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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2019 : 23:21:01
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Is there any lore that indicates druid ranks? There are archdruids... but what are the descending titles?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2019 : 23:29:39
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The only list I know...from highest level (23rd) to lowest (1st):
Hierophant of the Cabal
Arcane Hierophant
Mystic Hierophant
Numinous Hierophant
Hierophant Master
Hierophant Adept
Hierophant Initiate
Hierophant Druid
The Grand Druid
The Great Druid
Archdruid
Druid
Initiate of the 9th Circle
Initiate of the 8th Circle
Initiate of the 7th Circle
Initiate of the 6th Circle
Initiate of the 5th Circle
Initiate of the 4th Circle
Initiate of the 3rd Circle
Initiate of the 2nd Circle
Initiate of the 1st Circle
Ovate
Aspirant |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 03 Dec 2019 23:30:42 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 14:21:31
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| And there may be several parallel hierarchies? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 16:36:59
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Um, the rules from 2e, as I remember it, had few limits until the one below Archdruid, and the rank of Archdruid, which of can be only one.
To take the title, you had to duel the current Archdruid! Or else not level up.. The prize though, is to be an litteral "druid pope" doing non-adventure stuff. And abdicate, turning ex-Archdruid, allowing to level up past Archdruid rank.
That is the super-generic rule from core, as far I remember. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 22:33:44
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| This opens up a huge can of worms, so I'd recommend staying away from it. Druids in my book are not organized like the catholic religion, so I can't see there being a single druid who rules over all others. If that's the case, does the hierarchy exist for each separate church? Is there a separate hierarchy for the northern portion of a church from the southern? Do the Moonshaes have their own hierarchy? I'd simply go with something along the lines of people are given titles that help equate to their power level (if you even have to do that)…. and by that … just as an idea... a druid that can cast 6th level spells might be considered "a master of six mysteries" or "an acolyte of the 6th order" or give "ranks" based on groupings of 3 levels (i.e. those who can cast 3rd level and under are acolytes, 4th-6th are druids, above that start making up titles like every 2 levels. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 22:47:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This opens up a huge can of worms, so I'd recommend staying away from it. Druids in my book are not organized like the catholic religion, so I can't see there being a single druid who rules over all others. If that's the case, does the hierarchy exist for each separate church? Is there a separate hierarchy for the northern portion of a church from the southern? Do the Moonshaes have their own hierarchy? I'd simply go with something along the lines of people are given titles that help equate to their power level (if you even have to do that)…. and by that … just as an idea... a druid that can cast 6th level spells might be considered "a master of six mysteries" or "an acolyte of the 6th order" or give "ranks" based on groupings of 3 levels (i.e. those who can cast 3rd level and under are acolytes, 4th-6th are druids, above that start making up titles like every 2 levels.
I've always felt that the "one druid above all" approach was odd, even back in the days of 1E. Just in terms of physical distance, it's a mess -- if Druid Prime lives in the Dales and dies of old age, how is his runner-up in the Silver Marches gonna know? If that runner-up gets promoted to Druid Prime, how are druids in Luiren gonna know that? What's there to stop there from being multiple Druids Prime, all ignorant of each other?
Also, it really doesn't make sense that defenders of nature have to duke it out to see who's top dog. "Oh, I could get a meaningless promotion? Let me forsake my duties here, travel 1000 miles one way to fight a bunch of other people, then come back here, with or without that promotion. I'm sure everyone around here will play nice and not take advantage of my prolonged absence..."
I can see having a top person within a specific faith, but druids in the Realms have a bunch of options, so the whole idea of a unified druidic hierarchy really isn't workable. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Dec 2019 22:48:29 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 23:27:57
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| I wasn't trying to set up an overall Druid Primate. Just wanted some idea of what the different abilities were called. The interwebs has some info, such as; Bard, Ovate, Initiate, etc. The suggestion of something like "adept of the 6th mystery" is a good start. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2019 : 03:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This opens up a huge can of worms, so I'd recommend staying away from it. Druids in my book are not organized like the catholic religion, so I can't see there being a single druid who rules over all others. If that's the case, does the hierarchy exist for each separate church? Is there a separate hierarchy for the northern portion of a church from the southern? Do the Moonshaes have their own hierarchy? I'd simply go with something along the lines of people are given titles that help equate to their power level (if you even have to do that)…. and by that … just as an idea... a druid that can cast 6th level spells might be considered "a master of six mysteries" or "an acolyte of the 6th order" or give "ranks" based on groupings of 3 levels (i.e. those who can cast 3rd level and under are acolytes, 4th-6th are druids, above that start making up titles like every 2 levels.
