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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Nov 2021 : 18:06:10
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Yeah, he mentioned he used the 2e map as the base, based on another fanmade map (this one), that in turn is based mainly on the FRIA map. Then added the relevant bits from 4e. He only added stuff from the 3e map when he felt it fit, including some Markustay's stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
this one has a lot of additions that I don't recognize in Tymanther.
Djerad Aurix and Djerad Ternhesh are the only ones that I don't recognize. And these ones are from Supplemental Empires (the fan sourcebook from DMs Guild). He included them because he felt there is a lack of Tymantheran settlements in canon, and I agree. But to make it more canon-friendly, instead of making them cities (Djerad), I will make them towns (Arush) instead.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, the city of Arush Vayem and Dalath are relatively near one another. Dalath is the city of the Millenium Dragon (an over 3 thousand year old blue dragon from the original draconomicon from 1st or 2nd edition whose bone are fragile and who is on the dragon ascendant path). the Millenium dragon does NOT seem to like Gilgeam btw.
Well, we don't know the actual exact location of Arush Vayem, just that is located up in the Smoking Mountains. From the info we have, Dalath is on the plains on the Untheran side of the Montains, right? I don't think they Dalathians will be aware of a small village exiles and pariahs from Tymanther make up their home.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Nov 2021 18:11:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2021 : 21:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, he mentioned he used the 2e map as the base, based on another fanmade map (this one), that in turn is based mainly on the FRIA map. Then added the relevant bits from 4e. He only added stuff from the 3e map when he felt it fit, including some Markustay's stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
this one has a lot of additions that I don't recognize in Tymanther.
Djerad Aurix and Djerad Ternhesh are the only ones that I don't recognize. And these ones are from Supplemental Empires (the fan sourcebook from DMs Guild). He included them because he felt there is a lack of Tymantheran settlements in canon, and I agree. But to make it more canon-friendly, instead of making them cities (Djerad), I will make them towns (Arush) instead.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, the city of Arush Vayem and Dalath are relatively near one another. Dalath is the city of the Millenium Dragon (an over 3 thousand year old blue dragon from the original draconomicon from 1st or 2nd edition whose bone are fragile and who is on the dragon ascendant path). the Millenium dragon does NOT seem to like Gilgeam btw.
Well, we don't know the actual exact location of Arush Vayem, just that is located up in the Smoking Mountains. From the info we have, Dalath is on the plains on the Untheran side of the Montains, right? I don't think they Dalathians will be aware of a small village exiles and pariahs from Tymanther make up their home.
Regarding Dalath, my thoughts on it were that it would be a returning place, such that the people of Arush Vayem and Dalath may find themselves somewhat close neighbors. Not sure how that might affect things. I do picture the millenium dragon as possibly working against the tyranny of both Gilgeam and Karshimis at the same time while on Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 01:46:34
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Perhaps Dalath may be near the mountain's slope on the Untheran side of the Smoking Mountains, where the road p to the mointains peaks where Arush Vayem is starts? I mean, they should have a way out of the village that doesn't go to the Tymantheran side (as Arush Vayem is located in what the dragonborn consider their frontier... and this was in 4e)? Since most of the dragonborn living there are exiles that doesn't want to be seen in Tymantheran land, to avoid unwanted problems.
I don't know much of Dalath, I guess I should check my Old Empires book... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 12:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Perhaps Dalath may be near the mountain's slope on the Untheran side of the Smoking Mountains, where the road p to the mointains peaks where Arush Vayem is starts? I mean, they should have a way out of the village that doesn't go to the Tymantheran side (as Arush Vayem is located in what the dragonborn consider their frontier... and this was in 4e)? Since most of the dragonborn living there are exiles that doesn't want to be seen in Tymantheran land, to avoid unwanted problems.
I don't know much of Dalath, I guess I should check my Old Empires book...
