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 What is Tethyr based on?
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  16:54:29  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm slowly, but surely, working my way south and came to a conclusion.

Tethyr is a version of the Holy Roman Empire of the middle ages.

I'm trying to see if this is me extrapolating or if there is some basis in fact.

If not, what are Tethyr's main themes and basis?

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
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Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  18:35:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, Ed said he didn't created anything based on places from the real world. However, Tethyr is most likely to be analog to Spain, if we are to compare it to our world.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Oct 2019 18:36:31
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Baltas
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Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2019 :  19:47:48  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In general, as Zeromaru X stated, Ed's Forgotten Realms doesn't have placed that are direct copes of real world countries.

If anything, Tethyr is probably more inspired by multiple countries from real world, more than being analogous to one real life country. You seeing similarities to the Holy Roman Empire and Zeromaru X to Spain (if I would say from various periods of Spain, Spanish Kingdoms from the time Al-Andalus, and Reconquista, if other kingdoms than Al-Andalus, like the Kingdom of Asturias), are both correct.

There is even a similarity to the Kingdom of the Franks and Frankish Empire - seeing the first king of Tethyr was Darrom Ithal, son of Clovis Ithal II (with Clovis actually uniting Tethyrian clans, and Darrom becoming king after Clovis fallen in battle), and in real life Clovis the First was the first king of the Franks to unite all of the Frankish tribes under one ruler.

Edited by - Baltas on 14 Oct 2019 20:38:09
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2019 :  00:44:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Steven Schend gave it a Spain during the time of the Moors flavor. Ed’s Tethyr was never explored in detail.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2019 :  18:52:54  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
let me confirm Tethyr's base themes just so I understand:

1. Royalty kinda stinks. Even though they start strong, they usually end badly. Even the rediscovery of Lheo is no different.
2. It is a place where land is King. It is there that the people of power derrive their influence. This is extended by the lands bountiful harvests.
3. The past is important. From the Elven and Dwarven Empires, to the Shoon, to more recent dynasties, this is a land where people remember history, or at least a healthy interpretation of it.
4. Human/Elf conformity and conflict. They have a sort of love/hate relationship in the area that often influences situations.

Did I miss anything?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  00:43:55  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure 1. is valid. Sure, they've had their dynastic issues but that's been due to the constant conniving and influencing of their old, old foe Calimshan. Despite all of their dynastic machinations, other than the relatively short Interregnum, they've maintained their monarchy and continue to do so. In that regard, they succeeded better than Calimshan whose many millennia of monarchical rule (interspersed by a few dragons, beholders and slave rebellions) is now at an end.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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shades of eternity
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288 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  02:59:52  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay then asking to take a term from 13th age, what's Tethyr's One Unique Thing?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  06:07:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

Okay then asking to take a term from 13th age, what's Tethyr's One Unique Thing?



The aspect you've already identified: it's connection to the elven race and bringing them into the fabric of what is a mostly human kingdom.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Nilus Reynard
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Canada
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Posted - 16 Oct 2019 :  10:10:00  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Late medieval to early renaissance Spain is what Tethyr reminds me of too.

Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D)
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  16:37:50  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay another question

how are Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan different or are they different aspects of Spain?

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  18:47:33  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

Okay another question

how are Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan different or are they different aspects of Spain?


Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan are obviously different in terms of their Realmsian histories, methods of government and different terrain.

If you are wondering what differences there would be in the real-world aspects you can use for inspiration in terms of architecture, cuisine and such things, I'd say that Calimshan has the most influences from North Africa and Moorish Spain and Amn is much more like the rich and powerful imperial Spain of the Renaissance, with Tethyr existing in the middle, making it ripe for inspiration from the Spanish kingdoms of the Reconquista (not to mention the purely fantastic elvish element that is important for Tethyr).

