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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2020 : 05:36:51
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I was thinking about how rarely we see any material that touches on the Shaaran people, and it made me want to ask all of you here, who are more intimately familiar with obscure lore; what groups do you think go missed too often, and would enrich campaigns if they showed up more?
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2020 : 17:36:16
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Interestingly, I've been looking more and more into the Shaar lately with my interests in Peleverai and the idea that the Underchasm was simply a portion of land going to Abeir and then coming back. I agree that the area has seen little focus. I suspect that many of the gods of later Unther (such as Ramman and Assuran) came from the Shaar (though I suspect Assuran to be an ascended dragon with either lightning or some form of sonic breath weapon). I suspect Assuran to have ties to the city of Assur down in Durpar. I suspect Ishtar also to have come from the Shaar, and I suspect that her "leaving" her portfolios to Isis wasn't as polite as it was made to be. They also have a "palm trees as fingers" barbarian rain god that they refer to as Khass. To note all of these deities have ties to rain, rivers, and other weather phenomenon (similar to Enlil/Anu of Unther).
One area that's had little to no development except by sages online has been the Utter East countries. By that I mean the countries that are southeast of Durpar. There was some development in the Blood & Magic video game, a tidbit in GHotR, some in the original shining south (for Ulgarth only), and a couple novels (think something like faces of deception and something else maybe with Alias, and some in a 7 part short novel series that I haven't read). Honestly, we don't know what from those lands stayed and what left either (or is still gone, or may have returned, or may have something else in its place). I suspect based on some of the history written that Ulgarth was populated by Illuskan people that came through the portal at Council Hills (some possibly went into the Shaar and down into Dambrath, others went east).
Some development went on for the Utter East in this thread
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20836&whichpage=3
The only known map that's considered somewhat canon that I know of came from the novel faces of deception
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg
It shows the canon from shining south Ulgarth… it then shows "the free cities of Parsanic", "Doegan", "konigheim", and Edenvale.
Basically if one wanted to run a shining south campaign with also links to Zakhara, this then becomes a whole swathe of land that's seen little detail. Of course, going west from there, the whole Chultan peninsula countries of Samarach, Thindol, and Tashalar saw little development outside of Serpent Kingdoms as well. Nimbral and Gond also saw little development outside of web articles. Then there's whole swathes of the world and the sky above it and underdark below it and oceans near it that are ripe for development, but they're so far removed from Faerun that interaction would need to be developed (which is why I came up with my whole United Tharchs of Toril idea)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 00:12:55
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Zhents. Cult of the Dragon. Red Wizards. All the old classics. Their status has been left uncertain in recent editions yet remain topics people ask about.
It's nice to roll out fresh villains and epic adversaries now and then ... but it's not nice to just sweep the old ones under the rug and pretend they don't exist without some story or details more exciting than an obligatory paragraph or two. |
[/Ayrik] |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 00:17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Zhents. Cult of the Dragon. Red Wizards. All the old classics. Their status has been left uncertain in recent editions yet remain topics people ask about.
It's nice to roll out fresh villains and epic adversaries now and then ... but it's not nice to just sweep the old ones under the rug and pretend they don't exist without some story or details more exciting than an obligatory paragraph or two.
Zhents got a decent amount of love in 4e (a good-sized section in the FRCG and a lot of content in LFR) and are a main player faction in 5e, with Manshoon as one of the potential main baddies for Dragon Heist. Red Wizards were pretty big in 4e, including as one of the main Neverwinter antagonist groups, and were the main baddies for the D&D Next adventures, a good chunk of Adventurer’s League, and play a good part in Tomb of Annihilation. Neither have exactly gone forgotten.
What makes the Cult of the Dragon good baddies? They’ve always felt a little flat to me. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 04:38:30
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| Bring back the Twisted Rune. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 05:57:35
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| I found the Cult of the Dragon appealing because one could never determine if the Cult members were in charge, or the dragons were in charge, or some other personal ambition, plot, or organization was pulling strings. So from a DM's perspective there's always endless possibilities for manipulations and subplots and counterplots, from a player's perspective it's impossible to figure out the Cult's objectives or who or what to target to stop them. As as powerful as the wizards and armies of other groups may be, the wizards and armies plus dragon(s)/dracolich(es) make confronting the Cult all that much more difficult. In my experience the Cult forced players to reach out to the bigger world in search of magics and allies which could support their conflict, while they never really bothered (apparently weren't impressed or threatened enough) to inform NPCs when planning to attack Reds or Zhents. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 09:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Zhents. Cult of the Dragon. Red Wizards. All the old classics. Their status has been left uncertain in recent editions yet remain topics people ask about.