I actually don't think there is much there on Dalath. It's all from the original draconomicon millenium dragon adventure. Which wasn't much either. The big things were that the dragon worked through the humans as intermediaries. They served as information merchants in the area and they revered the dragon (3e had him as a dragon ascendant, so on the path to deity). Of course, they might come back severely changed as a population. It could really be an opportunity to mix it up. For instance, maybe he acquired a new body from a dragon overlord in Abeir (he was already projecting his spirit). Maybe his people turned against him. Maybe some dragonborn came to the town and freed them. Maybe his bones were put to use in some form of very powerful draconic magic while on Abeir (they seem to know how to enact the innate power in objects pretty well). I may have to think on the idea, but something tells me mixing it with the people of Arush Vayem might be interesting (maybe having the two town separated by only a few miles or somesuch). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Nov 2021 13:16:51 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 14:59:27
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So, Maldraedior is an ancient dragon who has developed his dragonsight and is in the process of becoming a Greatwyrm, in 5e parlance.
Going by your theory about him getting a new body, perhaps he fused with his echo from Abeir. I mean, according to the rules in Fizban's, a dragon's echo can be of another age category, another gender, etc., and there is even a small possibility that can be of another species altogether. And fusing with their echoes is how dragons sped up the process of becoming Greatwyrms with god-like powers. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 20:31:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, Maldraedior is an ancient dragon who has developed his dragonsight and is in the process of becoming a Greatwyrm, in 5e parlance.
Going by your theory about him getting a new body, perhaps he fused with his echo from Abeir. I mean, according to the rules in Fizban's, a dragon's echo can be of another age category, another gender, etc., and there is even a small possibility that can be of another species altogether. And fusing with their echoes is how dragons sped up the process of becoming Greatwyrms with god-like powers.
Hmmm, or as a result of the spellplague when "Toril-Dalath" falls on "Abeir-Dalath" it forced the two wyrms together (i.e. he joined with his echo). Possibly even his Abeir echo was already a dragon overlord.
To note, Maldraedior was the last dragon cleric of Kalzareinad draconic deity of draconic magic, but his "god" disappeared after the ToT.
Maybe even something odd like we find that Kalzareinad wasn't a "god", so much as he was a dracolich in Abeir who was somehow getting in touch with his echos. His dracolichdom was maybe why Maldraedior was able to manifest in spirit form, why his body was turning decrepit (and not just age), etc.... To note, Maldraedior himself is described as being unlike most other dragons, and that he was mainly neutral with some slight selfishness and arrogance that could be seen as "evil" to a light degree. Maybe Maldraedior actually figured out how to draw Kalzareinad into this world to end his influence, resulting in Kalzareinad's body getting entrapped in the astral and separated from his phylactery. Maybe even this is what starts drawing the worlds together in those specific regions (along with Tiamat's shenanigans with Tchazzar).
From Cult of the Dragon
Kalzareinad (Dead)
(Keeper of Dark Wonders)
Kalzareinad was a neutral evil demipower of the Gray Waste. His portfolio was dragon magic, specifically the uncaring, evil, or selfish application of dragon magic. His symbol was a five-pointed star encircled by a dragon grabbing its own tail in its mouth. His worship and portfolio were entirely subsumed by Kereska during the Time of Troubles (1358 DR), and he passed quietly into deific death shortly thereafter in the Astral Plane.
and
The one deity Null was on somewhat friendly terms with
was Kalzareinad, a demipower of draconic magic who was
said to have aided Sammaster#146;s creation of the first dracolich,
and the loss of this ally has led scholars to speculate
that he may soon seek others to replace him.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 03:01:58
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According to Fizban, all dragon gods aren't really gods, in the ontological sense (the same thing that happens with primordials, actually). Gods originated in the Outer Planes, dragon "gods" originated in the Material Plane (and primordials in the Elemental Planes, for that matter). Even if they have the same kinds of powers (and abilities to give their worshipers clerical spells, etc.), their nature is different.
And as for the dragon "gods", there are two kinds: primordial dragons, like Bahamut and Tiamat (and possibly Io/Asgorath and Sardior), and full-powered greatwyrms, who achieve a power close to that of a primordial dragon (all the other members of the draconic pantheon, as well as other super powerful dragons like Ashardalon). The greatwyrms that are regarded as "gods" by humans are those that have fused with a lot (or even all) of their echoes in other worlds, and that's why they have followers in all these worlds. The process can be done willingly (a fusion of two echoes) or a la Highlander (a dragon kills his echo and absorbs its essence to become more powerful; Ashardalon is known for this, as well as Chronepsis).
