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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  03:46:57  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Are there any flying Netherese cities canonically that are completely unaccounted for? Ones that we don’t know what became of them when Karsus enacted his folly? I for one really loved that Rime featured a ruined one which had actually been destroyed prior to the fall. That to me, was some of the best lore we’ve gotten in 5e for FR.

What I’m really asking is if there are more out there under some forgotten glacier, in a desert, another continent, etc.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  05:16:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most of them are unaccounted for, really. We only know the locations of a few specific ones -- the rest are all presumed destroyed.

And even the ones we know of, we don't always have specifics. Mystra caught three -- but where? There may or may not be one in Firedrake Bay in Tethyr.

As I've commented previously, there is absolutely nothing that says that one or more enclaves weren't parked over other continents, and may have even survived the Fall more or less intact.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jan 2021 05:18:43
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  11:15:08  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the three that Mystra caught - Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath - all became short-lived successor states where they landed and succumbed to the growing Anauroch Desert. Larloch holed himself up in the mostly ruined enclave of Orbedal after he abandoned Jiksidur just prior to the fall that utterly destroyed that enclave. The write up at the Forgotten Realms wiki might be one of the best online resources for quickly looking up information for each of the known enclaves.
quote:
Netherese Empire page, Enclaves section
Akintaer: This enclave boasted a mighty army, who worshiped the god Targus.
Aquessir: Unlike other Netherese cities, the Shadowtop Borough maintained opened trade with nearby settlements, notably those of the elves.
Delia: Originally an island inhabited by elves and druids, this enclave was elevated by Lady Polaris and maintained its nature-appreciating culture and decor for some time, before it lost its way and was assimilated into the greater Netherese culture.
Doubloon: The former bandit's haven was elevated by Tempera of Fenwick as a rogue enclave that evaded the other cities of Netheril in pursuit of the magically-aided currency-counterfeiting scheme.
Eileanar: One of the last enclaves created, this city was the home of the legendary arcanist Karsus.
Farenway
Jethaere
Jiksidur: This city was ruled by the Sorcerer-King Larloch, who stood vigilant against the battlemages of Raumathar and the ruling Nentyarch of Narfell.
Jockteleg: After experiments on this enclave's mythallar went wrong, the nobles within were permanently polymorphed into voadkyn, resulting into their increased isolation and exclusion from the rest of the empire.
Lathery: Overseen by the arcanist Veridon, this industrious enclave flew over the Narrow Sea and adjusted their mythallar for a commercial fishing.
Lhaoda:
Maunator: Also known as Sunrest, this city fell when arcane research went awry resulting in disastrous consequences.
Negarath: Led by the arcanist Barze, the remnants of this enclave would go on to form a kingdom in the realm that came to be known as Vaasa.
Nhalloth: A floating city that rested above the waters of the Inner Sea.
Orbedal: The enclave of Sanctuary, ruled by Rhaugilath, was a haven of peace and serenity for the Netherese nobility.
Palter: Even among the enclaves of Netheril, the city ruled by archwizard Halavar was a bastion of magical innovation and progress.
Phylornel: This low-flying enclave never moved from its location above the Netheril River.
Sakkors: This enclave was formed from an inverted mountaintop, by the arcanist Xolund, who further imbued his sentience into the city's mythallar.
Selûnarra: Known as Opus in the Loross language, was transported to the Gates of the Moon by the goddess Selûne.
Spiel: A center of enlightenment, this enclave had a great number of universities and places of learning.
Synod: This aerial citadel was an sacerdotal sanctuary dedicated to Amaunator, Mystryl and Tyche, and was led by a pious archwizard.
Thultanthar: Led by the arcanist Telamont Tanthul, who conducted significant research on the Shadow Weave, this enclave survived the collapse of Netheril and returned to the Prime Material plane millennia later.
Thyndlamdrivvar: An enclave overseen by the arcanist Ander.
Tith Tilendrothael
Undrentide: This enclave floated over the southeastern region of the Empire, over the Eastern Forest.
Xinlenal: The first of the enclaves of Netheril, risen by the arcanist Ioulaum, paving the way for other Netherese archmages.
Ythryn: An enclave that housed mages searching for Ostoria, the ancient giant kingdom. The enclave fell over Icewind Dale, into the Reghed Glacier.

