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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  16:29:23  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I have a player who plays a vampire who is trying to take over Dragonspear and is attempting to form an alliance with Larloch who is just north of dragonspear. Thing is: Baldur's gate is just south of the warlock's crypt and after the crusade against Caelar in "Siege of Dragonspear" I immagine Baldur's gate forces are stretched thin what with all the refugees coming from the war. And while I was considering this I thought: why did the lords alliance (which includes Baldur's gate I immagine) tolerate the close presence of Larloch whit his armies of undead all this time? I mean, if to fight Caelar's crusade they can unite the forces of the Dalelands, Waterdeep and neverwinter why not do the same for the obviously evil powerful lich just north of Baldur's gate? Aren't they worried of what he could do if only he had suddenly a conqueror's fancy?

Jack of blades

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  18:34:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So I have a player who plays a vampire who is trying to take over Dragonspear and is attempting to form an alliance with Larloch who is just north of dragonspear. Thing is: Baldur's gate is just south of the warlock's crypt and after the crusade against Caelar in "Siege of Dragonspear" I immagine Baldur's gate forces are stretched thin what with all the refugees coming from the war. And while I was considering this I thought: why did the lords alliance (which includes Baldur's gate I immagine) tolerate the close presence of Larloch whit his armies of undead all this time? I mean, if to fight Caelar's crusade they can unite the forces of the Dalelands, Waterdeep and neverwinter why not do the same for the obviously evil powerful lich just north of Baldur's gate? Aren't they worried of what he could do if only he had suddenly a conqueror's fancy?



I'd say there are three reasons:

He's not exactly local -- there's a good distance between him and Baldur's Gate

He's not bothering anyone -- he has oodles of liches, sure, but he's not trying to take over the world with them or anything.

It's Larloch. Anyone tries to throw down with him, they're dealing with a millennia-old lich with dozens of liches at his command. It'd be quicker and less painful to throw yourself into a volcano. Also, Larloch is smart enough and sneaky enough to see something like this coming from a mile away, and easily provide distractions elsewhere. Wanna raise an army to go after him? Oh, dang, there's suddenly an orc horde coming at you from the opposite direction.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  01:44:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Larloch wanted to conquer the planet, there's not much anyone could do to actually, y'know, stop him. The millennia-old ancient lich is not so much a person as a force of nature, so there's probably unspoken agreement not to do anything to annoy him.

The other question is why would Larloch give a hoot about conquering a bunch of cities? At the level of power Larloch operates at, conquering the planet is sort of the thing he'd do as a sort of inconsequential hobby.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  04:38:40  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The deep web of Larloch's mind is well beyond the worry about city-states. Like others have mentioned, he is essentially beyond the power of some forces of nature. The only reason he might ever "conquer" a city would only be related to thwarting the goals of some other mega-power such that Baldur's Gate is less than a pawn in a game of chess.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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J Mc
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  06:22:31  Show Profile Send J Mc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's also that whole chosen thing
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  10:50:35  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch aside, there is also the political will behind the assembled armies (made plural for a reason). Dragonspear ruin was a pressing threat that severed an important artery of overland trade and ruined farmlands among other nasty things boiling out from that central location. The far-flung nations were all directly affected by this disaster with the impact felt by the common people all the way up to the national treasuries. Ergo, they could all agree that this threat needed to be eliminated for the common good of each nation and the soldiers could understand why they had to march into unclaimed wilderness - to protect the people back home from further suffering. Whether it was to stop invading armies of genocidal creatures, stem the tide of displaced refugees, restore the farmlands to mitigate imminent famine, or to safeguard the flow of wealth that grows prosperity, each group of soldiers from each regional power has a reason to fight with a singular source that all can ally under one banner against.

As has been mentioned, Larloch did nothing to be worthy of mention in national discourse or pub room arguments. Baldur's Gate and maybe a handful of smaller settlements are the only beneficiaries of removing this threat. The actual benefits are intangible since there has been no impact on trade, food production, overland movement, or anything else that the commoner can point to as something that would be improved about their lives for successfully marching on Larloch's home. Nothing bad seems to have come from leaving him alone for over 100 years compared to what would be put under immediate threat when poking that hornet's nest. Why would Mirabar, Loudwater, the Dales, Waterdeep, Cormyr, or anyone else send their troops into harm's way and antagonize something that has not bothered them just for the sake of Baldurs Gate and that regional power's feelings of insecurity over what is essentially their problem?