It makes sense, then, that some dragon gods had unique names in the Realms in the past, like Null (Chronepsis and Falazure) and Hlal (Aasterinian). Perhaps Null and Hlal were the echoes of these dragons that originated in the Realms, and now are completely fused with their counterparts from other worlds. It also makes sense that Hlal was male and Aasterinian a female, since echoes can be different from world to world.
Anyway, following Fizban's lore, yeah, Kalzareinad wasn't a "god", just a not-so powerful greatwyrm (as he was a "demigod"). Perhaps he had just fused with his abeiran counterpart, and that's why he wasn't as powerful (meaning there are other Kalzareinads in the multiverse, perhaps way too young to develop their dragonsight yet). Perhaps Maldraedior an apprentice who was learning from old Kaz the secrets to develop his dragonsight. Then caused his master's downfall when had learned enough. Then went to fuse with his counterpart in Abeir to start his apotheosis into a greatwyrm. Perhaps the Maldraedior of Abeir was a younger wyrm, with a powerful body (as the dragons of Abeir seem to be stronger than those of Toril, having evolved without the Dracorage hampering them).
And yes, perhaps this Maldraedior was an Overlord, who had a lot of resources that are now at the disposal of the new, improved Milenio Dragon.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Stones Finder
Acolyte
Canada
30 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 04:37:02
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| I remember reading somewhere - I think it might have been speculation by George - that Kalzareinad merged with Kereska (sp?) the Wonderbringer during the TOT, and Maladraedor, acting as his avatar, was rejuvenated as a result. I have no idea if this was ever canon, and since canon essentially doesn't exist anymore, I doubt the Fizban book would have made reference to it even if it was. |
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 07:45:23
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Echoes. Across the multiverse. I'm intrigued, did WotC actually explain how that phenomenon was created/how it works/what powers it or did they hand wave it for the sake of a "good idea"?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 10:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Echoes. Across the multiverse. I'm intrigued, did WotC actually explain how that phenomenon was created/how it works/what powers it or did they hand wave it for the sake of a "good idea"?
-- George Krashos
Aside from all the other worlds being shards of the First World, it's a lot of handwavium and "write it down, this is kewl!"
As painful as I find the whole concept, what really makes it go off the rails is the fact that these multiversal echoes may not even fall into the same family of dragons. Somehow, a male red dragon on one world could conceivably have a female silver dragon echo on another world.
Personally, I'm chucking the entire thing out the window. I think it's a very poor fit for fantasy, in general, and it's a major retcon to prior lore.
I think one of the writers recently saw "The One" with Jet Li and decided he had to put the plot into a book -- and this one does indeed speak of dragons somehow traveling to other worlds and killing their echoes to become more powerful.
It wouldn't have been so bad if it had been "hey, here's a possibility for something you can do" and then otherwise left it alone... But instead, they went for "this is definitively how things are" and push the idea hard throughout the book. I'm reminded of the old Wizards Handbook from the PHBR series, where they said "you could be a generalist mage, but there's no reason to do that when you could be a specialist" and then tailored the rest of the book to specialist mages.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Nov 2021 11:05:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 18:25:14
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Yeah, THAT part... the "you can be an entirely different race and sex of dragon.... that part I feel has just too much wokism to it for my personal taste. That being said, as I've said before on many topics, a lot of concepts come out that are wonky, and they get fixed later. For instance, with dragons and the Abeir/Toril thing... I could see the idea of echoes there working. If the understanding of Chronomancy is flawed as well and there actually are multiple timestreams per crystal sphere, I could see echos across time streams. In the birthright campaign world, an echo between the material and shadow plane would make sense, as there they much more closely model the idea that the two are mirrors. Now an echo between Toril and Krynn, or an echo ? Not so much.
As a slight aside, one of the things that I and a few others have posited in the past was what exactly was meant by the statements of "dawn titans using dragons as mounts"..... as in were the primordials literally riding dragons... or were the primordials riding in the dragon's minds. Could it be that the "first sundering" basically created a copy of Toril INTO this first world..... and basically this first world is an "out of phase" place that's like coterminous to all crystal spheres (i.e. essentially LIKE the plane of shadow is in theory if you think about it...... or perhaps more useful, how the spirit world is supposed to be as well). Essentially if they finally wanted to get down to the nitty gritty "what is Abeir exactly".... and let's face it they've had 13 years, so its about time to really start trying to answer it.... But then, what do I know, nothing's canon, so who says Abeir even exists. For all we know, its just a divine conspiracy and created memories on a vast scale that were implanted into the beings that got transplanted. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 19:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, THAT part... the "you can be an entirely different race and sex of dragon.... that part I feel has just too much wokism to it for my personal taste.
