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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2019 : 20:49:26
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So, as the new Neverwinter Nights game become re-released with other systems coming up I started playing the old version on my computer. Instantly I gravitated to the Paladin / Champion of Torm options which I thought were always really cool, then I realized that it was a gutted Prestige Class in 3.5 (aka Divine Champion) put out in the FRCS and PGtF books. I think that's sorta sad SOOOoo... I redid the version for Torm specifically. It basically is an adaptation from the NvN version but with some spellcasting and 10 level progression. Let me know what you think!
The best way to incorporate this thematically into Realms games is to assume that this is the "original" version of the class and when other Deities saw these Champions, they gave boons to their own warriors (a la Divine Champions of their faith, but it's not as powerful as the original).
CHAMPION OF TORM
Champions of Torm are mighty warriors who dedicate themselves to the Righteous Fury’s cause, defending holy ground, destroying enemies of the church, and slaying mythical beasts and clerics of opposing faiths.
Requirements
Alignment: Must be lawful good
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks
Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st level divine spells
Patron Deity: A champion of Torm must choose Torm as his patron deity
Hit Die: d10
The Champion of Torm
Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special Spellcasting
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Bonus Domain, lay on hands —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat, sacred defense +1 +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Smite infidel 1/day +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat, sacred defense +2 —
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Divine wrath 1/day +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat, sacred defense +3 +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Smite infidel 2/day —
8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat, sacred defense +4 +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Divine wrath 2/day +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Smite infidel 3/day —
Class Skills
The Champion of Torm’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Champion of Torm.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Champions of Torm are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but not with any armor or shields. Armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to her Climb and Jump skills, and double the normal armor check penalty apples to Swim checks.
Bonus domain
Upon adopting the champion of Torm class, she gains access to one of the following domains of Torm: Good, Healing, Law, Pride, Protection, Strength, and Zeal. The Champion of Torm gains the granted power associated with the domain and can choose the spells in that domain as her daily domain spells. For characters who do not have access to domain spells, they may add the spells in the chosen domain to their spellcasting class for which they’ve chosen when selecting this prestige class.
Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 1st level, a champion of Torm can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her champion of Torm level x her Charisma bonus. She may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
Alternatively, a champion of Torm can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The champion of Torm decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
If the champion of Torm has the lay on hands ability from another source (such as paladin levels), her daily uses of the ability from that source stack to determine total level.
Bonus Feat
At 2nd level and at every even level until 10th, the champion of Torm may select a bonus feat from the following list: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Great Cleave, Knock-Down S&F, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Turning, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization*. You must meet any prerequisites for a feat in order to select it.
*Weapon Specialization may be selected without having the prerequisite 4 levels of Fighter.
Sacred Defense (Ex)
At 2nd level, the champion of Torm gains a +1 bonus on saving throws against divine spells, as well as the spell-like and supernatural abilities of outsiders. When you reach 4th level, and each even level after until 10th, the bonus increases by 1 to a total of +4 at 8th level.
Spellcasting
At each level indicated on the Champion of Torm table, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit that class would have gained. If you have more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a champion of Torm, you must decide which class gains each level for the purposes of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.
Smite Infidel (Su)
Once per day, a champion of Torm of at least 3rd level may attempt to smite a creature that has a different patron deity. Creatures of Intelligence 2 or less do not have patron deities and are not subject to these attacks, but creatures of Intelligence 3 or higher who do not choose patron deities are. The champion of Torm adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to the attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per champion of Torm level. If a champion of Torm accidentally smites a creature that is not of an opposing alignment or deity, the smite has no effect but is still used up for that day. You gain a second use of this feature at 7th level and a third use of this ability at 10th level.
If the champion of Torm has a smite ability from another source (such as cleric or paladin levels), the levels from your champion of Torm stack with those of the other class to determine damage.
