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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2019 : 16:02:24
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Zeromaru and/or Seethyr, if you see this, I would really like your input (not discouraging others, but I think this is a topic both would be interested in).
So, I'm watching Netflix's season 2 of Dragon Prince and digging on it. It very much has an avatar/last airbender vibe, but in a different way. One of the focuses is on "dark magic", which is basically people just using components to power their magic, and those components are body parts from magical creatures. That got me thinking about how Abeir is a place where their magic is found IN things like body parts of the titans, but I've always theorized that they could probably find magic in things like a displacer beasts body parts, etc...
So, one of the things I had been pondering so much was how to have my United Tharchs of Toril start "building" a weave while on Abeir. I had them focusing on areas with large amounts of raw magic, and then finding gems, metals, and even plants that could act as foci to be offered up as sacrifices on the altars of the gods of magic (said gods would then secretly spread the weave). I'm not sure why it didn't hit in my head that they'd probably also be capturing magical animals and sacrificing/converting them into distilled magic.
That got me thinking about Hishna magic of the Maztican continent... which had involvement with Abeir, and which I had theorized that perhaps in the past that continent may have been ON Abeir. The humans there may have practiced magic involving harnessing the power of animals, because that's EXACTLY what Hishna is, and it may have been a helluva lot more powerful on Abeir.
So, I'm also thinking to myself "this conflict on TV is between elves and humans, with the elves on the side of the dragons .. which are noble beasts in this". So, I'm thinking "Abeir doesn't have elves, and all the dragons are portrayed as asshat tyrants". But, then I thought what if there are dragons and dragonborn that work together in Abeir, far from where the OTHER dragonborn are. After all, its a big damn world and we're only seeing things through the microscope of Akanul/Tymanther/Laerakond.
So, other dragons... other dragonborn... Maztica... aearee... feathers... claws/talons...
What IF there are Plumed Dragons and "Fey" Dragons in Abeir (yes, dragonborn based on faerie dragons or other types of fey dragons... and by that I mean "nature" dragons... kind of like Oriental dragons)? There might even be subraces of "faerie dragons" with different wings and different types of breath weapons
What if there are Plumed Dragonborn and "Fey" dragonborn in Abeir? I can easily picture the plumed ones, but I admit the fey ones are harder to picture... but thinking the "woodling" template from 3rd edition, and less a butterfly winged dragonborn. These dragonborn might be less stocky than standard dragonborn... more flexible, taller/thinner, etc...
I also remember some 2e or earlier "fey" dragon with bark for skin, and that could fit.
So, then I'm picturing, what if on Abeir there are human kingdoms that are unable to use "the weave" because it didn't exist, but they were harvesting dragonborn, dragons, and other magical beasts for their innate magic. It may have even been called Hishna. It may not be just humans. Dwarves are generally non-magical, and they're master crafters, so they may have been "crafting" Hishna items on Abeir as well that was harvested from dragonborn, etc... of Abeir.
Then I'm picturing, what if in an attempt to defend themselves, these dragons and dragonborn essentially SENT Maztica FROM Abeir TO Toril long ago and the humans and dwarves along with it. Kind of like how the elves long ago did the elven Sundering and brought Evermeet from the Feywild to Toril. Then I noted how "odd" it was that there was this "copy" of Evermeet that was down near Laerakond during the spellplague years. Not sure what to do with that, but its a hook.
Snippets of ideas that were also occurring to me
Thayans stealing Durthan concepts. They figure out how to create "dark" versions of telthors, in that they bind the spirits of magical animals to the land as a means of creating a rudimentary weave. These creatures naturally draw upon ley lines and slowly fill the area with magic. Like ghosts, if killed, they reform unless a special ritual is used.
The area connecting Maztica and Anchorome is desolate deserts. Perhaps this is from the humans basically defiling the world while on Abeir for magic. This may be part of why these lands were cast out from Abeir. If we do do this concept, somehow play this into the City of Gold concept with Micha, the golden dust which gives the City of Gold its name. Also, if this concept is used, perhaps the city of Esh Alakar has ties to the culture that was cast from Abeir.
