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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 16:31:12
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Master Zeromaru X,
As promised, I have created this here. I will copy and paste a few responses from the "5e Rollback" scroll here for context.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2020 : 16:35:18
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To Whom May Be Interested,
The following is from the scroll: "Why Wasn't 5e Just a Rollback?"
The discussion moved to production, setting release volume and other related elements. I am pasting a couple more responses for context as well.
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[FROM: cpthero2 on 23 Mar 20 @ 16:13:40]
Learned Scribe keftiu,
As always, I appreciate your thoughtful response with a refutation regarding my motive at the end.
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cpthero2, I feel like you're ascribing too much to market forces what I think was a deliberate design decision that had a clear vision, albeit one that became massively unpopular. There's elements of what you say, but I think it's worth taking their own words for it.
I believe I understand what you mean here. Though market forces is not accurate (those are external factors driving internal decisions), I believe you are meaning that this was a pre-planned decision, internally, and that WotC wasn't driving this from an overly processed, formal marketing design? If so, that may be so. Sometimes companies don't observe the formal marketing process from beginning to end in all that it entails. As I said though, I believe I get what you mean here, and it is possible. I myself don't have the data, etc. in front of me, so I was only going off of what I feel may have happened from my professional and educational background.
The truncation below is not cherry picking, but rather, only picking what I am responding too as I have had requests in recent times to not include quotes unless absolutely necessary as they can make these posts very long.
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From the product page for the FRCG, itself quoting the designers in a magazine article:
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What A Difference an Edition Makes: The Philosophy. A major timeline advancement, a Realms-shaking Spellplague, and the mystery of Abeir combined to suggest that there were big changes coming in the 4e Forgotten Realms. And, there were. The Forgotten Realms designers were reimagining the setting in much the same way that everything about D&D 4e was being reimagined. That started with a new nine-point philosophy for the Realms, which Senior Managing Editor Phil Athans and designer Bruce Cordell outlined in Dragon #366 (August 2008).
The issue at hand isn't the timeline advancement, it is that they blew up any relevant connection to the past by leaving a gaping 100 year hole between the two. It was play in the past, or play up here with us. That separation was felt, and caused feelings of being left behind with the old stuff, or leaving it behind to catch up with the rest and be in the club. People don't like that when it comes to culture and lifestyle in a fanbase. WotC knew what they were doing.
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1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
This matched Ed Greenwood's original conception of the Forgotten Realms. It's what he'd imagined in his early campaigns — which had begun in Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Savage Frontier, and the Sword Coast, and only then explored outward. However, over the intervening decades TSR and Wizards had detailed so much of the Realms that little of it was Forgotten any more. Now, Wizards wanted to restore that sense of mystery.
I understand this. However, going off of the 2nd/3rd edition atlas, there were (10) ten other land masses they could have gone off and kept it all going. Even if they used a spellplague, they could have built in the intervening years to connect it all together. Not have people have to make a binary choice of staying in the past or moving forward. I also don't accept a third of option of building your own stuff in the middle, as one of the things that makes the Realms the Realms is the history.
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3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
This might have been one of the biggest flaws of the published Realms. At least as far back as the Avatar books (1989), NPCs had risen up to take the prominent roles in Realms-shaking Events. Now, the Realms designers wanted to turn that around, to gave players a chance to shine.
This makes no sense to me. The NPC's, etc. in the Realms were there to provide reality, immersion, substance, and history to the world. All of the (103) accessories produced from 1993 to 2006 were all about allowing PC's a chance to shine. That is what those RPG accessories were all about. This was just non-sense.
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4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend. 5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.
These were more philosophies that were drawn directly from Greenwood's original ideas about the Realms. He'd attracted TSR's attention in the first place through Dragon magazine articles that namedropped people and places to hint at the rich histories and legends of the Realms. Meanwhile, his own campaigns had always seen the Realms as a changing, evolving place — something that TSR and Wizards continued with its Realms-shaking Events from the Time of Troubles onward.
See point (1) above that I responded too.
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6. It’s core D&D “plus.”