I've always felt that the "one druid above all" approach was odd, even back in the days of 1E. Just in terms of physical distance, it's a mess -- if Druid Prime lives in the Dales and dies of old age, how is his runner-up in the Silver Marches gonna know? If that runner-up gets promoted to Druid Prime, how are druids in Luiren gonna know that? What's there to stop there from being multiple Druids Prime, all ignorant of each other?
Also, it really doesn't make sense that defenders of nature have to duke it out to see who's top dog. "Oh, I could get a meaningless promotion? Let me forsake my duties here, travel 1000 miles one way to fight a bunch of other people, then come back here, with or without that promotion. I'm sure everyone around here will play nice and not take advantage of my prolonged absence..."
I can see having a top person within a specific faith, but druids in the Realms have a bunch of options, so the whole idea of a unified druidic hierarchy really isn't workable.
My understanding, at least for the Realms, was that there was one Grand Druid and druidic hierarchy per geographical region (i.e. the Sword Coast North, the Moonsea North, the Coldlands, the Dalelands, etc.), which gave PCs more wiggle room to "ascend the ranks".
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2019 : 03:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My understanding, at least for the Realms, was that there was one Grand Druid and druidic hierarchy per geographical region (i.e. the Sword Coast North, the Moonsea North, the Coldlands, the Dalelands, etc.), which gave PCs more wiggle room to "ascend the ranks".
-- George Krashos
That works better, though I'm still not seeing much need for a formal hierarchy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2019 : 14:03:23
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There's also the issue of the sheer diversity of druids introduced in 3e. I'm not sure why Joe Bayou the swamp druid ought to give two tugs of a crocodile's tail about what some 'forest druid' thinks, or why a druid who worships Myrkul in his aspect as the god of autumn and decay should really care about Mielikki or Silvanus's opinions of the issue.
'Grand Druid' basically assumes that there's some kind of unifying creed, but the sheer diversity of thought between a swamp druid and a forest druid and a Malarite druid and a Chauntean druid and a Garyxian druid kind of renders that meaningless. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2019 : 15:43:36
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| I've always felt it was somehow wrong for Druids to worship gods...but that is maybe because I play AD&D where they don't have to have a deity involved at all. I've run many Forgotten Realms campaigns where they do worship gods; but it always tugs at the back of my mind that they shouldn't need them to gain their power. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2019 : 21:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've always felt it was somehow wrong for Druids to worship gods...but that is maybe because I play AD&D where they don't have to have a deity involved at all. I've run many Forgotten Realms campaigns where they do worship gods; but it always tugs at the back of my mind that they shouldn't need them to gain their power.
I, on the other hand, do not like the idea of divine spellcasters not having a deity -- so a nature deity for a druid makes perfect sense.
The issue for me is the source of the power. A deity is an intelligent entity that can hear and respond to prayers. A concept or force, like nature, lacks any controlling intelligence -- but, per the rules, can grant the same spells and abilities.
So a druid with a deity gets his abilities by asking someone much higher up the food chain for those abilities.
A druid that worships nature directly gets the same abilities just because they believe *really hard*. That just doesn't work for me.
Obviously, your mileage may vary, but I will always pick a specific deity over a nebulous idea or force. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 00:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My understanding, at least for the Realms, was that there was one Grand Druid and druidic hierarchy per geographical region (i.e. the Sword Coast North, the Moonsea North, the Coldlands, the Dalelands, etc.), which gave PCs more wiggle room to "ascend the ranks".
George has the right of it, as per FR0;
quote:
Originally posted by "The Old Grey Box," Cyclopedia of the Realms, p.40
Great and Grand Druids are singular beings, and there is only a single such individual for a five-hundred-mile area about the abode of such an individual. Each is entrusted to the organization and protection of the Circles and other druidic shrines within that domain. The precise borders of a Great Druid's domain are nebulous at best.
The "DRUIDS" entry there is worth a read, as it touches on a number of issues brought up here. Including "if Druid Prime lives in the Dales and dies of old age, how is his runner-up in the Silver Marches gonna know?
quote:
When a druid reaches sufficient level to challenge another druid of his or her position, a sign will be sent by the Power the druid worships indicating the location of the druid sought, unless the first druid knows the second druid's location already.
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AJA
YAFRP
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 09:19:33
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Each druidic order probably have their own ranks, for instance the Emerald Enclave, per the 5e DMG, have the following ranks from lowest to highest: Springwarden, Summerstrider, Autumnreaver, Winterstalker, and Master of the Wild.
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I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 14:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My understanding, at least for the Realms, was that there was one Grand Druid and druidic hierarchy per geographical region (i.e. the Sword Coast North, the Moonsea North, the Coldlands, the Dalelands, etc.), which gave PCs more wiggle room to "ascend the ranks".