In short, YES!

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  12:32:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've mentioned before I'm using doubloon for my tharch of Luneira (its renamed), and I know why you are interested Seethyr.

One thing that pops in my head that might be worth playing with.... who says every flying enclave fell at Karsus' Folly. For instance, if another sufficiently powerful society sees a flying enclave encroaching on their territory.... instead of "killing all the land underneath them".... what if they came up with an idea of temporarily disabling their mythallar? What if they achieved such? All of a sudden this flying enclave with all its proud arcanists starts to go crashing to the ground. They turn to their magical items to escape... only they're "quasi-magic" items dependent on the mythallar as a power source. They crash. Some survive and the enemy closes in, and they draw that magic wand they rely on... that relies on that mythallar....

So, they yield... they surrender... and the beings that caused them all this distress realize "here's a people that we can take under our wing.... and steal their secrets... what was that mythallar thing they were using? They were too dependent on it, but it sounds like a great crystal based power that would be a great feather to have in our cap"

In this instance, the major players of the enclave may be dead and the remaining folk may know how to use magic, but not extremely well. They may start getting taught by the people that took them in. The history books may not "quite" get it right about how this relationship started and ended as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jan 2021 12:45:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  13:19:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

I thought the three that Mystra caught - Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath - all became short-lived successor states where they landed and succumbed to the growing Anauroch Desert.



True -- but we don't know exactly where or how they came down. Did they remain aloft? Did she gently set them on the ground? Did she transport the people to the ground and chuck the enclaves elsewhere?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2021 :  13:24:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I've mentioned before I'm using doubloon for my tharch of Luneira (its renamed), and I know why you are interested Seethyr.

One thing that pops in my head that might be worth playing with.... who says every flying enclave fell at Karsus' Folly. For instance, if another sufficiently powerful society sees a flying enclave encroaching on their territory.... instead of "killing all the land underneath them".... what if they came up with an idea of temporarily disabling their mythallar? What if they achieved such? All of a sudden this flying enclave with all its proud arcanists starts to go crashing to the ground. They turn to their magical items to escape... only they're "quasi-magic" items dependent on the mythallar as a power source. They crash. Some survive and the enemy closes in, and they draw that magic wand they rely on... that relies on that mythallar....

So, they yield... they surrender... and the beings that caused them all this distress realize "here's a people that we can take under our wing.... and steal their secrets... what was that mythallar thing they were using? They were too dependent on it, but it sounds like a great crystal based power that would be a great feather to have in our cap"

In this instance, the major players of the enclave may be dead and the remaining folk may know how to use magic, but not extremely well. They may start getting taught by the people that took them in. The history books may not "quite" get it right about how this relationship started and ended as well.



My still-nebulous idea for an enclave parked over another continent was that it had found a convenient place to "dock" -- perhaps a large lake, or something like a crater or the caldera of a dormant volcano -- allowing it to more or less land. When the Fall came, since it was parked, it remained intact. The mythallar went offline, but the city remained.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  00:47:03  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

I thought the three that Mystra caught - Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath - all became short-lived successor states where they landed and succumbed to the growing Anauroch Desert.



True -- but we don't know exactly where or how they came down. Did they remain aloft? Did she gently set them on the ground? Did she transport the people to the ground and chuck the enclaves elsewhere?



Lost Empires of Faerun has this on page 104:

"After Karsus’s Folly, the floating cities of Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath (also known as the Three Realms), settled slowly down to earth along Netheril’s southeastern frontier, saved by the grace of Mystra."

To save the people, she probably let the "tip" of the enclave enter the ground far enough to make sure the city would stand upright so there could be 3 "plateaus" out there with the remains of the city on top.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  04:32:27  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  14:28:55  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.



Well, now, you had to ask that. That can be determined but some more data is needed:

1. How long was magic busted?
2. Was magic used on the cities to make sure the air stayed breathable no matter how high the city went?
3. Was every city roughly the same size?