It has nothing to do with so-called "wokism." They said that a dragon's echo could be something else entirely. Where you get "wokism" out of that is beyond me.
That said, I can see the idea that maybe an echo is the same type of dragon but the opposite gender -- it's a well-explored idea with the multiversal duplicates trope.
It's having an echo that's another type of dragon entirely that's taking this ill-fitting concept to an illogical end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 19:25:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Multiple spheres all creating the same or similar things has been going on since they introduced spelljammer.
Similar things, possibly due to panspermia or convergent evolution. Not duplicates or echoes.
Spelljammer had nothing to do with this multiversal BS the Fizban book inflicts on us.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Look at the draconomicon 2e and its origin for dragons, and yet other worlds like dragon lance and dark sun have their own origin for the same dragons. Look at Tiamat and Bahamut and paladine and takhisis. Look at Bane and Bane and all the Tyrs. Look at the entire Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons and people that supposedly came from earth but cant have because they have their own analogues of events mirrored in real world mythology. The elves coming from faeree but having different origins in grey hawk and dark sun etc. Over the years I've seen people try to explain which world was the true source of a particular race, but in reality what if they all were the true source of each race and they all have their own little variations.
Why can't the Mulhorandi pantheon be present on both Earth and Toril? It's not at all uncommon for deities to be pan-spheric. Several other Torilian powers are pan-spheric.
It's also odd that you embrace the echoes concept and simultaneously rule it out.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Although, the changing type and gender at a whim doesnt do it for me. Would much prefer parthenogenosis as an option for dragons as it happens in some reptiles.
No idea where this one comes from. No one mentioned dragons changing type and gender, at a whim or otherwise. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 00:08:13
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I don't see this echo stuff as a bad idea, actually. It helps to those DMs that like to homebrew. For example, I like Klauth, but I don't play in the Realms. Now, I can use an echo of Klauth in my campaign. Or I want to import Urum-Shar into my Realms game. Well, I can explain she is an echoof the one from 4e's core world.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 01:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I don't see this echo stuff as a bad idea, actually. It helps to those DMs that like to homebrew. For example, I like Klauth, but I don't play in the Realms. Now, I can use an echo of Klauth in my campaign. Or I want to import Urum-Shar into my Realms game. Well, I can explain she is an echoof the one from 4e's core world.
But you didn't need this echo idea to just slap a new name on Klauth and use him exactly as he is, or to import Urum-Shar. It's always been the case that it's each individual DM's Realms to do with as they please, and people have been mining published settings for stuff to use in their homebrew settings the whole time published settings have been around.
They didn't need to force this comic book/sci-fi concept into the Realms for people to be able to make the setting their own.
And I don't think that was the intention, anyway: I fully expect them to use this idea to mine more multiversal ideas from other media and import them into D&D. They've already blatantly lifted the plot of a Jet Li movie...
I wouldn't be surprised if the next thing is having mirror universe Elminster with a goatee show up and start attacking people in the Realms, or evil Halruaa from Toril-457 invades and then good Thay from Toril-319 arrives to fight them, or good guy Cyric who never became a deity puts in an appearance...
Even if they don't go that route (which would really surprise me), it's another mechanism for them to ignore canon -- this even allows them to ignore their own canon. "Yes, we wrote that this character died... But guess what, it was actually his echo from another world that died! Also, it was still another echo that did these other things that the first one couldn't have done..."
That's why I have such an issue with it. It's a bad fit for the Realms, and it's just going to lead to more bad ideas and further degradation of the Realms as a single coherent setting. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 02:36:20
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| The degradation of the Realms as a coherent setting started way before of that, with the SCAG, actually. Even without the echo stuff, the coherence of the setting is already non-existant. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 02:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The degradation of the Realms as a coherent setting started way before of that, with the SCAG, actually. Even without the echo stuff, the coherence of the setting is already non-existant.
