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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 18:02:53
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Here's a description of the coins:
"Each of the pyramid-shaped coins of Netheril had a magical
essence incorporated into their design which made it possible to
determine real coins from counterfeits. Acting like a prism, a
three-dimensional image of a flying city above a forested landscape could be seen on the reverse of the coin. The front of the
coin had a bust rendition of Nether the Elder"
I'm having difficulty envisioning this, as a pyramid doesn't have a "reverse". If it's a four-sided pyramid, it has a bottom. Any idea what the author intended to describe here?
Also, how would people even carry these coins in bulk? They would occupy so much space.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 19:00:24
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| When I hear pyramid shaped coin, I'm thinking a triangle, not a 3-d pyramid. Either that or a coin with a flat bottom and "steps" on each side as it comes to a flat top at the end. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 19:24:28
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| That would be a triangle shaped coin then. Also, see the reference to a "prism". |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 19:46:41
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I've heard of dwarven hexagonal coins - which can stack together most efficiently, never roll away, and simply don't expose dwarves to unnecessarily dangerous curvatures.
But I've never heard of Netherese pyramidal coins (nor any Netherese Pyramid structures/monuments at all, I think). What is the source of this Realmslore? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 00:22:42
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There's no way a coin could have a reverse and not be flat. (The front is also described in the text, and no other sides -- so it has to be flat)
I'd say it was triangle-shaped, mayhaps with a crystal of some sort set into it, to hold the magic and the illusion.
And while there is a difference between pyramids and triangles, if you draw one side of a pyramid on a piece of paper, you have a triangle.
That's the only way to reconcile those two lines.
A lot of the lore in the Netheril boxed set is either problematic or simply poorly thought out. This is another good example.
Me, I'd say that it would only be reasonable to have magical coins for the most valuable coins. Maybe some coin that's worth 100 gp or more -- because all coins having this magic would be overkill, even for Netheril. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 00:57:50
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Quasimagical coinage seems like a good way to control the economy.
Valuable and uncounterfeitable within the radius of a mythallar, merely pretty curiosities anywhere else. So Netherese could use their own coinage in and between enclaves but would have to pay in some other way (spells, crafts, other currencies) when dealing with elves or dwarves.
I wouldn't be surprised if each enclave and archwizard "minted" a unique version of this coinage which clearly identified where it came from. Perhaps some were prismatic pyramids, perhaps some were not... if the shape isn't part of the (quasi)magic function then it doesn't matter what the shape is... if the shape does somehow affect the (quasi)magic (as it does in Ioun Stones) then there could be many variants with different shapes and different (quasi)magical properties. |
[/Ayrik] |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 01:00:45
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I'm agreeing with the consensus.
It probably looks more like a guitar pick then a normal coin.
But I really like the idea that it is essentially a magical hologram that makes it always looking like it's edge is out facing you and the picture differs whether it's heads or tails.
Kinda like these old toys.
https://www.brandedinthe80s.com/13059/knights-of-the-holographic-light |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 02:50:45
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One can ignore 'pyramid -shaped' or one can ignore 'front' and 'reverse.' A pyramid isn't a triangle, as others have noted. It doesn't have an obverse and reverse side like a flat coin.
I think it's cooler to ignore the latter. These coins are little translucent pyramids. With light coming in one way, an image of Nether the Elder is cast. Another way, an image of a flying city.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/13/72/1f1372bd0bb44ea482edd6b649663adb.jpg
But the holo-guitar pick is pretty sweet, too.
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 14 Oct 2019 02:59:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 04:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
One can ignore 'pyramid -shaped' or one can ignore 'front' and 'reverse.' A pyramid isn't a triangle, as others have noted. It doesn't have an obverse and reverse side like a flat coin.
I think it's cooler to ignore the latter. These coins are little translucent pyramids. With light coming in one way, an image of Nether the Elder is cast. Another way, an image of a flying city.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/13/72/1f1372bd0bb44ea482edd6b649663adb.jpg
But the holo-guitar pick is pretty sweet, too.