So, I'm just kind of throwing all of this down to paper as fast as I can think. Does it sound like an interesting idea worth pursuing or am I just fascinated at this moment and will realize its not all that special of a concept? I know its my own thoughts, so I'm naturally biased. Any improvements?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2019 : 17:13:11
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Just throwing down some more ideas here before I lose them
Mist dragons, shadow dragons, Cloud dragons, Amber Dragons (Monstrous Compendium Annual 3... thick bark-like skin, breathes hot sap), Moonstone Dragons (MC Annual 4... ties to dreams and thus dream magic, anti-magic breath that induces sleep, awe aura instead of fear), Prismatic dragon (MC Annual 4... mirror like skin with rainbow refraction... break is sparkling effect). Possible related dragonborn / half-dragons, etc...
Dragon humanoids with thin/barklike scales and moss and stick-like horns. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 04:00:48
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Just some random thoughts as I’m reading your post. If I come up with more I’ll get back to you. Please note that I’m also in a bar right now posting on my phone so beware incoming typos.
-Hishna Magic was a gift from Zaltec used to elevate his worship (in the form of encouraging warfare) to mankind. In City of Gold, there are allusions to a brand of magic known as “fetish magic,” and my impression is that this is what you are trying to get to. Perhaps Zaltec stole this concept from the northern gods himself though, even though the Maztica Boxed set claims he created it.
- I was basically allergic to 4e, but I do remember a species of dragon that was very much plumed. Looked just like a smaller version of Qotal/Quetzalcoatl in fact though tthe lore had nothing to do with Maztica (oddly). I’m sure you could easily add to their lore to make them Abeir or Maztica based.
-I’ve homebrewed creatures known as Sand Elders that inhabit that desolate region you mentioned between Anchorome and Maztica. They are massive elemental giants that I’ve always thought to connect to Abeir. If you’re interested I could send you a copy of the bestiary I put them in (though it’s free in DMsGuild). Note that the area is also inhabited canonically by the dog people and desert dwarves.
-Micha is the gold dust that Michaca, the City of Gold, is founded upon. It comes from a demiplane called Wenimats where deity/great spirits of the Azuposi reside.
That’s all I got for now, but as I think of more I’ll edit this.
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The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 10:08:33
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lol, no worries, and thanks for the response.
Yep, and one of the things hinted to is that the Maztican gods MAY be primordials instead of "gods" (which has little game difference, since primordials who are powerful enough can grant spells just like gods). This comes from some of the stuff that kind of links Ubtao and Qotal in GHotR. So, IF Zaltec is a "primordial" that came over from Abeir at some point, he may have taught those humans this type of magic maybe even while over in Abeir. On the fetish magic, yes, I was thinking that too is very similar in my rushed thoughts. All of these may be forms of "Abeiran" magic, and maybe they were VERY effective in Abeir, but less so here. Picturing these humans hunting these various dragonborn to harvest them for parts. They may have also performed Athasian style defiling magic. Then the dragons/dragonborn "send them away" via some great dragon magic ritual and their lands are crossed over into Toril.
These cultures in Abeir might also have included not just draconic, but also couatl variants too, as that would seem to fit the general theme... including feathered snake people as well maybe. We might even find that the Aearee are this culture, and the elven sundering sent them to Abeir. Basically, I wonder how many times Abeir and Toril may have crossed small sections from one side to the other, and I know a lot of the designers have specifically hinted that it may have been more than just 2 instances. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 15:37:51
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I’m more in the mind that the Maztica deities are interloper gods, rather than primordials. Perhaps this is because I fell in love with Maztica before primordials were a thing, but also because it seems like Faerunian prehistory is rife with these transplants from other crystal spheres. I know Qotal isn’t Questzalcoat exactly (i.e.) but I see him being more of a Torillian aspect of the god than a prehistorical Abeiran primordial. Either way works though - there’s no canonical word on this as far as I know.
With that being said, there are some wonderful Aztec myth based “monsters” that would be ideal choices for Abeiran primordials if you are interested. Look up Cipactli for a starter - I think the legends behind this crocodilian creature would make for a great Abeiran. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
Edited by - Seethyr on 20 Feb 2019 15:40:33 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 20:49:20
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One thing to take into account about primordials is that they are more physical in nature than gods. Gods represent concepts, primordials represent the raw natural stuff. So, Talos may be is the god of storms, but he can not compete with Heur-Ket, the storm itself.
