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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2019 : 18:12:01
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So, I was thinking about the small population of avariels, and it occurred to me... wonder if any of them have holed up a bunch of half-elves (who breed much faster than elves) for the explicit purpose of repopulation. Basing this off some 1e concepts, which admittedly only noted 5 elven subraces and may be countermanded by later lore. I mean, I think the fey'ri were even trying something similar.
From some old lore (1st edition FR Campaign setting)
[/i]There are five known Elven sub-races in the Forgotten Realms, and four of them live in relative harmony. Crossbreeding is possible between the subraces, but in the case of the Elves, the child will either take after the male or female parents race (there are no drow/moon Elf mongrels, and the child of such an unlikely union would either have all the traits of a dark Elf, or of a moon Elf).
<snip>
Half-elves may mate and breed, but will always produce the offspring of the other parent (a Half-elf/elf pairing will produce elven children, while a Halfelf/ human pairing will result in human children). Second generation Half-elves only result if two Half-elves marry (as is the case in Aglarond).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2019 : 18:47:58
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What DO they do with their non-winged kiddos eh?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2019 : 20:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What DO they do with their non-winged kiddos eh?
IIRC, the avariel have wingless throwbacks now and then. Those wind up adopted by other surface-bound elves early enough than most have no memories of the avariel.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Half-elves may mate and breed, but will always produce the offspring of the other parent (a Half-elf/elf pairing will produce elven children, while a Halfelf/ human pairing will result in human children). Second generation Half-elves only result if two Half-elves marry (as is the case in Aglarond).
There's no lore at all about the half-Avariel.
Normally it does not happen simply because they are too isolated and aloof. To notice the effect, let alone encourage, would take unusual circumstances.
The "encourage" part is not easy either, if far from impossible. Consistent spreading of Air elemental magic among any sensible humans nearby could lead to enough of friendly contact that half-avariel would become less than exotic.
The main concern is that the Avariel are ultra-light even for elves, so human ancestry is likely to be a disadvantage. Also, it may increase frequency of wingless births, and if there's more offspring total, but the surplus happens to be large-eyed wingless elves found in baskets by other elves and delicately avoided by every Avariel ever after, it doesn't help. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2019 : 22:40:53
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Actually, I wasn't thinking half-avariels. So, if a half-moon elf and a gold elf were to mate, it would in theory produce EITHER
option 1) a moon elf OR a gold elf (I'm leaning to this) OR
option 2) a gold elf because the "elven blood" of the half-elf doesn't matter (this one would be better for my idea, but I'm straining from it, as it leaves OTHER options open for people's games)
I was thinking, half-elves being bred with avariels to produce true elves (of either avariel OR "other elf" descent). So, basically half-moon elf bred to an avariel, is either born moon elf or born avariel is my thoughts. Now, if its born moon/sun/wood/wild/drow/sea/star etc... well, the avariels just MIGHT treat them like second class citizens whose purpose is to... make more half elves with humans so that avariels don't have to sully themselves with that. Oh, and raise all those dirty half-elves so that they make good breeding stock, because you know the human stock is gonna die like a few years later in the eyes of the avariel while the half elf is still a child. Some of these other true elves MIGHT be allowed the REWARD of being allowed to breed with an avariel... you know if they're loyal and prove themselves worthy of it.... you know, because avariels are better than the other elves.
If this were done, it could fit well with the entry from Elves of Evermeet about the avariels of Pelvuria Glacier near Mount Sundabar. These avariels don't even KNOW about the elven retreat to Evermeet since they've been isolated so long. Why did they separate themselves from their fellow elves so much? Is it because they're afraid of what other elves might think about what they're doing and how they're treating their elven kin?
From Elves of Evermeet
The elves of Evermeet have discovered that a small colony of avariel, or winged elves (described in The Complete Book of Elves), survives on the frozen slopes of Mt. Sundabar, in the distant Pelvuria Glacier. Having been isolated from their land-bound cousins for so long, this group of winged Tel'Quessir did not hear the call to Retreat. The queen and her advisers feel that the avariel of Pelvuria should be informed of Evermeet's existence, and be offered a home there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Apr 2019 23:02:52 |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 00:41:20
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This thread got me thinking: how exactly are Avariel (or other winged bi-peds, Feyri etc) born? Giving birth is normally painful, traumatizing & dangerous enough as it is, but I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to give birth to a baby with wings sprouting from its shoulders/back......
