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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  17:09:42  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Good morning everyone!

I am starting up this scroll to talk about sandbox campaigns in the Realms. However, I first feel it good to acknowledge the other scroll that has been inactive for (9) years at http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14541&SearchTerms=sandbox campaign. I have a sneaking suspicion it may be best not to just jump back into that one, so here I am with this one. :)
__________________________

Anyone here do sandbox campaigns? I run all of mine in such a manner. It takes me about a year to put one together (I feel there has to be some minimal guidance to get it going I mean) and they usually last about four years.

I am going to describe my method, but thought I would get this posted so you all can start posting too!

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:11:33  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Ctphero,

I use sandbox campaigns when the players are sufficiently familiar with the Realms from a pre 4e perspective and are familiar with my DM style (admittedly not for everyone). There is nothing to stop a first level party from trekking through the Evermoors and confronting them with trolls or a fog giant. It is not an offense to flee immediately, even if the party has a paladin of Torm or battleguard priest of Tempus in its ranks. If a player interprets every encounter with a not-friend as a prelude for combat, he or she faces the negative consequences pretty darn fast.

Less experienced players clearly get my guidance and typically the campaign starts localized, often in a metropolis such as Waterdeep or Suzail. That said, railroad campaigns disgust me. By the time the characters get to 4th level (ten to twelve gaming sessions), I convert to a sandbox if that makes sense. If you have follow-up questions, do not hesitate to ask them.

I am anxious to read your method(s) to design sandbox campaigns.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:28:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Delnyn,

Very, very nice! Yeah, I do something similar.

My approach though is:

1) Build a meta-theme for the campaign
2) Take 3 - 5, level 1 - 20 campaigns, and rework their individual story theme to tie into the metatheme in story sub-arcs
3) Apply the now large scale campaign over roughly 2 - 4 million square miles of Toril terrain
4) I don't scale anything, so completely similar to you, whatever is in the area, is in the area
5) Utilize Elminster's Ecologies, and other regional sourcebooks, i.e. Shining South, to retool random encounter tables for respective places, i.e. Durpar, Halruaa, Calimshan
6) Utilize revamped seasonal weather tables for each region that I am running the campaign in. I've got about 15 nations completely revamped in that regard.
7) Go back to step 2 with everything just mentioned done, and add-in relevant story arcs from smaller mini-adventures that have been retooled to relate to major story arcs in step 2. I then add in relevant NPC's through creation to operate in the background as things progress in the campaign, so as the campaign moves on, so do their plans.

In the end, for the above, I usually end up having about 25 - 40 total arcs that they could go down.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Senior Scribe Ctphero,

I use sandbox campaigns when the players are sufficiently familiar with the Realms from a pre 4e perspective and are familiar with my DM style (admittedly not for everyone). There is nothing to stop a first level party from trekking through the Evermoors and confronting them with trolls or a fog giant. It is not an offense to flee immediately, even if the party has a paladin of Torm or battleguard priest of Tempus in its ranks. If a player interprets every encounter with a not-friend as a prelude for combat, he or she faces the negative consequences pretty darn fast.

Less experienced players clearly get my guidance and typically the campaign starts localized, often in a metropolis such as Waterdeep or Suzail. That said, railroad campaigns disgust me. By the time the characters get to 4th level (ten to twelve gaming sessions), I convert to a sandbox if that makes sense. If you have follow-up questions, do not hesitate to ask them.

I am anxious to read your method(s) to design sandbox campaigns.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2020 :  12:20:05  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master cpthero2,
Do you have any policies/conventions for handling downtime? In the early to mid 2000's and 3.0 transitioned to 3.5, I met an extraordinarily astute DM who treated downtime as the 4th leg of a campaign alongside combat, exploration and social interaction. The players and DM had to pay very close attention to the clock time (of the local Realms environment) and the Calendar of Harptos as an operational cost.

Characters faced challenges and earned XP while repairing/crafting equipment, researching spells, tending to the spiritual needs of your god's worshippers, catching up on guild business, or just plain returning to the "day job". Downtime was an excellent contingency when one or more players announced they could not make such and such session. The clock ticked merrily away while the characters were pursuing their individual interests.

