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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Dec 2019 : 01:20:21
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Xvim is listed as having Psionic Strength of "V" in FR6 "Dreams of the Red Wizards" as per AD&D 1e rules. This means he has between 91 to 110 Psionic Strength points and also that he has 2 minor and 1 major Psionic Disciplines.
Has Xvim ever shown any psionic power in any sourcebook that any of you know about? I'm trying to think of what powers he may have.
I'm going to be using him in my home campaign soon, and this is the only part I don't have fleshed out yet.
For completeness sake:
quote:
IYACHTU XVIM, "The Godson"
Demigod
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 18"
HIT POINTS: 96
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 9-12/9-12 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See Below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: True Sight
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
SIZE: L (12' tall)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
WORSHIPERS' ALIGNMENTS: Lawful Evil
SYMBOL: A pair of green, glowing eyes on a black field
PLANE: Prime Material (Acheron)
CLERIC/DRUID: nil
FIGHTER: 15th Level Fighter
THIEF/ASSASSIN: nil
MONK/BARD: nil
PSIONIC ABILITY: V (91-110 PSPs, 2 minor, 1 major)
S:22 (+4, +10), I:17, W:16, D:20, C:20, CH:17
Soul Blade, a giant +3 LE scimitar that drains 2 life energy levels whenever it hits a living opponent.
Can create darkness 15' radius about himself at will (can he see through this?)
Once every 66 turns he can plane shift from Acheron to the Prime Material Plane or vice versa.
Touch of silver causes Xvim 2-12 hit points of damage per strike.
Per the Deities and Demi-Gods book, page 8:
Comprehend Languages: as the spell, except the deity also gains the ability to speak or write the language in question.
Detect alignment: this ability enables the deity to detect the alignment of objects or creatures with no error.
Gate: the deity can only attempt to gate in other beings of the same mythos. (not sure that he has this power...and what would come of it if he did)
Geas: as the spell, but with a range of 9" (I don't think he has this power either)
Quest: as the spell, but with a range of 9" and no saving throw (I don't think he has this power)
Teleport: this is an inherent ability which allows the deity to teleport from pace to place or from plane to plane with no error. (He doesn't have this ability, or he wouldn't have the plane shift power I don't think which is only once per 66 turns)
True seeing: as the spell. (he has this power listed)
All Saving Throws are 2
EDIT: talking in the 1357 DR timeframe on this
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Edited by - Dalor Darden on 27 Dec 2019 01:37:15
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2019 : 02:16:42
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A lot of entities, divine and otherwise, had psionic scores listed in the 1E material -- but that was never explored in print that I'm aware of. RAS touched on the breaking of psionics during the ToT, in one of his earlier books, but aside from that and his psionic drow character, and a trilogy in 3E, psionics has mostly been ignored in Realms novels.
I love psionics, but I think it's always been too much of an afterthought, with D&D rules. With the exception of Dark Sun, where they specifically built the setting from the ground up to be heavy psionics, psionics has long felt like a bolt-on that was designed long after the rest of the game and never properly integrated. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Dec 2019 02:19:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2019 : 16:39:15
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In my games I always roll secretly for psionics for every character. Of those times, I think perhaps twice a character has had them...at least a character that the player decided to keep.
That is with AD&D 1e though...with AD&D 2e I never had a player that decided to play a psionicist.
I usually pick "invisible" psionic powers for NPCs too. Disciplines that operate as seemingly magical; and then too I rarely use psionic combat. However, having said that, I plan to use Xvim's psionics to their fullest because, as a Demi-God, he has few magical powers at all.
I'm thinking, right now, of giving him the Minor Disciplines of Levitation and Molecular Agitation and the Major Discipline of either Energy Control or Shape Alteration.
I'm leaning more heavily toward Shape Alteration as a means to explain how he travels about without being noticed by others. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2019 : 17:00:47
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Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters?
I've always wondered how Ed used him in his own games...I know that his adventurers actually went against Xvim at times.
Also, I wonder what happened to his sword once he was "gone" in later years? I giant +3 Lawful Evil scimitar that drains two levels per hit is a pretty powerful weapon! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte
Spain
48 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 08:20:24
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I think it was a pity Xvim was erased in a way so... cavalierly in 3e. While I like a godly father versus bastard devil son as much as anybody, this was mean. Xvim had lots of potential.
Mayhaps he isn't dead, but back to a devil status? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2019 : 10:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think it was a pity Xvim was erased in a way so... cavalierly in 3e. While I like a godly father versus bastard devil son as much as anybody, this was mean. Xvim had lots of potential.
Mayhaps he isn't dead, but back to a devil status?
