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Originally posted by sleyvas

You base this as if there may not be magical, elemental, or other reasons for skin coloration. Remember, the drow live in the underdark and have ebony skin, but moon elves are on the surface and have pale skin. I don't believe there's been given a specific reason behind this coloration, but they don't have to. It may be something related to gold dwarves being more "earthy".

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Originally posted by Seco

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You base this as if there may not be magical, elemental, or other reasons for skin coloration. Remember, the drow live in the underdark and have ebony skin, but moon elves are on the surface and have pale skin. I don't believe there's been given a specific reason behind this coloration, but they don't have to. It may be something related to gold dwarves being more "earthy".

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That's my question - if there's a magical explanation. The dark tone of drows, for example, is explained as a curse. I'm wondering if there's a similar reason for the dark color of gold dwarves.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I don't think the "biological point of view" really applies.

Dwarves are not humans. They're not even genetically compatible with humans, in the strictest sense. They're a different species with a different biology..

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Originally posted by Ayrik

And of course dwarves do not have natural origins, they have supernatural origins. Their colouration is whatever Moradin preferred when he hammered the first dwarves on his forge. On some other world (not Earth).

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Originally posted by Seco

I'm new to Forgotten Realms, and while reading some material about the Realms, I was puzzled about the description surrounding dwarves' skin color.

According to the lore, shield dwarves are typically pale, while gold dwarves have a darker tone. Monsters of Faerun even depicts golden dwarves with a very dark skin color.

I can't get my head around this - doesn't make sense, at least from a biological point of view. A lot of shield dwarves dwell on the surface, living in human's kingdoms. They are in a daily contact with the sun, which should mean darker skin colors. On the other hand, golden dwarves live under The Rift. They get a little to none sun in their lives. From this point of view, they should have lighter skin color, even being pale.

Is there an explanation for this variety of color? I've searched the forum for similar question, but find none.

PS: Sorry for any grammatical errors. English is not my native tongue.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I was actually referencing the "half-dwarves" from FR11 Dwarves Deep when I said that dwarves and humans are genetically incompatible.

Pure-human parent plus pure-dwarf parent produces half-dwarf child. Essentially a dwarf but with some human traits (slightly taller, etc).
Pure-human parent plus half-dwarf parent produces half-dwarf child. Essentially a dwarf but with some human traits (slightly taller, etc).
Half-dwarf parent plus half-dwarf parent produces pure-dwarf child. A pure-dwarf without any human traits.
Pure-dwarf parent plus half-dwarf parent produces pure-dwarf child. A pure-dwarf without any human traits.

This is more than dominant-vs-recessive genes. This is one species able to genetically propagate itself through another. Dwarven genes completely overwrite human genes, carrying forward no matter how "diluted" they become across human bloodlines. While the human genes are entirely discarded once paired again with dwarven genes. The human parent(s) are essentially just adoptive wombs for breeding dwarves, they contribute no meaningful genetic legacy. (This is yet another thing which defies biology as we understand it, at least when a human species is involved.)

Maybe half-dwarves can suffer from sunburn and/or from Vitamin D deficiencies. Maybe they can inherit hair and eye and skin colour, body type, genetic advantages, genetic maladies, or other characteristics from their human parentage. But this has no impact on the pure-dwarven genetics (and pure-dwarven colourations) from which they're derived - or to which they return.

I suggest that half-dwarven half-elven ("dwelf") hybrids would also be "half-dwarves" under this definition. Their non-dwarven parentage might contribute different features (maybe slenderer builds, pointed ears, a disgusting lack of facial hair, etc), but in the end they'd basically be dwarves and they would basically only breed into more dwelves or more dwarves.

One of the character race options in Darksun is "Mul". A human/dwarf crossbreed, better in certain ways than both parent races (at least in the earlier Darksun rule editions). Although Muls are also sterile - they cannot breed populations of Muls.
Although of course this isn't Realmslore. And all of the (non-Kreen, non-Gith) races of Athas are said to have evolved from halflings anyhow, lol.