For an example of how wrong everything can go one needs look no farther than Amn. Amn was written as a stable country of nearly three million people with a professional standing army and a deep war chest that was virtually cut in half by less than three thousand "kobolds, goblins, hill giants and ogres, supported by Cyricists." The threat Amn faced is insignificant compared to the power Larloch wields, and his legion of soul-stealing, spell throwing, wall-passing undead.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  12:58:13  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Larloch aside, there is also the political will behind the assembled armies (made plural for a reason). Dragonspear ruin was a pressing threat that severed an important artery of overland trade and ruined farmlands among other nasty things boiling out from that central location. The far-flung nations were all directly affected by this disaster with the impact felt by the common people all the way up to the national treasuries. Ergo, they could all agree that this threat needed to be eliminated for the common good of each nation and the soldiers could understand why they had to march into unclaimed wilderness - to protect the people back home from further suffering. Whether it was to stop invading armies of genocidal creatures, stem the tide of displaced refugees, restore the farmlands to mitigate imminent famine, or to safeguard the flow of wealth that grows prosperity, each group of soldiers from each regional power has a reason to fight with a singular source that all can ally under one banner against.

As has been mentioned, Larloch did nothing to be worthy of mention in national discourse or pub room arguments. Baldur's Gate and maybe a handful of smaller settlements are the only beneficiaries of removing this threat. The actual benefits are intangible since there has been no impact on trade, food production, overland movement, or anything else that the commoner can point to as something that would be improved about their lives for successfully marching on Larloch's home. Nothing bad seems to have come from leaving him alone for over 100 years compared to what would be put under immediate threat when poking that hornet's nest. Why would Mirabar, Loudwater, the Dales, Waterdeep, Cormyr, or anyone else send their troops into harm's way and antagonize something that has not bothered them just for the sake of Baldurs Gate and that regional power's feelings of insecurity over what is essentially their problem?

For an example of how wrong everything can go one needs look no farther than Amn. Amn was written as a stable country of nearly three million people with a professional standing army and a deep war chest that was virtually cut in half by less than three thousand "kobolds, goblins, hill giants and ogres, supported by Cyricists." The threat Amn faced is insignificant compared to the power Larloch wields, and his legion of soul-stealing, spell throwing, wall-passing undead.



Yeah I also have the feeling the other factions of the lords alliance would not care about a vampire taking Dragonspear in Larloch's name. In my campaign I introduced Gurn Coldheart, as a newborn lich, who gained lichdom by helping another lich escape Larloch's grasp, just like in Siege of Dragonspear, and is now searching for powerful liches as allies to help him escape Larloch's grasp. According to the game there is also na "Ancient enemy" of the dwarfs trapped under Dragonspear who Gurn wanted to free but one of the players stopped him. After that when the vampire player asked Larloch to support him in taking Dragonspear I roleplayed him so that he didn't really seem to care about this small abbandoned fort but he was still interested in the lich trapped down there. The player vampire then was actually pretty smart because he suggested that since the area around dragonspear is uncontested land he could start to invite farmers there with the proposal of gifting free food since his vampires didn't need food but THEY DID need humans to settle their land as to feed on them. And since Baldur's gate has just fought a war against Calar Argent htere are a lot of hungry farmers who lost their farms to the war...

Jack of blades
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  13:05:03  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

So I have a player who plays a vampire who is trying to take over Dragonspear and is attempting to form an alliance with Larloch who is just north of dragonspear. Thing is: Baldur's gate is just south of the warlock's crypt and after the crusade against Caelar in "Siege of Dragonspear" I immagine Baldur's gate forces are stretched thin what with all the refugees coming from the war. And while I was considering this I thought: why did the lords alliance (which includes Baldur's gate I immagine) tolerate the close presence of Larloch whit his armies of undead all this time? I mean, if to fight Caelar's crusade they can unite the forces of the Dalelands, Waterdeep and neverwinter why not do the same for the obviously evil powerful lich just north of Baldur's gate? Aren't they worried of what he could do if only he had suddenly a conqueror's fancy?