My point is that while a few maztican gods qualify as primordials (Maztica, for instance, as she is "the land itself") others don't. Unless Zaltec is more a god of blood than of war. OTOH, if the maztican gods are really primordials that would explain why Ao gave them a few privileges compared with the faerûnian gods.
As for dragonborn, I think is a good idea to have "variants". The dragonborn of today are just that way because they were breed by Abeiran (more precisely, Laerakondan) dragons to be slaves. According to Dragons of Faerûn, the original dragonborn were more draconic in nature than those of today (as they were direct creations of Bahamut himself -- see the dragonborn from 3.5 Races of the Dragon). I have a theory that the current dragonborn were created when dragons uncovered Bahamut's recipe for creating dragonborn, and that means some dragons may have have created different variants, not just chromatic and metallic. Also, current day dragonborn have less "purity" because they have married with members of other bloodlines (as per 5e PHB), but I'm pretty sure pure-blooded dragonborn still exist. They may be rare, tho.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Feb 2019 21:18:24 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 00:55:36
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| My apologies for this being slightly off topic but Zeromaru’s post just got me thinking about the Dragonborn and the Draconians of Krynn. Has anyone made that connection before? There has to have been. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 01:30:25
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| Draconians seem to be Tiamat's counterpart to dragonborn, now that you mention it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 03:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
My apologies for this being slightly off topic but Zeromaru’s post just got me thinking about the Dragonborn and the Draconians of Krynn. Has anyone made that connection before? There has to have been.
There are superficial similarities, but that's it. Draconians -- which well predate either version of dragonborn -- were unnatural creations, products of evil magic being used to twist unborn dragons into new forms. They were a creation of mortal magic, and when slain, they turned to stone or blew up or melted to acid.
Dragonborn in 3E were servants of Bahamut, people who'd chosen to be reborn into a draconic likeness.
I don't know the origin story of post-3E dragonborn, but they are a race that has bred true and doesn't rely on magic or divine blessings to procreate, and unlike draconians, a dead dragonborn isn't a hazard to anyone.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 04:44:43
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They have many origins in 4e. Core (Nentir Vale) dragonborn believe they are creations of Io, but how he created them is a matter of debate. In Dark Sun, dragonborn are just reskined dray, and in Eberron dragonborn believe they were created by dragons to be their servants.
Specific Realms material in 4e follow the Eberron explanation: dragonborn were breed by dragons to be their slaves, though a few dragonborn believe they were created by Bahamut and not by the dragons of Abeir (and Ed has confirmed that there is a connection between the dragonborn of Bahamut and the dragonborn from Abeir).
However, the people who wrote the SCAG ignored all of this and copy pasted the Nentir Vale explanation in that book... so, the canon Realms explanation is not that clear in 5e.
I don't remember if this is in the 5e PHB or in the play test materials, but 5e sources state that originally dragons needed the blessing of a dragon god to create dragonborn. This changed when they began to breed true. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Feb 2019 04:50:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 00:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
One thing to take into account about primordials is that they are more physical in nature than gods. Gods represent concepts, primordials represent the raw natural stuff. So, Talos may be is the god of storms, but he can not compete with Heur-Ket, the storm itself.
My point is that while a few maztican gods qualify as primordials (Maztica, for instance, as she is "the land itself") others don't. Unless Zaltec is more a god of blood than of war. OTOH, if the maztican gods are really primordials that would explain why Ao gave them a few privileges compared with the faerûnian gods.
As for dragonborn, I think is a good idea to have "variants". The dragonborn of today are just that way because they were breed by Abeiran (more precisely, Laerakondan) dragons to be slaves. According to Dragons of Faerûn, the original dragonborn were more draconic in nature than those of today (as they were direct creations of Bahamut himself -- see the dragonborn from 3.5 Races of the Dragon). I have a theory that the current dragonborn were created when dragons uncovered Bahamut's recipe for creating dragonborn, and that means some dragons may have have created different variants, not just chromatic and metallic. Also, current day dragonborn have less "purity" because they have married with members of other bloodlines (as per 5e PHB), but I'm pretty sure pure-blooded dragonborn still exist. They may be rare, tho.