Divine Wrath (Su)
Once per day, a 5th-level champion of Torm can channel a portion of her patron deity's power to greatly enhance her own battle prowess. You gain damage reduction 5/— and a +3 bonus on attack rolls, damage, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round). These modifiers are sacred bonuses.
You gain a second use of this ability at 9th level.
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Edited by - Diffan on 24 Aug 2019 06:42:47
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2019 : 22:38:46
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Uhm ... I don't know about this one, feels too powerful to me.
The original concept of the Divine Champion I think was to give all deities the possibility to have un/holy warriors fighting for them beside LG paladins or weird Blackguards (which was not a great Prestige Class for your run of the mill evil fighter/barbarian) and I think it succeeded pretty well in that, making some kinds of characters viable.
Of course it kind of superimposed without merging too well with the paladin concept but I think that was fully intended and, at the time of it appearing, it was not meant as a Prestige Class for paladins.
Now, let's look at what you have got.
Big no-nos:
1) 4+Int skill points ... sorry mate but I'm very jealous of rogues, bards and other skill intensive classes, so giving free skill points to everyone is not appealing to me;
2) High ref save, I don't see the reason for this and it's pretty powerful given that there are a boatload of effects with a ref save;
Small no-nos:
In general it's just a paladin on steroids, with stunted turn undead (do paladins even care beside the number of uses?) and slightly stunted spell progression (kind of meh anyway) ... and oh you lose the all powerful remove disease X/week ...
The chance to smite CN or LN followers of evil deities (think Cyric or Bane for example) is by itself a pretty big improvement over the common paladin smite working only on strictly evil critters.
Throw in the bonus to saving throws, divine wrath, domain spells and powers, extra fighter feats and the fact that a straight 17 Paladin smites 4/day while a Pal 7 / ChampTorm 10 would smite 5/day and it's really too much of a no-brainer to be a Tormite paladin and take this prestige class.
Now, I agree that prestige classes are meant to be more powerful than standard classes but there should be some kind of cost associated with all the goodies this presitge class gives you, like some crappy or often overlooked feat (like the Pious Templar requiring the True Believer feat) or heavy roleplaying requirements (like: you have to go to temple X or Y and perform duties for the Holy Order of Z or stuff like that) or both.
... but still revise/remove the skill points and ref save ... it's a pet peeve of mine ... sorry ...
PS I think in your table at level 6 you meant "sacred defense +3" and not "... +2" |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2019 : 06:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Uhm ... I don't know about this one, feels too powerful to me.
The original concept of the Divine Champion I think was to give all deities the possibility to have un/holy warriors fighting for them beside LG paladins or weird Blackguards (which was not a great Prestige Class for your run of the mill evil fighter/barbarian) and I think it succeeded pretty well in that, making some kinds of characters viable.
True, this is sort of an "all deities have a divine warrior guy in the ranks." it's also terribly generic too. This is why I noted in the entry that Champions of Torm were the first or Original version - patron God of Paladins having faithful doing paladin-stuff. Other deities saw this and said "hey....wait a minute..." then copied it. It's still not as good as the original, which also has extra requirements that must be met.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Of course it kind of superimposed without merging too well with the paladin concept but I think that was fully intended and, at the time of it appearing, it was not meant as a Prestige Class for paladins.
Paladins can certainly take Divine Champion levels - there's nothing in the prerequisites that really hamper them and hey, if you want to chug 7 levels through a tier-5 class there should be rewards for doing so. However, the main problem is that 1) Torm has no real dedicated Prestige Classes in 3.5 AND 2) Paladins at-large have a really really hard time finding good Prestige Classes to begin with. At most, there's about 5 in the entirety of 3/3.5's system that actually makes Paladins better (Fist of Raziel, Gray Guard, Knight of the Raven, Pious Templar, and Triadic Knight). Everything else just doesn't do much for them in any good capacity - hence why the usual method is to run far and fast away from the Paladin after 4 levels (5 if you really want a mount or Charging Smite). I find this to be very problematic with the system as a whole and the class in particular.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Now, let's look at what you have got.