Cooler, but a waste of magic, effort, and resources. Sure, the Netherese were inclined to be wasteful, but magic holographic coins as currency is pushing it. Unless those pyramids were high-denomination, then there would have to be tens of thousands -- if not tens of millions! -- of them in circulation at the empire's height, and they would have had to employ teams of wizards to do nothing but make these coins, 24/10. Even making them quasimagical is still a huge drain on their resources.
It would be way more expensive to make a single coin than the value of the coin. Yes, that does happen in real life, but that's also done via automated mass production and does not require each coin to be handled and processed, one at a time, by someone who likely would have better things to do and the means to do them. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Oct 2019 04:44:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 06:20:58
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| Alchemy, transmuting gold, magically crafting gemstones, casting wishes, etc... It's hard to imagine any nonmagical currency being stable in an economy full of arcanists and archwizards. They valued magic, makes sense to me that they'd form a "high-denomination economy" for dealing in magical exchanges with a transferable currency. I suspect commoners used common coins, mere gold and silver, for all the sorts of mundane transactions any muscled tax collector could audit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 12:54:58
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It could be a polygonal metal coin, with pyramidal glass piece melded on top.
Either way, if it's not quite flat, it's likely to be a very low pyramid. Since the alternative is that everyone with coinage worth enchanting carries around a bag of caltrops and tries not to bump into things with that side. 
And yes, counterfeiting was a problem, especially when an archwizard joined the fun.
quote:
Originally a ground-based bandit hideout, the city of Doubloon was transplanted onto a flying citadel by the archwizard
Tempera of Fenwick in 2214. Tempera was impressed with the bandits’ ability to counterfeit gold coins from the various
Netherese cities, and she strived to create quasimagical devices to aid the bandits in their counterfeiting operations. Of course,
this made the enclave of Doubloon less than popular with the other cities.
By the end of the Golden Age, Doubloon was a rogue city that floated above the surface of the Netheril empire, dodging one
searching city after another. Ioulaum sent scouts out to track down the city and bring Tempera to him, but the search parties
were never successful in their task.
- Netheril, p.71
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 15:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
One can ignore 'pyramid -shaped' or one can ignore 'front' and 'reverse.' A pyramid isn't a triangle, as others have noted. It doesn't have an obverse and reverse side like a flat coin.
I think it's cooler to ignore the latter. These coins are little translucent pyramids. With light coming in one way, an image of Nether the Elder is cast. Another way, an image of a flying city.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/13/72/1f1372bd0bb44ea482edd6b649663adb.jpg
But the holo-guitar pick is pretty sweet, too.
Cooler, but a waste of magic, effort, and resources. Sure, the Netherese were inclined to be wasteful, but magic holographic coins as currency is pushing it. Unless those pyramids were high-denomination, then there would have to be tens of thousands -- if not tens of millions! -- of them in circulation at the empire's height, and they would have had to employ teams of wizards to do nothing but make these coins, 24/10. Even making them quasimagical is still a huge drain on their resources.
It would be way more expensive to make a single coin than the value of the coin. Yes, that does happen in real life, but that's also done via automated mass production and does not require each coin to be handled and processed, one at a time, by someone who likely would have better things to do and the means to do them.
Normally, I'm amenable to that kind of argument. But Arcane Age was supposed to be wild, wahoo, over-the-top, even-more-high-magic than 'modern' Realms, yes? Guys who create and live in flying cities probably don't feel too constrained by such fiddly economic factors.
Or maybe the magic in the coin can be recycled?
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Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 14 Oct 2019 15:59:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 16:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It could be a polygonal metal coin, with pyramidal glass piece melded on top.
Either way, if it's not quite flat, it's likely to be a very low pyramid. Since the alternative is that everyone with coinage worth enchanting carries around a bag of caltrops and tries not to bump into things with that side.