My personal theory is that Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim -- the whole rebirth thing was a sham, to get more of Bane's former followers. There are a lot of odd things about Bane 2.0; he's either some mixture of Bane and Xvim, or it's a grand scheme by Xvim. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2020 : 01:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters?
I've always wondered how Ed used him in his own games...I know that his adventurers actually went against Xvim at times.
Also, I wonder what happened to his sword once he was "gone" in later years? I giant +3 Lawful Evil scimitar that drains two levels per hit is a pretty powerful weapon!
I think Gruumsh would like to have a word. Orcs in 2e were LE, as was the orc pantheon, so there's no real reason to worship the mongrel son of a human god as opposed to almighty Gruumsh, Crusher of Elves. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2020 : 01:54:22
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Orcs worship Bane on a regular basis; so it isn’t too much of a stretch.
I agree that Gruumsh is a better orc god; but he is also not a very progressive power that keeps “his” people rather barbaric. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 12:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters? (snip)
Gygax got it wrong: Orcs are chaotic evil per Holmes, 3.xE, 4E, and now 5E. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 17:05:28
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| Got it “wrong”? LOL |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 22:54:09
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Yeah... I'm personally no fan of Gary Gygax, but it's hard to say that the guy that put orcs in the game got their alignment wrong. And since he predates ALL flavors of D&D, I'm not going to accept changes in later editions as proof he was wrong.
Also, I have no idea who the referenced Holmes is. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 23:49:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, I have no idea who the referenced Holmes is.
The reference likely quote:
TSR hired outside writer John Eric Holmes to produce the Basic Set as an introductory version of the D&D game.
source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_Basic_Set |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 01:48:26
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The basic set had no good or evil alignments. Everyone “bad” was chaotic and everyone “good” was lawful. Even elves were lawful, so the Basic rules are a poor reference for this.
Each edition has its merits and I’m not going to get into an edition debate. I play what I play, and so orcs are Lawful Evil for the purpose of what I’m discussing...especially as I’m quoting 1e AD&D stats for Xvim. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 02:00:17
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I think orcs have generally been portrayed as CE, rather than LE, so I don't have an issue with that being their alignment. Gary Gygax may have intended otherwise, but the game grew beyond him, and a lot of things were changed along the way.
I'll not argue with someone wanting to stick with earlier material, though; it's obviously a Your Mileage May Vary thing, and when it comes to the Realms, I myself prefer a lot of the earlier stuff to the later stuff. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 02:05:34
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In the Forgotten Realms orcs have certainly been Chaotic; but in Greyhawk they were certainly Lawful.
You are right Wooly; it is a “your mileage may vary” thing not worth debating.
It just works for me that orcs and elves are diametrically opposed as alignment is concerned. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 12:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The basic set had no good or evil alignments. Everyone “bad” was chaotic and everyone “good” was lawful. Even elves were lawful
Elves?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think orcs have generally been portrayed as CE, rather than LE, so I don't have an issue with that being their alignment.
Yup. Fits primitive brutes running on might-makes-right.
Of course, it doesn't mean all the variations should be CE. Scro are Lawful, for one. And since not all the pantheon is CE, their followers have to somewhat reflect this. |
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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 15:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The basic set had no good or evil alignments. Everyone “bad” was chaotic and everyone “good” was lawful. Even elves were lawful
Elves?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think orcs have generally been portrayed as CE, rather than LE, so I don't have an issue with that being their alignment.
Yup. Fits primitive brutes running on might-makes-right.
Of course, it doesn't mean all the variations should be CE. Scro are Lawful, for one. And since not all the pantheon is CE, their followers have to somewhat reflect this.
I am a huge, huge fan of the scro! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2020 : 15:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In the Forgotten Realms orcs have certainly been Chaotic; but in Greyhawk they were certainly Lawful.
You are right Wooly; it is a “your mileage may vary” thing not worth debating.
It just works for me that orcs and elves are diametrically opposed as alignment is concerned.
I thought about adding that as a caveat -- that it was their depiction in the Realms.
I'm not as familiar with Greyhawk; I read the Gord the Rogue and Mika the Wolf Nomad novels, and one or two supplements (including the silly Castle Greyhawk one), and that was about it. The setting didn't grab me... So I am entirely unfamiliar with its orcs. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 02:41:40
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Acolyte Khorvaen,
I agree that it was a pity dumping Xvim like that. I think he was absolutely fantastic! I loved his shenanigans in Tymora's Luck. Fantastic!
I'd rather have him around than Bane!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think it was a pity Xvim was erased in a way so... cavalierly in 3e. While I like a godly father versus bastard devil son as much as anybody, this was mean. Xvim had lots of potential.