One thing your question does guarantee, though, is that Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath were all cities that were closest to but not too much above 26,246 ft in altitude. If magic was used to keep the air breathable and a city was too high, the people would have all died of a lack of oxygen so Mystra would not have been able to save them. It would also be those cities that could have impacted the environment the most since they would have had the highest velocity on impact with the ground.

Or, and this is an interesting question, did she save those three cities, not because of they were the only ones she could but instead because the archwizards there had the least amount of hubris and thus were worthy of saving so that knowledge of magic was kept alive by those that had the right attitude towards it?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  15:28:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I've mentioned before I'm using doubloon for my tharch of Luneira (its renamed), and I know why you are interested Seethyr.

One thing that pops in my head that might be worth playing with.... who says every flying enclave fell at Karsus' Folly. For instance, if another sufficiently powerful society sees a flying enclave encroaching on their territory.... instead of "killing all the land underneath them".... what if they came up with an idea of temporarily disabling their mythallar? What if they achieved such? All of a sudden this flying enclave with all its proud arcanists starts to go crashing to the ground. They turn to their magical items to escape... only they're "quasi-magic" items dependent on the mythallar as a power source. They crash. Some survive and the enemy closes in, and they draw that magic wand they rely on... that relies on that mythallar....

So, they yield... they surrender... and the beings that caused them all this distress realize "here's a people that we can take under our wing.... and steal their secrets... what was that mythallar thing they were using? They were too dependent on it, but it sounds like a great crystal based power that would be a great feather to have in our cap"

In this instance, the major players of the enclave may be dead and the remaining folk may know how to use magic, but not extremely well. They may start getting taught by the people that took them in. The history books may not "quite" get it right about how this relationship started and ended as well.



My still-nebulous idea for an enclave parked over another continent was that it had found a convenient place to "dock" -- perhaps a large lake, or something like a crater or the caldera of a dormant volcano -- allowing it to more or less land. When the Fall came, since it was parked, it remained intact. The mythallar went offline, but the city remained.



Yeah, you will note in the above I'm talking about an enclave falling NOT at the time of Karsus' Folly. Some enclave floating along, la di da singing "we're coming to conquer" .... when they get attacked in the way that would affect them most. Someone attacks their mythallar and effectively makes it reboot. So, its not necessarily parked. Its not necessarily even in a great place for its inhabitants as they may have been "searching for a parking spot".

The idea here would be that the Netherese COULD have been put in their place by other cultures if such still existed and they ran across them. Remnants of the Creator Races, elves, powerful giants who studied magic, or some inherently magical and powerful race (phaerimm, sharn, and others.... I know Seethyr's thinking about one in particular), hell even powerful dragons, great spirits, genies, etc... might be able to stand up to the Netherese and at least bloody their nose (or even just other human cultures of a similar bent on the power levels of Imaskar and Jhaamdath in theory).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  15:39:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.



Or even a more localized desert area that might be recovering but caused the temporary movement of rivers and such that dries up a region, possibly creating some underdark lakes....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  16:02:43  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.



Or even a more localized desert area that might be recovering but caused the temporary movement of rivers and such that dries up a region, possibly creating some underdark lakes....



I don’t know if you noticed the map of the NW of Anchorome. Looks an awful lot like a crater to me.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  18:51:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.



Or even a more localized desert area that might be recovering but caused the temporary movement of rivers and such that dries up a region, possibly creating some underdark lakes....



I don’t know if you noticed the map of the NW of Anchorome. Looks an awful lot like a crater to me.



Ahh, true, with big lake in the middle

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  19:56:50  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

If Marvel’s Age of Ultron taught me anything about physics, it’s that falling cities can cause massive damage well beyond its borders. I’m shocked that so many falling cities didn’t kick up enough dirt and debris to cause another ice age.



Well, now, you had to ask that. That can be determined but some more data is needed:

1. How long was magic busted?
2. Was magic used on the cities to make sure the air stayed breathable no matter how high the city went?
3. Was every city roughly the same size?

