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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  20:13:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good afternoon everyone,

I was thinking about why trading is not done more efficaciously in the Realms, between certain powers. The Shining South, arguably the most free trade form of capitalism in the Realms, has access to enormous money, and profoundly good trade relations with Halruaa. Why for example are there not powerful portal systems set up between such nations, that allow instant travel, and thus circumnavigating pirates, etc.?

For example: a large portal/gate is established in Heldapan to Halarahh. However, for national security reasons, the two have initial off-site arrival points for goods inspection to ensure that goods meet the standards of the host nation. This extreme convenience would allow for greater taxation, ensure a good entry point for goods/products inspection, and facilitate what would in effect be a JIT (Just in Time Inventory System). The economic impact of such trading policies would bring economic domination the world over and get other countries to start investing this. It would effectively globalize the world through trade, much like we see in the real world with technology.

As for safety, it would be protected with anticipate teleport spells which would delay the arrival of the party coming in by 'x' period of time, and there would be scrying censors on either side of the portal so that any terrorist/enemy group making there way through the portal would have a delay, that could be stopped by closing the portal and shunting them back to the initial location where the locals can detain and incarcerate them.

This kind of stuff is seemingly avoided, and I cannot think as to why. Imagine how different the world would be if Waterdeep was directly connected to a mutual trade port with Calimport, Heldapan, Suzail, Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, etc.?! Wow. It would be epic!

Thoughts?

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  20:30:59  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Portals are a relatively high-level form of magic and the Spellplague broke almost all of them.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2020 :  20:37:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe keftiu,

Thanks for mentioning edition: I should have clarified I am talking pre-Spellplague since the Spellplague never did and never will happen in my Realms.

While the magic is powerful, that just increases the incentive for wizards to get pulled into quite possibly, a new form of wizardry, likely sponsored by the Church's of Waukeen, Mystra, and Azuth to name a few. The economic benefits would be enormous for wizards who want a nice, comfortable life. Sure, you might have some wizards who need to cast, and maintain that portal, the divinations, etc. but the economic growth would make those people indispensable, but not unique, and that kind of government job would be cush! They'd likely get medical through some temple, great pay, and just get to chill and work on Art that helps maintain that portal in the ways mandated by the government.

I don't see that such powerful magic would be deterrent to it happening; rather, I think it would be bring to bear more labor in the work force at a powerful wage. Those wizards spending that kind of money personally, plus getting trade expedited and happening quicker, would make the tax dollars eclipse the ability of getting said wizard in milliseconds.

Hell, you'd likely see War Wizards of Cormyr quitting their jobs to go work for these other guys quicker than they could cast a quickened fireball! lol

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Good afternoon everyone,

I was thinking about why trading is not done more efficaciously in the Realms, between certain powers. The Shining South, arguably the most free trade form of capitalism in the Realms, has access to enormous money, and profoundly good trade relations with Halruaa. Why for example are there not powerful portal systems set up between such nations, that allow instant travel, and thus circumnavigating pirates, etc.?

For example: a large portal/gate is established in Heldapan to Halarahh. However, for national security reasons, the two have initial off-site arrival points for goods inspection to ensure that goods meet the standards of the host nation. This extreme convenience would allow for greater taxation, ensure a good entry point for goods/products inspection, and facilitate what would in effect be a JIT (Just in Time Inventory System). The economic impact of such trading policies would bring economic domination the world over and get other countries to start investing this. It would effectively globalize the world through trade, much like we see in the real world with technology.

As for safety, it would be protected with anticipate teleport spells which would delay the arrival of the party coming in by 'x' period of time, and there would be scrying censors on either side of the portal so that any terrorist/enemy group making there way through the portal would have a delay, that could be stopped by closing the portal and shunting them back to the initial location where the locals can detain and incarcerate them.

This kind of stuff is seemingly avoided, and I cannot think as to why. Imagine how different the world would be if Waterdeep was directly connected to a mutual trade port with Calimport, Heldapan, Suzail, Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, etc.?! Wow. It would be epic!

Thoughts?