This was a new marketing precept for D&D; it presumed that the Realms was a superset of D&D, not a variant. This meant that the Realms had to include the cosmology, races, and classes that were being developed for the core 4e game.
I get that point. I also agree with what I think their point here was: that they screwed up by taking one stance on something at one point and then took another, later. Ultimately, the Realms were the most popular, and this is why they made it thee setting for D&D over Greyhawk, etc.
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7. It’s contemporary fantasy.
The Forgotten Realms was first published by TSR in 1987, but the setting dated back to 1968 or 1969 when Greenwood started writing short stories in the Realms, while D&D play had begun in 1978. This meant that the setting needed some polishing to make it look more like modern fantasy, and less like the fantasy of the '60s, '70s, or '80s.
I can see this. Truly, I can. I mean, fantasy has really changed a lot during the intervening decades. I think they could have made changes that didn't involve destroying what one generation had, to make room for the next by deleting the timeline and starting over with drastic changes 100 years later. I mean, talk about the old Star Trek Original Series to ST:TNG issue with the differences in appearances with the Klingons. lol
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8. It’s 50% all new. 9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
Wizards planned big changes as part of the new 4e Forgotten Realms, but they were intended to be part of the continuing evolution of the Realms, not a reboot.
It's 50% all new sounds like a used car salesman telling me that their maintenance job makes it 50% new. In this case, they blew up half of it and replaced it with lesser parts that didn't work as well. As far as retconning...whew! I don't even know what they were thinking when they made that statement. You and I both are well aware of the endless scrolls here at the 'Keep about retconning. Everyone knows that that happened and to a great degree.
What was, remains....in history, with no playable connection to it unless you "stay in the past." The idea was the separation of times. All material was moving forward, and had nothing to do with the old times other than a tip of the hat. They knew they were wrong, and that's why they gave their pathetic apology.
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The 4e Realms were at least meant as an "answer" to the idea that the map was too filled in, that the lore was inaccessible, and that there wasn't enough room for player characters to be important and tell their own stories. You can disagree - and I know you and much of this forum does - but they're critiques I can in part echo, and the fact that the post-Spellplague Realms have their fans who are not just breathless children ignorant of the old material speaks to them having at least some worth. This was a team of people trying to solve problems that they saw, as part of an edition whose main emphasis was on the game itself as a playable thing, trying to handle a setting they felt had grown significant barriers to practical use at the table.
As to the map was too filled in....they had (10) other land masses they could have built on. I mean, the world wasn't even close to being filled in. Not even close. This was about adding a new market segment into the income stream for another generation. When you have all of the current Realms folk owning a huge amount if not all, of what has been produced, they wanted to add in more stuff. However, the cost of goods sold was likely adding in huge labor costs for keeping the lore going, so they found a way to blow it up and start over without having to have large labor hours for lore consistency.
I get the barrier to enter argument. This is a valid point: I cannot disagree there. By blowing it up as they did, well, we saw what happened. The clear cut short answer is, they should have gotten a focus group together, and worked with existing fan lords, i.e. Master Krashos, Markustay, and many others, to figure out a solution to bridge the gap.
Heck, a perfect example for a wargame is Star Fleet Battles. You had to have a damn jurisdoctorate to play that game after a certain point in time! hahaha It turned people off because the others had a 30 year head start and the rules were many 100's of pages long. So, this point is well made, but they didn't invest in their current, and ravenous, customer base who could have been tapped themselves to expand this out to a new generation. That is the mess up here.
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EDIT: Also, I do want to address-
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Well, while I feel that the execution was poor, I will say I certainly agree with you that the greatest of the offenses has been their utter lack of well....anything of substance since 2007.
-this, as I feel like saying the 4e era lacked lore is just dishonest. You might not like what they wrote, but the FRCG is a proper hardcover almost 300 pages long, the Player's Guide over 150, the Neverwinter Campaign Setting is an astonishingly good text, and then there's something like 70 issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazines each across the edition with something Realms in almost all of them (more than once written by Ed!), plus a number of novel series and several years of Living Forgotten Realms adventures.