And yes, counterfeiting was a problem, especially when an archwizard joined the fun.
quote:
Originally a ground-based bandit hideout, the city of Doubloon was transplanted onto a flying citadel by the archwizard
Tempera of Fenwick in 2214. Tempera was impressed with the bandits’ ability to counterfeit gold coins from the various
Netherese cities, and she strived to create quasimagical devices to aid the bandits in their counterfeiting operations. Of course,
this made the enclave of Doubloon less than popular with the other cities.
By the end of the Golden Age, Doubloon was a rogue city that floated above the surface of the Netheril empire, dodging one
searching city after another. Ioulaum sent scouts out to track down the city and bring Tempera to him, but the search parties
were never successful in their task.
- Netheril, p.71
I read this passage yesterday, and I found myself wondering -- with a city of wizards at your command, and scores of allied wizards, is it really that difficult to find a city? Even if it was wrapped in illusion and non-detection, it would have had traffic to and from the city, disruption of clouds, rainfall, bird formations, etc.
It would have made far more sense for the city to have fled Netheril, maybe traveled a couple hundred miles away, rather than stick around and dodge people actively looking for it.
Of course, that's something that's bothered me about Netheril since the boxed set came out: once the cities were aloft, there was no real reason for them to all stay in the same spot. We know a handful did go further afield, but the bulk all stayed in the same general vicinity. The archwizards put all that effort into being able to take the cities anywhere, and then didn't do anything with it -- even when crops were failing and cities falling and they had every reason to relocate. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 23:51:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It could be a polygonal metal coin, with pyramidal glass piece melded on top.
Either way, if it's not quite flat, it's likely to be a very low pyramid. Since the alternative is that everyone with coinage worth enchanting carries around a bag of caltrops and tries not to bump into things with that side.
And yes, counterfeiting was a problem, especially when an archwizard joined the fun.
quote:
Originally a ground-based bandit hideout, the city of Doubloon was transplanted onto a flying citadel by the archwizard
Tempera of Fenwick in 2214. Tempera was impressed with the bandits’ ability to counterfeit gold coins from the various
Netherese cities, and she strived to create quasimagical devices to aid the bandits in their counterfeiting operations. Of course,
this made the enclave of Doubloon less than popular with the other cities.
By the end of the Golden Age, Doubloon was a rogue city that floated above the surface of the Netheril empire, dodging one
searching city after another. Ioulaum sent scouts out to track down the city and bring Tempera to him, but the search parties
were never successful in their task.
- Netheril, p.71
I read this passage yesterday, and I found myself wondering -- with a city of wizards at your command, and scores of allied wizards, is it really that difficult to find a city? Even if it was wrapped in illusion and non-detection, it would have had traffic to and from the city, disruption of clouds, rainfall, bird formations, etc.
It would have made far more sense for the city to have fled Netheril, maybe traveled a couple hundred miles away, rather than stick around and dodge people actively looking for it.
Of course, that's something that's bothered me about Netheril since the boxed set came out: once the cities were aloft, there was no real reason for them to all stay in the same spot. We know a handful did go further afield, but the bulk all stayed in the same general vicinity. The archwizards put all that effort into being able to take the cities anywhere, and then didn't do anything with it -- even when crops were failing and cities falling and they had every reason to relocate.
Yeah, I took the city of doubloon and had it used by the netherese diaspora that went down to Halruaa (such that it was probably there before the spellplague and it probably travelled back and forth). I then had it get taken by the Leirans during their exodus to Nimbral. I then had a spelljamming helm stuck on it that allowed very slow and movement but held an atmosphere and stuck it amongst the tears of Selune, where it was discovered centuries later (and it may have been the method that "elves" and humans arrived on the moon).
