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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2019 :  01:24:50  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity


This is one of those wierd tales that you might have use of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1DcYIppSJQ

https://allaboutbison.com/bison-world-news/europe/siberia/

Canadian Wood Buffalo were transported by Plane to Siberia and there are there to replace extinct herds.

I guess what I'm asking is if they are at a rough geographic location in the realms, are their bison in the Vaast?


I shouldn't imagine there were bison in the Vast, no, although rothé are Realmsian wild herbivores that are somewhat similar and likely exist in numbers in the northern, mountainous parts of the Vast. If not for the rothé that fill an almost identical ecological role, however, and handle mountainous terrain better, no doubt bison would roam into the Vast.

The more central areas of the Vast probably resembles the great woods that covered most of historical Europe, complete with deer, great stags, wild boar, black bears and numerous smaller animals. Not to mention all the domesticated cattle, sheep, goats and fowl found around the human settlements.



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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2019 :  05:01:22  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ha I used rothé in the Stonelands for my Minotaurs, complete with Roaming Rhonda, the meanest Rothe any Low Level PC had to deal with. :)

so are they domesticated or hunted wild?

If so, do entire groups end up treating them like walking supermarkets for what they can split off them? Maybe using Paddocks, or Rothe Jumps?

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  17:33:15  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

Ha I used rothé in the Stonelands for my Minotaurs, complete with Roaming Rhonda, the meanest Rothe any Low Level PC had to deal with. :)

so are they domesticated or hunted wild?

If so, do entire groups end up treating them like walking supermarkets for what they can split off them? Maybe using Paddocks, or Rothe Jumps?


Both surface and deep rothé exist in the wild as well as being domesticated by humans, dwarves and a variety of other races.

I should expect that tribal peoples in the North survive off herds of rothé much as Sami with reindeer, so 'walking supermarket' is not far off.

There are also sources that note dragons penning herds of rothé in inaccessible mountain valleys, as a stored food source for the future.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  17:44:20  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect those rothe owned by dragons are penned in by geography in a large inaccessible valley or an island, otherwise they would quickly deplete their food supply and require someone to look after them (which might also be true)

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  19:02:26  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I suspect those rothe owned by dragons are penned in by geography in a large inaccessible valley or an island, otherwise they would quickly deplete their food supply and require someone to look after them (which might also be true)


Well, yes.

I feel that the ability of herds of deep rothé in the Underdark to subsist on moss and fungi strongly implies that surface rothé might also be able to live off a wider range of food than real-world cattle. And the rich ecology of caverns, tunnels and high mountainous terrain in the Realms suggests that nourishment, in the form of non-photosynthetic plants and fungi, is much more plentiful on Toril than Earth.

So, for humans or other species who can't necessarily eat moss or similar food sources that rothé derive nourishment from, the rothé provide a way to convert 'useless' moss into valuable protein and calories. I'm assuming that without rothé, orcs and dwarves living in the Underdark or high mountains couldn't be nearly as numerous.

Dragons, obviously, can eat almost everything, but most strongly prefer meat over moss or fungi.

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BadLuckBugbear
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USA
92 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  20:47:29  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.

Sure, that's not implausible, but there is an even larger issue.

On Earth, the reason for the 'Old World'/'New World' distinction in flora and fauna is that the continents that once formed the super-continent of Pangea have been separated for hundreds of millions of years, meaning that different plant or animal species have had millions of years to evolve into very distinct specimens.

On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia. That's about 1/10,000th of the time and it is, crucially, far too short a time to explain extensive species differentiation through normal biological evolution. Aside from deliberate genetic manipulation through selective breeding, there is really little difference between species as they existed 33,000 years ago and their descendants today.

So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.

Honestly, it's most plausible that potatoes were already being grown in various dragon-ruled realms of 33,000 years ago, both in areas that ended up in Faerun and Maztica. And, frankly, the same might apply for a lot of other crops that on Earth are 'New World' crops only, as long as the climate was favorable to them.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything. And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too.


Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live.



Does 'normal, biological evolution' have anything much to do with Toril?
Or most D&d settings?
Does it even occur at all?
Does it occur at a greatly accelerated rate?

How old is Toril?

Tens of thousands of years at least, right?
Maybe it's less than 100K years old, though. Is there any reason to assume it's been around longer than that?


Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 19 Oct 2019 20:49:14
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  22:01:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?

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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
92 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2019 :  22:23:14  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?



There's probably an official Realmslore article all about the fried monster-meats of Faerun and the daring entrepreneurs who run the restaurants that serve such delicacies.

Ewan Cummins
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  00:50:20  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

Does 'normal, biological evolution' have anything much to do with Toril?
Or most D&d settings?
Does it even occur at all?
Does it occur at a greatly accelerated rate?


It's an interesting question.

As far as I know, physics, natural laws and biological processes work the same in all worlds of the multiverse except as specifically noted. So, the such worlds as the world of the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any random layer of the Abyss have gravity, a breathable atmosphere and everything else matching Earth, unless some source specifies otherwise (or assumptions derived from textual evidence leads to a different conclusion).

I'd tend to agree that it's unlikely that life on Toril evolved naturally into what it is now, with the role of gods and the like.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

How old is Toril?

Tens of thousands of years at least, right?
Maybe it's less than 100K years old, though. Is there any reason to assume it's been around longer than that?


Essentially, we don't know if the pre-history of Toril, i.e. the untold millennia of the Progenitors under the First Sun and the great Ice Age, covers a few thousand years or billions of years.

However, the fact that Merrouroboros (the Toril equivalent of Pangea) was still one continent only 37,000 years ago certainly suggests that Toril's pre-history is much shorter than Earth's pre-history. If I had to guess, personally, I'd say that mammals (and consequently humans) had existed on Toril only in the period under the new sun and thus not long enough to evolve biologically. So I'd personally consider the vast majority of life on Toril created in their current forms, not evolved, as on Earth.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  14:39:47  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?


The roasted cockatrice recipie on p. 151 of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep certainly seems suitable for chicken and Ed Greenwood notes that when he tries out recipies, he substitutes real world materials for things like cockatrice, which I assume means he uses chicken.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2376 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  16:15:50  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia.

Does it? Separation of Evermeet (and all those island chains) and Faerun is not the same as separation of Maztica and Faerun.
It was just "pull a big island away", which already implies there was an ocean, no?
quote:
So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.

Species seem to mostly propagate via import by gods and wizards of the stuff they liked, yes.

quote:
Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live.

It may be a normal part of garden greens in some area, but it's not the same as everywhere. Which applies to all plants someone eats, since they have many natural limitations. More so without many things pushing said limitations, like large scale irrigation, greenhouses with artificial illumination to take care of seedlings before they can survive outside, etc.
And my point is, since we don't know areas where this or that crop or vegetable grows, we don't have enough to even meaningfully speculate about differences between it being grown e.g. "since before the King-Killer", "since Imaskari exodus" or "since Netherese exodus", only note there are many different possibilities.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  16:36:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?


The roasted cockatrice recipie on p. 151 of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep certainly seems suitable for chicken and Ed Greenwood notes that when he tries out recipies, he substitutes real world materials for things like cockatrice, which I assume means he uses chicken.



I bet gorgon burgers are great for cases of diarrhea. Otherwise they may cause constipation.

I do kind of wonder if the claw meat of giant scorpions might not be a delicacy (wonder if they'll regenerate claws like crabs... apparently some scorpions do in our world though its rare)…. not necessarily in the vast mind you.

I can definitely see roasted axebeak with its decorative feathers as a centerpieces in some places.