Mayhaps he isn't dead, but back to a devil status?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 02:43:44
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Master Rupert,
I can go with this myself. Xvim has shown himself full of patience when needed (basement of Zhentil Keep), and great at scheming: Tymora's Luck.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think it was a pity Xvim was erased in a way so... cavalierly in 3e. While I like a godly father versus bastard devil son as much as anybody, this was mean. Xvim had lots of potential.
Mayhaps he isn't dead, but back to a devil status?
My personal theory is that Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim -- the whole rebirth thing was a sham, to get more of Bane's former followers. There are a lot of odd things about Bane 2.0; he's either some mixture of Bane and Xvim, or it's a grand scheme by Xvim.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 02:46:48
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Master LordofBones,
You would know what would be awesome, is if somehow Xvim and Gruumsh got together, mind wrecked Waukeen (after return from Grazz't) and got a great business deal going with some evil ass Orc farming to produce economic slave labor to ultimately facilitate some epic growth plan of the Zhentarim in the north, while furthering the goals and "civilization" of both Gruumsh and Waukeen! :)
I am certain a tidal wave of hate (wink, wink, nod, nod to Xvim here) is about to roll in on me, but come on...it's got potential! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters?
I've always wondered how Ed used him in his own games...I know that his adventurers actually went against Xvim at times.
Also, I wonder what happened to his sword once he was "gone" in later years? I giant +3 Lawful Evil scimitar that drains two levels per hit is a pretty powerful weapon!
I think Gruumsh would like to have a word. Orcs in 2e were LE, as was the orc pantheon, so there's no real reason to worship the mongrel son of a human god as opposed to almighty Gruumsh, Crusher of Elves.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 02:48:54
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Senior Scribe Derulbaskul,
I have to give you cred for the chutzpah! hahaha
I would not myself call out the overlord of D&D, even though I agree with Master Rupert in not being an enormous fan myself: I am quite grateful for his fine D&D creation. ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters? (snip)
Gygax got it wrong: Orcs are chaotic evil per Holmes, 3.xE, 4E, and now 5E.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 03:10:16
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Great Reader Darden,
Agreed. Of course, the alignment system is a sham these days, and frankly has been a terrible system from the beginning as well. It is so overly simplistic to the reality of what different beings experience. Of course, that difficulty is what designers were trying to find a happy middle ground on, and now we're stuck with an appeal to tradition. Banal, but....ehhh.....what can you do?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The basic set had no good or evil alignments. Everyone “bad” was chaotic and everyone “good” was lawful. Even elves were lawful, so the Basic rules are a poor reference for this.
Each edition has its merits and I’m not going to get into an edition debate. I play what I play, and so orcs are Lawful Evil for the purpose of what I’m discussing...especially as I’m quoting 1e AD&D stats for Xvim.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 03:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I can go with this myself. Xvim has shown himself full of patience when needed (basement of Zhentil Keep), and great at scheming: Tymora's Luck.
Best regards,
Xvim was trapped in that basement. I hardly think an inability to leave shows patience.
Tymora's Luck, though, is part of why I think Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim in disguise. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 07:38:51
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Master Rupert,
You know, I thought the same thing for a bit. If I recall correctly though, I think it said he plotted during that time.
I think the god of hate showed some pretty good patience to concentrate enough on anything other than pure, unadulterated hate to plot even minimally. :)
Yeah, I can see why you think that is Xvim in disguise. That would be so awesome!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I can go with this myself. Xvim has shown himself full of patience when needed (basement of Zhentil Keep), and great at scheming: Tymora's Luck.
Best regards,
Xvim was trapped in that basement. I hardly think an inability to leave shows patience.
Tymora's Luck, though, is part of why I think Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim in disguise.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 14:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
You would know what would be awesome, is if somehow Xvim and Gruumsh got together, mind wrecked Waukeen (after return from Grazz't) and got a great business deal going with some evil ass Orc farming to produce economic slave labor to ultimately facilitate some epic growth plan of the Zhentarim in the north, while furthering the goals and "civilization" of both Gruumsh and Waukeen! :)
I am certain a tidal wave of hate (wink, wink, nod, nod to Xvim here) is about to roll in on me, but come on...it's got potential! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters?
I've always wondered how Ed used him in his own games...I know that his adventurers actually went against Xvim at times.
Also, I wonder what happened to his sword once he was "gone" in later years? I giant +3 Lawful Evil scimitar that drains two levels per hit is a pretty powerful weapon!