Big no-nos:
1) 4+Int skill points ... sorry mate but I'm very jealous of rogues, bards and other skill intensive classes, so giving free skill points to everyone is not appealing to me;
Conversely, the severe lack of points per level - based on Intelligence no less - is one of the single biggest pet peeves of mine in the entire edition. Rogues and Bards get 8 and 6 per day. Hell most of the later base classes got 4+Int because the designers knew that spreading out so very few ranks would most likely mean you're either pretty terrible across the board OR you're HYPER-focused in 2, maybe 3 skills at best. Out of a dozen. I made it 4 because Paladins and warrior-guys in general desperately need skill ranks and 4 doesn't seem like it would ever come close to stepping on anyone's toes. I mean the Barbarian gets 4 a level.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
2) High ref save, I don't see the reason for this and it's pretty powerful given that there are a boatload of effects with a ref save;
I made this high because it's the saves the class gets in the Game and because reflex saves often means saving from HP-based damage of spells and effects. I feel warriors simply need to be good at avoiding stuff that hurts them physically and that'd be one of those sources.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Small no-nos:
In general it's just a paladin on steroids, with stunted turn undead (do paladins even care beside the number of uses?) and slightly stunted spell progression (kind of meh anyway) ... and oh you lose the all powerful remove disease X/week ...
You lose a lot more than that, if we're looking at the class side-by-side that is. No at-will detection, no grace or health or turning or special mount. Now granted most people go into paladin (mechanically speaking) for 3 things - Divine Grace, more Turn Undead attempts, and maybe Divine Health. That's it.
Smite is a terrible mechanic thru and thru (1-shot bonus to attack and damage, lose out if you miss OR if the enemy isn't evil). Lay on Hands (3.5's version) heals at an abysmally small rate. No one can use the Special Mount ability in any enclosed area except Halfling Paladins - basically what this Prestige Class is handing out. The spellcasting, and Paladins already get such a very limited and small number of slots already, going 6/10 isn't making anyone more powerful. Even a Fighter or Knight 4/Cleric 4 is dropping over 8 levels of casting!
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The chance to smite CN or LN followers of evil deities (think Cyric or Bane for example) is by itself a pretty big improvement over the common paladin smite working only on strictly evil critters.
Yeah, it's a buff over what they get because - again - smite is really that bad. The only way I could get smite better is to port over Pathfinder's version where it lasts against a single target and you get it multiple rounds + an AC bonus (but then it wouldn't be 3.5 then).
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Throw in the bonus to saving throws, divine wrath, domain spells and powers, extra fighter feats and the fact that a straight 17 Paladin smites 4/day while a Pal 7 / ChampTorm 10 would smite 5/day and it's really too much of a no-brainer to be a Tormite paladin and take this prestige class.
Well yes, a Prestige Class of the patron deity of Paladins would be a good idea for Paladins to grab. No different than a wizard 17 vs. a Wizard 13/Archmage 4 or an evil rogue going Rogue 5/assassin 10 vs. Rogue 15. Look at a better Prestige Class for Paladins than my Champion of Torm (Fist of Raziel - full BAB, 1 good save, 2+ Int skill; constant Magic Circle against evil; Smite Evil 5/day (good-aligned, confirming, holy, fiendsmite, chain effects); 9/10 spellcasting; holy and sactified martial strikes; sunder evil items). Funny thing is, a Cleric/Fighter can go this route too, get 9/10 casting and be far more effective.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Now, I agree that prestige classes are meant to be more powerful than standard classes but there should be some kind of cost associated with all the goodies this presitge class gives you, like some crappy or often overlooked feat (like the Pious Templar requiring the True Believer feat) or heavy roleplaying requirements (like: you have to go to temple X or Y and perform duties for the Holy Order of Z or stuff like that) or both.