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BadLuckBugbear
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USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  19:25:24  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It appears to me there's nothing particularly Hispanic about the three countries as presented in Empires of the Sands.
Not the names, not the history, forms of government, the religions, etc. Calimshan could be interpreted as 'Moorish'but it seems less Moorish Hispania than 'extra big helping of fantasy Arabian Nights added to eclectic D&D mix.'

My impression is that 'Amn is like Spain' idea comes almost entirely from the decision to add Maztica and to make Amn the home of the 'conquistadors' and the launching point for a voyage of discovery to The True (rhymes with 'New') World.
It's part of the process of relating FR more and more to Earth, a trend which was certainly present early on (Kara-Tur).




Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 17 Oct 2019 19:36:57
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  19:31:19  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

There's nothing particularity Hispanic about the three countries as presented in Empires of the Sands.
Not the names, not the history, forms of government, the religions, etc.

Calimshan could be interpreted as 'Moorish'but it really bears no more resemblance to Moorish Hispania than to 'extra big helping of fantasy Arabian Nights added to eclectic D&D mix.'

My impression is that 'Amn is like Spain' comes almost entirely from the decision to add Maztica and to make Amn the home of the 'conquistadors' and the launching point for a voyage of discovery to The True (rhymes with 'New') World.



The architecture, as pictured and described, is reminiscent of North Africa for Calimshan and Moorish Spain for the rest.

Not to mention that 'Western' knights in a country that was ruled by 'Arabian-esque' rulers before and is still culturally influenced by such 'Arabian-esque' southern neighbors is very analogous to the medieval Iberian peninsula.

Even the clans of Tethyr evoke the history of Iberia, with the Celtiberians.

There is nothing particularly evocative of modern Hispanic identity in Amn, Tethyr or Calimshan, but that doesn't mean that the connections with historical Iberia aren't there.

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BadLuckBugbear
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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  19:40:20  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True. Those are good points, Icelander.

But one could also argue for the Balkans, Malta, Crusader States, Sicily or any other area of interface between the Islamic and Christian worlds.

Christianity and Islam are missing, which I'd call some pretty huge elements lacking.

Isn't there some Ottoman influence in later Calimshan materials? It had pashas from the get-go, of course.

Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 17 Oct 2019 19:42:33
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  19:52:11  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

True. Those are good points, Icelander.

But one could also argue for the Balkans, Malta, Crusader States, Sicily or any other area of interface between the Islamic and Christian worlds.

Christianity and Islam are missing, which I'd call some pretty huge elements lacking.

Isn't there some Ottoman influence in later Calimshan materials? It had pashas from the get-go, of course.



Sure, we could draw inspiration from other regions where macro-cultural spheres collided, but I'd argue that the much easier oceanic trade and travel around a Mediterranean ocean create a very different environment than being located next to a much more extensive ocean requiring better seagoing technology to sail.

The evolution of human cultures on the Atlantic coast has played out very differently than in the melting pot around the Mediterranean and the Inner Sea of Faerun creates a much more Mediterranean milieu than the Sea of Swords does.

I'd argue that religious differences are not actually necessary to get a clash of civilizations, as long as the cultural differences are extensive, and for an analogue to the Ottoman Empire, I'd always look to Thay.

That being said, you are of course right that some authors in the Realms have not always been careful about where they went to ransack real-world titles, names or other influences, so we've certainly got linguistic oddities like 'pashas' in Calimshan.

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BadLuckBugbear
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USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  20:02:42  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

True. Those are good points, Icelander.

But one could also argue for the Balkans, Malta, Crusader States, Sicily or any other area of interface between the Islamic and Christian worlds.

Christianity and Islam are missing, which I'd call some pretty huge elements lacking.

Isn't there some Ottoman influence in later Calimshan materials? It had pashas from the get-go, of course.



Sure, we could draw inspiration from other regions where macro-cultural spheres collided, but I'd argue that the much easier oceanic trade and travel around a Mediterranean ocean create a very different environment than being located next to a much more extensive ocean requiring better seagoing technology to sail.