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One other note, though: half-elves breed true with each other. In real-world genetics, two half-breeds would have a chance of producing full breed offspring, but that doesn't apply to D&D half-elves.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

@sleyvas

My understanding, as of 2E rules and lore ...

Elves mixed with humans become half-elves. Half-elves mixed with humans become humans (with slightly elven features). Half-elves mixed with elves only breed half-elves, even with only a single drop of human in their otherwise purely elven ancestry after countless generations. Apparently human genetics are dominant over elven genetics much like dwarven genetics are dominant over human genetics, they forever "taint" the elven bloodline, though not quite as strongly. (This isn't such a big deal with the usual elf vs half-elf racial abilities, but it results in a very significant difference between their lifespans.)

PHBR8 suggests that elves and half-elves always express as one of the distinct elven subtypes. There are no mixes - only the established subtypes (and their minor variations on different worlds). A diagram is provided which describes each "branch" of elves on a "tree" - the text seems to imply that each of the elven species originated through divine will, it doesn't explain how they might have diverged or evolved in any "natural" way. It does, however, note that certain elven racial abilities are (magically?) attuned to the world/plane they're native to and that it takes "at least 50 years" for an elf to fully adapt to (be able to use these racial abilities on) a new world. If elves are indeed (magically?) sensitive to conditions on different worlds then it's logical for unique conditions on particular worlds (like the Weave in the Realms) to somehow change them over time.
I think I read somewhere that any kind of drow-elf (or drow half-elf) parentage always produces a drow-elf (or drow half-elf) child because of the drow curse - but I cannot recall the source.
There are some exceptions - star elves from the Realms, grugach (and perhaps also a different variety of drow) from Oerth, all the elves of Athas - who were described as not fitting the usual rules, though no further rules or explanations or details were actually provided.

1E half-orcs were described as typically being foul, vile, stupid, half-inarticulate. PCs were assumed to be selected from the "top 10%" of half-orcs, the ones who were utterly brutish and bestial by human standards but who were also paragons of high intellect and civilization by orcish standards. They were overwhelmingly likely to choose Evil alignments and had some class/multiclass options which suggested strong aptitudes for cruel and cunning behaviours which other races considered utterly distasteful.

I won't really speak of fiend-blooded hybrids. I prefer the 1E/2E definitions for cambions, alu-demons, and tieflings. Along with some 3E definitions for aasimar, celestial, genasi, planetouched sorts. But I personally reject the entire 4E reformat to Asmodeus-tieflings and anything 5E might have derived from it.

Although daemonfey and fey'ri are a thing I do recognize. The usual practice in pre-4E rules was for the "fiend" (or "outsider", "planetouched", etc) template to overwrite the "elf" template, so if there were questions or conflicts involving fiend-vs-elf "genetics" then I think the fiend traits would consistently prevail.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One other note, though: half-elves breed true with each other. In real-world genetics, two half-breeds would have a chance of producing full breed offspring, but that doesn't apply to D&D half-elves.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've seen a couple of third-party books that had elf/orc mixes.

And then, of course, there is the infamous (in our halls, at least!) Xal Valzar...

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've seen a couple of third-party books that had elf/orc mixes.

And then, of course, there is the infamous (in our halls, at least!) Xal Valzar...

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-Holy crap, that discussion was disturbing. Seeing propaganda from a particular country in action, substitution orcs for other people, is really wow.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

I'd always thought Xal Valzar was just another disposable alias worn by Candlekeep's resident troll.

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One other note, though: half-elves breed true with each other. In real-world genetics, two half-breeds would have a chance of producing full breed offspring, but that doesn't apply to D&D half-elves.

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What you said reminded me of these sisters. Real-world biology can be fascinating; fantasy biology - being influenced by magic - is even more fascinating.

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