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  02:28:29  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First piece of advice: Keep those portals guarded.
Second piece of advice: Don't skimp on security.
Third piece of advice: Enforce rules against carrying rods of cancellation or trans-dimensional items such as portable holes through any portal.
Fourth piece of advice: Wild surges and nilshai do not mix well with portals.
Fifth piece of advice: Publicizing user instructions and whereabouts of a portal is an open invitation to enemy seizure of said portals. Independent parties should sign a Hasbro-style NDA enforced via blade to the soul spell.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  03:10:44  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The easiest way to secure the portals is to put their ends into specially constructed cul-de-sacs outside of the population centers. That will do wonders for preventing would-be attackers from charging into a buzz-saw of kill zones & traps through such portals. Properly placing the gate in a militarily useless location should make losses sustained to secure a portal beachhead too great for any advantage to be gained.

Of course, such portals would be under the purview of governments. Even if said portals were privately created there is no way the governments would not seize & control them as threats to their sovereignty. This is one consequence that would weigh heavily on the makers of portals as they would essentially be endorsing the local governments. How many wizards spend years dedicating themselves to wield cosmic powers in order to become the monkey-boys of bureaucrats & nobles? Finding truly loyal magic makers that agree with the aims of the portal creation would be troublesome, but not impossible. This would be a limiting factor, and not one that would preclude the construction of portal networks.

Another factor that would slow the creation are nations that feel left out of such a network bringing political & economic pressure to bear for their inclusion. There would be several low intensity armed conflicts, high intensity espionage activities, hyperbolic diplomatic spats, denials of port access, retaliatory tariffs, embargoes, and other means countries have for making their displeasure known that are short of full war. Again, this would not halt the construction, but it would cause additional expenses in unanticipated ways.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  07:09:07  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

I completely agree with all that. I think they would have an easy solution with anticipate teleport, as well as Rod's of Cancellation on each end to nuke the portal. Both would make it amazing, with the right military forces.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

First piece of advice: Keep those portals guarded.
Second piece of advice: Don't skimp on security.
Third piece of advice: Enforce rules against carrying rods of cancellation or trans-dimensional items such as portable holes through any portal.
Fourth piece of advice: Wild surges and nilshai do not mix well with portals.
Fifth piece of advice: Publicizing user instructions and whereabouts of a portal is an open invitation to enemy seizure of said portals. Independent parties should sign a Hasbro-style NDA enforced via blade to the soul spell.



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  01:22:28  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot to add some kind of divination blocking field around a portal to prevent scrying on that area or (preferably) areas if both destinations can be covered. Think of a localized version of the effect the Death Moon Orb generated when Szass Tam ordered Eltab to sit on Tharkorsil's Seat. Such a field would make it hard to pinpoint the portal's location and nigh impossible to figure the other side's destination.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  03:24:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Every wizard capable of casting teleport can be a portal wherever and whenever needed. And it's much easier to guard a movable man than a fixed place. Especially if that man is capable of hurling fire and lightning. Sharing a percentage of all trade profits is more affordable than the costs of building/maintaining a standing army and a castle.

Sure, a wizard's loyalties can shift against you. But not if you keep him invested and comfortable. Complainers could always stop complaining and learn how to cast teleport for themselves.

Of course this pragmatic approach opens the question of why nations (like Cormyr and Thay) which have strong economies and an abundance of wizards do not operate mercantile teleport networks. I suppose the answer is usually some euphemism about "national security" (centralized power and control and taxes by the state), considerably more difficult to enforce without rigid borders.
Still, not every nation is Cormyr or Thay. There must be established networks of teleporters-for-profit ... or there must be good reasons why they haven't become established.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Mar 2020 03:36:15
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  20:49:06  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spell casters with awesome, reality bending powers probably did not become great wielders of mystical powers by risking life & limb just to become couriers of the mundane as a career choice. Even starting with the "iffy" teleport that has a chance for something going horribly wrong EACH time it is cast requires a minimum 9th level wizard, 9th level Travel domain cleric, or 10th level sorcerer to accomplish. The spell version that moves non-creatures requires a minimum 13th level wizard, 13th level Travel domain cleric, or 14th level sorcerer to complete, and that is still only for a single object. How many of those mid to high level users are willing to work for a pittance of their true value as masters of the magical arts that can bend nations to their will? It's akin to asking helicopter pilots to deliver pizzas.

How much does it cost to keep a wizard "vested & comfortable?" What about the wizards' own desires, goals, penchants, & vices? It is one thing to have a wizard focused on a military regimen with a clear threat that requires his help and people grateful for the number of times that they've been bailed out of a bloody situation by a timely fireball or wall of stone. It is another to have one's powers treated as an on-demand service about which non-combatants can demand, disrespect, or complain with flippant disregard for the serving wizard. Just like getting potable water by turning a tap, light by flipping a switch, and refuse whisked away just by throwing it out or flushing it down magical service will lose its respect by becoming commonplace and the providers will be treated like a public service that can & should be placed at the beck & call of the public.