It's nice to roll out fresh villains and epic adversaries now and then ... but it's not nice to just sweep the old ones under the rug and pretend they don't exist without some story or details more exciting than an obligatory paragraph or two.
Zhents got a decent amount of love in 4e (a good-sized section in the FRCG and a lot of content in LFR) and are a main player faction in 5e, with Manshoon as one of the potential main baddies for Dragon Heist. Red Wizards were pretty big in 4e, including as one of the main Neverwinter antagonist groups, and were the main baddies for the D&D Next adventures, a good chunk of Adventurer’s League, and play a good part in Tomb of Annihilation. Neither have exactly gone forgotten.
What makes the Cult of the Dragon good baddies? They’ve always felt a little flat to me.
Just a note here... TAM's Thay is represented. The red wizards that left Thay, not so much, and the group(s) that left Thay to inhabit enclaves that cut ties to Thay would not necessarily be small. To note, the Guild of Foreign trade at the start of 4e was still headed by Samas Kul and bringing in money.... which essentially means that enclaves more than 80+ years after the spellplague were STILL working together and separate from Thay. We're not led to know how many stayed loyal to Tam's Thay and how many rejected Tam's Thay, but presumably a lot of countries that were given the option of "keeping a contract" with either a "betraying lich who turned on his own people" or "living rebels who need a place to live and might be amenable to helping the local government in appreciation for not seizing their holdings" will choose to work with the living instead of the undead. This can be further taken to note that the person that they likely signed the contract with is amongst those rebels. Of course, many places will opt for option C and declare the "contract" null and void and simply reacquire the land occupied by the enclave. Just as with our world, just because someone says they're now the leader of a country, that doesn't mean the rest of the world recognizes their sovereignty or continues them to be a continuation of the previous administration. If one group performs a coup, that may be a reason for renegotiating or ending all contracts with a country. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 May 2020 09:17:03 |
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 11:55:44
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| I would love to see more on Veldorn, the land of monsters. As far as I know only one city has been detailed, the rest only given vague descriptions of ruled by a pair of Beholders, or Red Dragon, or what have you. I need more details!! What gods or other powers, if any, are worshiped there? What are some of the laws and customs, not enough information given in my opinion. |
I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 12:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One area that's had little to no development except by sages online has been the Utter East countries. By that I mean the countries that are southeast of Durpar. There was some development in the Blood & Magic video game, a tidbit in GHotR, some in the original shining south (for Ulgarth only), and a couple novels (think something like faces of deception and something else maybe with Alias, and some in a 7 part short novel series that I haven't read). Honestly, we don't know what from those lands stayed and what left either (or is still gone, or may have returned, or may have something else in its place). I suspect based on some of the history written that Ulgarth was populated by Illuskan people that came through the portal at Council Hills (some possibly went into the Shaar and down into Dambrath, others went east).
Some development went on for the Utter East in this thread
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20836&whichpage=3
[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas
The only known map that's considered somewhat canon that I know of came from the novel faces of deception
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg
It shows the canon from shining south Ulgarth… it then shows "the free cities of Parsanic", "Doegan", "konigheim", and Edenvale.
It's not from Faces of Deception, or at least it's not in my first-printing copy. In fact, if someone could confirm exactly which book it does come from, I and the Forgotten Realms Wiki would be very grateful.
The other novels to visit the place are a short story in Realms of Mystery and the Double Diamond Triangle Saga, neither of which I've been able to get hold of.
I've been compiling what is known on Ulgarth and the Utter East at the wiki. I'm still partway through Blood & Magic.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ulgarth
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Utter_East |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 16:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Zhents. Cult of the Dragon. Red Wizards. All the old classics. Their status has been left uncertain in recent editions yet remain topics people ask about.
It's nice to roll out fresh villains and epic adversaries now and then ... but it's not nice to just sweep the old ones under the rug and pretend they don't exist without some story or details more exciting than an obligatory paragraph or two.
Zhents got a decent amount of love in 4e (a good-sized section in the FRCG and a lot of content in LFR) and are a main player faction in 5e, with Manshoon as one of the potential main baddies for Dragon Heist. Red Wizards were pretty big in 4e, including as one of the main Neverwinter antagonist groups, and were the main baddies for the D&D Next adventures, a good chunk of Adventurer’s League, and play a good part in Tomb of Annihilation. Neither have exactly gone forgotten.
What makes the Cult of the Dragon good baddies? They’ve always felt a little flat to me.