Dislike what they did write however much you do, but let's not pretend that that the era was any sort of ghost town for Realmslore.
Oh heck, my outlook wasn't just 100% accurate, it was understated, and let me with evidence substantiate that I am 100% correct and put this refutation to its death with the nuke that you can hear whistling towards the Earth right now to eat its soul...
I analyzed a (13) thirteen year period spanning 2nd to 5th editions. I grouped 2nd and 3rd edition together from 1993 through 2006, and 4th and 5th editions together from 2007 until 2020. Let's take a look at substance. To be clear, I am arguing the substance since that is the point at hand here: the physical, tangible material that was produced which in turn lent to the setting of the Realms.
2e/3e:
Between the years of 1993 and 2006, TSR/WotC produced 103 RPG accessories for the Realms, at an average rate of 7.92 items per year.
4e/5e:
Between the years of 2007 and 2020, WotC produced 32 RPG accessories for the Realms, at an average rate of 2.46 items per year.
When comparing those two together, that demonstrates that 2e/3e had a 322% production rate over and above that of 4e/5e in the same period of time.
Not only did my nuke just take out the aforementioned refutation, but I dropped a couple more just to make sure the area can't be lived in for another billion years....
If you look at the (6) years of production for 4e, and the first (6) years of production outlined in my timeline above (same 13 year period), 4e produced (total) 11 items whereas there were (70) items produced in the other timeframe: 636% more substance. I'd say that nailed the coffin shut, but wait.... there are no coffins: they were caught in that follow-up double nuke special.
It is sheer pants to argue against those data-driven facts. Which brings me to my closing which is a point made in the quote above from Senior Managing Editor Phil Athans and designer Bruce Cordell outlined in Dragon #366 (August 2008) that you cited:
quote:
1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
This matched Ed Greenwood's original conception of the Forgotten Realms. It's what he'd imagined in his early campaigns — which had begun in Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Savage Frontier, and the Sword Coast, and only then explored outward. However, over the intervening decades TSR and Wizards had detailed so much of the Realms that little of it was Forgotten any more. Now, Wizards wanted to restore that sense of mystery.
Well, if they wanted to restore a sense of mystery, they sure as heck succeeded by producing 322% less material. Now we've all been made to wonder a great deal more as to what has been going on in the Realms during the intervening (100) year gap of history. Mystery attained?
As always, I appreciate your love of the Realms, and your arduous defense of your view on them.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 17:55:03
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I'm confused is this thread supposed to discuss WotC's Settings plans or just an extension of the other thread.
If its the former, for settings they half part of Ravenloft, part of the Forgotten Realms, Ravnica, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandia, and in June Theros.
I still think we need a full 5e FRCG type book, but with Corona virus that and other settings might be delayed. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 21:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'm confused is this thread supposed to discuss WotC's Settings plans or just an extension of the other thread.
If its the former, for settings they half part of Ravenloft, part of the Forgotten Realms, Ravnica, Eberron, Wildemount/Exandia, and in June Theros.
I still think we need a full 5e FRCG type book, but with Corona virus that and other settings might be delayed.
They also teased Dark Sun two years ago, with a premade Stream of Many Eyes character being a barbarian from Athas, but it’s clear they’re really struggling with how to implement psionics. I’d also be stunned to see them not adapt Zendikar if they keep up with the Magic crossovers. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 22:12:53
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I actually thought 4E - even with all its other perceived faults - was the first edition which properly positioned and utilized psionics in the core game mechanics.
Psionics were an interesting but game-breaking "optional" bolt-on in 1E, an inconsistent wavering this-way-then-that-way-then-this-way-again bolt-on in 2E, and a poorly-thought-out pile of stats with awful consequences in 3E. The psionic splatbooks and races and classes were optional (unless playing Darksun) which basically fit really poorly alongside everytbing else. The biggest problem was always how psionic monsters (like illithids) were handled.
4E fixed all that by just making psionics another category of keys/templates with some flavour text. Simple solution. Magic, psionics, cybernetics, whatever, all treated the same for combat and the same for utility.
