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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 01:32:07
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This is according Mark Rosewater, an MtG designer. I'm not sure how the FR set will fit into MtG.
Will it have Planeswalkers, perhaps, how will it fit with the lore I don't know.personally I'd replace Planeswalkers with a new card type, Pantheons, there are way too many FR Gods to fit into a MtG set.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 01:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
This is according Mark Rosewater, an MtG designer. I'm not sure how the FR set will fit into MtG.
Will it have Planeswalkers, perhaps, how will it fit with the lore I don't know.personally I'd replace Planeswalkers with a new card type, Pantheons, there are way too many FR Gods to fit into a MtG set.
Confused unless FR is still planing a merge, that "D&D and MtG" will not merge.
Either subject title in error or FR is no longer part of D&D. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 02:22:17
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I thought this was confirmed sometime last year? Good to hear some reinforcement on that notion though. What I'm still watching out for is to see what sort of storyline they have planned for the set, because there is almost certainly going to be a storyline for the set. Probably one with some major setting shakeups if it follows the example of most mtg sets.
There's also the Planeswalker issue. There's almost certainly going to be in-I don't think Planeswalkers cards have missed a set since their introduction. So I would be interested to see how they are used. Just using iconic figures from the realms and ignoring the 'planeswalking' part of it would be preferable to me. But they might throw a curveball and introduce mtg-style planeswalkers into the realms, having people's sparks ignite and gaining superpowers and the ability to transport themselves between planes. I personally wouldn't be a big fan of something like that. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 02:39:56
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| Anyone who was worried about this was silly. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2021 : 02:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
This is according Mark Rosewater, an MtG designer. I'm not sure how the FR set will fit into MtG.
Will it have Planeswalkers, perhaps, how will it fit with the lore I don't know.personally I'd replace Planeswalkers with a new card type, Pantheons, there are way too many FR Gods to fit into a MtG set.
Confused unless FR is still planing a merge, that "D&D and MtG" will not merge.
Either subject title in error or FR is no longer part of D&D.
Yeah, I'm confused here, too. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 23:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
This is according Mark Rosewater, an MtG designer. I'm not sure how the FR set will fit into MtG.
Will it have Planeswalkers, perhaps, how will it fit with the lore I don't know.personally I'd replace Planeswalkers with a new card type, Pantheons, there are way too many FR Gods to fit into a MtG set.
Confused unless FR is still planing a merge, that "D&D and MtG" will not merge.
Either subject title in error or FR is no longer part of D&D.
To clarify, when the Forgotten Realms were announced as getting a Magic the Gathering Standard legal set of black border cards last year the speculation was that the MtG multiverse and the D&D multiverse would merge.
Mark Rosewater later said in his blog no sych merger was happening.
So I'm wondering how in the context of the Forgotten Realms being a Standard Legal set hy summer, yet being set in a completely seperate multiverse from other MtG settings, how will the set interact with MtG mechanics like Planeswalkers and Mana and MtG lore and Metaplot. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2021 : 23:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I thought this was confirmed sometime last year? Good to hear some reinforcement on that notion though. What I'm still watching out for is to see what sort of storyline they have planned for the set, because there is almost certainly going to be a storyline for the set. Probably one with some major setting shakeups if it follows the example of most mtg sets.
There's also the Planeswalker issue. There's almost certainly going to be in-I don't think Planeswalkers cards have missed a set since their introduction. So I would be interested to see how they are used. Just using iconic figures from the realms and ignoring the 'planeswalking' part of it would be preferable to me. But they might throw a curveball and introduce mtg-style planeswalkers into the realms, having people's sparks ignite and gaining superpowers and the ability to transport themselves between planes. I personally wouldn't be a big fan of something like that.
When I first found out the multiverses aren't merging I thought there weren't going to be Pkaneswalkers in the set at all, that instead it would be linked to Commander 2021 and get 5 Commander Decks to make up for the lack of Planeswalkers.
I have since learned that Strixhaven will have Commander 2021's 5 Commander Decks.
So Planeswalkers are back on the table for the FR set. So this is how I see the possiblities for the FR set for tie in preconstructed deck Products.
1. Since FR's taking the core set summer slot without actually being a core set, FR could get 5 planeswalker sets that normally core sets get. The good news with that is that they come with arena codes.