I agree though that netherese enclaves (like Jiksidur from Larloch) should have been found all over Toril. Especially since they DID go spelljamming, so there's no reason that they wouldn't know where the other continents were on their home planet. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 00:54:32
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That is a good nugget of lore here. I would go for triangle shaped coin (Zhentil Keep and Sembia still uses triangular silver coins) with a prism inside that produces quasi-magical illusion if looked through. It would be coin of high value like 100gp+ All such coins were minted with image of Nether the Elder if looked from the front and image of flying city that made it if looked from the back. This quasi-magical illusion made it hard to counterfeit (and cheaper than magic item) and also usable only in Netherese domain.
Wooly - I agree, also a city full of people needs a lot of support so you have to have a good way to get food, water and other bulky consumable items to the city. For this reason they might have stayed in short range of their own land where they had access to such provisions. If they flew far away they had to use a lot of magic to get it.
I have also pondered about ways for common people without magical talent to move to/from the enclave and settled on example of Raumark who had a fleet of skyships so similar devices were probably common and were used to move people and goods between surface and enclaves. Another option would be a quasi-magical platform for short range teleportation like goauld rings from Stargate...it would work only when enclave was around.
For that specific dubious city where they tampered (nomen omen) with coins it make sense to hide outside as you would not have access to such resources anyway. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 03:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Wooly - I agree, also a city full of people needs a lot of support so you have to have a good way to get food, water and other bulky consumable items to the city. For this reason they might have stayed in short range of their own land where they had access to such provisions. If they flew far away they had to use a lot of magic to get it.
Not really. There are potential farmlands all over the continent, and that's just sticking with Faerûn. Any of the Netherese enclaves could have been supported in any of the places where we currently have settlements or have had settlements in the past. Magically clear-cut some land, import some farmers and their stuff, and you're good. It's trivial compared to lopping off the top of a mountain, flipping it over, building a city on it, and then putting it in the sky. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 04:00:03
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I prefer to think of Netheril as a fallen magical empire; but the height of their power is hyped by the passing of ages. Of course I adhere to the Old Grey Box and don't use much past that point.
As for their flying cities; I decided a long time ago that if they indeed had them that the spell that helped create them must have had an "area of effect" that restricted their movement beyond a certain range...or else like Wooly said: they could have easily gone anywhere and left behind the problems of their empire and their rivals alike and founded many sub-kingdoms much further afield and come into contact (likely violent) against other realms.
But like I said, to me the "Netherese Empire" was most fiction blown out of proportion to what it actually was.
On the topic of their coins I go with the rounded tipped triangle description. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 07:53:03
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@Dalor...
The mythallar-powered flying mountaintop city of Thultanthar/Shade seems like compelling proof that the exaggerations were not so exaggerated. Especially after the Shadovar reactivated a mythallar to bring crashed and sunken Sakkors aloft again. The first flying city could've arguably had magical powers with extraplanar origins, assuming you reject or downplay the Arcane Age depiction of Netheril. But the second flying city was definitely something which had already remained (unknown and undiscovered) in the Realms for several millennia.
And then there's the Nether Scrolls, the Karsus Stone, Hellgate Keep, and various Netherese ruins/constructs which strongly suggest magics of truly impressive scope and scale (comparable to elven mythals). And plenty of old liches, notably Larloch. Presumably also a few hundred shaved mountaintops. And the question of why the Phaerimm would've created their desperate (Anauroch) Magicdrain/Lifedrain thing if nothing like Netheril threatened the survival of their species - especially since they later demonstrated their intentions of invading and ruling the Realms through magical force, it just seems unlikely they'd deliberately destroy or pollute the Realms unless absolutely necessary. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Oct 2019 08:00:19 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 12:21:34
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Ed has this to say about Netherese flying cities:
Ed's original concept of Netheril had a decline into decadence and loss of any sense of nationhood (each archwizard considering himself supreme, not beholden to his fellows, and viewing the Low Netherese as not citizens at all), but violent strife of some sort (possibly a war among archwizards, rather than the all-too-frequent feuds between just two archwizards) occurring. Otherwise, there'd have been no diaspora, but Ed's invented history postulated SOME sort of conflict to end up with scattered Netherese and crashed sky-cities.