One thing to bear in mind regarding Zaltec. He was represented as a volcano and his "avatar" was a giant walking stone statue. His portfolios may have been more "primal", but he could fit as primordial. Most of the Maztican gods fit as primordials (though the love goddess is hard to fit that mold... but maybe she's different for a reason). Then the hints that Ubtao and Qotal are the same being, along with the hints that Ubtao is a primordial in 4e, plus the fact that Ubtao pretty much appeared almost like a "manifestation" … its kind of a hint that maybe Qotal is a primordial as well. In fact, all these "gods" which break up into multiple spirit beings (Ulutiu, Ubtao, Uthgar, etc...) might be some kind of "alternate" form of primordial that's maybe tied less to elements and more to "life" or "nature" or somesuch.
On the dragonborn VARIANTS... if you don't mind, just help me throw out some ideas for what they might LOOK like.
For instance, I'm picturing the idea of Plumed dragonborn who basically are dragonborn with feathers and frills, so they might be very colorful. I also mentioned the idea of woodling type dragonborn, whose skin might be scales made of bark, with horns made of sticks, moss. Less original might be a dragonborn that's a "shadow dragonborn". Then, looking at cloud dragons, they have a giant sail-like "crest"/"frill" surrounding their heads, and that could be interesting if they're very lanky, etc... Then there may be ones with size differences (smaller, larger). There may be ones that are akin to dragon-like races (multiple headed dragonborn like hydras). Anything else strike you as a concept. I'm liking the first two as pretty original. The others might be more workable if they can get a little more originality to them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Feb 2019 01:08:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 00:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
My apologies for this being slightly off topic but Zeromaru’s post just got me thinking about the Dragonborn and the Draconians of Krynn. Has anyone made that connection before? There has to have been.
Not really a "connection" per se, BUT in some of my work on the United Tharchs, I mention that OLLLLDDDDD legends in Osse talk of a time in the "Era of Stone Sky" (read that as when Osse was in Abeir instead of Toril) in which humans stole dragon eggs and used a mix of dream and incarnum magic to split the dragon egg spirits and use this to change willing humans into draconians. The idea here would be that Takhisis stole/modified this concept millenia later.
Although this period of relative peace and prosperity lasted for a long time, the “Era of Stone Sky” also held a darker period, for the arrival of conquering dragons and dragonborn caught many villages unawares. The humans were taken away to serve as slaves or food for their dragon overlords, meanwhile periodic raids upon Osse tribes continued for millenia. The dragons generally avoided the skystone villages, as their dragonborn soldiers were unable to fly up to them without aid, and thus these societies began to draw more and more of their earthbound cousins to them. Eventually, the dragon overlords began to move onto Ossean soil, so that they could more easily raid for slaves and food. Soon, much of the northern and western coasts were filled with foreign colonies.
The turning point came when these humans of Osse led a small raid against one of the less powerful dragon overlords and captured over a dozen dragon eggs and more importantly, the spirits of hundreds of dragonborn which were absorbed into specially prepared totems. Using a variation on the ancient arts of dream magic and powerful incarnum, they were able to split the spirits within the dragon eggs and transform a willing human into a creature somewhat resembling dragonborn, but possessing wings and a tail. These gliding, dragonmen were near fearless and upon their death, many were known to explode with elemental energies. The humans of Osse, with the aid of many human slaves already within the draconic colonies, soon infiltrated several other dragon colonies and made off with over a hundred dragon eggs. However, based on knowledge gained from the human slaves, they also planted evidence to make the various overlords suspect their fellows rather than the primitive humans. By the time the dragons realized it was the humans who had turned against them, an army of thousands of these dragonmen had been created to serve the humans in their Skystone villages.