Slogging 7 levels through what will mostly likely be a tier 4 or 5 class to get that +7 BAB is pretty darn painful in and of itself. You still have to maintain a Lawful Good alignment - Fighter/Clerics now forced under this mantle the Paladin has already been dealing with. You have to take Weapon Focus which, is already a pretty 'meh' feat at best, because feats should have an impact on your character and WF does't really do after 4th level.
Not only that but I've found most 'good' prestige classes don't bother with in-game quest requirements. Never does a Wizard have to undertake such in-game paths to maintain their arcane spells or even Clerics don't have to travel and spread the good word. A Morninglord of Lathander simply just goes about and melts undead without a care as examples.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
... but still revise/remove the skill points and ref save ... it's a pet peeve of mine ... sorry ...
I could see dropping Reflex saves. Skills on the other hand - by far my biggest peeve of the entire system - would have to stay at 4.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
PS I think in your table at level 6 you meant "sacred defense +3" and not "... +2"
Thank you, I changed it  |
Edited by - Diffan on 24 Aug 2019 06:45:45 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2019 : 22:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Paladins can certainly take Divine Champion levels - there's nothing in the prerequisites that really hamper them and hey, if you want to chug 7 levels through a tier-5 class there should be rewards for doing so. However, the main problem is that 1) Torm has no real dedicated Prestige Classes in 3.5 AND 2) Paladins at-large have a really really hard time finding good Prestige Classes to begin with. At most, there's about 5 in the entirety of 3/3.5's system that actually makes Paladins better (Fist of Raziel, Gray Guard, Knight of the Raven, Pious Templar, and Triadic Knight). Everything else just doesn't do much for them in any good capacity - hence why the usual method is to run far and fast away from the Paladin after 4 levels (5 if you really want a mount or Charging Smite). I find this to be very problematic with the system as a whole and the class in particular.
Yeah I understand the problem, what I meant was exactly that the prestige class was not as appealing to a paladin as it was to a fighter with the appropriate alignment. I know paladins have fewer options because they're already more specialised than fighters or barbarians but there are some things you can do to keep your role of "holy slayer of evil" without becoming a slayer of everything. Knight of the Chalice it's quite ok if you want to specialise in fiendslaying, even Hunter of the Dead can have it's merits, it all depends on what you want your character to do. If the point is just getting better at killing anything than maybe paladin was not a good choice in the first place.
As an aside I hate 3/3.5 proliferation of spell lists for random classes and appreciate your choiche to give "+1 existing", personally I think that should have been the concept from the start, with prestige classes (like Pious Templar, Knight of the Chalice or Harper Agent) expanding spell lists and giving access to paladin/ranger/bard spells to characters that entered the prestige class without any previous spellcasting capacity.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Conversely, the severe lack of points per level - based on Intelligence no less - is one of the single biggest pet peeves of mine in the entire edition. Rogues and Bards get 8 and 6 per day. Hell most of the later base classes got 4+Int because the designers knew that spreading out so very few ranks would most likely mean you're either pretty terrible across the board OR you're HYPER-focused in 2, maybe 3 skills at best. Out of a dozen. I made it 4 because Paladins and warrior-guys in general desperately need skill ranks and 4 doesn't seem like it would ever come close to stepping on anyone's toes. I mean the Barbarian gets 4 a level.
Well I fear we will have to agree to disagree here, I very much think the skill points being a limiting factor is an essential part of the system.
But then they botched it with skill proliferation and that's something I think ... Pathfinder? And maybe 4E? (sorry don't know these other systems too well so I might be wrong) kind of fixed: I truly believe the "specialist" classes should outshine everyone else in general utility/versatility outside of the battlefield and if you want your fighter to be a good sage you have to work for it but I think Listen&Spot, Hide&MoveSilently and all the athletic kind of skills could be safely lumped together without problems to the system.
Barbarians get 4 points 'cause they're supposed to be intimidating and able to climb and jump and swim, druids getting 4 I don't particularly mind but you could downsize them to the other spellcasting classes level of 2, monks ... f#@k them I hate monks.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I made this high because it's the saves the class gets in the Game and because reflex saves often means saving from HP-based damage of spells and effects. I feel warriors simply need to be good at avoiding stuff that hurts them physically and that'd be one of those sources.