Are Avariel babies born with wings, or do they grow during infancy?
Or are they born from eggs? And if so, are the omelettes any good?  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 03:22:21
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I would assume that they're born with wings, but those wings are short, stubby, and flexible enough to not be in the way on the way out. They're likely featherless, too, or only covered with the very small downy types of feathers. I would further assume that the wings stay pretty small for the first few years, at least until the young avariel has mastered walking. Around maybe 5 years of age, the wings start growing in fully, and maybe by the time the kid is 10, their wings match their size. They'd only be good for gliding, initially, though; it would still be a while before the wings were big enough and strong enough to lift off of the ground and sustain flight.
At least, that's how I'd explain it all, if I was tasked to do so. This is purely conjecture, not backed up by anything in canon that I am aware of. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 11:43:56
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Perhaps they just don't grow their wings until puberty.
I imagine a wingless avariel of any age would never be considered an adult in avariel society - indeed, the attitude might even extend to all flightless elves and surface races - no wings, not experienced and developed and "grown up", basically treated like children or adolescents. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 13:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would assume that they're born with wings, but those wings are short, stubby, and flexible enough to not be in the way on the way out. They're likely featherless, too, or only covered with the very small downy types of feathers. I would further assume that the wings stay pretty small for the first few years, at least until the young avariel has mastered walking. Around maybe 5 years of age, the wings start growing in fully, and maybe by the time the kid is 10, their wings match their size. They'd only be good for gliding, initially, though; it would still be a while before the wings were big enough and strong enough to lift off of the ground and sustain flight.
At least, that's how I'd explain it all, if I was tasked to do so. This is purely conjecture, not backed up by anything in canon that I am aware of.
That actually is a very good question, because I never would have said that Githyanki were born from eggs, but.... Still, I'd not liken avariels to birds except that they have wings. Aarakocra, kenku, raptorans, dire corbies (basically, a savage underdark version of Kenku which are featherless, "horned", and claw handed), crow tengu (which are essentially small kenku, but still possessing wings), manni/kara/"black ones" (original aarakocra type build crow people... i.e. wings, but not arms, with small "hands" on the wings) …. yeah, but not avariels.
This is a very good answer in my book. Kind of like how a babies skull is not "solid" when it comes out and it takes a few months before the pieces set in place. So, for a few months they have a soft spot. I'd bet the same goes with their initial wings. Probably small "nubs". Probably somewhat malleable, and probably they have to be careful with them the first few days. They may even have to stroke them into shape periodically until they harden. Perhaps even the "cradle"/"nest"/"bed" hast to be padded in extremely soft materials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Apr 2019 13:53:30 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 16:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I was thinking, half-elves being bred with avariels to produce true elves (of either avariel OR "other elf" descent).
That's much more feasible.
But increases both potential disadvantages.
quote:
Now, if its born moon/sun/wood/wild/drow/sea/star etc... well, the avariels just MIGHT treat them like second class citizens whose purpose
Won't work this way: as followers of Winged Mother, they don't think like typical goldies.
On the other wing, however, the Avariel habitually divide creatures to those who can fly and those who can't (at whom they look down), rather than just elves and everyone else to look down at, like most other elves.
Hence my point about the right sort of magic: it's a relatively accessible door, since one needs only to reach level equivalent of fireball throwing, and magelings who can do that aren't rare (flying sort is likely to have better life expectancy than fireball-lobbers, too).
quote:
it could fit well with the entry from Elves of Evermeet about the avariels of Pelvuria Glacier near Mount Sundabar. These avariels don't even KNOW about the elven retreat to Evermeet since they've been isolated so long. Why did they separate themselves from their fellow elves so much? Is it because they're afraid of what other elves might think about what they're doing and how they're treating their elven kin?
Little to no contact with the surface elves is normal for the avariel, per most canon material.
In part, because they can't help but look down at the other elves too, in part because their society and life style are very different, and they in general care little about other Elven gods.