I'd say there are three reasons:

He's not exactly local -- there's a good distance between him and Baldur's Gate

He's not bothering anyone -- he has oodles of liches, sure, but he's not trying to take over the world with them or anything.

It's Larloch. Anyone tries to throw down with him, they're dealing with a millennia-old lich with dozens of liches at his command. It'd be quicker and less painful to throw yourself into a volcano. Also, Larloch is smart enough and sneaky enough to see something like this coming from a mile away, and easily provide distractions elsewhere. Wanna raise an army to go after him? Oh, dang, there's suddenly an orc horde coming at you from the opposite direction.



True, I suspect one of my players, when he finds about the fort being taken by a vampire under larloch, will ask the lords alliance to help. I think I will just make them say these 3 arguments you just said. Dragonspear is close to the Warlock's Crypt and is close to Baldur's Gate (kinda) but just a while ago it was a spooky fort in uncontested land. Even if there is potential for this vampire to gain power I don't think they'd think that far ahead when they just finished fighting a war. There is also the fact that in Baldur's Gate alliance 2 there is a literal vampire army attacking Baldur's gate so...

Jack of blades
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  14:15:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jan 2021 14:17:17
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  15:16:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.





Ed himself said it was 60+ liches.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  15:42:10  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.




Actually I agree on this viewpoint of the unreliable narrator. Especially in a fantasy setting inspired by medieval Europe like Forgotten Realms. Still, organisations like the lord's alliance and by association Baldur's Gate DO have spies. I'm using Matthew Colville's Stronghold and followers and i'm making baldurs gate grand dukes make gather intel checks. I'm still making the DC very high because, as you said, there is hardly any way to infiltrate Larloch's domain. I immagine what is known is only what Larloch wants to be known. Adventurers would arrive, probably encouraged by Larloch himself, only to be horribly killed by Larloch's minions who would conveniently always leave just ONE adventurer alive to tell stories of the horrible lair of Larloch and of its horrors.


Jack of blades
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  15:50:22  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.





Ed himself said it was 60+ liches.


I immagine all of them in high positions like generals or something.

Jack of blades
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  18:01:24  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

...Yeah I also have the feeling the other factions of the lords alliance would not care about a vampire taking Dragonspear in Larloch's name. In my campaign I introduced Gurn Coldheart, as a newborn lich, who gained lichdom by helping another lich escape Larloch's grasp, just like in Siege of Dragonspear, and is now searching for powerful liches as allies to help him escape Larloch's grasp. According to the game there is also na "Ancient enemy" of the dwarfs trapped under Dragonspear who Gurn wanted to free but one of the players stopped him. After that when the vampire player asked Larloch to support him in taking Dragonspear I roleplayed him so that he didn't really seem to care about this small abbandoned fort but he was still interested in the lich trapped down there. The player vampire then was actually pretty smart because he suggested that since the area around dragonspear is uncontested land he could start to invite farmers there with the proposal of gifting free food since his vampires didn't need food but THEY DID need humans to settle their land as to feed on them. And since Baldur's gate has just fought a war against Calar Argent htere are a lot of hungry farmers who lost their farms to the war...

1) Dragonspear represents a choke hold on the Trade Way. Whomever controls Dragonspear controls that corridor of commerce. Two campaigns were fought driving out "evil" influences and a garrison of battle priests was established in the ruin after each one. So all the powers interested in uninterrupted trade moving through the area have a vested interest in keeping the ruined castle uninhabited.

2) The lands of Daggerford suffered greatly from each occupation of that fort (first the hobgoblins, then the devils) that overran their southern farmlands. The Barony of Vaelendaer controlling "the lands north of Dragonspear Castle, in the crook of land between the Misty Forest and the High Moor, but has not been settled for two centuries or more." has been actively trying to repopulate this area but has failed because of the threat Dragonspear has been. Other than long-standing claims to the land, Daggerford still has active patrols down the Trade Way to just North of Dragonspear looking for things amiss.