Yeah I understand the reasoning, but I still don't agree with it. Nobody would want to get hit by a fireball or a dragon's breath but tanky classes going around in heavier armor usually have an hp buffer and are not trained at dodging and tumbling the way rogues et similia do. Paladins already have the added bonus of pumping Charisma into all their save so they already have far better chances than fighters/barbarians at avoiding damage, with the same hp pool of the former and better armor possibilities than the latter so I don't think they need anything more.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
You lose a lot more than that, if we're looking at the class side-by-side that is. No at-will detection, no grace or health or turning or special mount. Now granted most people go into paladin (mechanically speaking) for 3 things - Divine Grace, more Turn Undead attempts, and maybe Divine Health. That's it.
Smite is a terrible mechanic thru and thru (1-shot bonus to attack and damage, lose out if you miss OR if the enemy isn't evil). Lay on Hands (3.5's version) heals at an abysmally small rate. No one can use the Special Mount ability in any enclosed area except Halfling Paladins - basically what this Prestige Class is handing out. The spellcasting, and Paladins already get such a very limited and small number of slots already, going 6/10 isn't making anyone more powerful. Even a Fighter or Knight 4/Cleric 4 is dropping over 8 levels of casting!
I don't understand the comparison "side-by-side". Being this a prestige class I was comparing a Pal 17 with a Pal 7 / ChampTorm 10 and the latter is clearly superior (having already taken all the immunities and Cha bonus to saves), so much so that it's a no brainer to pick it up over pure paladin or other specialised choices (if you get more martial feats and divine wrath then the appeal of specialising into a fiend or undead killer quickly fades).
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well yes, a Prestige Class of the patron deity of Paladins would be a good idea for Paladins to grab. No different than a wizard 17 vs. a Wizard 13/Archmage 4 or an evil rogue going Rogue 5/assassin 10 vs. Rogue 15.
C'mon now, Archmage requires a skill focus feat (and two spell foci which not all wizards might want to have) and requires the sacrifice of spell slots. The evil rogue (beside being forced into being evil which depending on the campaign might or might not be an hassle) is not getting improved evasion or the other rogue specials. Still Archmage and Assassin are pretty solid and standard choices but they require giving up something.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Look at a better Prestige Class for Paladins than my Champion of Torm (Fist of Raziel - full BAB, 1 good save, 2+ Int skill; constant Magic Circle against evil; Smite Evil 5/day (good-aligned, confirming, holy, fiendsmite, chain effects); 9/10 spellcasting; holy and sactified martial strikes; sunder evil items).
See, here I don't think Fist of Raziel is strictly better, because in 3.5E a lot of power is in the feats and, as you said, smite is not the best class feature ever, so improvements to smite pale in comparison to access to more feats in my view. The constant Magic Circle is much stronger than the offensive buffs the Fist gets in my opinion but I think it's a matter of play styles.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Slogging 7 levels through what will mostly likely be a tier 4 or 5 class to get that +7 BAB is pretty darn painful in and of itself. You still have to maintain a Lawful Good alignment - Fighter/Clerics now forced under this mantle the Paladin has already been dealing with. You have to take Weapon Focus which, is already a pretty 'meh' feat at best, because feats should have an impact on your character and WF does't really do after 4th level.
Not only that but I've found most 'good' prestige classes don't bother with in-game quest requirements. Never does a Wizard have to undertake such in-game paths to maintain their arcane spells or even Clerics don't have to travel and spread the good word. A Morninglord of Lathander simply just goes about and melts undead without a care as examples.
Ah yes, but all of this is on the DM. Does anyone ever check if your rogue assassin really killed someone only for fun? I do, and so do the lawkeepers of where the murder occurred.