The evolution of human cultures on the Atlantic coast has played out very differently than in the melting pot around the Mediterranean and the Inner Sea of Faerun creates a much more Mediterranean milieu than the Sea of Swords does.

I'd argue that religious differences are not actually necessary to get a clash of civilizations, as long as the cultural differences are extensive, and for an analogue to the Ottoman Empire, I'd always look to Thay.

That being said, you are of course right that some authors in the Realms have not always been careful about where they went to ransack real-world titles, names or other influences, so we've certainly got linguistic oddities like 'pashas' in Calimshan.



<nods>

Have you read Fernand Braudel, by the way? Methinks you'd enjoy his work.

ADDENDUM

I tend to think the cultural ransacking has been eclectic by design. The authors and designers could borrow all sort of things without, for most Faerunian regions, making something too close to Earth history and cultures.

I'm only thinking of Faerun here.

Hordelands and Kara-Tur are much more fantasy historical. No doubt what the basis for Wa is, or Tabot, or Koryo. Even the names are real names.


Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 17 Oct 2019 20:12:13
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  20:22:55  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear


<nods>

Have you read Fernand Braudel, by the way? Methinks you'd enjoy his work.

I've not read his original work, no.

For reasons ranging from linguistic incompetence to historical preferences in Icelandic academy, I've read much more by Anglosphere and Germanic authors in history and political science than I've read Frenchmen.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

ADDENDUM

I tend to think the cultural ransacking has been eclectic by design. The authors and designers could borrow all sort of things without, for most Faerunian regions, making something too close to Earth history and cultures.

I'm only thinking of Faerun here.

For Ed and some of the more careful authors who've followed him, perhaps, but as for any shared setting, I've seen all too many instances of elements being dropped in without any thought, forcing extensive rationalization later on to avoid severe damage to the setting.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

and Kara-Tur are much more fantasy historical. No doubt what the basis for Wa is, or Tabot, or Koryo. Even the names are real names.

Indeed and while this design methodology has often gotten a bad rap here, I find that I enjoy the existence of fantastic equivalents to Earth cultures, if only because no brief description of a 100% fictional culture can actually provide enough information to me as a GM.

Of necessity, we base characters, situations, cultures and all the small touches of realism on things we know. And if we don't want all cultures to be the same, we look to other real cultures than those we are born in to derive inspiration for fictional cultures.

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BadLuckBugbear
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USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2019 :  21:06:51  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Icelander,


My French is not even good enough to read Asterix, I'm afraid. Restaurant menus and street signs...

Braudel's best-known books have been translated into English, though, so they are still accessible to me. Libraries, FTW.

RE: Kara Tur, I'm not knocking it.
It is sometimes a bit jarring to me to see 'Koryo' and 'Wa' on the maps. That would be like Faerun having 'Gallia' and 'Albion' as nations.
Yet I think the Earth-analogue nations and countries make a lot of sense for Kara Tur, and I'd happily play in an OA game using the setting. K-T is well-made.
I don't know as much about the Malatra RPGA sub-setting, but it sounds cool, too.



FR was always supposed to have been connected with Earth or parallel Earths in its distant past. Thus 'Forgotten Realms.'






Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 17 Oct 2019 21:08:34
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2019 :  02:43:24  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
okay

a little clairification on point 1 I made a while back.

1st edition: Fall of house tethyr and the 10 black days of eleint
2nd edition: added tbe lion's dynasty (that included murdering of "fake heirs"), Murder of the most fair (1288), the emveolstone conspiracy

On a happy note, Lheo is returned with the queen where they essentially did the magna carta with a healthy dose of reform.

3rd edition: cemented the return of the queen and lheo if you missed the 2e suppliment.