The sudden upswing of astral travel can also have negative consequences, just like the spike in magic usage by Netheril brought the onslaught of Phaerimm onto Faerun. There are plenty of astral threats that will take notice of suddenly large amounts of traffic moving through their space in very predictable & frequent lines that may be intercepted or diverted. A far cry from the rare & unpredictable movements of spot teleportation based on situational needs of the current spell casters.

Even if such considerations were handled there are additional obstacles such as the limitations of the spells, the pools of resources needed in coins AND manpower, as well as the traditional hauling businesses that stand to lose if such ventures move forward including nations that would lose out on port of entry fees & tariffs - you can see how costs can stack up. If the networks as envisioned are created then there would be a large number of smaller communities that wither & die out without the lifeline of trade moving through the communities that sprouted up to offer goods & services for caravans & ships. Wide swaths of tamed & civilized land would revert to wilderness as populations shift towards the urban centers that have the portal networks to the exclusion of all else, allowing monsters to reclaim & populate those abandoned regions since there are fewer reasons to check or push back those threats. The natural consequence would be a medieval dystopian world with those crowded into the walled cities vying for the resources to live & the rural folk outside the protection of the walls.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2020 :  11:55:38  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There must be established networks of teleporters-for-profit ...

Ever heard of Aurora's Emporium?
Using teleport circles. Presumably, safer than unanchored teleport, but not as hard to make as use-at-will portals.
Of course, at the time Aurora made it, she was more or less a semi-retired archmage.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  23:45:31  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

Very nice. I like the additions!

The Death Moon Orb is a perfect example!

See, instead of defeating it in a discussion of obscurity and surrender, this has turned into an opportunity of figuring out solutions to something that could indeed be rather revolutionary to trade and magic in the Realms!

Great find good sir! :)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  23:55:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

Hmmm....I can appreciate what your intent is there. However, fundamental theories of economics do not agree with you.

Economies of scale would drive those fixed costs into the dirt. The variable costs you cannot of course minimize as they are going to be proportionate, but the volume of trade increasing at the exponential rate it would would drastically drown out the minimal costs that would be present. If it were the opposite, the modern trading world in the RL would still be using horses, wagons, and be non-internet based. haha

quote:
Of course this pragmatic approach opens the question of why nations (like Cormyr and Thay) which have strong economies and an abundance of wizards do not operate mercantile teleport networks. I suppose the answer is usually some euphemism about "national security" (centralized power and control and taxes by the state), considerably more difficult to enforce without rigid borders.
Still, not every nation is Cormyr or Thay. There must be established networks of teleporters-for-profit ... or there must be good reasons why they haven't become established.


Well, you make a good point. To be honest, I think it has to do with what Ed Greenwood said when he was approached many years ago about doing accessories which delved into economics. He said it was boring to most and that is why it was not done. I think that if there was enough interest, you would have seen it in the novels, accessories, etc. However, it doesn't mean it isn't there. It just isn't discussed in lore because people want the juicy stuff. That's why I am discussing it here. :)

Best regards as always, and thank you for your post! :)





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  03:30:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't accept that traditional answer. Plodding through profit margins might indeed be boring for some. But it's invigorating for others.

And even the most bored and jaded wizard might not be strongly motivated to live the reckless, half-suicidal, dirty, cold, and uncomfortable life of a hero or adventurer. His ability to cast spells like teleport could be a profitable source of employment, or he could simply hire accountants and mercers to do his grunt work, either way he only needs to dedicate a few spell slots and a few hours each day to making boring but steady profit.

We have all seen how many hundred of thousands or millions of gold a wizard needs to equip a decent library and a decent laboratory. Not to mention the costs of spellbooks, spell components, alchemical reagents, premium inks and quills and lab glassware, unusual materials or telesma, and the sundry costs of food and robes and maintaining kind of tower to put everything into. A wizard might strive for rarefied intellect above base worldly concerns but he's still gotta eat and still gotta afford the tools of his trade. Many wizards choose launch their career with gold and glory from epic adventure (and many of those end up dead before progressing far). Other wizards would choose less exciting, less dangerous, equally successful career paths.