2. They come with 2 to 5 Brawl Decks, hopefully with Arena codes.
3. Like Kaldheim and Zendikar they come with just 2 Commander Decks.
4. A whole new Product unique to D&D sets. This could be really cool.
If they do have Pkaneswalker Decks do they all over FR Planeswalkers, or MtG Planeswalkers like Chandra. If MtG Planeswalkers, how did they get to FR if they are seperate multiverses?
Of course the FR set will have Collector Boosters, Draft Boosters, Theme Boosters ect... no doubt as well. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2021 : 07:26:49
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Hi, longtime MtG player and MtG lore follower here.
I would not read too much into that statement. I have not found the original statement by the way - could someone provide a link?
MaRo (Mark Rosewater) has a history of being a bit coy and deliberately ambiguous about things on occasion. He’s like Obiwan Kenobi (« what I told you is true... from a certain point of view »).
If I had to guess what this means: the numerous new “planes” that are developed in MtG will not be considered to be part of D&D and vice versa. Keep in mind that several MtG planes (which, in D&D terms are more akin to « worlds » on the same prime material plane; differences between them are far smaller than between, say, the Abyss and Toril) were given a D&D treatment already (Theros, Zendikar, Amonkhet, Ixalan), so there are MtG / D&D crossovers. In the past year, MtG has done a couple of franchise crossovers (Godzilla in the Ikoria set, and the very controversial Walking Dead Secret Lair set). So MtG does crossovers, but does not do mergers.
I think what MaRo means is that despite there being a crossover, there will be no durable impact. As for Planeswalkers - these days, these are essentially gifted individuals who can travel between worlds. They’re not necessarily recognisable as mages in the D&D sense (Gideon comes to mind). Plenty of those around in the Realms. In whatever lore is published in MtG, the planeswalkers are portrayed as exceptional beings, but not infallible immortals.
Try descibing Jace Beleren to a D&D character: powerful telepath, can travel between worlds at will, likes to dress in blue....
Mind flayer!
I know you cannot compare across gaming systems and gaming genres, but I’d figure a lot of FR luminaries come across as more powerful than their counterparts in MtG. |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 18 Feb 2021 08:31:01 |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2021 : 19:56:06
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I for one have indeed worried about this, and I don't think it's silly to have done so; on the contrary, it's a sensible worry, considering some of the decisions WotC has made in the past. (I'm usually a WotC apologist, but they certainly haven't always made wise decisions related to the settings of their games.)
To be honest, I don't really even DM "The Forgotten Realms"; I run true sandbox campaigns set in "The D&D Multiverse."
Everything starts with Toril and, for my games, is centered there.
But Krynn, Oerth, Sigil, Athas, Eberron, Earth: these are places my players can go to from Toril if they really want to and can find a way to travel there. True sandbox.
Sure, it's a lot easier to find a way to the first three of these than to the last three—but it can be done, because these worlds exist in the multiverse, and if it exists, then the players might one day be able to interact with it. When my players are dungeon-delving in the Savage Frontier, they're not interacting with Mordenkainen, and they have no idea what's going on in Gradsul. But Mordenkainen is doing something somewhere, and lots of things are going on in Gradsul, and if the players can find either one, then they can interact with them. And, yes, while they're dungeon-delving, Ed of the Greenwood is sitting in his home on Earth tweeting about some stuff Elminster told him, and while personally I think Earth should be the hardest world of all to interact with from Toril, it's there, and it's possible. True sandbox.
But a sandbox has to have boundaries, no matter how expansive it is. And here are some of the boundaries of my sandbox: Theros doesn't exist. Ravnica doesn't exist. My players can't go there. It would be like trying to get from Gondor to Tatooine.
I don't want to get into the details of my dislike of MTG here. I have nothing against the many people who love it, but I dislike it deeply, and I don't want to have anything to do with its canon. On the other hand, I like D&D canon. A lot. And I like to run D&D games that hew as closely to that canon as possible. So I would prefer D&D canon not to merge with MTG canon.
Some folks have said, "Don't worry about a merger between MtG and the D&D multiverse; there's only going to be a crossover, that's all." But, to me, if the events of a crossover storyline are acknowledged within regular FR canon supplements or novels, then it's not a crossover. It's a merger. If a certain someone from FR canon has a "spark" activated and explicitly becomes a Planeswalker and goes off and chats with Jace, then that would mean—so far as I'm concerned—that MTG lore has merged with D&D lore.
And if the two canons do merge, I think that's a loss.
It wouldn't ruin FR or D&D for me, of course. I might even pick up a couple of decks of the FR MTG set despite my dislike of the game as a cultural phenomenon, because my love of FR outweighs my distaste for MTG.