One thing your question does guarantee, though, is that Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath were all cities that were closest to but not too much above 26,246 ft in altitude. If magic was used to keep the air breathable and a city was too high, the people would have all died of a lack of oxygen so Mystra would not have been able to save them. It would also be those cities that could have impacted the environment the most since they would have had the highest velocity on impact with the ground.

Or, and this is an interesting question, did she save those three cities, not because of they were the only ones she could but instead because the archwizards there had the least amount of hubris and thus were worthy of saving so that knowledge of magic was kept alive by those that had the right attitude towards it?



Ok, assuming Toril's gravity is exactly the same as Earth's and the atmospheric pressure is basically the same, the following can be estimated:

1. If the three surviving cities were around that 27,000 feet in altitude, the maximum amount of time that magic could have been on the fritz is about 40 seconds. Any longer than that and the cities would have impacted the ground.

2. Given the amount of time mentioned above, a city falling from that altitude would only be doing about 900 miles an hour (it is very likely that most cities were going MUCH slower when they impacted). That is not, based on what I found on space.com about a medium sized impactor causing a mini-ice age, fast enough for a city about 1.2 miles in diameter.

3. Guestimating the minimum altitude needed for a global effect, the city would have to be at about 70 miles. So it IS possible for one of the enclaves to mess up Toril but the gods would have very likely stepped in to stop or mitigate the effect.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

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3736 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2021 :  23:18:50  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I'm surprised that no indication of any kind of environmental cataclysm/climate changes were written into the history of the Fall of Netheril when the stories were first told or since. Obviously, giant cities falling from the sky is a major plot point, and just thinking of the visuals of something like that,yeah, there would be a ton of damage to the areas the cities landed.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  00:01:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where all have we had fallen cities documented though? We have a huge desert (which may have been made more into a desert by the crashes mind you). We have Narfell for Jiksidur, which is kind of a badlands as well. One fell into some water and was recovered (forget its name), but that might have some mitigating effects. Then there is the one in icewind dale, which if you read it, it did a decent amount of damage that was kind of mitigated by the fact that it fell into ice. What about others?

On the concept of "how high did they fly", honestly planes fly at like 6 miles up. I'd be surprised if they keep the cities that far up. Even a half mile would be plenty.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  00:16:47  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the concept of "how high did they fly", honestly planes fly at like 6 miles up. I'd be surprised if they keep the cities that far up. Even a half mile would be plenty.



That is a 13 second fall with an impact velocity of less than 300 mph. I could definitely see that as being too short a time for Mystral to "kill" herself, Mystra be born, and then have the situational awareness to save any of the enclaves falling from that height.

Edit: The thought occurred as to why the three survivors were at high altitude at the time and it occurred to me: weather. They were all in the same rough area (eastern boundary) so they could have all had the same weather. So, if it was raining (and they didn't want to stop it so it could water the fields below them) they would have increased the city's altitude to get above the clouds (just like modern airplanes do).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 28 Jan 2021 16:35:41
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  16:35:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the concept of "how high did they fly", honestly planes fly at like 6 miles up. I'd be surprised if they keep the cities that far up. Even a half mile would be plenty.



That is a 13 second fall with an impact velocity of less than 300 mph. I could definitely see that as being too short a time for Mystral to "kill" herself, Mystra be born, and then have the situational awareness to save any of the enclaves falling from that height.



What is the speed of thought to a deity who is composed of it? What is TIME to a goddess of time... just another factor that can be played with and even stopped or even reversed? In a world of magic, many things can happen in a timeframe that we might find unbelievable.

From another perspective, this could explain why there wasn't so much upheaval on a global scale (local yes). The cities weren't dropping from the height of planes, etc... so local to where they fell may have been very devastated, maybe even out to a few dozen miles if they DID fall into an area of loose particles like a desert.... and Talos possibly reaped enough power through somehow aiding this destruction that he stole Kozah's identity (or Kozah lost his eye and became Talos).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  16:39:52  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, it looks like I added an edit while you were posting that.