The fury of the dragons knew no bounds, and even though they could not easily transport their dragonborn soldiers to assault the Skystone villages, several dragons moved against each of the nearest tribe to them. They were not prepared for the dragonmen, many of whom dived down in suicide flights from the backs of giant hawks to rend and tear at reptilian wings, forcing their enemies to crash to earth. Many dragons were caught unawares when they simply bit into a dragonman, only to have them explode in their mouth. The devastation was amazing, but it further incited riots amongst the overlords' colonies, as dragonborn saw in the dragonmen a reflection of themselves opposing their masters. Within a short time, all dragons had been slain in Osse, and their holdings seized by their servants. A new friendship was forged between dragonborn and human, as many of the transformed humans bred with dragonborn. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 01:20:06
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| Oh, and on where to put these strange dragonborn cultures.... my thoughts were that on the old Maztican map, there was all this wasteland northwest of Kultaka with nothing but deserts. It was the sands of Itzcala and Mt. Chalcopan it looks like. The land had the dog men and Nahopaca in it. It might be that on Abeir this was a verdant paradise, because these "naturey" dragonborn OR dragons MILLENIA ago had used power to shift a bunch of humans OR OTHER BEINGS to Toril (said beings then died out and their culture devastated the area turning it into deserts on Toril). When the sundering happens after the spellplague, this area could get updated. Since very little was ever done with this area, it shouldn't bother many people. It also doesn't have to be that whole area... because that area is HUGE. In fact, this area that we might "import to replace desert" could even be EAST of the Pasocada basin and WEST of Fort Flame, such that its more northerly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 03:03:14
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I'm beginning to suspect sleyvas don't like the idea of a world ruled by dragons, lol
Anyways, aren't the draconians like the evilest of the evil? I can see them working for the dragons rather than against them. However, I cannot picture metallic dragons very happy with those "corrupted" eggs.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and on where to put these strange dragonborn cultures.... my thoughts were that on the old Maztican map, there was all this wasteland northwest of Kultaka with nothing but deserts. It was the sands of Itzcala and Mt. Chalcopan it looks like. The land had the dog men and Nahopaca in it. It might be that on Abeir this was a verdant paradise, because these "naturey" dragonborn OR dragons MILLENIA ago had used power to shift a bunch of humans OR OTHER BEINGS to Toril (said beings then died out and their culture devastated the area turning it into deserts on Toril). When the sundering happens after the spellplague, this area could get updated. Since very little was ever done with this area, it shouldn't bother many people. It also doesn't have to be that whole area... because that area is HUGE. In fact, this area that we might "import to replace desert" could even be EAST of the Pasocada basin and WEST of Fort Flame, such that its more northerly.
I have a culture of dragonborn different to those of Laerakond (they don't call themselves Vayemniri) that I had created specifically for a post-Abeiran Maztika. I'm not sure where to place them, lol.
As with all of my Realms stuff, I don't have shared this because here people is not fond of anything 4e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Feb 2019 03:11:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 15:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I'm beginning to suspect sleyvas don't like the idea of a world ruled by dragons, lol
Anyways, aren't the draconians like the evilest of the evil? I can see them working for the dragons rather than against them. However, I cannot picture metallic dragons very happy with those "corrupted" eggs.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and on where to put these strange dragonborn cultures.... my thoughts were that on the old Maztican map, there was all this wasteland northwest of Kultaka with nothing but deserts. It was the sands of Itzcala and Mt. Chalcopan it looks like. The land had the dog men and Nahopaca in it. It might be that on Abeir this was a verdant paradise, because these "naturey" dragonborn OR dragons MILLENIA ago had used power to shift a bunch of humans OR OTHER BEINGS to Toril (said beings then died out and their culture devastated the area turning it into deserts on Toril). When the sundering happens after the spellplague, this area could get updated. Since very little was ever done with this area, it shouldn't bother many people. It also doesn't have to be that whole area... because that area is HUGE. In fact, this area that we might "import to replace desert" could even be EAST of the Pasocada basin and WEST of Fort Flame, such that its more northerly.
I have a culture of dragonborn different to those of Laerakond (they don't call themselves Vayemniri) that I had created specifically for a post-Abeiran Maztika. I'm not sure where to place them, lol.
As with all of my Realms stuff, I don't have shared this because here people is not fond of anything 4e.
Oddly, I like a lot of the new stuff in 4e, my problems were with what they destroyed. That being said, I could see possibly some people who might be irked (possibly Seethyr) to have a dragonborn group in the Maztican area. That's why I'm thinking put it far enough out that it doesn't affect the base area and takes up some area that had little development.