I can definitely see the hobgoblins and orcs of the vast region having some rather interesting recipes involving spitting and cooking intelligent species.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2019 :  01:26:40  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Does it? Separation of Evermeet (and all those island chains) and Faerun is not the same as separation of Maztica and Faerun.
It was just "pull a big island away", which already implies there was an ocean, no?

As per the Grand History of the Realms, the great Ice Age ended approximately -35,000 DR. At that time, Faerûn was joined with Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara as part of the super-continent Merrouroboros.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

It may be a normal part of garden greens in some area, but it's not the same as everywhere. Which applies to all plants someone eats, since they have many natural limitations. More so without many things pushing said limitations, like large scale irrigation, greenhouses with artificial illumination to take care of seedlings before they can survive outside, etc.
And my point is, since we don't know areas where this or that crop or vegetable grows, we don't have enough to even meaningfully speculate about differences between it being grown e.g. "since before the King-Killer", "since Imaskari exodus" or "since Netherese exodus", only note there are many different possibilities.


From using the search function on what Realms sourcebook I have on PDF and flipping through physical copies, searching for mentions of 'tomatoes', the balance of evidence seems to suggest that they are a common foodstuff, part of the regular fare of cheaper inns and taverns, in places as widely seperated as Waterdeep, Luiren and Ravens Bluff.

As tomatoes would most likely be much more expensive if imported to Ravens Bluff (they are cheap enough for a dive bar to offer tomato and onions on the side as a popular sauce/salad), I'm comfortable assuming tomatoes are grown near Ravens Bluff. This means that they are very likely to grow elsewhere in the Vast, at least anywhere where the climate isn't harsher.

They may not grow as easily near King's Reach, but, then again, greenhouses are Roman era technology and King's Reach is a very affluent mining community, so if there is any demand for tomatoes there, they could easily be grown locally.

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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Oct 2019 01:38:16
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker

USA
92 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2019 :  01:48:56  Show Profile Send BadLuckBugbear a Private Message  Reply with Quote
RE natural evolution, age of Abeir-Toril, etc.

I figure evolutionary changes do happen but the timescale only allows for micro-evolution. Many types of beings were created ( meaning created swiftly, rather than creation through slow evolutionary processes) by the gods or Creator Races, and within those types, adaptations and variations related to the environment have occurred. The Creator Races created new types and races from old ur-types (that much is canon, yes?).
My guess is that there have been three ages of creation, or great waves of overlapping generative activity: Primordials, early deities, and then Creator Races. I imagine the planet and the whole crystal sphere and solar system is maybe 100K years old.

But of course this is all speculative. And it ought to remain so as far as canon goes, I think. Creation and the deepest part of prehistory are mysteries best left up to DMs, if they come up at all outside the in-game mythologies of various cultures and the speculations or sages.

Ewan Cummins

Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 21 Oct 2019 02:03:55
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2019 :  17:15:14  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

RE natural evolution, age of Abeir-Toril, etc.

I figure evolutionary changes do happen but the timescale only allows for micro-evolution. Many types of beings were created ( meaning created swiftly, rather than creation through slow evolutionary processes) by the gods or Creator Races, and within those types, adaptations and variations related to the environment have occurred. The Creator Races created new types and races from old ur-types (that much is canon, yes?).

Yes, that last is canon and I agree with what conclusions you draw.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

My guess is that there have been three ages of creation, or great waves of overlapping generative activity: Primordials, early deities, and then Creator Races. I imagine the planet and the whole crystal sphere and solar system is maybe 100K years old.

I don't know about this whole Primordial thing, it seems like a typical 4e addition (ill-thought out and hard to reconcile with existing canon).

I prefer to think that Selune and Shar are the oldest beings in existence, with Mystryl following closely behind. Anything else, deity or Primordial, comes later. And I definitely consider Selune and Shar deities, not anything else.