I always laughed at the online forum mentions of "Triple Betrayers of Mystra" or other ridiculous combinations that required jumping through infinite hoops and didn't get concerned for even half an instant on how said character got to the final brokeness.
So again, it's a matter of playstyle.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I could see dropping Reflex saves. Skills on the other hand - by far my biggest peeve of the entire system - would have to stay at 4.
I don't want to sound too negative, it's just that I tried my hand at creating some prestige classes to fit some holes in my games and I've embarassingly stumbled into overpoweredness in my eagerness to "give justice" to some character build.
I think this Champion of Torm fits the flavour of the Loyal Fury very much, it's just that I feel it's very powerful compared to standard 3.5 class options but if you think it would fit in your games as is then no problem. |
Edited by - Demzer on 25 Aug 2019 08:30:31 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2019 : 14:08:20
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To keep the threat from becoming a huge quoted mess, I'll just reply with bullets, lol. Hope that's cool.
•RE: Divine Champ's appeal and spells.
Yea, the original Divine Champion is pretty lack-luster IMO. It doesn't really give paladins any incentive (no spell progression, slightly better smite, more Lay on Hands but also restricted, and the sacred bonus only comes in occasionally) besides "hey, look divine PrC that you can grab." Barbarians and Fighters could get in on some of the Pally-action as it gave them some features that originally couldn't get.
But that was sort of my problem with the PrC to begin with, especially after playing Neverwinter Nights. Like, hey cool a prestige class FOR paladins in the game FOR one of my favorite deities!! Why is this not a 3.0/3.5 thing? And I saw that it was, a neutered one. That's why I beefed this one up more, it's supposed to be THE original Champion, to make Torm's knights even better at their schtick.
•RE: Skills and Skill Points
Fighters, Knights, Paladins, some other base classes at 2+Int usually have between 10 and 12 skills to choose from, and that's if they stick to One Crafting and One Profession. In a game that prizes skills as a sort of in/out of game way to connect to the world, it's pitifully limited. Fighters, for example, will undoubtedly put those few precious skill ranks into Climb, Intimidate, and probably Jump and pray they don't get near water or find a magical solution to drowning. That's it. MOST of them will never put ranks into craft (why bother when you just have GP?) or Profession (do they even get this?) and you can completely forget about cross-classing unless there's a REALLY REALLY good reason to for a good feat or PrC entry. I find that very limiting, so much that it makes almost ALL Fighters (and other 2+Int skill classes) exceptionally cookie-cutter by design.
The Paladin has it worse because he can cast spell, so he can't exactly slouch on Concentration, he has very few ways of interacting (skill wise) outside of Diplomacy, and he can sense the truth sometimes (Sense Motive), and he wants at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) for that +2 to Turning. Ride? Forget it. Profession and Craft? Forget it. The Paladin is already stat-starved (ie. MAD) that Intelligence is the usually the lowest stat and if he dips below 10, that's more limitation for his skill choices.
I'm not saying they need to have max ranks in 5 or 6 or 8 of their 12 total skills, but maybe 1/3 of them? I don't see that as bad or asking for too much. And like I said, later classes post 2005 that WotC put out definitely saw an uptick in Skill points per level (ie. Look at the Tome of Battle Classes).
As to other system, I do like Pathfinder's converging of certain skills *Stealth = move silently + Hide* for example. It definitely made it less painful for some classes. In 4th Edition, they took out a lot of the skills people weren't using during combat "Profession, Craft, Perform* and then gave you a one-time bonus if you chose to be Proficient with that skill. It automatically went up 1/2 level in progression. So your Fighter who grabbed Athletics, Intimidate, and Streetwise could be pretty good at obstacles, scare people, and had a decent chance of finding his way around urban incidents. 5th Edition took a similar route too.
• RE: Reflex Saves
I changed them to poor, like they are for the Divine Champion class.