My viewpoint on draconians is simple... it depends on how they came about. Takhisis corrupted GOOD dragon eggs into draconians. But, still there are some draconians on Krynn that aren't evil. But, the draconians that I dreamed up for long ago in Abeir were humans that tied themselves to draconic spirits using basically shamanic type magics. As a result, they still thought like humans, but took on draconic bodies (wings, claws, etc..). This would have been during a time long ago when humans didn't have technology and were essentially savages, so the improvements in becoming a draconian would be significant (claws, fangs, wings, armored hide, etc...). Note, this would be a significan change to the eventual ritual that Takhisis used, which didn't require hosts, it just corrupted the dragon egg into producing multiple draconians. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 15:30:20
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| Oh, and IF you were to make "items" from body parts of dragonborn, what do you picture? I'm picturing a dragonborn eye preserved in amber at the end of a "wand" made of dragonborn bones. I'm picturing a dragonborn "helm" made of a skull that lets you initiate a breath weapon. Maybe dragonborn wings that you wear like a cloak (I know, other dragonborn have no wings). On the dragonborn with plant body parts, those body parts could be used to make wooden magic items. Maybe a shield covered in dragonborn scales. A primitive spear, dagger, short sword, etc.. with dragon fangs. Blunt weapons made of bones. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 16:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oddly, I like a lot of the new stuff in 4e, my problems were with what they destroyed.
I agree with you there. My perfect Realms are those where the new and old lore coexist.
As for putting dragonborn in Maztica, and perhaps one or two dragon lords (either good or evil), I see it more like a logical outcome than anything else. Within a century is logical that visitors and at least one would-be conqueror may have reached Maztica. Either earlier or later in that timeframe. A full migration is not that logical (unless you really want to change things in a meaningful way), but a few newcommers must have arrived.
The cultural impact this may have had is another thing to consider. I guess we can keep it to a minimum if we really need it/want it, but there must be one. It's completely illogical that a 100 years trip to another world with clearly different rules than Toril may have left stuff unchanged.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But, the draconians that I dreamed up for long ago in Abeir were humans that tied themselves to draconic spirits using basically shamanic type magics. As a result, they still thought like humans, but took on draconic bodies (wings, claws, etc..).
Basically, the original dragonborn concept from 3.x Races of the Dragon.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and IF you were to make "items" from body parts of dragonborn, what do you picture? I'm picturing a dragonborn eye preserved in amber at the end of a "wand" made of dragonborn bones. I'm picturing a dragonborn "helm" made of a skull that lets you initiate a breath weapon. Maybe dragonborn wings that you wear like a cloak (I know, other dragonborn have no wings). On the dragonborn with plant body parts, those body parts could be used to make wooden magic items. Maybe a shield covered in dragonborn scales. A primitive spear, dagger, short sword, etc.. with dragon fangs. Blunt weapons made of bones.
Dragonborn can have wings in fact. As well as many other draconic abilities. Lorewise, the current bloodlines are just too muddled because interbreeding, and that is the reason dragonborn aren't as powerful as they should be. But a few dragonborn can tap into their draconic potential and unleash their full power (this is reflected in feats and other racial options in 4e and 5e).
As for items, yours are very good ideas, and canon compatible to boot. I mean, canonically we know dragonborn did the same, lol. Like Khorsaya, one of the ancestors of clan Verthisathurgiesh (the clan of the dragonborn deuterogonist of Erin's novels), who used the thighbones of her own father to craft a magic knife to kill one of the dragon tyrants with blood magic (using her own fermented blood for this). Anyways, this is the standard "nursery tale" of clan Verthisathurgiesh. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Feb 2019 17:03:14 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 17:31:14
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I’ve been looking and looking and finally found it - it’s the Mirage Dragon from 4e that literally looked like Qotal himself. From what I remember, their lore was difficult to connect to Maztica, but if you are looking for a dragon to base Abeiran plumed Dragonborn off of, that would be a direct hit.
Speaking of 4e, I actually really DID hate it, mostly for what it did t the Realms. But now In retrospect some of its lore is growing on me like a fungus. I’m starting to love the Dragonborn for one and primordials as well (though I am still finding it hard to reconcile the Maztican gods as being primordials, I’ve always seen them as interlopers). Maztica though is certainly rife for new primordials - what would a Maztican primordial (other than the deities) look like? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 18:14:52
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I don't see the mirage dragons that irreconcilable with Maztican lore. They are Feywild dragons, and I guess Maztica has a lot of feycrosses cuz primal forests and the like. The Feywild (or Faerie, as is known in earlier editions) may have been distant from Faerûn in the time before the Spellplague, but this is not a necessary truth for Maztica.