[/Ayrik]
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  04:34:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Ayrik,

Well, I of course agree with your well reasoned argument.

I honestly believe as some FR designers have made statements alluding to here: certain specialized fields would be difficult to write about when the outcomes, if consistent, would need to be predicated upon a science that can demonstrate said output.

I'm glad to read that someone else here can appreciate the value of such aspects of the Realms world!

I really do feel that the wizards, and others, who can see the value of innovation (hello Gondan priests and those inspired) bringing a better world to the masses, would have made such efforts and been successful. I think that those who deny that, are just trying to keep a certain feel to the world that doesn't comport with how beings function largely.

Great examples by the way!

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
297 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  03:47:51  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The basic idea is that much of the Realms is in the "Dark Ages", before the Renascence. So generally 1000 to 1380 is a time of ''weaker" magic.

Also while the 3e/3.5E/4E and 5E make magic as easy as just to this and it absolutely always works perfectly.... 1E and 2E were not where that kind. In 1E/2E portals could kill you, transform you, send you to way off wrong locations, steal all your items....or worse. Plus in the Storytelling Realms away from the rulebooks, portals are dangerous too.

Also 2E did have a bit about Mystra guarding portals and making sure there was no mass control or trade.....and she made portals dangerous.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2020 :  08:52:21  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my campaigns, I postulate that most portals built with modern magics are subject to fraying that correlates with the level of traffic. Portals that only a few people go through per month may last many centuries without any problems, but if many tons go through per day, it multiplies the odds that unsavoury extraplanar powers become aware of the portal, it shifts somehow or otherwise invites otherworldly hazards.

If you check the history of most places that made heavy use of portals, the eventual consequence was almost always a planar invasion of some sort. So there almost has to be some mechanism which makes portals unsafe in the long term, even if those effects are not immediately apparent on an adventuring time-scale (and thus not mentioned in the spell write-ups).

The Imaskari might have known secrets of steadier and safer portal designs, considering how long their civilization lasted with heavy use of portals and that the end was not actually related to anything uninvited coming through the portals. If so, those secrets seem to have been mostly lost in the modern Realms, leaving most mages with access only to the kind of portals which tend to break down with catastrophic results within a few decades if used heavily enough.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2020 :  14:43:10  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was working on something like this but I don't have all the spells completely fleshed out yet. First, there is a 5th level spell that essentially just enchants a location to make it easier to teleport to. Then, there is a 3rd level spell that can be used to teleport but only to one of the previously set locations (max 2 people since the enchanted area is only 5 ft by 5ft).

To be able to move goods, I have a spell called Improved Item. Basically an Item spell that can work over an volume and not on a single item (so, several boxes could be made easily transportable).

Lastly, a wand was created that had both the capability of using these "transfer portals" and the improved item spell. The result: a single individual can transport a wagon-load equivalent of material over vast distances. I would imagine that Aurora made something very similar.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention Anti-Divination Shell. A 5th level spell that prevents divination magic from passing from one side to the other. Area of effect is a sphere 10 ft in diameter per level.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 16 Jul 2020 15:08:11
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  03:01:13  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 5th level spell I mentioned:

Set Teleport Locus
(Alteration/Enchantment)
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: A 5-foot by 5-foot area
Saving Throw: None
This spell enchants a specific area to act as an aid for teleportation spells. If a caster is using a teleport spell to travel to this location, the magic of this spell will guarantee that the teleport is errorless. The area to be target of this spell must be immobile (you cannot create a teleport locus on a ship or in a wagon).

The locus provides no benefit if it is the source location for a teleport and not the destination (of course, if both source and destination locations are loci then the errorless benefit does occur). It also does not affect any other spell that targets an area even if that spell is one that transports someone/something by means other than teleportation (i.e. spells that create portals or movement via another dimension like a shadow walk spell).

The material components of this spell are a brush and a jar of pigments made from octopus or squid ink and powdered diamond (2,500 gp worth).

The 3rd level spell that can utilize the loci:

Transfer
(Alteration)
Range: 0
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 5
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None
The transfer spell is used to teleport from one existing teleport locus to another on the same plane. This teleport is errorless due to the magic of the loci ensuring the accuracy of the teleport. The limit is one person at level 5 with an additional person every three levels after that so that it can be 2 people at level 8, 3 at level 11, 4 at level 14, and so on. The weight limit is 250 pounds of encumbrance per person teleported. The people to be teleported must be touching the caster or someone else who is touching the caster (a circle of people holding hands is fine).