What would be considered a downtime challenge? Perhaps after that last skirmish with the gnoll raiding band, your mercenary company needs its light infantry's armor and weapons fixed and all soldiers need to be healed to full health within one tenday. All available staff are needed to pitch into the effort, including the PC fighter and cleric. Perhaps the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors wants the PC wizard to share and teach that handy cantrip jakes on demand with other guild members.

What About Craft and Profession Skills?
This DM knew how to put Craft and Profession skills - normally considered throwaway skills - to really good use. Profession skills could be used as social interaction skills in lieu of Diplomacy or Gather Information when dealing with fellow member in the same profession. Profession skills could also be used as bardic knowledge with dealing with the subject matter of the profession. Craft and Profession skills in general synergized with each other and with other skills, especially social interaction skills. For example, Profession(herbalist) would synergize with Heal and with Craft(poison-making) when creating plant-based or fungi-based medicines or poisons. Likewise, Profession(herbalist) would synergize with Knowledge(nature) and Knowledge(geography) when locating the source plants and fungi as fast as possible, i.e., before the business competitors or the disease/poison kills the patient.

There is a whole lot more I would like to say, but let's stop here and address any questions.

Edited by - Delnyn on 15 Mar 2020 12:23:09
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  00:14:24  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Delnyn,

My apologies about the delayed response!

quote:
Do you have any policies/conventions for handling downtime? In the early to mid 2000's and 3.0 transitioned to 3.5, I met an extraordinarily astute DM who treated downtime as the 4th leg of a campaign alongside combat, exploration and social interaction. The players and DM had to pay very close attention to the clock time (of the local Realms environment) and the Calendar of Harptos as an operational cost.


I run it real time. They shop real time, etc. If they want to move overland at an expedited rate, then I randomize the periods of movement so that they have no sense of association between when checks are made for the local environs and how much time goes by. I proportionately weight the more frequent checks to ensure there is not an over or under representation of encounters relative to the local ecology.

I don't push the game along either though. They are telling their own story. So, if they are getting bored, that's because of them, not me. I am just handling the world, gods, NPC's, monsters, etc.

quote:
Characters faced challenges and earned XP while repairing/crafting equipment, researching spells, tending to the spiritual needs of your god's worshippers, catching up on guild business, or just plain returning to the "day job". Downtime was an excellent contingency when one or more players announced they could not make such and such session. The clock ticked merrily away while the characters were pursuing their individual interests.


Since they gain XP by RP'ing and combat (1/3 of a level progression per game session), it matters not what they do with that time. However, I always bake into the sandbox campaign, many layers of things going on in the background. So that way, even if the players decide to munchkin the sessions by sitting there and eventually gaining their 20 levels or whatever, it matters not: the damage is done by their doing nothing.

quote:
What would be considered a downtime challenge? Perhaps after that last skirmish with the gnoll raiding band, your mercenary company needs its light infantry's armor and weapons fixed and all soldiers need to be healed to full health within one tenday. All available staff are needed to pitch into the effort, including the PC fighter and cleric. Perhaps the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors wants the PC wizard to share and teach that handy cantrip jakes on demand with other guild members.


There is no downtime. They are telling their own story. They do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want. So, there is no sense of "downtime" in that case. Every moment, of every game session is them living in the Realms as real people. :)

quote:
What About Craft and Profession Skills? This DM knew how to put Craft and Profession skills - normally considered throwaway skills - to really good use. Profession skills could be used as social interaction skills in lieu of Diplomacy or Gather Information when dealing with fellow member in the same profession. Profession skills could also be used as bardic knowledge with dealing with the subject matter of the profession. Craft and Profession skills in general synergized with each other and with other skills, especially social interaction skills. For example, Profession(herbalist) would synergize with Heal and with Craft(poison-making) when creating plant-based or fungi-based medicines or poisons. Likewise, Profession(herbalist) would synergize with Knowledge(nature) and Knowledge(geography) when locating the source plants and fungi as fast as possible, i.e., before the business competitors or the disease/poison kills the patient.


Ewwww! Great question of course! I put those into the game quite a lot.