I think Gruumsh would like to have a word. Orcs in 2e were LE, as was the orc pantheon, so there's no real reason to worship the mongrel son of a human god as opposed to almighty Gruumsh, Crusher of Elves.
Assuming that Gruumsh gives a hoot about what some uppity half-demon mongrel thinks, what's in it for him? He doesn't really bear Waukeen any emnity, and the goddess herself allows NE clerics. If sh's not smiting the Thayvians for the slave trade, she's not really going to give a hoot about Zhentarim economic policies. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 16:58:38
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Master LordofBones,
I think of it predicated on the very edicts of Gruumsh:
- Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish.
- Rise up in hordes and seize that which is rightfully yours.
- Raid. Kill. Conquer.
Gather and breed: with military forces of the Zhentarim and the economic influence of Waukeen (assuming mind wrecked again), you could see safe breeding grounds for orcs to build numbers that could allow them to........ "Rise up in hordes and seize that which is rightfully yours." Specifically they could "Raid. Kill. Conquer." the Elves in all places as they've been saying they would for a long time.
Waukeen's part in this would be to (again, assuming she's been somehow roped into this) start little economic wars that create small hot wars in areas here and there to spread the military and diplomatic forces of certain countries thin or thinner, to allow for the orcs when they are built up to go and get their business on.
Just an outline of an idea at this point, but it seems like it has the elements there. Especially with all of the conniving that Xvim did in Tymora's Luck.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
You would know what would be awesome, is if somehow Xvim and Gruumsh got together, mind wrecked Waukeen (after return from Grazz't) and got a great business deal going with some evil ass Orc farming to produce economic slave labor to ultimately facilitate some epic growth plan of the Zhentarim in the north, while furthering the goals and "civilization" of both Gruumsh and Waukeen! :)
I am certain a tidal wave of hate (wink, wink, nod, nod to Xvim here) is about to roll in on me, but come on...it's got potential! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Another thing that just occurred to me: wouldn't Xvim make an excellent god for Orcs and other Lawful Evil monsters?
I've always wondered how Ed used him in his own games...I know that his adventurers actually went against Xvim at times.
Also, I wonder what happened to his sword once he was "gone" in later years? I giant +3 Lawful Evil scimitar that drains two levels per hit is a pretty powerful weapon!
I think Gruumsh would like to have a word. Orcs in 2e were LE, as was the orc pantheon, so there's no real reason to worship the mongrel son of a human god as opposed to almighty Gruumsh, Crusher of Elves.
Assuming that Gruumsh gives a hoot about what some uppity half-demon mongrel thinks, what's in it for him? He doesn't really bear Waukeen any emnity, and the goddess herself allows NE clerics. If sh's not smiting the Thayvians for the slave trade, she's not really going to give a hoot about Zhentarim economic policies.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 18:31:18
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| The whole "seize that which is rightfully yours" and "Raid. Kill. Conquer." things that Gruumsh pushes seem to be at odds with the economic gig that Waukeen pushes. A successful orc invasion is going to destroy an economy, and leave Waukeen high and dry. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 18:58:45
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Master Rupert,
I can certainly appreciate that. That's why I was thinking that since the first part would be, "Gather and breed, and your numbers shall flourish", that would take time to allow that to happen, unless Orc gestation times are extremely quick (read, a couple of months approximately). During that time where many orcs are being created to build their military forces, a mind wrecked Waukeen would be unfolding plans to cause little economic fires throughout the world in places where those economic downturns could draw military and diplomatic forces away, enough, to give the orcs when they attack an advantage.
Of course, this is all presupposed on a successful attempt at in one manner or another, getting Waukeen duped or controlled to go along with such a plan. That's how stories start though, right? :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The whole "seize that which is rightfully yours" and "Raid. Kill. Conquer." things that Gruumsh pushes seem to be at odds with the economic gig that Waukeen pushes. A successful orc invasion is going to destroy an economy, and leave Waukeen high and dry.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 19:35:14
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| I don't like the viability of a plan where the first step is "brainwash a deity into acting against their own portfolio". Just about any plan at all would have a better chance of success. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 19:56:42
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Master Rupert,
I can certainly appreciate the challenge that it means in terms of chances of success.
There are though items that have been made such as the Cyrinishad that was enchanted by Cyric himself to brainwash anyone who hears its words from start to finish by one of his worshipers, to include even other gods.
I am not saying that the Cyrinishad would be the means specifically, but perhaps this is a multi-step effort in creating that epic artifact to allow for such things?
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the viability of a plan where the first step is "brainwash a deity into acting against their own portfolio". Just about any plan at all would have a better chance of success.
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Higher Atlar
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Iyachtu Xvim