The person who is transferring will get a brief glimpse of the destination and has one segment to cancel the transfer (this means that the absolute minimum time needed for the spell to fully function is two segments). If more than one person is transferring, everyone gets a glimpse with the option of halting the teleport for themselves only. The teleport will not happen if there is something has happened at the portal site that will result in the person transferring materializing in solid matter.

The 4th level Improved Item spell:

Improved Item
(Alteration)
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 4 hours/level
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 5 cubic feet/level
Saving Throw: Special
Basically just a more powerful version of the 3rd-level spell item, this spell was created to aid in the transport of goods by being able to affect any non-living, inanimate collection of items (pile of coins, crates, blocks of stone). Liquids cannot be affected unless they are already in a container. If the duration expires or the caster decides to end the effect and the goods are inside another container, the container will be destroyed by the sudden increase in volume by the returning goods. If this happens in a portable hole or some other extradimensional space that doesn’t have enough room left, the container is ruptured with the usual loss of the contents.

The material component is the one or more targeted items. They are not harmed in any way by this spell.

And the 5th level Anti-Divination Shell (which is really helpful when hunting patrols from The Darkhold because they are monitored from The Darkhold):

Anti-Divination Shell
(Alteration/Enchantment)
Range: 0
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round/level
Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: A sphere 10 feet in diameter/level
Saving Throw: None
The spell will prevent all divination magic from being able to enter or leave the area of effect. Divination magic can operate normally inside the sphere but cannot exit the sphere. The sphere will be opaque to anyone using divination magic to view into/out of the sphere. However, normal and non-magical vision of all types (including infravision) will be able to view into and out of the sphere.

The area of effect is determined at casting time and cannot be moved once cast.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  03:07:27  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And, the wand I mentioned:

Wand of Trading: A simple, wooden wand with gold filigree, this wand provides several functions that makes it easier to transport goods. Each function has its own command word. The functions are:
• For one charge, the wielder can invoke a Drawmij’s beast of burden spell for 12 hours. This effect doubles the amount of weight a mount or other beast of burden can carry for the duration.
• At a cost of two charges, the wielder can activate a transfer. This operates at 8th level so that it can affect up to 2 people. The wielder of the wand does not have to be one of the persons transported. However, the wielder of the wand does select the destination locus.
• The final function costs three charges and allows the wielder to utilize an improved item spell on up to 35 cubic feet of material for up to 28 hours.
These wands are rechargeable.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  03:07:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Item is such an overlooked spell. "Is that a campfire in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"

Of course, my PCs might as well have named the spell Delayed arson.

[/Ayrik]
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  03:18:21  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Item is such an overlooked spell. "Is that a campfire in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"

Of course, my PCs might as well have named the spell Delayed arson.



Funny you should mention that:

Delay Spell Effect
(Alteration)
Level: 3
Range: 0
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: The caster
Saving Throw: None
This spell will allow the caster to delay the effect of the next spell cast. The caster decides on the length of the delay when this spell is cast and cannot change it. It is possible for the caster to decide to not delay the next cast spell and that will just cause this spell to be wasted.

The amount of delay granted by this spell is up to 1 round per two caster levels above level 5 (i.e. one round at level 5, two at 7, three at 9, four at 11, and the maximum of five rounds at level 13). No other magic can extend this delay.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  05:02:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, item has a maximum duration. Up to 1 hour per level in some 2E prints, or up to 1 day (max) in other 2E prints. We usually accepted the flat 24 hour max duration, I can't remember why.

The PCs would strategically place or scatter a bunch of itemized fires (apparently just curious little scraps of cloth with pictures of fires on them) then leave. They'd be most of a day's ride away by the time the fires (re)ignited.

[/Ayrik]
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  15:41:05  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My copies of the 2e PHB and WSC Vol 2 both have Item with a 4 hour/level duration so I haven't seen that. The improved item was developed so that no coin was left behind while adventuring. Greed is one heck of a motivator, too.

Delay Spell Effect was an assignment for an apprentice to come up with. It has been used mostly to serve as a misdirection ("How could I have cast that spell when I was over here with you?") One suggestion was, if timed right, to have 3 damage spells go off at once but enemies generally just won't wait for 4 rounds for you to set that up.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2020 :  17:19:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Item is such an overlooked spell. "Is that a campfire in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"

Of course, my PCs might as well have named the spell Delayed arson.