These play huge into the game in ways that they may or may not see. When they are making checks for situations, I have synergy stacks that go into things from their professions, crafts, etc. I also have people interact with them as they would in encounters. Being a Lawyer or Judge within the ranks of Tyr, but also a professional lawyer (ranks in that) can be enormously beneficial to solving a quest, problem, adventure, by using local laws to perhaps gain pressganging advantages to get additional support for the raid on the bad guys place.

Thoughts?

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  01:52:06  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I generally like games with a strong premise. This isn't to say that players don't drive the fiction - that's my entire MO - but I do like something with a clear direction. There are few things I dread more than "we all made unrelated characters independently and now they adventure together because that's what the game is," and I find that a session zero and a thematic core to all focus on help a lot. My next campaign should be about a new chapter of Harpers operating in Saerloon, and I told my players they have free rein to come up with fitting characters from Sembia, returned Netheril, Cormyr, or the Dales, so long as they have a belief that drives them towards this action.

As for a broader, sandboxy scope, that would depend on where I set the campaign. Somewhere with a lot of different regions like Chessenta begs for it, or possibly something in the frontiers-y areas of the Vilhon Reach/Wilds or the Shaar.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  16:21:26  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe keftiu,

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from with that outlook. I mean, heck, there is a reason why it is a dominantly and legitimately used method.

I dig the Harpers in Saerloon idea. I also agree that Chessenta has some great opportunities for a sandbox campaign! Ever thought about a Lost Empires campaign?

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  22:25:05  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe keftiu,

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from with that outlook. I mean, heck, there is a reason why it is a dominantly and legitimately used method.

I dig the Harpers in Saerloon idea. I also agree that Chessenta has some great opportunities for a sandbox campaign! Ever thought about a Lost Empires campaign?

Best regards,







I kind of loathe the Lost Empires! “Earth exists and is part of this world” is my least-favorite trope in fantasy, and as a huge Egypt nerd Mulhorand especially has always rankled me. I enjoy Chessenta for having a Hellenistic-But-Weird vibe, but I was very grateful for the shakeup the rest of the region got in the Spellplague.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2020 :  22:30:18  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe keftiu,

I can certainly appreciate that! haha

Yeah, the whole Mulhorand thing with, "I stole your people, now what?" thing, followed up by the Intergalactic Spaceship full of angry projections was a stretch. lol

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2020 :  13:37:01  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thought you all would get a smile from this Matt Colville video on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkXMxiAGUWg
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2020 :  07:40:29  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Delnyn,

haha, that was fantastic! Thanks for the share!

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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wildeman
Seeker

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  14:48:39  Show Profile Send wildeman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, is it possible to create a game that strikes a happy medium?

Meaning, using a smaller environment... maybe a specific location like a city such as Waterdeep... but maintaining the sense of player agency/free will to explore and "adventure" within that environment. Perhaps only having 1 main adventure arc, but having several smaller adventures... side quests... that can be played, left, come back to, etc. The side quests have some connection back to the larger main adventure arc so the PCs eventually can find their way back again.
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  15:14:47  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker wildeman,

Well, I think you could; however, I've yet to figure it out. The idea behind the sandbox is that you want to take the governor off of the players characters so they can go and do whatever they like. If whatever is in front of them is engaging enough with the freedom of choice to keep them going, then you're good. The problem I ran across many years ago when I tried the idea you propose is some set of circumstances changes and they wildly say, "We're leaving Aglarond to the Raurin Desert to seek out Velsharoon's point of ascendancy!", or whatever thing is being pursued.

As to your specific example with Waterdeep, that is a great city for that kind of campaign as there is a lot going on. However, players get fickle and decide, we've had enough of the city, let's head to Old Owl's Well and do the 'x thing there for a bit. So, certainly, even that notion in a 4 million square mile area I've prepared can have issues, but I've yet to have that pop up yet.

That is largely because the Realms are not free like the USA or Europe for movement. You don't just get guaranteed entry to Thay, and if you are a mage entering Lutcheq not knowing... well, that was awkward.