The ruin is neither abandoned nor unmonitored, especially with the presence of the Hold of Battle Lions. Active recruitment is already trying to get people to recolonize existing farmlands under the auspices of existing nearby human governments. Another vampire lord, the Baron of Blood, may also take notice if an upstart is planted so near his stomping grounds. There is no way this plan to set up a vampire lord at Dragonspear could fly under the radar without some serious rewriting of the results of the 2nd Dragonspear Campaign (like having the allied powers LOSE, even after the portal is shut, and the region between the Winding Water and Delimbiyr rivers becoming abandoned including cessation of commerce on the Trade Way).

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  18:52:12  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

...Yeah I also have the feeling the other factions of the lords alliance would not care about a vampire taking Dragonspear in Larloch's name. In my campaign I introduced Gurn Coldheart, as a newborn lich, who gained lichdom by helping another lich escape Larloch's grasp, just like in Siege of Dragonspear, and is now searching for powerful liches as allies to help him escape Larloch's grasp. According to the game there is also na "Ancient enemy" of the dwarfs trapped under Dragonspear who Gurn wanted to free but one of the players stopped him. After that when the vampire player asked Larloch to support him in taking Dragonspear I roleplayed him so that he didn't really seem to care about this small abbandoned fort but he was still interested in the lich trapped down there. The player vampire then was actually pretty smart because he suggested that since the area around dragonspear is uncontested land he could start to invite farmers there with the proposal of gifting free food since his vampires didn't need food but THEY DID need humans to settle their land as to feed on them. And since Baldur's gate has just fought a war against Calar Argent htere are a lot of hungry farmers who lost their farms to the war...

1) Dragonspear represents a choke hold on the Trade Way. Whomever controls Dragonspear controls that corridor of commerce. Two campaigns were fought driving out "evil" influences and a garrison of battle priests was established in the ruin after each one. So all the powers interested in uninterrupted trade moving through the area have a vested interest in keeping the ruined castle uninhabited.

2) The lands of Daggerford suffered greatly from each occupation of that fort (first the hobgoblins, then the devils) that overran their southern farmlands. The Barony of Vaelendaer controlling "the lands north of Dragonspear Castle, in the crook of land between the Misty Forest and the High Moor, but has not been settled for two centuries or more." has been actively trying to repopulate this area but has failed because of the threat Dragonspear has been. Other than long-standing claims to the land, Daggerford still has active patrols down the Trade Way to just North of Dragonspear looking for things amiss.

The ruin is neither abandoned nor unmonitored, especially with the presence of the Hold of Battle Lions. Active recruitment is already trying to get people to recolonize existing farmlands under the auspices of existing nearby human governments. Another vampire lord, the Baron of Blood, may also take notice if an upstart is planted so near his stomping grounds. There is no way this plan to set up a vampire lord at Dragonspear could fly under the radar without some serious rewriting of the results of the 2nd Dragonspear Campaign (like having the allied powers LOSE, even after the portal is shut, and the region between the Winding Water and Delimbiyr rivers becoming abandoned including cessation of commerce on the Trade Way).


I admit I'm not as familiar with the lore as I though then. I also didn't know about the baron of blood so I'll have to research him. Still the vampire isn't ruling directly. He had his lieutenant bite one of the members of the lords alliance holding the fort while the other players are in Avernus trying to search for Caelar and the Bhaalspawn to seal the portal. So he has control of the person in charge who is now a vampire spawn except nobody knows he is one.

Jack of blades
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  19:25:56  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

I admit I'm not as familiar with the lore as I though then. I also didn't know about the baron of blood so I'll have to research him. Still the vampire isn't ruling directly. He had his lieutenant bite one of the members of the lords alliance holding the fort while the other players are in Avernus trying to search for Caelar and the Bhaalspawn to seal the portal. So he has control of the person in charge who is now a vampire spawn except nobody knows he is one.



Does this rule
quote:
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.
still apply?

If so there must be a coffin. A funeral. Of course possible the officer was on leave so death not noticed.