But I would much rather see WotC treat the FR set of MTG cards in precisely the same way as they've treated the MTG supplement books for D&D: It's basically, "Here's a way to play this game in a different fictional universe." They might have silly little easter eggs about MTG in FR books, but I don't care much about those. Ditto with the FR MTG set: So long as it's presented as "Here's a chance to play the MTG game in the D&D multiverse," we're all good. But as soon as it becomes "Guess what! According to the new FR adventure book, Jace has become one of the Lords of Waterdeep, and in the next Salvatore novel Drizzt goes to Innistrad!" then we have a problem.
And I don't think the scenario I just described is at all implausible as something WotC might do. Hence the sensible worry. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2021 : 23:31:00
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
But a sandbox has to have boundaries, no matter how expansive it is. And here are some of the boundaries of my sandbox: Theros doesn't exist. Ravnica doesn't exist. My players can't go there. It would be like trying to get from Gondor to Tatooine.
nsible worry.
I'm not entirely sure why though? Gondor and Tatooine are in completely separate genres of fiction. There's really zero overlap conceptually. Theros, for example, is simply Greek-oriented High Fantasy. Ravnica is possibly only slightly higher in terms of "tech" as say, Eberron. Yet there's a LOT of similarities. Both have humans. Both have similar Elves, Goblins, Dragons, Elementals, etc. Both have a pretty wide range of medieval-centric combat, equipment, themes, and ideals. And all of that meshes well with D&D as a whole.
I'm not saying that having limits is bad, you know your campaign and group best. I'm just trying to better understand why theres a significant difference? |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 03:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
But a sandbox has to have boundaries, no matter how expansive it is. And here are some of the boundaries of my sandbox: Theros doesn't exist. Ravnica doesn't exist. My players can't go there. It would be like trying to get from Gondor to Tatooine.
nsible worry.
I'm not entirely sure why though? Gondor and Tatooine are in completely separate genres of fiction. There's really zero overlap conceptually. Theros, for example, is simply Greek-oriented High Fantasy. Ravnica is possibly only slightly higher in terms of "tech" as say, Eberron. Yet there's a LOT of similarities. Both have humans. Both have similar Elves, Goblins, Dragons, Elementals, etc. Both have a pretty wide range of medieval-centric combat, equipment, themes, and ideals. And all of that meshes well with D&D as a whole.
I'm not saying that having limits is bad, you know your campaign and group best. I'm just trying to better understand why theres a significant difference?
Fair enough, I guess that line did muddle the issue. I originally had "from Gondor to Hogwarts," but for several reasons I changed it. To me the point isn't about disparate genres—I've always considered Michael Moorcock's work to be the single most crucial Appendix N influence on D&D as I conceive it, so science-fantasy is already firmly in the D&D mix, albeit personally I do prefer to stay away from science-fantasy-with-science-fictional-high-tech-trappings like Star Wars and Ravnica. Eberron and Spelljammer are more weird-tech than high-tech, and that's my preferred flavor of sci-fi. But remember, you can also get (albeit rarely) from Toril to 21st-century Earth in my games.
It's also true that in principle sandboxes don't necessarily have to have any boundaries at all, and there's definitely a notion in D&D (and Moorcock) that every fictional universe whatsoever could be folded into the great big ONE multiverse. Personally, I prefer the multiverse as D&D lore tends to describe it, though: there's a specific cosmology, and there are many worlds on the Prime Material, some of which seem to be more cosmically prominent than others (Oerth, Toril, Krynn), at least inasmuch as they interact with each other a lot and less so with the many other worlds. And some of the other worlds (Eberron, Athas, and in my games Earth) are strangely isolated in one way or another, and may even appear to have their own unique and disparate cosmologies, though they do also interact with the main cosmology and the worlds in it on occasion. There's a shared metaphysics in the D&D multiverse, including a set of assumptions of about what the multiverse is and how it works (however enigmatic and polyvalent it remains in many regards). Yeah, you need to be tricksy in order to fold Earth into all that, but part of my point is that MTG lore has its own cosmology, its own metaphysics, etc., and that doesn't align easily with that of the D&D multiverse. I'm not saying it's impossible to cram it in—you could treat it like Eberron or Athas if you really wanted to—but it doesn't fit easily, much less easily than Eberron or Athas.