• RE: Class/PrC Comparisons
I feel the entire reason 3.5 made Prestige Classes was to 1) make them better straight-up from base classes and 2) to add in diversity that we saw in the old "kits" of AD&D 2e and before. Specialty Priests were now PrC. Specialty style Fighters (a la Cavalier, now a PrC). Bladesingers - another Prestige Class (and two bads ones at that). Almost ALL of these options are better at doing something - in many cases everything - than the Base Class. Very few classes were designed to go from 1-20 because of their full features (Druid being one, Dread Necromancer being another, possibly the Factotum being a third). The rest, you're far more likely to find better options, more versatility, and power by choosing a Prestige Class.
Now as this applies to the Paladin, remember that the class is barely holding onto that Tier-5 level. People were dipping out of the class anyway by level 4 so there was never an incentive to say in there past that (save Role-play Reasons...maybe). the champion of Torm at least provides some to say in til at least 7 and then, maybe 3 more after you hit level 17. Besides a Paladin 20 will have better spells and Remove Disease multiple times per week where the Champ wont. Not to mention an extremely powerful steed (assuming you went that route).
As for the Archmage, Skill Focus still helps the Wizard (they got them low 2+Int to skills anyways) so it's not a total waste and the spell slots are easily missed when you basically get free Metamagic effects at that cost. In the even of having to choose between straight Wizard 20 or Wizard 15/Archmage 5...I'm going to assume that most people are choose the latter. I mean, c'mon Arcane Reach for touch spells up to 30-ft? Spell Turning with every Dispel Magic used to Counterspell? Spell shaping means you never have to worry about throwing down a massive AoE spell with your allies there because *poof* they're immune.
Yea, these cost permanent spell slots but you're getting free meta-magic effects for it. The paladin doesn't give up as much, but what is he getting? A slightly less crappy Smite and DR a +3 bonus a few rounds a day plus some bonus feats. Again, having to slog through 7 levels of a terrible tier-5 class is already painful enough of a cost.
• RE: Fist of Raziel
The feats are from a very selected list. Namely Fighter feats, which isn't winning any prizes for being 'good'. Yea Smite is a poor feature, but it gets better when you can chain one effect into multiple targets. Can you make smite better, a la Feats (Shock Trooper, Divine Might) and spells like Rhino's Rush - absolutely. Sill not a guarantee they'll hit OR if the target is even evil OR against your deity. I always felt the Fist's best feature was the 9/10 spellcasting, something you don't see all the time as it's usually 5/10 at best. That's why I went 6/10 here as it's slightly better but not too good.
• RE: Keeping it real on the Prerequisites of PrCs.
When I do 3.5, often limited now, I even keep track of spell components. So if we jump into a 6th level game and there's an evil Rogue 5/Assassin 1 while he didn't actually do it in-game, I might have them describe who it was, where it happened, and the outcome. This will give me info that will allow me to make a good plot later where maybe the person he killed wants revenge, or maybe the authorities caught on to who it was or maybe it was secretly a Harper and now they're after him. Stuff like that. Sure it's a playstyle but it's also in the rules too.
• Closing Thoughts
I appreciate the honest and good feedback. We're shaped by our experiences and mine with 3.5 have been....well mixed at best. I've been in parties where they're taking on ECLs 5 levels higher than where we are and two casters simply mow down the competition. I've seen clerics find ways to make their spells nigh-permanent with official rules and no cheating. Most of the broken shenanigans I've seen often come from casters and it usually rears it's head about 8th level or so.
Can martials be crazy? Oh sure, Frenzied Berserkers are stuff of nightmares, for fellow players and DM's alike. I can make a Paladin's smite do ridiculous damage IF built properly. The problem is, they're one-trick ponies and easily countered. Casters, OTOH, without having every battle turn into Anti-Magic Field central turns into rocket tag. It's unfortunate but true. So if this PrC gets someone to play Paladin a few levels more, worship Torm and kick butt for Goodness, I think that's a win in my book. |
Edited by - Diffan on 25 Aug 2019 14:16:04 |
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Champion of Torm PrC