Very few of the floating cities of Netheril were severed mountaintops. I know of only four, out of almost two score floating cities and castles (some floating constructs were little more than a single fortress).
Mountaintops are rarely “solid” rock, but rather the exposed and weathered “pointy ends” of fissured and cracked rock that’s either volcanic (and therefore of different consistencies, from the former outer cone ash to the onetime magma shaft), folded layers of rock thrust up “on end,” or even different tectonic plates. They don’t “hang together,” and thus there’s no benefit to lopping off mountaintops except impressing the observer. Most of the mountains (edge of Anauroch, in Thar, and areas now under the High Ice) that were mined or quarried or sculpted by various Netherese were consumed down to a rocky plain or plateau, and so have “left no trace” to modern mappers and explorers.
Many Netherese archwizards experimented with melting stone and sculpting it (to form honeycombed-with-passages “bases” that they then built up into soaring-spired palaces somewhat as a modern master confectioner “builds” an ornate wedding-cake), and they usually found it easiest to quarry boulders (cottage-sized and smaller) and magically bind them to other boulders of the same size, slowly building the result into a platform of about the size they wanted (constructed lying atop bare rock plateaus on the ground, not in the air).
Most Netherese cities looked like a series of palaces set among terraced gardens, with a few “viewing rooms” or griffon-steed landing ports visible around the “lower curve” edges. The creative competition turned in the direction of changing gravity, “sky” hue, and other local physical conditions by means of layers upon layers of spells.
So, Ed’s saying there are almost forty floating cities, but only TWO were “for certain” (and Ed is THE Ultimate Realms Authority) made by severing mountaintops and using those mountaintops as the city base, as opposed to shattering it into rock rubble and fashioning it into building blocks.
Also, it’s important to remember that the Netherese archwizards were extremely competitive. There’s NO WAY that Proctiv’s Move Mountain would have been a spell “shared around” at the time the enclaves were being created. So every enclave creator would have had to “reinvent the wheel” and craft an enclave in their own way.
What Ed was saying was that very few of them were made from intact severed mountaintops (don’t be misled by the inclusion of that spell in the PG). Here’s a snippet from Ed’s notes on the matter, pre-TSR-publication:
“The most popular form of enclave creation was to create a rigid flying base out of something (permanent wall of forces were popular) and bond the archwizard’s existing tower, castle, or garden-surrounded mansion onto it.”
Always remember, Ed’s lore came first, and everyone else embroiders it, sometimes without even having access to the original writings.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 12:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really. There are potential farmlands all over the continent, and that's just sticking with Faerûn. Any of the Netherese enclaves could have been supported in any of the places where we currently have settlements or have had settlements in the past. Magically clear-cut some land, import some farmers and their stuff, and you're good. It's trivial compared to lopping off the top of a mountain, flipping it over, building a city on it, and then putting it in the sky.
First you cannot just clear crops anywhere as there are people who planted them and who would starve if they loose it so they will protect it. Also crops are not waiting for you to get them but you have to do it in proper time in the year. Also I do not agree that logistics of flying city is trivial compared to building one - as logistic support is continuous process - single day is easier but keeping everyone well for a year is a lot of work. It is not only food but water, clothing, pottery, tools and lot of other stuff to keep city going. If we take Ed's premise that most enclaves were only palaces on the disk than it is a lot simpler task... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 02:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not really. There are potential farmlands all over the continent, and that's just sticking with Faerûn. Any of the Netherese enclaves could have been supported in any of the places where we currently have settlements or have had settlements in the past. Magically clear-cut some land, import some farmers and their stuff, and you're good. It's trivial compared to lopping off the top of a mountain, flipping it over, building a city on it, and then putting it in the sky.