George has the right of it, as per FR0;
quote:
Originally posted by "The Old Grey Box," Cyclopedia of the Realms, p.40
Great and Grand Druids are singular beings, and there is only a single such individual for a five-hundred-mile area about the abode of such an individual. Each is entrusted to the organization and protection of the Circles and other druidic shrines within that domain. The precise borders of a Great Druid's domain are nebulous at best.
The "DRUIDS" entry there is worth a read, as it touches on a number of issues brought up here. Including "if Druid Prime lives in the Dales and dies of old age, how is his runner-up in the Silver Marches gonna know?
quote:
When a druid reaches sufficient level to challenge another druid of his or her position, a sign will be sent by the Power the druid worships indicating the location of the druid sought, unless the first druid knows the second druid's location already.
To stress first off, I get that the original poster just wanted titles, but going back to the original idea of grand druids/hierarchy and tests to fight to become the next druid.
Yeah, this works as a concept for 1e where all druids were neutral and roughly the same in outlook. There would have to be changes made to this for later editions. With 3e onwards though, we have things like Malarite druids who are basically anti-thetical to Chauntean druids. That being said, I see Malarite druids as being more the hierarchical "only one can be the leader and we must fight to figure out who is top hunter" type.
Actually, I was having problems picturing the "having a grand druid hierarchy that must duke it out" in the realms at all …. OUTSIDE OF THE MOONSHAES MIND YOU, SINCE THE EARTHMOTHER HAS SO MUCH HOLD THERE AND LITTLE OF OUTSIDER NATURE GODS..... until I started picturing the gods of fury (Malar is still amongst them, correct?). I can picture Talos, Auril, Umberlee, and Malar druids duking it out and being part of a druidic grouping in an area.
There's a part of me that almost wants to say the same thing could happen in Rashemen, and since I picture the "witches" as actually being multiple different groups of witches following different but similar practices in service to Rashemen, I think it would fit with their ethos. However, in the case of someplace like Rashemen, I don't see the challenges being of the same nature as the classic ones we picture (i.e. 2 druids enter, one druid wins). I can see it being one in which a grouping of wychlaran might give the same mission to two druids (the "current" one holding the title and the challenger), and the one to accomplish the mission in service to Rashemen becomes the new holder of the title.
In other regions, I see more of a council type situation with druids from multiple religions with a similar mindset working together (so more than likely the neutral and good religions working together as a council, whereas evil druids may follow that older model). No "single ruler over the group". Though how each group builds their council might involve choosing the most powerful individual within a given religion having the vote for THAT group, whereas other council may have slots for anyone who can cast spells above X level, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Dec 2019 14:41:03 |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 21:31:58
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From Faiths and Avatars (for 2nd Edition)
"All faiths that include druids among their clergy maintain their own separate druid hierarchies. That is, each religion has its own druids, archdruids, great, and grand druids. Great and grand druids of a particular faith are singular beings, and each directs activities for druids of his or her faith within a 500-mile-radius of his or her home. Each is entrusted with the organization and protection of the circles and other druidic shrines within that domain. Interfaith relations between different druidic religions
in the Realms are fairly cordial. Conflicts between the faiths are settled through negotiation or, failing that, ritual or personal combat.
The precise borders of a great druid's domain are nebulous at best, but there are five known major regions within Faerun. The first and eldest is on the southern shores of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and includes the Gulthmere Forest and the Chondalwood. The second is located in the scattered remains of ancient Cormanthor, ranging from Cormyr to the Moonsea,
and includes the ancient territories of the Elven Court. The third is located in the North. It is based in the High Forest but includes all forests and woods in the area. The fourth includes all the Moonshaes, the fifth encompasses the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood, the forests surrounding the Great Dale. Other such regions undoubtedly exist"
From this, it sounds like there is a Grand Druid for Chauntea, one for Mielikki, one for Eldath etc
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 00:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
From Faiths and Avatars (for 2nd Edition)
"All faiths that include druids among their clergy maintain their own separate druid hierarchies. That is, each religion has its own druids, archdruids, great, and grand druids. Great and grand druids of a particular faith are singular beings, and each directs activities for druids of his or her faith within a 500-mile-radius of his or her home. Each is entrusted with the organization and protection of the circles and other druidic shrines within that domain. Interfaith relations between different druidic religions
in the Realms are fairly cordial. Conflicts between the faiths are settled through negotiation or, failing that, ritual or personal combat.
