiction. Ravenloft is racist because the Vistani are a heap of regurgitated real-world anti-Romani stereotypes played completely straight, not because those people face discrimination and oppression in the fictional world they inhabit.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  04:01:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  04:08:46  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos



Any work involving skin color-based racism is in conversation with the same issue in real life, whether they want it to be or not; I note that your example here assumes dark skin being discriminated against, which means your fictional world is assuming a lighter skin-based default - so I might ask, why default to white supremacy?

Furthermore, the Vistani issue is not just “European-coded fantasy people are mean to dark-skinned outsiders,” it’s that they are drunken, fiddling, evil eye-wielding, tarot card-reading, headscarf-wearing, covered wagon-traveling folk. It’s exporting real world stereotypes directly into your fiction, the same as when fantasy settings have Arab slavers and tribal Africans and a bootleg imperial China, whereas the European-esque settings get to be things of creative, original fantasy.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1279 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  07:30:33  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



I’m more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasn’t been touched in three editions.



If the product isn't good enough, it won't sell (or at least not sell enough to meet target numbers), no matter how "racially" sensitive the final work ends up being.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:01:41  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I think I heard they hired a Romani sensitivity consultant.



Polishing the counter while the manor is aflame...talk about skewed priorities.



I’m more concerned about not being racist than I am about lore that hasn’t been touched in three editions.



If the product isn't good enough, it won't sell (or at least not sell enough to meet target numbers), no matter how "racially" sensitive the final work ends up being.



I’ve got every reason to believe there will be at least a few entertaining ideas in a book containing 30 settings, and my friends who play 5e are excited by the player options; Curse of Strahd sold like gangbusters, so I fully expect this to do the same.

Sales are pretty much accounted for on any 5e book, and I’m not too worried about Hasbro’s pocketbook anyway. But if it’s spouting the same dated nonsense that hurts real people like the old stuff did? That’s worth worrying about, to me.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:02:53  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

[quote]Originally posted by George Krashos

So, we know that the Romani people/culture suffer racism in the RW. The issue in the context of Ravenloft then must be that the original writers took a RW racism situation and transplanted it to the fictional milieu.

How does that work then in a more simplified situation? By that I mean skin colour. Is it inappropriate in your fictional campaign setting to have the dark-skinned Harathi race be the victims of racism?

To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking to push any agenda it might be implied that I have in delving into the topic. I really want to know where that line is.

-- George Krashos


Any work involving skin color-based racism is in conversation with the same issue in real life, whether they want it to be or not; I note that your example here assumes dark skin being discriminated against, which means your fictional world is assuming a lighter skin-based default - so I might ask, why default to white supremacy?



What if you are writing in a world where that dark-skin racism is a "historical fact" in the published products. Is it okay to replicate it and be true to the published information while making it clear that the historical event was driven by racism?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  09:50:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message
As far as I'm concerned, in fiction almost anything goes. You aren't glorifying it or saying it's okay, you are using it as part of an established history to drive or support a particular narrative.

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Wendolyn
Seeker

56 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2021 :  11:16:21  Show Profile Send Wendolyn a Private Message
I'm no expert on the subject, but I think it is key to distinguish between portraying racism in your world versus normalizing/glorifying racism in your world as keftiu said. Slavery is a social evil, like racism, and is quite prevalent in the Forgotten Realms, but I think it is pretty consistently portrayed as a bad thing. (The heroes are often fighting slavers, rescuing slaves, etc.). A world where there is widespread racism, but it is shown like slavery to be bad, I think is okay.

The problems I think can occur if you are more ambivalent if racism is good or bad your fantasy world. And then if on top of that, the marginalized groups in your world resemble real-world groups (like the Romani) that have suffered due to racism, then it is starting to look pretty insensitive, to say the least.

If you want to have racism exist in your fantasy world, I think that can be done in a unproblematic way. I don't anyone has an issue with N.K. Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy where she has widespread prejudice towards a subgroup (Orogenes) in her fantasy world. But you need to be careful to make sure you aren't, intentionally or not, reifying real-world stereotypes and contributing to the stigmatization of real-world marginalized groups.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  01:32:06  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
The entire problem with the Romani and Vistani is that the Vistani aren't based on the Romani ethnicity, they're based on the followers of the Romanipen code. Americans generally don't get it, but Europeans - Eastern Europeans in particular - generally can differentiate the two.

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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  01:49:38  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The entire problem with the Romani and Vistani is that the Vistani aren't based on the Romani ethnicity, they're based on the followers of the Romanipen code. Americans generally don't get it, but Europeans - Eastern Europeans in particular - generally can differentiate the two.





No, the Vistani are based on European caricatures of the Romani people played straight - and your response reads an awful lot like “that’s how they really are!” which is racist nonsense.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  04:06:17  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
Keftiu, the real-life practicioners of Romanipen are walking caricatures. Screaming 'racist' at something because it's decreed racist doesn't actually help when real-life practicioners of Romanipen work like a cross between the mafia and something out of Borat.

To people who have actually dealt with Romanipen, claims of 'racist' comes off as disturbingly ignorant especially when the Romanipen are generally a European phenomenon, not an American one.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  04:52:24  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Keftiu, the real-life practicioners of Romanipen are walking caricatures. Screaming 'racist' at something because it's decreed racist doesn't actually help when real-life practicioners of Romanipen work like a cross between the mafia and something out of Borat.

To people who have actually dealt with Romanipen, claims of 'racist' comes off as disturbingly ignorant especially when the Romanipen are generally a European phenomenon, not an American one.



My Romani friends who came to America to escape persecution because of the exact rhetoric you’re spouting?

Get your head out of your ass.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  05:09:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Folks, I think we've adequately covered that topic and need to move on.

This is not a request. We've been down this road before, and it never ends well.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  05:43:48  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message
Is being openly racist allowed under forum rules?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  08:04:41  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message
*sigh*

I'm beginning to see the disconnect here.

Keftiu is working on the assumption that "Roma" refers to the Romani people as a whole, which explains why she's tarring me as racist, whereas I'm pointing out that the Vistani are specifically based on the Romanipen culture, which is another issue entirely. These are two different things, and then you have to throw in the cultural divide because I seriously doubt keftiu has actually met a practitioner of the Romanipen culture (the so-called "gypsies").

Keftiu is basically operating under Roma=Romanipen, which is why she's throwing the blanket condemnation around. The Romanipen are a living nightmare for anyone who's actually had to deal with them, which is not helped by their culture explicitly considering 'gadjos' to be subhuman.

I don't think people realize just how much the Romanipen culture is despised, which is not surprising as this forum is mostly American. People don't have a problem with the Roma, they have a problem with the Romanipen, which is to be expected when Romanipen culture is basically Chaotic Neutral in Action.

It's sort of how Americans think that Europeans, Asians and Africans are each an individual monolithic bloc. We're not.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2021 :  10:37:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Thanks, folks, for not moving on. We're done.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Mar 2021 10:37:56
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