Oh, it goes back to the 3E FRCS, when they first started disregarding canon. But it's been accelerating, and this echo stuff is just going to make it worse. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 03:17:07
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Not necessarily. I know 3e and 4e did cuestionable stuff to the Realms, but there was a coherent continuity, even if the plot was bad. If you read the sourcebooks you knew why this happened that way and there was an implied story told in the sources, an actual plot you can follow if you wanted to.
In the SCAG stuff happened because reasons, there was no logic behind what stuff happened besides meta explanations (they wanted to recover those players that were playing Pathfinder). Like, they repaired Neverwinter, but how? It just happened because. Or Gilgeam returning (undoing a 2e plot, nonetheless) because... Yes.
And all the other sourcebooks that followed the SCAG just added to this. Specially Mordenkainen's. That one is a bigger offender than Fizban's. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2021 03:19:17 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 03:50:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I don't see this echo stuff as a bad idea, actually. It helps to those DMs that like to homebrew. For example, I like Klauth, but I don't play in the Realms. Now, I can use an echo of Klauth in my campaign. Or I want to import Urum-Shar into my Realms game. Well, I can explain she is an echoof the one from 4e's core world.
Respectfully, that doesn't make much sense. Of course you can use Klauth in your campaign. In your campaign he is called Bob. Why do you need a jury-rigged pan-sphere/plane/world concept to make you feel okay about using elements of the Realms in your campaign?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 04:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Not necessarily. I know 3e and 4e did cuestionable stuff to the Realms, but there was a coherent continuity, even if the plot was bad. If you read the sourcebooks you knew why this happened that way and there was an implied story told in the sources, an actual plot you can follow if you wanted to.
In the SCAG stuff happened because reasons, there was no logic behind what stuff happened besides meta explanations (they wanted to recover those players that were playing Pathfinder). Like, they repaired Neverwinter, but how? It just happened because. Or Gilgeam returning (undoing a 2e plot, nonetheless) because... Yes.
And all the other sourcebooks that followed the SCAG just added to this. Specially Mordenkainen's. That one is a bigger offender than Fizban's.
No, 3E was when canon started to be disregarded, and 4E was worse. 3E had things like dwarves suddenly becoming magical, planar structures changing, NPCs changing alignment because designers couldn't be bothered to create new ones, and a host of other changes that if we got any explanation at all (which was rare) it was "it was always like this but no one knew!"
4E started with a huge retcon, and canon continued to be disregarded in strange and inexplicable ways -- like the fact that Myth Nantar was more than 300 feet under water, but take away 50 feet of depth, and now part of it is above the surface. And then there was things like a huge explosion that nuked Halruaa, somehow came back down on the other side of a wall of mountains, destroyed a peninsula and made Chult an island -- but this explosion somehow didn't destroy buildings in Halruaa. They couldn't even maintain continuity within that edition.
The SCAG was actually a decent book. It was built on a broken foundation, but at least it stands well on its own.
And sure, other 5E books have had issues -- I'll never accept beholders just dreaming other beholders into existence! -- but this multiversal thing is far larger in scale than anything they've done before. By opening up the possibility of parallel universes with echoes present in each, they're throwing the doors wide open to do every cheesy thing we've ever seen in a comic book or sci-fi novel, show, or movie.
Given that they've already copied the plot of a mediocre movie built around that echoes concept, and the fact that this team loves dropping in anachronistic pop culture elements like a submarine named for a bit of real-world fiction, we're going to see a lot more of this kind of thing. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Dec 2021 04:21:55 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 05:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Respectfully, that doesn't make much sense. Of course you can use Klauth in your campaign. In your campaign he is called Bob. Why do you need a jury-rigged pan-sphere/plane/world concept to make you feel okay about using elements of the Realms in your campaign?
-- George Krashos
Not all people get the homebrewer stuff. There are people who actually like to play by the book. That's why Ed Greenwood gets a lot of questions in his Twitter, instead of these people finding these answers themselves. So, for these people that the book says "use this to play by the book while modifying stuff" is really helpful.
Also, I want Klauth, not Bob.  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 05:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
4E started with a huge retcon, and canon continued to be disregarded in strange and inexplicable ways -- like the fact that Myth Nantar was more than 300 feet under water, but take away 50 feet of depth, and now part of it is above the surface. And then there was things like a huge explosion that nuked Halruaa, somehow came back down on the other side of a wall of mountains, destroyed a peninsula and made Chult an island -- but this explosion somehow didn't destroy buildings in Halruaa. They couldn't even maintain continuity within that edition.
