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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 18:43:24
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Hello fellow DM's,
I am looking to see what you all think would be, if any, value associated with having a more robust description of the economics of the Forgotten Realms?
I think it would enhance challenge in a non-combat manner by making nation-states, organizations, city-states, and other governmental bodies more real by having those trade differences, monetary differences, and more. Afterall, a Waterdhavian Harbormoon is worth 50 Dragons in Waterdeep, but worth only 5 Nobles in Sembia. Wouldn't that suck leaving Waterdeep with so much value invested (while in Waterdeep) into your Harbormoon's (easier to carry), only to find out that upon arriving in Selgaunt it is worth 10 times less? Ouch!
I look forward to input! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 18:48:25
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| I think that’s the sort of thing that’s fun to read about and gets thrown out two sessions in during actual play. Look at how economic mechanics have been handled in recent game design: most either abstract it (Rogue Trader’s Profit Factor, Blades in the Dark’s Coin, Red Markets’ Bounty) or discard the idea of tracking player funds entirely. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:05:20
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
I have not actually heard of, or looked at (of course) any of those; however, I am now going to do so. I think that is fascinating to see what you argue hasn't worked well at all.
So, a hypothetical situation here for you: if a DM had a modeled program that was handling different issues in the background such as caravan speeds, large block volumes of goods being moved (some get through some don't with modeling) from one locale to another, currency valuation taking place in the background, mining activities taking place again in the background, and other aspects of an economy that made it where the players characters only ever interface with the economy, effectively on a retail level, would that add more realism to you? This is all assuming that that model existed and didn't require work on your end for your character other than RP'ing negotiations for trade, etc.
As to your possible other solution, of not tracking players funds at all, what do you feel would be the solution to attaining raw materials for powerful spells (diamond dust for a resurrection spell for example), purchasing weapons, armor, or other goods that would be utilized for an adventure?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I think that’s the sort of thing that’s fun to read about and gets thrown out two sessions in during actual play. Look at how economic mechanics have been handled in recent game design: most either abstract it (Rogue Trader’s Profit Factor, Blades in the Dark’s Coin, Red Markets’ Bounty) or discard the idea of tracking player funds entirely.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:48:25
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I don’t think I’m coming to a high fantasy setting used in adventure games for “realism,” would be my rebuttal to that. Part of why I’m a 4e enthusiast is because the worldbuilding centered immediate use at the table; supporting fluff is nice, but as a DM I want my setting materials to be actionable. What you describe sounds like a ton of bookkeeping for minimal return on that investment.
As for things that would normally be purchases, the above applies, too. Need a resurrection done? You do a favor for a priest who can do it. Go earn/steal that enchanted sword you want. Rack up debts. To crib from Blades again, make it a long-term project that the crafter is paying for in time they could use for something else. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:54:17
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
Fair enough. I can completely appreciate that outlook. It sounds like in terms of what I am asking about, it would be aimed at those people who are looking for a significant fluff at the table experience as opposed to the "immediate" and "actionable" outcome. That makes a great deal of sense as to why 4e works well for you. I'm glad it exists so that you get that kind of game you're looking for! :)
I appreciate the input!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I don’t think I’m coming to a high fantasy setting used in adventure games for “realism,” would be my rebuttal to that. Part of why I’m a 4e enthusiast is because the worldbuilding centered immediate use at the table; supporting fluff is nice, but as a DM I want my setting materials to be actionable. What you describe sounds like a ton of bookkeeping for minimal return on that investment.
As for things that would normally be purchases, the above applies, too. Need a resurrection done? You do a favor for a priest who can do it. Go earn/steal that enchanted sword you want. Rack up debts. To crib from Blades again, make it a long-term project that the crafter is paying for in time they could use for something else.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 16:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Hello fellow DM's,
I am looking to see what you all think would be, if any, value associated with having a more robust description of the economics of the Forgotten Realms?
I think it would enhance challenge in a non-combat manner by making nation-states, organizations, city-states, and other governmental bodies more real by having those trade differences, monetary differences, and more. Afterall, a Waterdhavian Harbormoon is worth 50 Dragons in Waterdeep, but worth only 5 Nobles in Sembia. Wouldn't that suck leaving Waterdeep with so much value invested (while in Waterdeep) into your Harbormoon's (easier to carry), only to find out that upon arriving in Selgaunt it is worth 10 times less? Ouch!