Take, for example, those Ravnica and Theros books: one major complaint people have about them—and I would tend to agree—is that they really make no attempt at all to incorporate MTG's understanding of magic into D&D. When you play D&D using those books, you just use D&D magic. No mana, no colors, nothing, certainly not mechanically and not really even thematically. It's like WotC realized that they would have to reinvent or jettison too many 5e mechanics in order to really create an MTG RPG experience; they realized that a true MTG RPG just wouldn't be D&D, so they decided not to try and ended up making D&D books with MTG flavor, not books that allow you to play a game that really feels appropriate to MTG lore. That's fine so far as it goes—I actually think the Ravnica book was at the time of its release the most well-crafted 5e supplement to date, and clearly WotC agrees, since they've copied its basic formula several times since (Acqusitions Inc., Eberron, Wildemount, Theros)—but it does help bolster my case that the lore of the two worlds shouldn't be merged.
Still, I'll admit that I'm more strongly motivated by other factors than these in disliking MTG. So think of it this way: let's say you really love Doctor Who, and you really hate Star Trek. Do you want the new season of Doctor Who to reveal that the Daleks created the Borg, and the Doctor has to team up with Picard to stop them?
But even this doesn't quite capture it, because those aren't RPGs. (Well, actually, they both are, but never mind.) When you're running an RPG—anyway, when I run one—I need to know what the fundamental assumptions of the universe of that RPG are. And I don't want those assumptions to change due to corporate synergy. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 15:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
But a sandbox has to have boundaries, no matter how expansive it is. And here are some of the boundaries of my sandbox: Theros doesn't exist. Ravnica doesn't exist. My players can't go there. It would be like trying to get from Gondor to Tatooine.
nsible worry.
I'm not entirely sure why though? Gondor and Tatooine are in completely separate genres of fiction. There's really zero overlap conceptually. Theros, for example, is simply Greek-oriented High Fantasy. Ravnica is possibly only slightly higher in terms of "tech" as say, Eberron. Yet there's a LOT of similarities. Both have humans. Both have similar Elves, Goblins, Dragons, Elementals, etc. Both have a pretty wide range of medieval-centric combat, equipment, themes, and ideals. And all of that meshes well with D&D as a whole.
I'm not saying that having limits is bad, you know your campaign and group best. I'm just trying to better understand why theres a significant difference?
Fair enough, I guess that line did muddle the issue. I originally had "from Gondor to Hogwarts," but for several reasons I changed it. To me the point isn't about disparate genres—I've always considered Michael Moorcock's work to be the single most crucial Appendix N influence on D&D as I conceive it, so science-fantasy is already firmly in the D&D mix, albeit personally I do prefer to stay away from science-fantasy-with-science-fictional-high-tech-trappings like Star Wars and Ravnica. Eberron and Spelljammer are more weird-tech than high-tech, and that's my preferred flavor of sci-fi. But remember, you can also get (albeit rarely) from Toril to 21st-century Earth in my games.
It's also true that in principle sandboxes don't necessarily have to have any boundaries at all, and there's definitely a notion in D&D (and Moorcock) that every fictional universe whatsoever could be folded into the great big ONE multiverse. Personally, I prefer the multiverse as D&D lore tends to describe it, though: there's a specific cosmology, and there are many worlds on the Prime Material, some of which seem to be more cosmically prominent than others (Oerth, Toril, Krynn), at least inasmuch as they interact with each other a lot and less so with the many other worlds. And some of the other worlds (Eberron, Athas, and in my games Earth) are strangely isolated in one way or another, and may even appear to have their own unique and disparate cosmologies, though they do also interact with the main cosmology and the worlds in it on occasion. There's a shared metaphysics in the D&D multiverse, including a set of assumptions of about what the multiverse is and how it works (however enigmatic and polyvalent it remains in many regards). Yeah, you need to be tricksy in order to fold Earth into all that, but part of my point is that MTG lore has its own cosmology, its own metaphysics, etc., and that doesn't align easily with that of the D&D multiverse. I'm not saying it's impossible to cram it in—you could treat it like Eberron or Athas if you really wanted to—but it doesn't fit easily, much less easily than Eberron or Athas.