Edited formatting

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 29 Jan 2021 19:28:34
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Erevan Illesere
Acolyte

Italy
38 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  19:34:00  Show Profile Send Erevan Illesere a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

I admit I'm not as familiar with the lore as I though then. I also didn't know about the baron of blood so I'll have to research him. Still the vampire isn't ruling directly. He had his lieutenant bite one of the members of the lords alliance holding the fort while the other players are in Avernus trying to search for Caelar and the Bhaalspawn to seal the portal. So he has control of the person in charge who is now a vampire spawn except nobody knows he is one.



Does this rule
quote:
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.
still apply?

If so there must be a coffin. A funeral. Of course possible the officer was on leave so death not noticed.

Edited formatting



Yep, the member of the lords alliance was ambushed by the vampire players forces while he was searching for remnants of Caelar's forces around dragonspear. They killed his men and buried him for 2 days after draining him. Then they ordered him to return to Dragonspear and tell the allied forces taht he was ambushed by the remnant of Caelar's forces but managed to escape.

Jack of blades

Edited by - Erevan Illesere on 29 Jan 2021 19:36:12
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  20:32:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.





Ed himself said it was 60+ liches.



Exactly, someone will say that it is x, y, or z amount, but they'll usually do so in some non-commital way, especially when you get into questions like "ok, so what all are they doing because its obvious they aren't actively in any other documented plans?" Then it will be there's an NDA which prevents telling us anything about it.

To be clear, I'm not trying to disparage Ed or anyone else or call them wrong. I'm just saying we've seen no real evidence to support that he has that many liches available, and hell for all we know many of the "liches" we've seen under his control could have been mummies, skeletons with spells imbued, etc... If it had directly affected the campaign world in any significant way (and maybe someone knows somewhere where it did, but I don't recall any instances). In one person's campaign it may only be a dozen and it would still be believable given what we've seen of Larloch. In another person's campaign it might be over a hundred and he keeps half of them busy around the clock just crafting magic items. Prior to them actually showing Larloch in a novel and having him bested, saying he's unbeatable might have been more believable, but he has been bested fairly recently.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  00:25:09  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch would have zero interest in an alliance with your player.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  01:08:53  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Larloch would have zero interest in an alliance with your player.

-- George Krashos



Alliance for sure not.

Manipulation for some unseen end that even we in the 3rd person omniscience can't comprehend most likely. lol

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 Jan 2021 01:09:21
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  05:35:28  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

... I admit I'm not as familiar with the lore as I thought then. I also didn't know about the baron of blood so I'll have to research him. Still the vampire isn't ruling directly. He had his lieutenant bite one of the members of the lords alliance holding the fort while the other players are in Avernus trying to search for Caelar and the Bhaalspawn to seal the portal. So he has control of the person in charge who is now a vampire spawn except nobody knows he is one.

Nor am I as familiar with the lore. The Shining Crusade was a civil war of which I had not been previously aware. I had a long write-up regarding this new revelation largely about how this new (to me) lore had no discernible effect in terms of lost lives, lost wealth, lost production, or even changed beliefs - that the events of this anomaly happened in a sandbox that created no changes in population, trade, or politics. I spent a good amount of time typing how things should be effected by this result that would have changed the attitudes and cultures of all the civilizations North of the Tethyran border. Then I thought, "what's the point?" Nobody cared then. Nobody cares now.

So, yes, all the battle hardened priests that have much experience with beating down devils - the very things with awesome cosmic powers that live to deceive, pervert, and corrupt - are just too stupid to ever believe that one of their own could be turned into an agent of evil or that they would ever engage in training that would help them discover magical devices and supernatural effects that would hide the presence of evil entities. Logic is just wasted effort. Hubris for all NPCs! Murderhobos for the win! Oy! Oy! Oy!