The SCAG was actually a decent book. It was built on a broken foundation, but at least it stands well on its own.
As someone who is still playing in the 4e Realms and reads these materials a lot, I can say that the 4e Realms are more coherent than people believe. And yes, there are retcons, but retconing does not necessarily imply incoherence. Some retcons can make more sense than the original stuff.
The thing with the 4e Realms is that they are coherent with the 3e Realms, and this means that they are not necessarily coherent with the 1e/2e Realms.
There is no coherency between the 4e and the 5e Realms. And I don't believe the SCAG is a good book. To say that it was "built in a broken foundation" it means that the book should have taken into account that foundation, but the authors literally disregarded 4e lore when they wrote the SCAG. I can point out to a lot of lore inconsistencies in the SCAG that makes me believe the authors didn't even read the FRCG once.
And there is a reason it is not well regarded by 5e fans and even WotC hates it...
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2021 05:37:20 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 07:00:56
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I've always felt it is nonsensical that, in a multiverse that is supposed to be connected and with a single origin, there do exist worlds with unique versions of characters that exist through the whole multiverse.
And I don't remember Ra being killed in RW Mythology. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2021 07:01:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 13:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I've always felt it is nonsensical that, in a multiverse that is supposed to be connected and with a single origin, there do exist worlds with unique versions of characters that exist through the whole multiverse.
And I don't remember Ra being killed in RW Mythology.
He was replaced or merged with Horus in many of the stories. At the same time, in OTHER places he was merged with Amun and became Amun-Ra.
This is why you've heard me talk about the idea that Ra may have left the Mulhorandi (split himself) and taken over At'ar to merge as Amun-ra-at'ar (Amaunator). The whole story of Horus-Re taking over after Ra's death is one that "supposedly" happened here, along with Set and Osiris fighting, Osiris dying because he's "tricked" into going into a coffin, Isis fleeing into some swamps and bringing Osiris back from the dead (thus Osiris' green skin). That being said, the myth on Earth has Horus being Isis' child, born in the swamps after Osiris death (and possibly involving some necrophilia depending on the myth). Horus avenges the death of Osiris and becomes Horus-Re. There were also other Horus'. As with many real world mythologies, the stories are more confusing than the FR ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 16:44:30
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| Yeah, but Amun-Ra and Ra-Horakty were revisions made by the priests when certain gods became popular ("Horus and Ra have been the same being all this time, since always. We should revered them as fitting"). There is no a story within the myths that tells us how those mergers happened. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 21:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
but this multiversal thing is far larger in scale than anything they've done before. By opening up the possibility of parallel universes with echoes present in each, they're throwing the doors wide open to do every cheesy thing we've ever seen in a comic book or sci-fi novel, show, or movie.
This isn't opening it up any wider than the infinite number of alternate Prime Material Planes in the 1987 Manual of the Planes (pages 117-119). Which, among other things, explicitly included alternate Primes with a Temporal Factor of 0, which meant "Continents, life, and society similar to home plane. Individuals who resemble companions exist, though their actions, attitudes, and alignments may vary from those of the traveler's Prime plane." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 03:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
but this multiversal thing is far larger in scale than anything they've done before. By opening up the possibility of parallel universes with echoes present in each, they're throwing the doors wide open to do every cheesy thing we've ever seen in a comic book or sci-fi novel, show, or movie.
This isn't opening it up any wider than the infinite number of alternate Prime Material Planes in the 1987 Manual of the Planes (pages 117-119). Which, among other things, explicitly included alternate Primes with a Temporal Factor of 0, which meant "Continents, life, and society similar to home plane. Individuals who resemble companions exist, though their actions, attitudes, and alignments may vary from those of the traveler's Prime plane."
Yeah, but that book didn't explicitly say there are full-on duplicates on each world or that they could kill each other to get stronger. Also, that was a possibility that was never touched on again, while this is saying it's definitive and pushing the concept hard.
Hell of a difference between "there could be something similar, somewhere" and "there are definitely multiples out there, they can be communicated with or worked with, and killing them makes an echo stronger." |
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Tymanther and Unther post-SS and other stuff