It could be that even she couldn't take things back to a time where magic didn't exist. Or, that lends credence to my suggestion that she didn't save the other cities because of their hubris.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  21:32:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm, just one thing that's kind of interesting... I pointed out above that enclaves could fall without it pertaining to Karsus' Folly. It seems that's exactly what happened with the one that's in icewind dale. It happened PRIOR to Karsus' Folly by a couple years. Just found it interesting that people are circling around the same ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  21:46:48  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

hmmm, just one thing that's kind of interesting... I pointed out above that enclaves could fall without it pertaining to Karsus' Folly. It seems that's exactly what happened with the one that's in icewind dale. It happened PRIOR to Karsus' Folly by a couple years. Just found it interesting that people are circling around the same ideas.



Maybe the Twenty Stones of Thruun had something to do with it? Those are in Icewind Dale, right?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 :  22:07:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe the archmages of ythryn were messing around with the Spindle, and ostorian artefact, and its accidental improper activation caused the fall of ythryn.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 29 Jan 2021 :  02:51:48  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-On the WOtC boards we had like a 50 page thread about various factoids related to Netheril and somewhere in there we worked out the math and various distances and times it would take for cities to fall in the time Mystryl did not exist and magic ceased. I know they're gone (RIP) and archived to some degree, was there ever a way to search them instituted?

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Jan 2021 02:56:02
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  00:22:03  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  01:13:49  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.

-- George Krashos



That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because they wanted to be above some storm clouds (cumulonimbus clouds top out around 10,000 ft). They wanted the rain for the crops of Low Netheril but didn't want to get rained on. Maybe, it was little Buffy's birthday party?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  03:34:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm inclined to think that it wasn't as much an altitude thing as it was that Mystra was not fully rebooted yet, and only had time (or power enough) to save three. Maybe she picked the first three she saw, or maybe those three had some significance to her -- though the fact that they were in the same general vicinity makes me doubt the latter.

Maybe it was a case where she could only expend a certain amount of power -- like a giant web or something -- and those three were close enough to be caught in it, while the rest of the enclaves were far enough apart that she could have only caught one or two.

Also, the line about the three surviving cities being "along Netheril’s southeastern frontier" still leaves us with an awfully large section of map that does not appear to contain any formerly flying cities.

On a similar note, it's odd that the Anauroch Desert doesn't seem to have the ruins of these cities scattered around everywhere. Sure, I know that deserts do swallow up signs of civilization, but it's going to take a lot of wind and sand to cover up a piece of a mountain.

...It makes me wonder if there's another reason these ruins are not to be found. You could say the mythallars imploded or something, though you've then got to explain why it didn't happen to all of them. Maybe someone came along later and put a lot of effort into making sure the ruins wouldn't be found...

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  06:50:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  15:26:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.

-- George Krashos



Exactly, if they kept the bottom at least say 150 feet from the ground that would make good enough clearance that they wouldn't be accidentally tearing through most trees, etc... (granted, there are a few old trees that might be higher than that, so maybe 250 feet just to make it hard for someone to climb a tree and then somehow invade the enclave or some other crazy BS like that).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  15:43:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.

-- George Krashos



It's how they're described in published canon.

But even if it was only say 25% of them, that still leaves those very large rocks unaccounted for... To say nothing of the rest of them.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  16:09:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.

-- George Krashos



Yeah, this too. If you look at the one in icewind dale, its specifically a flat disk with towers off the edge and a city on the top. I'd bet there were a mix of this kind of thing. The ones that were big rocks probably had more of an interior city than what's been described to us. But with magics to shape stone, etc... I'd imagine a lot of them were disks. Some may have been akin to wheeled spokes to allow water and wind to flow through easily. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a city on a spiral like a unicorn's horn with the buildings going up the spiral. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some cities were on "solid fog" type effects such that the city was in a literal cloud. Perhaps a city got a seed from "garden" in realmspace and "grew" its flying enclave and it periodically flits from lake to lake with its people (and after being in a lake for a few days, it drains the lake a bit, so that's why its always on the move).

By the way that was a little fun... take a second... put on your imagination hat.... what can you picture as a "different" look for an enclave?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
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Posted - 30 Jan 2021 :  18:26:56  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain. Rime definitely flipped that.

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