I can't speak for how well (or how poorly?) psionics were explained in the 4E Realmslore, though, since I found it too implausible and unpalatable to accept as a package. But I know we have some 4E players who could share their thoughts. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2020 22:20:06 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 23:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I actually thought 4E - even with all its other perceived faults - was the first edition which properly positioned and utilized psionics in the core game mechanics.
Psionics were an interesting but game-breaking "optional" bolt-on in 1E, an inconsistent wavering this-way-then-that-way-then-this-way-again bolt-on in 2E, and a poorly-thought-out pile of stats with awful consequences in 3E. The psionic splatbooks and races and classes were optional (unless playing Darksun) which basically fit really poorly alongside everytbing else. The biggest problem was always how psionic monsters (like illithids) were handled.
4E fixed all that by just making psionics another category of keys/templates with some flavour text. Simple solution. Magic, psionics, cybernetics, whatever, all treated the same for combat and the same for utility.
I can't speak for how well (or how poorly?) psionics were explained in the 4E Realmslore, though, since I found it too implausible and unpalatable to accept as a package. But I know we have some 4E players who could share their thoughts.
4e psionics actually did work differently from the other power sources, though in a subtle way; rather than Encounter powers (what would be “once per short rest” abilities in 5e) like every other class, they could variably boost their at-will (cantrips in 5e) powers by spending from a pool of power points. Unlike in prior editions, they didn’t interact differently with the world than everything else, but they felt different to play as in a way that was very fun.
I don’t know about the Realms specifically (the 4e Realms book and 4e psionics were several years apart, so I’m not sure the former got any lore about the latter), but the Nentir Vale/Points of Light explanation for psionics was that they were a rarer form of magic (contrasted with the more common arcane, divine, and primal) that had surged in how common it was as a sort of immune system-style defense to increased invasions from the Far Realm. As aberrations menace the world, more people develop psionic talents, to hopefully counteract them. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 23:12:44
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I have the 4e Psionic Power sourcebook, and while the main lore of the book is "core", there is a section about how psionics fits in Eberron, Dark Sun and, of course, Forgotten Realms.
Realmslore is pretty consistent with what is in earlier sources, plus includes new info pertaining the post-Spellplague years. I updated the article about it in the wiki with info from that sourcebook.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Psionics
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 23:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I have the 4e Psionic Power sourcebook, and while the main lore of the book is "core", there is a section about how psionics fits in Eberron, Dark Sun and, of course, Forgotten Realms.
Realmslore is pretty consistent with what is in earlier sources, plus includes new info pertaining the post-Spellplague years. I updated the article about it in the wiki with info from that sourcebook.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Psionics
The more I think about it, the more I really love the Vilhon Wilds as a snapshot of the 4e-era setting. I’d love to run a game there, rife with spellscarred pilgrims and psionic ruins in the shadow of the junglemotes... |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2020 : 00:01:40
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When I think about the 4E Psionics, a couple of classes come to mind that I just smile about. The first is the Battlemind and just how fun it's abilities were. Using Constitution for it's effects was a first for me, because that was always considered a no-no in other editions but felt right here. The fact that it was a defender and the ability to slide enemies around with a hammer was fun times indeed!
The second, and one that really surprised me, was the Monk. I always assumed Ki was a far different beast from Psionic but when you think about one's "inner" power, I can easily see how both could easily be intertwined (mechanically speaking). This was the first time I saw (though haven't played) a Monk class that seemed like it could actually do what it was designed to do without being terrible. I've seen the 5E monk and....eh..it's not terrible. It has some cool features and if you play a jab-and-move style it can stay up longer but the 4E one, the fact that you could play anything from a Strength of Stone style where you're all brute muscle to an elemental-power slinging Firebender from Avatar: The Last Airbender was a rare treat.
The lore of Psionics really hadn't affected it's role in the Realms as far as I know. If anything, it was probably enhanced since the number of other-worldly and Far Realms creatures became more abundant, especially in the Sea of Fallen Stars with the Abolethic Sovereignty |
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A Continued Discussion on Setting Releases