Take, for example, those Ravnica and Theros books: one major complaint people have about them—and I would tend to agree—is that they really make no attempt at all to incorporate MTG's understanding of magic into D&D. When you play D&D using those books, you just use D&D magic. No mana, no colors, nothing, certainly not mechanically and not really even thematically. It's like WotC realized that they would have to reinvent or jettison too many 5e mechanics in order to really create an MTG RPG experience; they realized that a true MTG RPG just wouldn't be D&D, so they decided not to try and ended up making D&D books with MTG flavor, not books that allow you to play a game that really feels appropriate to MTG lore. That's fine so far as it goes—I actually think the Ravnica book was at the time of its release the most well-crafted 5e supplement to date, and clearly WotC agrees, since they've copied its basic formula several times since (Acqusitions Inc., Eberron, Wildemount, Theros)—but it does help bolster my case that the lore of the two worlds shouldn't be merged.
Still, I'll admit that I'm more strongly motivated by other factors than these in disliking MTG. So think of it this way: let's say you really love Doctor Who, and you really hate Star Trek. Do you want the new season of Doctor Who to reveal that the Daleks created the Borg, and the Doctor has to team up with Picard to stop them?
But even this doesn't quite capture it, because those aren't RPGs. (Well, actually, they both are, but never mind.) When you're running an RPG—anyway, when I run one—I need to know what the fundamental assumptions of the universe of that RPG are. And I don't want those assumptions to change due to corporate synergy.
One solution I've seen put forward is that the Far Realms could be a link between the otherwise seperate D&D Multiverse and the MtG universe, but otherwise their respective cosmologies are unchanged.
Of course they might simply dodge the issue again, by not addressing it. They might not even have planeswalkers should up in the set, or they might simply have local planeswalker that are refluffed as not sparking so much as characters experienced in moving between worlds like Elminister, Nazram World Walker, Drizzt now ect...,
And I honestly don't believe MtG Planeswalkers like the Gatewatch will show up in the D&D set, so no Jace. Instead of Planeswalker drama, I think the story for the set will be to set things up for a Forgotten Realms Campaign World Book, so it might focus on Volo and Elminister traveling across the Forgotten Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 17:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Instead of Planeswalker drama, I think the story for the set will be to set things up for a Forgotten Realms Campaign World Book, so it might focus on Volo and Elminister traveling across the Forgotten Realms.
This will not be happening until the current design directive at WotC changes.
Their current design directive is not to give us any more lore than is strictly necessary for the current adventure. They have kept things as vague as possible, created more questions than they've answered, and avoided anything that doesn't have a direct, right-now connection to what they're currently doing.
We will not see anything resembling a world book or campaign guide any time soon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 18:36:54
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I am expecting some sort of adventure tie-in to whatever plot they have planned for the set at least, but yeah-not a setting book. MTG sets always have some crazy apocalyptic multifaction war/disaster thing going on in them, and I just don't see wotc breaking that tradition for a D&D set. It's a big event, and not just because of the IP-first 'normal' set in two decades that hasn't taken place within the mtg setting-last time being Portal Three Kingdoms. It will surely have a lot of eyes on it, and I just don't see them holding back for it. I would be *shocked* if nothing materialized on the D&D side of things for this event.
So we'll probably have some big crises that threatens the realms, five factions divided up by color combinations. Some locations might be razed and some characters will probably die and some new ones might be introduced. There will probably be some adventure planned to coincide with the release of the set so D&D players can play through the events of the set. All of that seems like a fairly safe-ish bet IMO. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 20:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
I am expecting some sort of adventure tie-in to whatever plot they have planned for the set at least, but yeah-not a setting book. MTG sets always have some crazy apocalyptic multifaction war/disaster thing going on in them, and I just don't see wotc breaking that tradition for a D&D set. It's a big event, and not just because of the IP-first 'normal' set in two decades that hasn't taken place within the mtg setting-last time being Portal Three Kingdoms. It will surely have a lot of eyes on it, and I just don't see them holding back for it. I would be *shocked* if nothing materialized on the D&D side of things for this event.
So we'll probably have some big crises that threatens the realms, five factions divided up by color combinations. Some locations might be razed and some characters will probably die and some new ones might be introduced. There will probably be some adventure planned to coincide with the release of the set so D&D players can play through the events of the set. All of that seems like a fairly safe-ish bet IMO.
The set is called Dungeons and Dragons: Adventures in the Forgotten Realms, that name doesn't suggest an an apocalyptic story line to me, it suggests exploration.
I think the most simular MtG sets to this one will be Dominaria and Eldraine, with abit of Theros Beyond Death, neither of which had apocalyptic stories. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 20:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Instead of Planeswalker drama, I think the story for the set will be to set things up for a Forgotten Realms Campaign World Book, so it might focus on Volo and Elminister traveling across the Forgotten Realms.