There are many cultural things that slow you down and allow a DM to address things by adapting in between game sessions. I've got enough material to keep them going and if they move out of the area, I can adapt in those two weeks in between games. :)

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  19:34:01  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing with a sandbox game is the players have to be aware that they are in charge and are capable of leading their own story in a shared manner. What I mean by this is that almost all role play gamers have been trained on stimulus-response scenarios from tabletop to computer games - one of their senses is triggered by a problem and they react to solve it. This repeated play style reinforces a passive approach to the story with the players becoming hands-off with the helm of their characters' narratives. Because the players are conditioned to plug themselves into pre-written stories and ride them to victory, they usually jump at the first sign of trouble and never give a thought to how they will achieve the accolades & heroic endings they wish for their characters. This usually leads the players to "chew on the scenery" and enter a tail-chasing loop of frustration unless the DM leads them by the nose to a constructed railroad of a story that is no longer sandbox in play.

One preset requirement of RPGs that is either causal or reinforcing of this condition is the concept of the party. The party is essentially an excuse for playing like a multi-headed, multi-limbed entity instead of an affiliated group of independent people. Even fantasy writers contracted to make stories for TSR with the party concept eventually forced their handlers to accept their stories where the party split up mid-story because each of the protagonists had differing goals & ideals to pursue for defeating world-threatening evil. Game modules and CRPGs also are heavily influenced by the party-as-protagonist school of scenario design that has been the formula of play for decades. Players inundated with these group-centric scenarios typically have not learned story sense and often do not have deep character development for their PCs so they tend to "Ouija-Board-it," where everyone is gathered in the party but somebody is pushing the pointer where they want it to go while everyone else is passive.

The players have to be "deprogrammed" in advance for a sandbox game to work. Part of this deprogramming is to map out how cooperative play will be between the players to ensure that no "large personality" among the players will crowd out the others time at the table and even the "shrinking violets" have ample opportunity to make their will known for their characters to shine.

I have been conducting role play experiments for the last two decades regarding the starting party dynamic and found the usual practice of everyone creating their PCs on their own prior to their introduction to the starting setting has been disastrous for cooperative-style play, even though that is the default for party-style play. The imaginations of the players and their concepts contrast or clash with each other resulting in the "forced into a party with the other offenders" common scenario usually in the flavor of a chance pub encounter. That may be fine for a concentrated adventure or for throw-away PCs flung at a one-shot dungeon crawl, but players who wants something more than killing things and solving somebody else's problems will want to achieve their own goals. How can a PC go about fulfilling one's destiny when one is tethered to a violent band of ne'er-do-wells (that really is what adventurers start as) whom have no stake in the dreams of that one?

Then there is the matter of this fictional world and what it means to the players. How often have we seen the CRPG where it becomes standard practice for the games' protagonist(s) to blithely trespass and rob from the NPC denizens of the game world? Players are essentially trained to have no empathy for these fictional individuals, the observation of which by those outside of gaming have lead to not entirely erroneous revulsion at the anti-social and sociopathic behaviors exhibited during play. A sandbox-style game can quickly dissolve into sadism, nihilistic catharsis, and indifference if the things outside of their own PCs have no meaning for the players and their characters represent nothing more than vicarious power trip or wish fulfillment fantasies.

The most successful sandbox games I have run have been built using player developed NPCs, places, and histories with the players saying aloud what each wants their own PC to achieve overall. Only then do I allow the players to start making their PCs with one of their core concepts being how they relate to each other - specifically, why would they go into danger for one another. Several of the NPCs and at least one prominent figure in a position of power are assigned as cooperative player/DM developed conflict-containing relationships that are separate for each PC (i.e., a warrior might have been a deputy with the town's begrudgingly respectful sheriff, a child-hood friend of a disparaging blacksmith's naive son, and bullied a cowardly burglar into being a semi-reliable criminal informant). As a DM, when the PCs are confronted with a daunting challenge or their last clue leads to a dead end it is music to my ears when one of my players chirps "guys, I know somebody that can help! Well, maybe, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there!" because play suddenly opens in new and sometimes unexpected directions as the players seize upon this self-agency with the story/world. What's more, these new avenues are fun as everyone is interested in how the unrepentant thief is going to ask for a favor from the mother superior of Tyr who remembers providing him shelter only to be repaid with the orphanage's funds being stolen by him.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.