I look forward to input! :)
Best regards,
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
My gears are turning right now. You described the roots of an adventure (low to mid level) where the party must go to a moneychanger, who might be a tad too curious/suspicious. ("Why are these people dumping perfectly good coins?") The party gets tailed because of a fictitious motive, and the surveillance is anywhere from annoying to inconvenient to dangerous.
Maybe the adventurers can go to a "no questions asked" business located in Skullport such as the Thayan Enclave (which is technically not under Thayan law), with all the intrigue that entails. All just to get suitable coins to spend in Sembia, but it beats the "Ouch!"
The high level/epic adventure would involve meddling with the monetary policies and exchange rates of multiple governments such as Amn, Sembia, Cormyr, Tethyr, you name it. That is guaranteed to attract scrutiny of a most hostile kind. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2020 : 16:53:57
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Learned Scribe Delyn,
Exactly! That's what I like to convey to people is that normally "mundane" stuff can be just as big of an adventure as the "Save the Princess" story too. In fact, it often provides more immersion because we can relate to it easier. :)
I'm glad you liked it. I am running a campaign on Obsidian Portal right now called, A Troubled Economy, and is based on a lot of background economic stuff. You can possibly interact with it depending on the course you take through the campaign, and in some other cases you do not at all.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Hello fellow DM's,
I am looking to see what you all think would be, if any, value associated with having a more robust description of the economics of the Forgotten Realms?
I think it would enhance challenge in a non-combat manner by making nation-states, organizations, city-states, and other governmental bodies more real by having those trade differences, monetary differences, and more. Afterall, a Waterdhavian Harbormoon is worth 50 Dragons in Waterdeep, but worth only 5 Nobles in Sembia. Wouldn't that suck leaving Waterdeep with so much value invested (while in Waterdeep) into your Harbormoon's (easier to carry), only to find out that upon arriving in Selgaunt it is worth 10 times less? Ouch!
I look forward to input! :)
Best regards,
Senior Scribe cpthero2,
My gears are turning right now. You described the roots of an adventure (low to mid level) where the party must go to a moneychanger, who might be a tad too curious/suspicious. ("Why are these people dumping perfectly good coins?") The party gets tailed because of a fictitious motive, and the surveillance is anywhere from annoying to inconvenient to dangerous.
Maybe the adventurers can go to a "no questions asked" business located in Skullport such as the Thayan Enclave (which is technically not under Thayan law), with all the intrigue that entails. All just to get suitable coins to spend in Sembia, but it beats the "Ouch!"
The high level/epic adventure would involve meddling with the monetary policies and exchange rates of multiple governments such as Amn, Sembia, Cormyr, Tethyr, you name it. That is guaranteed to attract scrutiny of a most hostile kind.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 21:10:40
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Economic Modeling - Useful at all or Not? 
That said, consider something like Birthright domains or faction mechanics in Stars Without Number (it's in free version, too).:
quote:
The faction system in Stars Without Number is intended to provide a GM with a constant stream of background
activity, adventure hooks, and visible setting reactions to PC actions. It is an optional system, one that a GM
can take or leave as their own campaign suggests, but it can provide an interested GM with tools to simplify
the business of running the campaign’s background.
The faction system is not meant to be a standalone game that doesn’t require GM involvement. It’s
not balanced for equivalence between sides, isn’t designed to incentivize optimal play choices, and some
situations will certainly require a GM to referee them. The system is, however, built to produce the kind of
output that a working GM is likely to find most useful.
A simple (tri stat) turn based strategy mechanics to generate randomized-but-meaningful dynamic background.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 09:26:24
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Master TBeholder,
That is an awesome find: thank you for sharing it with me!
I like where that is going.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
502 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 21:10:19
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If you are looking for info, 3.0 & 3.5 have some good resources for commerce.
The 3.0 FRCS, p. 88-90, has a big map with trade routes and goods, as well as a brief description of Merchant Companies and Costers.
The 3.5 DMG2, p. 180-189, has info on individual businesses, costs for starting/running a business, and an interesting table of monthly encounters. If you consider using this system, please ask me about it. As written its pretty much unusable, with a couple of minor tweaks it becomes a good bit better.