4th edition: the children's masacre is the big thing

so the reason I did my original post was in 5e, I wanted to push one of my favorite historical years through the forgotten realms filter: 1848

- The monarchists are convinced that they need to return to a more autocratic period of power after the hundred years.
- Since it's a feudal state, you have a couple of lords controlling principalities both for and against the king.
- You have the elves fed up with the "special relationship" with the humans and have essentially decided that they needed to rule them for their own good.
- You have the dwarves, whom blessed with the thunder blessing in 3rd edition, have exploded in population in the starfire mountains, and are now of roughly of age and believe they have what it takes to restore shanatar, and will let nothing stand in their way.
- You have the Gnomes whom are sick and tired of all these stupid power games and have come out in greater numbers then believed possible and think that everybody with a title needs to be taken down for the greater good of tethyr and establish a government for the people. Halflings and a lot of peasents and townfolk have followed their lead. Essentially anarchists.

and that's before I go over the new races and figure how they fit in.

would that work before I go hog wild?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2019 :  03:15:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My only comment would be that the gnomes as anarchists angle doesn't work. The gnomes operate "under the radar", insinuating themselves into human cultures and not sticking their necks out. They go along to get along. I see the halflings of the Purple Marches as not needing gnomish leadership to agitate on issues important to them and provide the "anti-establishment" antagonist your campaign wants.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2019 :  09:39:22  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fair enough using the halflings leading the fireball throwing anarchists, but gnomes need a niche other then conforming, hiding and being boring.

So my answer is simple.

They are pranksters of fortune that go to the highest bidder. nobody is quite sure how many gnomes are in tethyr (but it's reported one of the largest populations on the east coast), but they work well together and make sure that their needs and concerns are herd by essentially pranking the side that's getting too big for it's britches. They have an underground network of tunnels (thinking gummi bear like quick tunnels) and safehouses that is across Tethyr so it's hard to pin them down.

So jovial liberatian socialists. :p

Half-elves are in large enough population that they often act as peacekeepers bettween human-elf relations and often settle in their own villages and have their own customers.

the humanoid races were driven mostly out of Tethyr and are mostly raiders from Murrandin come southward.

Open to suggestions to how Aasimar, Centaur, Dragonborn, Filbolg, Goliath, Lizardfolk, Loxo, Minotaur, Kenku, Tabaxi, Tiefling, Triton fit in, if at all.


Edit: sorry if the post appears terse. I love gnomes and feel they need a stronger presence in the realms

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Edited by - shades of eternity on 22 Oct 2019 20:41:52
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BadLuckBugbear
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USA
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Posted - 22 Oct 2019 :  23:32:35  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gnomes rock.

So do kenku. I prefer the old-fashioned non-speaking hawkmen with flight to the little corvid mimics but both versions (really two different races) are cool.


Ewan Cummins
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2019 :  18:15:44  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ha I have it.

Tethyr have turned the local population of Kenku into pages that they travel from place to place and literally relay messages word for word to act as a quick communication network.

They are the Unkindness Relay. :)

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2020 :  19:01:37  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity


So jovial liberatian socialists. :p

It's something like pacifistic imperialism?
quote:
Open to suggestions to how Aasimar, Centaur, Dragonborn, Filbolg, Goliath, Lizardfolk, Loxo, Minotaur, Kenku, Tabaxi, Tiefling, Triton fit in, if at all.

There was a mention of centaur tribe in Wealdath in Songs & Swords.
The rest don't seem numerous there, or almost anywhere (Lizardfolk in swamps, Loxoth far to South-East, etc). So, back to default (oddity unless infamous or threatening).

quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

Tethyr have turned the local population of Kenku into pages that they travel from place to place and literally relay messages word for word to act as a quick communication network.
They are the Unkindness Relay. :)

Written messages are a thing. Otherwise, looks like a decent business.
It competes with horse relay, common messenger birds and perhaps magelings, but all of those have rather obvious restrictions.
Horses are good for flat lands, but Tethyr got enough of mountains and forests to create at least some demand for flying couriers.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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keftiu
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656 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  08:39:11  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
POCGamer had a lovely article presenting it as an idealistic Moorish Spain-equivalent, pressed on two sides by Calimshan and Amn. I really enjoyed thwt.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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