This will not be happening until the current design directive at WotC changes.
Their current design directive is not to give us any more lore than is strictly necessary for the current adventure. They have kept things as vague as possible, created more questions than they've answered, and avoided anything that doesn't have a direct, right-now connection to what they're currently doing.
We will not see anything resembling a world book or campaign guide any time soon.
We have entered a new era of 5e, so the old assumptions no longer apply. They are spending well over, +$300,000 on art for the set, plus more money on marketing. They will not waste that on just a Adventure book, although it could be both Adventure Book and a World Book. We are talking hundreds of pieces of art for different locations, creatures, characters, artifacts, and spells.
And books like EGtWv and E: RftLW have raised the bar for 5e settings. Word is is that even WotC isn't happy with the SCAG and they are being pressured to explore more none white majority regions of FR. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 20:35:49
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Eldaraine was pretty low-stakes for a mtg story, but Dominaria and Theros both were pretty high-stakes, with world changing crises going in their storylines. Dominaria had an elder demon almost taking over the plane, and Theros had full on 'war among the gods' stuff going on and ended with the Zeus equivalent being imprisoned in the underworld. Big stuff.
I'm not saying I'm expecting something like what happened on Mirrodin, Zendikar, Tarkir, or Innistrad, because that would be akin to dropping another Spellplague on the Realms, and I don't think WoTC is going to do anything that drastic again anytime particularly soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if whatever they have planned is pretty significant. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 22:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This will not be happening until the current design directive at WotC changes.
Their current design directive is not to give us any more lore than is strictly necessary for the current adventure. They have kept things as vague as possible, created more questions than they've answered, and avoided anything that doesn't have a direct, right-now connection to what they're currently doing.
We will not see anything resembling a world book or campaign guide any time soon.
We have entered a new era of 5e, so the old assumptions no longer apply. They are spending well over, +$300,000 on art for the set, plus more money on marketing. They will not waste that on just a Adventure book, although it could be both Adventure Book and a World Book. We are talking hundreds of pieces of art for different locations, creatures, characters, artifacts, and spells.
And books like EGtWv and E: RftLW have raised the bar for 5e settings. Word is is that even WotC isn't happy with the SCAG and they are being pressured to explore more none white majority regions of FR.
Spending money for art and marketing for MtG, their primary money driver, doesn't mean they're going to do a thing different with the setting that they've proven to regard as nothing more than a place to drop anything and everything. Remember, Hasbro bought WotC for Magic -- it wasn't for D&D and it certainly wasn't for the Realms.
It's not an old assumption -- it is a proven track record. I'll not believe they're going to do anything to develop the setting until I see more proof than a tie-in with their biggest property.
Until they announce a new world book/campaign guide, I'm not holding my breath. If they announce one, I'll happily take back these words and I'll call my FLGS to hold one for me... But I don't expect to have to do that until 6E is out. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 22:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This will not be happening until the current design directive at WotC changes.
Their current design directive is not to give us any more lore than is strictly necessary for the current adventure. They have kept things as vague as possible, created more questions than they've answered, and avoided anything that doesn't have a direct, right-now connection to what they're currently doing.
We will not see anything resembling a world book or campaign guide any time soon.
We have entered a new era of 5e, so the old assumptions no longer apply. They are spending well over, +$300,000 on art for the set, plus more money on marketing. They will not waste that on just a Adventure book, although it could be both Adventure Book and a World Book. We are talking hundreds of pieces of art for different locations, creatures, characters, artifacts, and spells.
And books like EGtWv and E: RftLW have raised the bar for 5e settings. Word is is that even WotC isn't happy with the SCAG and they are being pressured to explore more none white majority regions of FR.
Spending money for art and marketing for MtG, their primary money driver, doesn't mean they're going to do a thing different with the setting that they've proven to regard as nothing more than a place to drop anything and everything. Remember, Hasbro bought WotC for Magic -- it wasn't for D&D and it certainly wasn't for the Realms.
It's not an old assumption -- it is a proven track record. I'll not believe they're going to do anything to develop the setting until I see more proof than a tie-in with their biggest property.
Until they announce a new world book/campaign guide, I'm not holding my breath. If they announce one, I'll happily take back these words and I'll call my FLGS to hold one for me... But I don't expect to have to do that until 6E is out.