Edited by - SaMoCon on 30 Oct 2020 22:42:30
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  20:37:31  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I kind of loathe the Lost Empires! “Earth exists and is part of this world” is my least-favorite trope in fantasy, and as a huge Egypt nerd Mulhorand especially has always rankled me. I enjoy Chessenta for having a Hellenistic-But-Weird vibe, but I was very grateful for the shakeup the rest of the region got in the Spellplague.



I went with Mulhorand being more like Hyboria's Stygia (and it's Set worshipers more in tune with that setting as well), Unther more like Shem and Chessenta being much like Hyboria's Corinthia.

Of course, I also have the Five Shires south of Sembia...I love me some halflings in Faerun.

As for my players, mostly they are my wife and three children; and our play is all over the place with stop and go playing in a half dozen different games (not all of which are in Faerun, but in my amalgam Grey Realms).

I love both Set Modular play (just one shot module "campaigns") and open ended "do as you will" games.

I honestly favor modular play these days because of the lacking attention span of my family.

Although...my son has been playing his Assassin from Phlan that fled to Waterdeep and later became a magic-user apprentice of Khelben for some time now...though that campaign is played in spurts.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2020 :  05:51:32  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

Sir, that was an absolutely fantastic post! Thank you for contributing here. I think a great many people will walk away happy having read that.

quote:
The thing with a sandbox game...


I normally response to quoted pieces to be concise; however, I agree with everything you just wrote, 100%, so I have no reason to respond line by line here. I do what you are talking about, but I'll give you some insight, as I'd love to have your feedback on it.

First, before players are even at my table, I vet them as potential players to ensure they have the chops to RP in a very dynamic setting. I'll break that down in a second below. Once they are vetted and I think they are a good fit, I help them write a character bio (I help them with the lore as that can be daunting), and most importantly, I help they write a psychological profile. The psych profile is the most important because it is literally the psychological script they follow every session. In addition to the gratification of RP'ing well, my players also can earn karma at the end of the session if they RP'ed their characters as they are defined in the profile. Karma can be spent from a list of options that are quite appealing to players, for their characters. Some are mechanic and some are RP. This means that your very sound point regarding the need to have cohesion in the group is attained because not only do I know who these characters are, but I then have RP sessions in person or on Discord about the character meeting other characters predicated on their storylines, and from there, I have the entire group meet up in a believable way. It effectively gets rid of the ethical quandary issues at least from the onset. Beyond that, as growth occurs during the campaign, that may change how things go, but at least from the onset, there is a believable, sensible, story and profile for each character. Additionally, depending on how good the bio and importantly the profile is upon creating the character, a character can start at a higher level and earn karma out the gate.

For me, the RP chops I spoke of means specifically that they can:

  • Comprehend how to play the profile that has been built (I will have separate one on one sessions if needed to help them get into character), i.e. move through emotions
  • Understand the cultural traits of where they came from and how that plays into their character and how it is expressed at the table, i.e. a farm boy is still a farm boy with a Ph.D. in being a wizard
  • They don't play to party "dynamic" to "succeed"; rather, they play the character as the character is profiled
  • They have the motivation to play the full range of the character they have profiled emotionally, and intellectually (as well as possible)
  • They understand, appreciate, respect, and cooperate with the other players so that everyone can maximize this group experience to the degree that everyone clearly wants


Since everyone has been vetted, I know they all meet the RP chops list, so it has worked well thus far. Here's to hoping it continues! :)

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2020 :  05:55:48  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

It is great to see you in this scroll! I hope this finds you well good sir!

quote:
As for my players, mostly they are my wife and three children; and our play is all over the place with stop and go playing in a half dozen different games (not all of which are in Faerun, but in my amalgam Grey Realms).


You certainly are fortunate to have a wife and three kids down for that kind of gaming! I have one of my daughters is, but my son is still very young (2) so we're not quite there yet with him. I will make a gamer of him though for sure! haha

quote:
I honestly favor modular play these days because of the lacking attention span of my family.


I can certainly appreciate how that would need to be a thing. My daughter gets the modular play for sure because of the attention span issue. haha

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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