The 3.5 FR Power of Faerun, p. 62-83, has a whole chapter titled Play the Market, with information on trade routes and a wealth of information on goods, markets, costers, etc. This is one of my favorite D&D books. Not sure how much Ed worked on this chapter, but he was able to answer a question on it for me a while back that I could not get an answer to anywhere else.
The 4E Ed Greenwood Presents - Elminster's Forgotten Realms, p. 102-131, has a whole chapter titled Money Matters. Again a lot of information on how trade works. A bit of repeated material also. Though technically a 4E resource it can basically be used with 3.5 no issue since it is all world details, no rules.
2E had its content too, Aura's Whole Realms catalogue has some, and there are scattered bits here and there about trade routes, distances for ship voyages, etc.
I always love commerce but rarely do my players care, so it is always something in the back of my head to drives things behind the scenes. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 31 Mar 2020 21:11:07 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 17:03:32
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| Thank you for the references. I am diving back in on my history of Iriaebor project and trade routes should help immensely. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2020 : 21:49:13
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Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
Following up after I lost track of some of these scrolls.
Any progress made on that trade routes topic? :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 13:57:52
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I for one would definitely love a more robust description of the economics of the Forgotten Realms! I think my main motivation, though, is for 'background' purposes to make the realms feel more real, and make the experience more immersive. I don't know if I would actually want to have an adventure centered around economic transactions, per se, unless the players took the lead themselves and wanted to move in that direction (by say, starting a merchant outfit and engaging in trade themselves).
The background purposes I have in mind are in, say, an encounter involving a caravan destroyed by bandits, the trade goods that are recovered by the players afterwards have some originality and logic and detail that makes the Realms seem more like a living, breathing world with its own internal logic.
But I think the other main reason to delve into the economics of the realm is to better understand the nature of its politics. Different nations and powers at be will be heavily concerned with the sources and flows of wealth, and endeavor to capture and preserve these economic sources of value. This I think is all very consistent with existent Realmslore. The Zhentarim are heavily involved in trade, are they not? So investigating the nature of trade may give you creative ideas about adventures involving the Zhentarim, and so on.
So anyways, I'm definitely interested in doing a deeper dive into the economics of the realms! But I think more for a 'low frequency' and 'worldbuilding' purpose, rather than attempting to actually make a computer program that simulates prices and flows of goods in real time as the players go on their adventures. I think doing such a real-time program only really makes sense if the players are very powerful economically speaking. If the players become extremely wealthy "coin mountains" and heavily involved in trade, it makes sense to have them alter trade patterns and prevailing prices. But it could perhaps be done in a more ad hoc way rather than a formal computer program.
But yes! I would love to do a bigger deep dive into the economic matters of the Realms |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 16:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
Following up after I lost track of some of these scrolls.
Any progress made on that trade routes topic? :)
Best regards,
I was only looking at this with Iriaebor in mind but I suppose a new tab could be added to the travel times spreadsheet that could list each city's exports (I would have to look to see if the imports are listed for each city). That could give an idea of what could be lucrative trade routes (I did exactly this when I ran a Star Trek:The Role Playing Game campaign). I would suggest that if this kind of analysis is done that players do not have direct access to it. They should have to go through talking with traders, suppliers, and coasters to see what they know. Of course, they would most likely lie to keep competitors out of their particular routes. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 21:44:30
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Senior Scribe TheIriaeban,
I do completely agree with you. That is meta information that is just for the eyes of the DM for sure. Could you imagine having the trade routes figured out for all the Realms in such detail though? It would be amazing!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2020 : 00:14:26
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Acolyte Wendolyn,
quote:
I for one would definitely love a more robust description of the economics of the Forgotten Realms! But I think the other main reason to delve into the economics of the realm is to better understand the nature of its politics. Different nations and powers at be will be heavily concerned with the sources and flows of wealth, and endeavor to capture and preserve these economic sources of value.
You good sir, hit the nail on the head for sure. As you can see by the discussion that Senior Scribe TheIriaeban and I are having is that the trade routes, showing the movement of people, diffusion of culture, etc. is a huge thing. Those are times when spies could be plying their trade, and more. Not only is it interesting, but it is also great for adventuring stories! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Economic Modeling in the Realms - Useful or Not?