Just a note here... TAM's Thay is represented. The red wizards that left Thay, not so much, and the group(s) that left Thay to inhabit enclaves that cut ties to Thay would not necessarily be small. To note, the Guild of Foreign trade at the start of 4e was still headed by Samas Kul and bringing in money.... which essentially means that enclaves more than 80+ years after the spellplague were STILL working together and separate from Thay. We're not led to know how many stayed loyal to Tam's Thay and how many rejected Tam's Thay, but presumably a lot of countries that were given the option of "keeping a contract" with either a "betraying lich who turned on his own people" or "living rebels who need a place to live and might be amenable to helping the local government in appreciation for not seizing their holdings" will choose to work with the living instead of the undead. This can be further taken to note that the person that they likely signed the contract with is amongst those rebels. Of course, many places will opt for option C and declare the "contract" null and void and simply reacquire the land occupied by the enclave. Just as with our world, just because someone says they're now the leader of a country, that doesn't mean the rest of the world recognizes their sovereignty or continues them to be a continuation of the previous administration. If one group performs a coup, that may be a reason for renegotiating or ending all contracts with a country.
I still think that Szass's victory should have been political. Keep the Red Wizards of Thay, only Szass Tam finally slapped down the squabbling factions and made the Zulkirs apolitical, with him then retiring or hanging around as the Zulkir Emeritus.
Or, in the wake of the Spellplague, Thay is better and stronger than ever. Where Mystra's children scramble blindly and gods have fallen from their thrones, the Red Wizards of Thay have risen, battered but now united. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2020 : 17:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One area that's had little to no development except by sages online has been the Utter East countries. By that I mean the countries that are southeast of Durpar. There was some development in the Blood & Magic video game, a tidbit in GHotR, some in the original shining south (for Ulgarth only), and a couple novels (think something like faces of deception and something else maybe with Alias, and some in a 7 part short novel series that I haven't read). Honestly, we don't know what from those lands stayed and what left either (or is still gone, or may have returned, or may have something else in its place). I suspect based on some of the history written that Ulgarth was populated by Illuskan people that came through the portal at Council Hills (some possibly went into the Shaar and down into Dambrath, others went east).
Some development went on for the Utter East in this thread
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20836&whichpage=3
[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas
The only known map that's considered somewhat canon that I know of came from the novel faces of deception
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg
It shows the canon from shining south Ulgarth… it then shows "the free cities of Parsanic", "Doegan", "konigheim", and Edenvale.
It's not from Faces of Deception, or at least it's not in my first-printing copy. In fact, if someone could confirm exactly which book it does come from, I and the Forgotten Realms Wiki would be very grateful.
The other novels to visit the place are a short story in Realms of Mystery and the Double Diamond Triangle Saga, neither of which I've been able to get hold of.
I've been compiling what is known on Ulgarth and the Utter East at the wiki. I'm still partway through Blood & Magic.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ulgarth
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Utter_East
Thanks, I could have sworn that's where it came from. I know I saw it somewhere at the front of a book. Maybe it was the double diamond stuff. Guess I need to ind those. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2020 : 22:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heh, any group that isn't drow or Shades. 
I want more drow, but I want the focus to move away from Menzo and the Lolthites. Give us some Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2020 : 04:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heh, any group that isn't drow or Shades.
I want more drow, but I want the focus to move away from Menzo and the Lolthites. Give us some Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites.
Fair enough.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2020 : 06:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heh, any group that isn't drow or Shades.
To go in against the other half of this, I'd like to see more of the Abuya-Deimshowa, the Eshowe shadow magic cabal made up primarily of shades described on page 82 of Powers & Pantheons. Given the apparent extinction of the tribe at their last Torilian holdout, the Valley of Lost Honor (per Tomb of Annihilation, page 83), as well as their and their patron deity Eshowdow's ties to the Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell, it would seem there's potential for the Eshowe to have fully transitioned into an extraplanar society in similar fashion to the Shadovar, with the Abuyakas taking a position similar to the Princes of Shade. The friction between these shadow mages and the Kenswa-Tokashow (an order of crusaders, warriors, and rogues that acted as the Eshowe's military, also described on page 82 of Powers & Pantheons) even creates a motivation for widespread Eshowe dissent, which makes for an effective source of non-evil PC backgrounds and allies belonging to the tribe (hopefully subverting the troublingly one-dimensional portrayal they've gotten so far). |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 00:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heh, any group that isn't drow or Shades.
I want more drow, but I want the focus to move away from Menzo and the Lolthites. Give us some Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites.
I love me some Kiaransalee |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 01:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The star elves of Sildëyuir deserve a closer look at imo.
I'd like to see just how advanced they've become in their isolation by the 1490s.
This would indeed be neat. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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What peoples and cultures should we see more of?