I understand your cynicism, it's well earned, but it's not just the MtG tie in, it's BG3, it's Dark Alliance, and other FR products and a general change in how they do setting books, compared to when the SCAG was released. And the current politics surrounding D&D right now, WotC wants to do more in FR none Europe "white" regions,and of the classic D&D settings, none are as diverse as FR or have as many regions not based on Europe. FR has Turmish (Black Democracy), Chult, Tashelar, Samarache, Mulahorand, Unther, Chessenta (its based on Greece,but it's racial make up still Mulan and Turmish based), Calimishan, The Shining South, and outside of Faerun Zakhara, Kara Tur, Maztica, Katashaka, Osse, Archrome, and the Anadian Halflings (black Ptah worshipping Hapflings from Anadia in Realmspace). |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2021 : 22:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Eldaraine was pretty low-stakes for a mtg story, but Dominaria and Theros both were pretty high-stakes, with world changing crises going in their storylines. Dominaria had an elder demon almost taking over the plane, and Theros had full on 'war among the gods' stuff going on and ended with the Zeus equivalent being imprisoned in the underworld. Big stuff.
I'm not saying I'm expecting something like what happened on Mirrodin, Zendikar, Tarkir, or Innistrad, because that would be akin to dropping another Spellplague on the Realms, and I don't think WoTC is going to do anything that drastic again anytime particularly soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if whatever they have planned is pretty significant.
A war between Gods on Theros is just another Tuesday. Seriously the Gods war was more in previous sets, the prime story was Elspeths escape from the Underworld, at it's core it's a personal story. Beyond that we really didn't get a story for Theros Beyond Death, which angered many folks, which lead to the current way stories are handled in Zendikar Rising, Kaldheim, and Strixhaven.
I thought Dominaria was mostly a celebration of its history and a chance to kill one of Lilianna's demons, a dangerous powerful threat, but not on the scare of say Battle for Zendikar or War of the Spark, more along the lines of Eldritch Moon or the Original Ravnica block.
And if they do do something major it actually makes a Campaign Setting World Book more likely, not less, because the SCAG will be so out of date by then as to be even more useless. We need a book updated to the current year in FR, too much has happen since the SCAG which was really just a regional guide with crumbs for the rest of FR.
It could be linked to the fact that they removed the SCAGs references to the Wall of the Faithless and that Starlight Enclave the next Drizzt Novel has Drizzt saving everyone soul (aka I'm pretty sure Drizzt destroys the wall in this book saving the souls that make it up).
Or it could be, something else entirely, like a Timespiral type of Event triggered by Temporal Obilesks going off all at once in different directions, or someone opens somekind of Gateway between Faerun/D&D Multuverse and MtG Multiverse via the Far Realms. Or maybe it will tie in with BG3. |
Edited by - Gyor on 21 Feb 2021 23:04:37 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2021 : 04:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Eldaraine was pretty low-stakes for a mtg story, but Dominaria and Theros both were pretty high-stakes, with world changing crises going in their storylines. Dominaria had an elder demon almost taking over the plane, and Theros had full on 'war among the gods' stuff going on and ended with the Zeus equivalent being imprisoned in the underworld. Big stuff.
I'm not saying I'm expecting something like what happened on Mirrodin, Zendikar, Tarkir, or Innistrad, because that would be akin to dropping another Spellplague on the Realms, and I don't think WoTC is going to do anything that drastic again anytime particularly soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if whatever they have planned is pretty significant.
A war between Gods on Theros is just another Tuesday. Seriously the Gods war was more in previous sets, the prime story was Elspeths escape from the Underworld, at it's core it's a personal story. Beyond that we really didn't get a story for Theros Beyond Death, which angered many folks, which lead to the current way stories are handled in Zendikar Rising, Kaldheim, and Strixhaven.
I thought Dominaria was mostly a celebration of its history and a chance to kill one of Lilianna's demons, a dangerous powerful threat, but not on the scare of say Battle for Zendikar or War of the Spark, more along the lines of Eldritch Moon or the Original Ravnica block.
And if they do do something major it actually makes a Campaign Setting World Book more likely, not less, because the SCAG will be so out of date by then as to be even more useless. We need a book updated to the current year in FR, too much has happen since the SCAG which was really just a regional guide with crumbs for the rest of FR.
It could be linked to the fact that they removed the SCAGs references to the Wall of the Faithless and that Starlight Enclave the next Drizzt Novel has Drizzt saving everyone soul (aka I'm pretty sure Drizzt destroys the wall in this book saving the souls that make it up).