Lol, tell me about it. Itemize 5 rather large "jugs" of oil, also a campfire... tie them all to an arrow.... granted a long setup for the return on investment, but on downtime days, something to do.

Oh, and that improved item spell above, you might as well call that a mass catastrophe in motion. I can see someone casting that on huge barrels of oil (in glass) as well as things like chicken grease that's congealed and throwing in a campfire.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Jul 2020 17:26:52
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2020 :  18:48:32  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other uses:
Since it doesn't affect the animate or living, dig people out of an avalanche, find someone hiding in a hay stack.

It can be used to preserve food/carry provisions (if a fire doesn't continue to burn then food won't rot).

Since it doesn't affect magic items, separate magic items out in a pile of items.

Hmmm, idea for a higher level spell...say level 7 or so. It CAN do living so that people could be smuggled either for slavery or war. It would be great for slavers because they could travel through "civilized" areas without fear of getting caught and you wouldn't have to feed the slaves on the journey. For war, it could be used to get "commandos" rapidly into areas where you cannot teleport them in. Or, Itemize a few army units and you have an instant army inside an enemy's fortifications.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2020 :  21:53:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Other uses:
Since it doesn't affect the animate or living, dig people out of an avalanche, find someone hiding in a hay stack.

It can be used to preserve food/carry provisions (if a fire doesn't continue to burn then food won't rot).

Since it doesn't affect magic items, separate magic items out in a pile of items.

Hmmm, idea for a higher level spell...say level 7 or so. It CAN do living so that people could be smuggled either for slavery or war. It would be great for slavers because they could travel through "civilized" areas without fear of getting caught and you wouldn't have to feed the slaves on the journey. For war, it could be used to get "commandos" rapidly into areas where you cannot teleport them in. Or, Itemize a few army units and you have an instant army inside an enemy's fortifications.



Bear in mind, you CAN do a lot with that, you need to weigh the game balance issues before making it available. Like I was saying, that improved item spell simply becomes a major catastrophe much beyond any other spell of similar level by enabling the quick and easy relocation of large amounts of explosives in an area. Throw in multiple uses of the same trick over and over in an area and you can quickly see how it can get abused.

That's just me thinking about it for 30 seconds. I'm sure with more thought, I could come up with even more issues. For instance, there's no limit placed on the spell for what all can be in it. So, I can in theory fill it with anvils, bricks, metal spikes, etc... and have these raining down on people by breaking the item above them. Castles would be decimated by individuals on flying mounts, etc... dropping bundles of anvils on them, etc... Then we can further break it down by including ideas like bottles of acid, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Jul 2020 21:54:03
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2020 :  23:02:18  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spell description says that the Itemized can only be reverted back to normal by either by tossing it on a solid service or by the command of the original caster (without just waiting for the duration to end). So, those anvils are going to be basically a rug until they hit the ground. If the caster is the one doing it so they can try for a raining effect, they are going to have to risk a very large rain of missile weapons of all types since they are going to have to be touching the Itemized to command it to revert to normal. Plus, anvils are not going separate by much. The area of effect is 5 cu/ft per level. Even at level 20, that is only 100 cu/ft so you are talking about an area (if each anvil is 2 ft tall) of 50 sqft. That is an area that is 5 ft by 10 ft. That may stink for the couple guys underneath it but the rest of the guys on the wall will be ok (unless the anvils do enough structural damage to take out a section of the wall).

Plus, if it is the actual caster doing the delivery, why use this spell when you have a huge number of other spells that can be used. That 20th level caster is going to have some really powerful choices in taking out a wall's defenders and the wall itself. If you absolutely want to drop something, create a wall of force at an angle above the target and then cast wall of iron over and over. At 12th level, you get a wall that is 180 sqft instead of 30 sqft using the improved version at 12th level.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2020 :  15:41:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Spell description says that the Itemized can only be reverted back to normal by either by tossing it on a solid service or by the command of the original caster (without just waiting for the duration to end). So, those anvils are going to be basically a rug until they hit the ground. If the caster is the one doing it so they can try for a raining effect, they are going to have to risk a very large rain of missile weapons of all types since they are going to have to be touching the Itemized to command it to revert to normal. Plus, anvils are not going separate by much. The area of effect is 5 cu/ft per level. Even at level 20, that is only 100 cu/ft so you are talking about an area (if each anvil is 2 ft tall) of 50 sqft. That is an area that is 5 ft by 10 ft. That may stink for the couple guys underneath it but the rest of the guys on the wall will be ok (unless the anvils do enough structural damage to take out a section of the wall).