First you cannot just clear crops anywhere as there are people who planted them and who would starve if they loose it so they will protect it. Also crops are not waiting for you to get them but you have to do it in proper time in the year. Also I do not agree that logistics of flying city is trivial compared to building one - as logistic support is continuous process - single day is easier but keeping everyone well for a year is a lot of work. It is not only food but water, clothing, pottery, tools and lot of other stuff to keep city going. If we take Ed's premise that most enclaves were only palaces on the disk than it is a lot simpler task...
There's plenty of unsettled land in the Realms, and there was even more when Netheril was strong.
Take enough food with you to sustain things until your farms are good to go, or maintain some sort of supply chain to home until you're self-sufficient.
Or you send out the farmers first. Give them enough magical support, and they can be planting fields within days of arrival. Wait a year or two, then move the city to there.
It's how pretty much every land is settled -- magic or not. Farms don't just spring up -- someone has to go there, clear the land, plant the crops, and be able to support themselves until the first harvest. If people can do it without magical support, they could certainly do it with magical support.
I know that the published Netheril and Ed's Netheril were not the same... But in the published Netheril, they had enough magic to literally reshape mountains. Prepping some farmland would be easy, compared to that.
Also, we know for a fact that some of the cities of Netheril did leave the lands of Netheril. One's rumored to be down by Tethyr, two fell into the Sea of Fallen Stars, and there's a handful of others that were elsewhere when the fall came. We also know that the Netherese had enclaves underground and underwater.
It was clearly possible for the Netherese to take their cities elsewhere, so it makes no sense that the majority of the cities didn't go anywhere. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Oct 2019 02:40:18 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 08:13:38
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| Did we ever figure out how the Silver Pyramid on Sorcerer's Isle north of Phlan came to be? Was it Netherese in origin? The wiki says it was created in -100 DR? |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 11:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's plenty of unsettled land in the Realms, and there was even more when Netheril was strong.
Take enough food with you to sustain things until your farms are good to go, or maintain some sort of supply chain to home until you're self-sufficient.
Or you send out the farmers first. Give them enough magical support, and they can be planting fields within days of arrival. Wait a year or two, then move the city to there.
It's how pretty much every land is settled -- magic or not. Farms don't just spring up -- someone has to go there, clear the land, plant the crops, and be able to support themselves until the first harvest. If people can do it without magical support, they could certainly do it with magical support.
I know that the published Netheril and Ed's Netheril were not the same... But in the published Netheril, they had enough magic to literally reshape mountains. Prepping some farmland would be easy, compared to that.
Also, we know for a fact that some of the cities of Netheril did leave the lands of Netheril. One's rumored to be down by Tethyr, two fell into the Sea of Fallen Stars, and there's a handful of others that were elsewhere when the fall came. We also know that the Netherese had enclaves underground and underwater.
It was clearly possible for the Netherese to take their cities elsewhere, so it makes no sense that the majority of the cities didn't go anywhere.
I agree and it also supports what I have said in my opinion. Enclaves were movable but you just could not take it for a ride - you have to plan it for a year or so before you move to a new place. Until then you have to stay in area that could support your enclave. That is a reason why most of them stayed in one place - out of convenience as Archwizards have much more important things to solve than supply chain for moving. Any fast trip would be a equivalent of military campaign and we know from real history how easily an army could be routed by cutting it's supplies and that it was always costly to do so.
As for the city locations - we know that Larloch had enclave in northern Narfell (Jiksidur I think) and later used rival's enclave ruins (Warlock's crypt) so these confirm that enclaves indeed moved given enough reason for it. Which brings me to another question - what would be a reason for moving enclave? Most of the things that Archwizard want to do should not require a city full of people - he could easily fly/teleport there and do what was needed. Only if he needed military support like conquering some location or he would stay for long period of time in that location than it make sense to move whole enclave there. If we assume that one Archwizard had only one enclave than you effectively loose influence on former location if you move your enclave (enclaves were part of Netheril but I do not know any lore saying they had also claim for land in Low Netheril - if you leave any other enclave could claim that spot). There is also not much evidence that Netheril was expansionistic nation so there is even less reason to move beyond borders of Netheril.