They obviously have to be more isolated if they have to hide from dragons, like on Toril. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 17:17:44
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| I wouldn't necessarily equate staying away from other elves as meaning that avariel don't worship the Seldarine. There are plenty of real-world religious groups that live apart from others, but still follow the same basic faith. Sure, there are differences in how each group worships, but not in the basics of the faith. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 20:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I was thinking, half-elves being bred with avariels to produce true elves (of either avariel OR "other elf" descent).
That's much more feasible.
But increases both potential disadvantages.
quote:
Now, if its born moon/sun/wood/wild/drow/sea/star etc... well, the avariels just MIGHT treat them like second class citizens whose purpose
Won't work this way: as followers of Winged Mother, they don't think like typical goldies.
On the other wing, however, the Avariel habitually divide creatures to those who can fly and those who can't (at whom they look down), rather than just elves and everyone else to look down at, like most other elves.
Hence my point about the right sort of magic: it's a relatively accessible door, since one needs only to reach level equivalent of fireball throwing, and magelings who can do that aren't rare (flying sort is likely to have better life expectancy than fireball-lobbers, too).
quote:
it could fit well with the entry from Elves of Evermeet about the avariels of Pelvuria Glacier near Mount Sundabar. These avariels don't even KNOW about the elven retreat to Evermeet since they've been isolated so long. Why did they separate themselves from their fellow elves so much? Is it because they're afraid of what other elves might think about what they're doing and how they're treating their elven kin?
Little to no contact with the surface elves is normal for the avariel, per most canon material.
In part, because they can't help but look down at the other elves too, in part because their society and life style are very different, and they in general care little about other Elven gods.
They obviously have to be more isolated if they have to hide from dragons, like on Toril.
As followers of the winged mother, it might be a problem... and yet many worship Auril as Aurilandur. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if those who are in the Pelvuria Glaciers might not be amongst those. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 02:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As followers of the winged mother, it might be a problem... and yet many worship Auril as Aurilandur. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if those who are in the Pelvuria Glaciers might not be amongst those.
«The Aerie of the Snow Eagles is a crystalline citadel built atop the peak of Mount Sundabar in the distant land of Sossal, north and east of Pelvuria, the Great Glacier. The last redoubt of the avariel in Faerun, Aerdrie's preeminent temple has long been forgotten, even by the Fair Folk of Cormanthyr, Evereska, and Evermeet.» (Demihuman Deities).
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 22:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would assume that they're born with wings, but those wings are short, stubby, and flexible enough to not be in the way on the way out. They're likely featherless, too, or only covered with the very small downy types of feathers.
Another possible birthing method could be that Avariels emerge from the womb its entire body wrapped in a body-sized soft cocoon of wing feathers, possibly as soft and downy as any feather known, which could make childbirth a breeze (pun intended). 
It would also make the baby's gender reveal interesting. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2019 : 16:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As followers of the winged mother, it might be a problem... and yet many worship Auril as Aurilandur. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if those who are in the Pelvuria Glaciers might not be amongst those.
«The Aerie of the Snow Eagles is a crystalline citadel built atop the peak of Mount Sundabar in the distant land of Sossal, north and east of Pelvuria, the Great Glacier. The last redoubt of the avariel in Faerun, Aerdrie's preeminent temple has long been forgotten, even by the Fair Folk of Cormanthyr, Evereska, and Evermeet.» (Demihuman Deities).
interesting... that is a good find, and it does imply that those avariels do worship Aerdrie in the 1300's. So her most distinguished/towering temple is a bit forgotten and possibly even neglected. The spellplague happens. The avariel turn to Auril. Granted, Aerdrie is back post sundering, but that doesn't mean her followers instantly flip back. I should stress here that what I'm proposing is current realms, and it would be a relatively recent trend. If anything, they may have gone about gathering half elves for the purposes of breeding over the last century (maybe they even got the idea from the tiefling change). It may just be that the first generation of new avariels is JUST coming of age (almost a century old), born on half elves captured and placed into a breeding program. This would seem to fit both Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness (who may be the same being, or who may be separate beings, one of whom influenced the other for a while).
Also, it might not JUST be up in the glaciers. The avariels in the earthmotes above Adder Hills are noted as "warring" with the aarakocra nearby. Its a bit of a change in personality.