Or it could be, something else entirely, like a Timespiral type of Event triggered by Temporal Obilesks going off all at once in different directions, or someone opens somekind of Gateway between Faerun/D&D Multuverse and MtG Multiverse via the Far Realms. Or maybe it will tie in with BG3.
A war between the gods is still an apocalyptic high-stakes event. It being 'just Tuesday' though proves my point that MtG loves those kinds of stories. I mean heck, the last set WoTC ran was literally Ragnarok. Can't get much more apocalyptic than that.
As for Dominaria, I think it's an interesting case. It's clearly the MtG plane most comparable to FR as a setting, but also in its importance to MtG as it's flagship setting- so we might look to it for some signs of what WoTC might do in the FR set.
But an equivalent turn of events to what happened on Dominaria would still be a major deal. Rage of Demons would probably be the nearest equivalent.
You might be onto something with the next Drizzt book. IIRC both the book and the FR MTG set are coming out in the third quarter of this year. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2021 : 07:36:42
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Alright, hold your horses. It looks like WoTC's stance has evolved on the matter:
"As to whether the Forgotten Realms are now canonically part of Magic's Multiverse, for now, the answer is no. But we may change our minds in the future if it makes sense and is a fun net positive for Magic and D&D."
From their website:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/magics-voyages-universes-beyond-2021-02-25
So it looks like they are actually considering it. probably depends on how well received the FR set is. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2021 : 13:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Alright, hold your horses. It looks like WoTC's stance has evolved on the matter:
"As to whether the Forgotten Realms are now canonically part of Magic's Multiverse, for now, the answer is no. But we may change our minds in the future if it makes sense and is a fun net positive for Magic and D&D."
From their website:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/magics-voyages-universes-beyond-2021-02-25
So it looks like they are actually considering it. probably depends on how well received the FR set is.
This places the relationship between D&D multiverse and MtG multiverse is a weird limbo, it's not canon, but it could be later. I say just do it already, because the relationship is confusing. |
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John Daker
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2021 : 17:49:15
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| Well, when I wrote those long posts a few days ago I certainly didn’t expect WotC to provide me so promptly with even more reason to worry. But they have. Timely customer (dis)service, I’ll give them that! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2021 : 19:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Well, when I wrote those long posts a few days ago I certainly didn’t expect WotC to provide me so promptly with even more reason to worry. But they have. Timely customer (dis)service, I’ll give them that!
Its very true, you can cast Planeshift, Etherealness, and Astral Plane in Theros and Ravenica which has huge implications for those settings (such as both Planes gaving an Ethereal plane abd access to the D&D Astral Plane). They have already merged the universes in all, but name and not figuring out how they fit together is being make things increasinly incoherent.
I fhink they should either make Theros and Ravnica D&D world seperate, but simular to the MtG Ravnica and Theros, or just official merge the settings with someking of Mending 2.0. |
Edited by - Gyor on 26 Feb 2021 19:26:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2021 : 20:18:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by John Daker
Well, when I wrote those long posts a few days ago I certainly didn’t expect WotC to provide me so promptly with even more reason to worry. But they have. Timely customer (dis)service, I’ll give them that!
Its very true, you can cast Planeshift, Etherealness, and Astral Plane in Theros and Ravenica which has huge implications for those settings (such as both Planes gaving an Ethereal plane abd access to the D&D Astral Plane). They have already merged the universes in all, but name and not figuring out how they fit together is being make things increasinly incoherent.
I fhink they should either make Theros and Ravnica D&D world seperate, but simular to the MtG Ravnica and Theros, or just official merge the settings with someking of Mending 2.0.
The way Theros is written... that its history is somewhat mutable... that people aren't quite sure what's beyond the horizon... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Theros is something LIKE (as in similar to) a domain of Ravenloft. By that I mean, the gods are like the dark lords but share control instead of one being in control, and that the memories of the mortals kind of "shift" based on changes made, etc.... The main difference would be that its not entirely based on horror per se.
If this is the case, then its planar travelling just brings you to some "space" in control by the gods there who have turned Theros into something like a prison world. It may be entirely isolated.
Then take into account that places like Ravnica is so small... and one could see it also being some kind of "bordered space". In essence, maybe ravenloft and horror isn't the only place where portions of worlds are copied and some factor in them amplified and played upon by powerful beings. This might be why MtG is separate? This might be what makes planeswalkers special because they can travel between prisons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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D&D and MtG Multiverses not merging