As for the age of the Realms, I really don't have much of an idea. It's entirely possible for the time of Selune and Shar to have been billions of years (or to have existed out of time) and the world under the Fist Sun might have existed for a lot longer than the current Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear

But of course this is all speculative. And it ought to remain so as far as canon goes, I think. Creation and the deepest part of prehistory are mysteries best left up to DMs, if they come up at all outside the in-game mythologies of various cultures and the speculations or sages.

Agreed.

---

We... we were talking about crops, foodstuffs and cuisine in the Vast?

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  02:22:33  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I bet gorgon burgers are great for cases of diarrhea. Otherwise they may cause constipation.

I do kind of wonder if the claw meat of giant scorpions might not be a delicacy (wonder if they'll regenerate claws like crabs... apparently some scorpions do in our world though its rare)…. not necessarily in the vast mind you.

Many monsters are toxic or otherwise dangerous to eat, but in general, the more they resemble giant versions of ordinary animals, the more likely they are to be edible.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I can definitely see roasted axebeak with its decorative feathers as a centerpieces in some places.

I'm sure axebeaks and other massive, flightless birds can be found somewhere on Toril, but is there anything canonical that suggests they are found in the Heartlands or anywhere around the Sea of Fallen Stars?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I can definitely see the hobgoblins and orcs of the vast region having some rather interesting recipes involving spitting and cooking intelligent species.


From Ed Greenwood's replies and passages in Elminster's Ecologies, orcs and hobgoblins generally prefer wild game or livestock to intelligent species. Eating sapients is something some tribes do, of course, and in times of famine most goblinoids and orcs would probably eat nearly anything, but those who eat people by choice seem to be in a minority. Goblins seem more likely to eat sapient flesh than orcs, from what I recall in various Realms sources.

Of course, there are probably orc shamans who preach unending warfare and the eating of slain foes for religious reasons, but these are not exactly typical orcs.

Certainly, the way I present gray orcs from the Vast in my campaign, humans are not a regular feature of their diet. However, the ceremonial eating of a formidable foe slain in battle or an honoured forefather is very much a part of their culture, but that is done for cultural and religious reasons, in order to absorb the power of the person eaten.

Indiscriminate eating of sapient flesh is considered vulgar by my Vastar orcs, the mark of primitive goblinkin or stupid ogres.

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Edited by - Icelander on 31 Oct 2019 02:28:30
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  04:15:51  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have the hobgoblins of the Giantspires eating sapients.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  08:22:41  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I have the hobgoblins of the Giantspires eating sapients.

-- George Krashos


Ceremonially or as a matter of culinary preference?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  10:52:30  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2019 :  13:10:29  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yes.

-- George Krashos


I'd ask if they eat them roasted or raw, but I suspect I'd receive the same answer.

I have my southern Vast (from the Earthfast Mountains) orcs eating the heart of defeated foes whose courage they admire. Whether or not that is a custom shared by orcs in the central or northern Vast (Earthspurs or the lowlands) hasn't come up.

Of course, it's canonical that Grimmerfang spit-roasted and ate the last of his challengers for the title of Overking of Vastar, which is why I assigned ritual cannibalism to Vastar orc culture. It's also a lot more interesting if the orcs have cultural and ritualistic reasons for wanting to eat sapient meat, meaning that even sympathetic orcish characters might engage in the practice and defend it to outsiders.

My gray orcs in the Vast are meant to have a much more complex civilization than typical mountain orcs, as even if Vastar is long fallen, they still retain aspects of that cultural heritage. They are warlike, worship harsh gods and have the values of raiders and conquerors, but they are not merely culturally impoverished savages.

The gray orcs the PCs travel with cook and appear to have a robust cuisine of their own, most of which is perfectly palatable to humans living in the same general area, with most of the same incredients plentiful. Granted, the orcs can eat all sorts of things humans can't (or won't), but I imagine that the orcs prefer high-quality foodstuffs over scraps and various sources of nutrients found in caverns, even if the latter are eaten in lean times.

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Edited by - Icelander on 31 Oct 2019 13:15:22
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