No, none of this is useful.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  11:13:21  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erevan Illesere

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll throw out a few other things

Most people don't know who the hell Larloch is, because he keeps to himself. We as the outsider reading roleplaying material know how powerful he is. However, for the people actually living there, they don't see a big stat block. They just hear people whispering "yeah, that guy over there is dangerous. Someone told me he has hundreds or maybe even thousands of liches under his control". Probably 90% of those people then go "man, that guy has done some great PR to make people afraid of him. As if someone could have hundreds of liches in one area and keep them under control."..... and for all we know, those naysayers just may be correct.... the number of liches he controls may not be "hundreds" or "thousands" and might even barely be a dozen. I know someone will likely come along and quote something said by someone, but honestly... uncertain narrator is something that should always be considered, especially when you hear stories like this. After all, how do they know its this many liches? Did they have a huge meeting and the source personally verified each lich he saw was even real? In a world of illusion, simulacrums, implanted memories, etc... even someone saying "they saw it" and believing what they say doesn't mean its true.




Actually I agree on this viewpoint of the unreliable narrator. Especially in a fantasy setting inspired by medieval Europe like Forgotten Realms. Still, organisations like the lord's alliance and by association Baldur's Gate DO have spies. I'm using Matthew Colville's Stronghold and followers and i'm making baldurs gate grand dukes make gather intel checks. I'm still making the DC very high because, as you said, there is hardly any way to infiltrate Larloch's domain. I immagine what is known is only what Larloch wants to be known. Adventurers would arrive, probably encouraged by Larloch himself, only to be horribly killed by Larloch's minions who would conveniently always leave just ONE adventurer alive to tell stories of the horrible lair of Larloch and of its horrors.





I'm relatively certain that Larloch would have no reason to mess with adventurers who arrive peacefully and wish to parley. He was willing to deal with Szass Tam, after all, after killing every Red Wizard dumb enough to knock on his door.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  18:44:50  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tam, I think, was bringing him an artifact?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  19:07:56  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Tam, I think, was bringing him an artifact?



Yes indeed. Szass Tam returned with a mantle from the east (probably where Jikisdur crashed) he seized from Harper agents. In return, Larloch let him take the Death Moon Orb and Tharkorsil's Seat.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  21:59:17  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Tam, I think, was bringing him an artifact?



Yes indeed. Szass Tam returned with a mantle from the east (probably where Jikisdur crashed) he seized from Harper agents. In return, Larloch let him take the Death Moon Orb and Tharkorsil's Seat.



Thanks Delnyn...I had forgot what the trade was.

The Orb and Seat are vastly powerful items...the fact the older bone pile gave them so easily just shows how much power the fella has; such that even those powerful items were, for him, but a seeming pittance in barter.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2021 :  02:10:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

The Orb and Seat are vastly powerful items...the fact the older bone pile gave them so easily just shows how much power the fella has; such that even those powerful items were, for him, but a seeming pittance in barter.



My thinking is that it was, in some way, beneficial to Larloch to put those items in play again.

I'll be dipped if I could say how it benefitted him, but you don't get to be in Larloch's position without being smarter than the average bear. I think that if Larloch really wanted whatever Szass Tam had to offer, Larloch would have made other arrangements to get his hands on it -- through layers of intermediaries, so it wouldn't be traced back to him.

Since Larloch had other options, then it must have been to his benefit to release the artifacts. He may have even made sure Szass Tam knew about the artifacts, so that he'd want them.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2021 :  14:14:30  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


My thinking is that it was, in some way, beneficial to Larloch to put those items in play again.

I'll be dipped if I could say how it benefitted him, but you don't get to be in Larloch's position without being smarter than the average bear. I think that if Larloch really wanted whatever Szass Tam had to offer, Larloch would have made other arrangements to get his hands on it -- through layers of intermediaries, so it wouldn't be traced back to him.

Since Larloch had other options, then it must have been to his benefit to release the artifacts. He may have even made sure Szass Tam knew about the artifacts, so that he'd want them.



I would wager Larloch put tracers and "hack codes" on the Orb and Seat much like Sauron forged the One Ring to spy on and control all those who wore the other rings. One of my players back in the 1990's commented offhand that Larloch is probably sizing up Larloch as another acquisition to his "Gang of Sixty Plus". If Szass Tam succeeded in enslaving Eltab, Larloch could casually swoop in, enslave Tam in turn, thus getting a two-for-one deal. I told her that would be one hell of a campaign idea.

From 4 edition onward: Larloch hijacks Tam's Dread Ring ritual.
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