Dragon 367
Silverlight Aerie: Nestled within a sheltered dale among the southeastern peaks of the Glas Nure exists a community of al karak elam, known to mortals as the avariel or winged elves. The mist-laden nest-town was settled amid a soaring canopy of ethereal yew trees, and it stretches nearly half a mile vertically while remaining an equal distance above the ground at its lowest point. The avariel here profess a deep devotion to Auril, having adopted the faith of the Frostmaiden following her victory over Aerdrie Faenya. Highly reclusive beings, the al karak elam seldom initiate contact with others. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Apr 2019 16:25:06 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 17:43:24
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There is one bit of Planescape lore I adapted to use in the Realms: there you find a colony of avariel who worship Remnis, the Lord of Eagles (they are in the Planes of Conflict boxed set). They would be more of the warrior avariel, in contrast with the philosopher avariel who would mostly worship Aerdrie.
When I read about them I wondered if they were born in the planes or if they came from some material plane, and I liked the idea so much that I adopted it, making up an isolated avariel community somewhere in the Spine of the World.
I have even explained the name al-karak-elam as a corruption of an elven term for the brave avariel that fought against the dragons at the time of the establishment of the dracorage mythal (I used the official elven dictionary to devise the original term). This avariel tribe would have the descendants of these heroes among them. 
As for the thread, I'd also consider the children of such unions would be full elves, either of the avariel or of the "other half" stock. However, I don't see avariel resorting to half-elf breeding as a strategy to recover their population. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 22 Apr 2019 19:00:21 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 02:12:36
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| I have to agree. Because why would avariels want to focus on making more half-elves (with forever-diluted bloodlines, half flightless, half of them not even avariels) instead of making more full-elves? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2019 : 15:38:24
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Forgotten realms got same rules for elven ancestry in some regards as Elder Scrolls, one of the reason I think the "last Dwemer" in Morrowing were infected with the worst disease in the game series...
Imho, this sounds "doable", but I can't just imagine it would not have some sort of result, some weird kid adopted in Evermeet never quite fitting in, experiencing strange air affinities, etc. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 02:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I have to agree. Because why would avariels want to focus on making more half-elves (with forever-diluted bloodlines, half flightless, half of them not even avariels) instead of making more full-elves?
IF they did this program, Avariel females born in this society would probably ONLY breed to avariel males.
Avariel males though would breed to half elven elven females. It would probably be with "harems" of half elven female concubines to each avariel male (if each male produced a child with 10 half elf women per year...), plus their "wife" who is an avariel female.
Full blooded non-avariel elven males would breed to "harems" of human female "concubines" to produce more half-elves (note, this would most likely be full blooded elves born off half-elf/avariel matings, so they may not know of other elven societies). Full blooded non-avariel females would breed to their elven male husbands (though scandals might involve some of these females birthing avariel children as they secretly mate with the avariel males for favors).
Half-elven males would breed to human females to produce more human stock.
Human males.... maybe the avariels let them marry the older female humans who are no longer of breeding age.
As I see it, in this society, the female avariels would be seen as the ultimate "queens" to be celebrated, protected, and loved. The full-blooded elven females would also rank highly. All other females are "more important" than their male counterparts, but they also don't rank as high as the avariels. Granted, the males are breeding with multiple partners, but maybe they only truly love their avariel "wife". The concubines in these houses would serve as "handmaidens" to the "Queen of the house". So, picture it as avariel women being served by dozens of half-elven women, while other elven women are served by dozens of human women. Finally, those human women who provide good service are "rewarded" later in life with some "young human buck" to take care of her.
While I don't see this as being "all avariels are like this"... I could see a remote sect, isolated, needing to replenish themselves, and very much "cold heartedly" performing this type of act in the service of Auril, the Queen of Air and Darkness. It would very much be a tiered society with no way to escalate yourself, but hopefully your children will always "have a better life than you had" because they "move up the ladder". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 05:42:12
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| Sounds exhausting for the males..... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2019 : 22:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
Sounds exhausting for the males.....
Yeah, but how many would sign up for it gladly? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Somewhat sick idea for avariels