So I would suggest treating enclaves like aircraft carriers - they can move freely but most of the time stay in one place for ease of maintenance and move mostly for security reasons and to "project military power worldwide". Main difference is lack of any central authority in Netheril who would coordinate enclaves movement for strategic reasons as each Archwizard decided for his own enclave.
@Seravin - I am not sure about canon but I used it as very old tomb of some netheriese wizard in the Jergal's style. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 14:29:34
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I spent a long time trying to figure out netheril. In the end I accepted Ed's statement that only a few enclaves were large enough to house city sized settlements of a few thousand people (city sized by early medieval standards).
Then came the logistics and political of how netheril existed. The only logical way to design netheril was if the enclaves were not part of netheril at all and only traded with them as allies (and not very nice allies at that).
The enclaves live apart from low netheril as the ultimate status symbol of power, designed to attract the wealthiest and the best to that enclave (which is a sovereign nation by itself). As a result each enclave and its inhabitants likely wanted all the luxuries available to them and as a result they remained hovering above particular cities that they laid claim to so they could have quick access to the best life could offer.
Yes enclaves could move about and some could move into frontier territories but these were floating palaces of societies elite, not some riff raff commoners that were going to accept life without silk, lace, caramelized apples, honeyed pork, etc.
Then comes the shadowed age and everything changes. The phaerimm begin to disrupt life for low netheril. The enclaves ignore it at first and for a few hundred years this big desert expands in the west. Then the resource restrictions and overcrowding begins.
Some enclaves probably wanted to leave but to the east is cormanthyr, to the north is hoarfaer (white dragon nation), to the south is thauglorimorous and his dragon nation, and to the west are the phaerimm who are more than capable of taking down an enclave.
Plus the enclaves still cant live without their luxuries, and if they go into the unknown they would have to live by their wits and strength, so like most people they allow themselves to become trapped by circumstance unable to make the big leap of faith until forced (when it is too late).
In the last years, ioulaum, Karsus, and Lady Polaris seize control of low netheril and force the other enclaves to obey (as they now control the supplies and are the most powerful enclaves around). They try and organise the netherese to fight the phaerimm threat.
It fails.
Ioulaum legs it and his enclave likely tries to force it's way through the phaerimm gauntlet (flown by his apprentices). Larloch was already above Narfell and had been for a while (ruling his shadow kingdom - according to sources about the death moon orb).
The end days saw a full on phaerimm assault on high and low netheril. People fled in every direction, the enclaves tried to run, but almost all were killed by the phaerimm and their forces or by Karsus and his crashing of the weave.
At least that's as best I can figure out. Netheril is a story of how decadence and dependency upon magic can doom a civilisation just as much as wars, plagues, etc. Faith's and Avatars details how the survivors in Seventon soon starved to death when they were forced to survive without their mythallars, the enclaves would have been worse than those in Seventon (picture the capital from the Hungergames) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 21:32:27
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Yes, your thoughts mirror many of my own Gary. Netheril didn't exist in a vacuum and there were powerful neighbours around it. Moreover, it's the resource aspect that constrains them. I have enclaves entering into treaties with various Low Netheril settlements, whereby the Low provide food and other stuff and the High provides, in the main, security from other, more rapacious High enclaves. I see there being "rogue" High enclaves that seek to travel around and rape and pillage (at least at first, they are all eventually hunted down and destroyed) and the establishment of geographical boundaries where various High enclaves know they are encroaching on the "turf" of another - with inevitable consequences if they enter the other's "airspace". A complicated system, but needful to make their society function.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Pyramid-shaped netherese coinage?