Plus, if it is the actual caster doing the delivery, why use this spell when you have a huge number of other spells that can be used. That 20th level caster is going to have some really powerful choices in taking out a wall's defenders and the wall itself. If you absolutely want to drop something, create a wall of force at an angle above the target and then cast wall of iron over and over. At 12th level, you get a wall that is 180 sqft instead of 30 sqft using the improved version at 12th level.



the hitting of the solid surface is the thing. Attach to arrow (even a blunt one), aim at ceiling, wall, etc.... or simply at an individual. The issue is more with the spells level versus what it can do (i.e. 4th level). The options you are describing are all higher level spells cast in combination. Hopefully its cool to give feedback, as I appreciate such myself. Spells are one thing that are very hard to adjudicate yourself, because you are automatically inclined to only see what you pictured it being used for. Like Ayrik pointed out, a LOT of us abused Item back in earlier editions simply because it was low level.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2020 :  17:08:22  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Spell description says that the Itemized can only be reverted back to normal by either by tossing it on a solid service or by the command of the original caster (without just waiting for the duration to end). So, those anvils are going to be basically a rug until they hit the ground. If the caster is the one doing it so they can try for a raining effect, they are going to have to risk a very large rain of missile weapons of all types since they are going to have to be touching the Itemized to command it to revert to normal. Plus, anvils are not going separate by much. The area of effect is 5 cu/ft per level. Even at level 20, that is only 100 cu/ft so you are talking about an area (if each anvil is 2 ft tall) of 50 sqft. That is an area that is 5 ft by 10 ft. That may stink for the couple guys underneath it but the rest of the guys on the wall will be ok (unless the anvils do enough structural damage to take out a section of the wall).

Plus, if it is the actual caster doing the delivery, why use this spell when you have a huge number of other spells that can be used. That 20th level caster is going to have some really powerful choices in taking out a wall's defenders and the wall itself. If you absolutely want to drop something, create a wall of force at an angle above the target and then cast wall of iron over and over. At 12th level, you get a wall that is 180 sqft instead of 30 sqft using the improved version at 12th level.



the hitting of the solid surface is the thing. Attach to arrow (even a blunt one), aim at ceiling, wall, etc.... or simply at an individual. The issue is more with the spells level versus what it can do (i.e. 4th level). The options you are describing are all higher level spells cast in combination. Hopefully its cool to give feedback, as I appreciate such myself. Spells are one thing that are very hard to adjudicate yourself, because you are automatically inclined to only see what you pictured it being used for. Like Ayrik pointed out, a LOT of us abused Item back in earlier editions simply because it was low level.



I like your feedback. It certainly wasn't discussed during the creation of the spell. I'm going through what I would say if a player said what they were going to do with it.

For the arrow-thing, I would say it won't work. You would have to roll it around the arrow because if you pierce the image, you destroy the items contained. So, you would have a rolled image hit the floor and I would say it would not de-itemize in that case. It has to be unrolled when it hits the surface. The only way for it to de-itemize in that situation is for the duration of the spell to expire. Even then, I would require the material that is keeping it rolled up to fail a saving throw. If it makes it, the items contained are permanently lost.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2020 :  00:01:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is that most MMORPGs have some sort of item tokenizing spell/ability. So a character can make large heavy things (or collections of things) into tiny lightweight portable versions. Most players seem to use these things to tokenize all the epic loot they're hoarding or collecting but are not (yet) actually using. Not for provisions, not for emergency tools/supplies, not for transporting dragonhoards back to town.

[/Ayrik]
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  06:04:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe bloodtide_the_red,

I am really interested in this. What are you referencing that concludes that? I don't ask that antagonistically, by the way, just curious what leads you to that viewpoint.

I referenced Ed answering a question regarding what nations fit the Dark Ages, and this is his response:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/11/24/what-part-of-forgotten-realms-would-best-suit-these-requirements-dark-ages-or-medieval-tech-level/

Effectively, there are some that meet that requirement, but by not all being in there, we know that most are in fact not in the equivalent to the Dark Ages from Earth.

Interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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