The precise borders of a great druid's domain are nebulous at best, but there are five known major regions within Faerun. The first and eldest is on the southern shores of the Sea of Fallen Stars, and includes the Gulthmere Forest and the Chondalwood. The second is located in the scattered remains of ancient Cormanthor, ranging from Cormyr to the Moonsea,
and includes the ancient territories of the Elven Court. The third is located in the North. It is based in the High Forest but includes all forests and woods in the area. The fourth includes all the Moonshaes, the fifth encompasses the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood, the forests surrounding the Great Dale. Other such regions undoubtedly exist"
From this, it sounds like there is a Grand Druid for Chauntea, one for Mielikki, one for Eldath etc
If one takes into account divisions of sects within each faith, one might find a wide variety of separate hierarchies of druid supported by a faith.
Acolyte Druid A in Region A might only answer to a single level above, while Acolyte Druid B in region B might answer to seven different ranks above, and might not formally recognize the druids of Region A within their hierarchy.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 05:09:20
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AD&D druids were strictly True Neutral and AD&D Realmslore described them worshipping different deities.
Silvanus, Eldath, Chauntea, Mielikki.
Later D&D druids could be any Neutral alignment and were described worshipping other deities.
Silvanus, Eldath, Chauntea, Mielikki. Malar, Auril, Umberlee, Talos. Elemental Lords. Foreign deities. Nature spirits. Primordials.
It always seemed unclear (to me, at least) whether each region had one "circle" (one "church") for all druids or had separate "circles" for each deity/aspect of nature druids could serve.
I imagine that druids of Eldath and druids of Talos would have vastly different ideas about how to determine which druids were ready to advance within the hierarchy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 12:16:18
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| The 3e book Unapproachable East discusses the hierarchy of the Circle of Leth, operating around the High Dale area. The head druid takes the title of Nentyarch, below them are 3 concentric rings, forming orders. The first ring is composed of 5 high druids who stand just below the Nentyarch. The second ring is made up of 9 druid masters, who are the most active searching out threats to the forest and surrounding dale. The third and most numerous ring contains the circle's initiates, low ranking druids and novices who serve as Nentyar Hunters (Specialty class, ranger type), or apprentice themselves to higher ranked Druids. |
I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 14:47:05
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Off Topic:
What is the Great OTTer Purge mentioned in your sig? |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 23:57:52
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My though is the Druid class is from a certain pow perfect if you need non-theist Healer classes for D&D. Would be some "all nature is holy, gods is images of the spirit-web of life, force of all living thing" style semi-atheist view. I'm certain it would be useful if new gamers simply dislike RPing religious, due to being hardcore atheists.
Finding the neutral evil current Archdruid trying to lock down the hierarchy, fits me. One religion, hoky nature spirit-web, lots of "gods" of different alignment, etc.
I know it's not standard, but might be useful. Sometimes. |
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The_Silversword
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 00:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Off Topic:
What is the Great OTTer Purge mentioned in your sig?
Its a long and rather pointless story, basically back in the days when Wizards of the Coast maintained their own forums, there was a section within the D&D forums called the Off-Topic Tavern used to discuss anything not D&D related, so long as it wasnt about real world religion or politics. OTTer being short for Off Topic Tavern-er, so Otters where like our mascot and many of us used otters as an avatar. Unfortunately the Tavern had a bad reputation for being a "House of Trolls", the powers that be never bothered to check who the trouble makers were so just banned everybody who posted regularly in the Tavern, so I was permanently banned from WotC forums and lost my D&D Insider subscription, even though the worst thing I had ever done was to provide a link to download PDFs that WotC themselves have provided for free download, they never deleted the downloads, only the links to the downloads. I'm still a little salty about it. |
I survived the Spellplague and all I got was this stupid sig. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 02:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've always felt it was somehow wrong for Druids to worship gods...but that is maybe because I play AD&D where they don't have to have a deity involved at all. I've run many Forgotten Realms campaigns where they do worship gods; but it always tugs at the back of my mind that they shouldn't need them to gain their power.
I, on the other hand, do not like the idea of divine spellcasters not having a deity -- so a nature deity for a druid makes perfect sense.
The issue for me is the source of the power. A deity is an intelligent entity that can hear and respond to prayers. A concept or force, like nature, lacks any controlling intelligence -- but, per the rules, can grant the same spells and abilities.
So a druid with a deity gets his abilities by asking someone much higher up the food chain for those abilities.
A druid that worships nature directly gets the same abilities just because they believe *really hard*. That just doesn't work for me.
Obviously, your mileage may vary, but I will always pick a specific deity over a nebulous idea or force.
That's why I like the concept of the Primal Spirits as a source for the powers of Nature. They aren't gods, but still are intelligent entities that can hear and grant prayers and stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Druid ranks