The good thing about mirage dragons is that they don't have any Realmslore attached to them. Perhaps Qotal adopted them when he discovered them near a feycrossing and took their likeness? He may even have created them in the distant past, and they just migrated to the Feywild after Qotal disappeared.
As for the primordials, I'm not that knowledgeable about Aztec or Mayan traditions, but anything resembling a natural catastrophe is a good candidate. Cipactli is a good candidate as well. His physical description screams "primordial" to me.
From the Muiscan culture (the native culture of my country), Chibchacum is also a good candidate for a primordial in the Lopangian region. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Feb 2019 18:19:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2019 : 17:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oddly, I like a lot of the new stuff in 4e, my problems were with what they destroyed.
I agree with you there. My perfect Realms are those where the new and old lore coexist.
As for putting dragonborn in Maztica, and perhaps one or two dragon lords (either good or evil), I see it more like a logical outcome than anything else. Within a century is logical that visitors and at least one would-be conqueror may have reached Maztica. Either earlier or later in that timeframe. A full migration is not that logical (unless you really want to change things in a meaningful way), but a few newcommers must have arrived.
The cultural impact this may have had is another thing to consider. I guess we can keep it to a minimum if we really need it/want it, but there must be one. It's completely illogical that a 100 years trip to another world with clearly different rules than Toril may have left stuff unchanged.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But, the draconians that I dreamed up for long ago in Abeir were humans that tied themselves to draconic spirits using basically shamanic type magics. As a result, they still thought like humans, but took on draconic bodies (wings, claws, etc..).
Basically, the original dragonborn concept from 3.x Races of the Dragon.
Yes, I'm going for the good dragon concept in Maztica, with them taking on a more naturey/elvish type of role, which the Poscadari elves may not appreciate. By that I mean that though both may have similar views, they may still conflict with one another. They would definitely not like my United Tharchs. I'd also put this group in conflict with the Maztica people to the south, and especially with the hordes of orcs, trolls, and special Maztican ogres that have come about in the years JUST prior to the spellplague and that worship Zaltec. Basically, I'm seeing these dragonborn fitting in with the worship of Qotal (hmmm, and Qotal has ties to butterflies... worth looking at), such that maybe he appears to them in mortal form during the time in Abeir, and they believe him to be a Dawn Titan. He may even appear to them as something akin to a giant draconic couatl. Just thoughts.
Oh, and yes, now that you mention it, the idea I had for the LOOONNNGG ago draconians in Abeir is very similar to the 3.5e humans becoming dragonborn. The difference being that they standard draconians had wings and typically had other abilities such as spellcasting or special effects when they died (exploding, petrifying, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2019 : 18:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’ve been looking and looking and finally found it - it’s the Mirage Dragon from 4e that literally looked like Qotal himself. From what I remember, their lore was difficult to connect to Maztica, but if you are looking for a dragon to base Abeiran plumed Dragonborn off of, that would be a direct hit.
Speaking of 4e, I actually really DID hate it, mostly for what it did t the Realms. But now In retrospect some of its lore is growing on me like a fungus. I’m starting to love the Dragonborn for one and primordials as well (though I am still finding it hard to reconcile the Maztican gods as being primordials, I’ve always seen them as interlopers). Maztica though is certainly rife for new primordials - what would a Maztican primordial (other than the deities) look like?
The Great Spirits of Anchorome very much could be Primordials. Bear in mind that things like Dendar the Night Serpent and Kezef the Chaos Hound are considered to be Primordials.
Thank you for the info on the Mirage Dragons. In what book are they found? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2019 : 19:38:19
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I feel that the spirits of Anchorome are more akin to Primal Spirits than to primordials. As for the mirage dragons, they are from Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons.
If you're interested, I have been working in a version of Maztican dragonborn. This is what I have shared at the Piazza, but I'm sure I have a more developed version somewhere amid my D&D stuff.
Maztican dragonborn
The Maztican dragonborn or "Tanarvraki", as they call themselves, are the descendants of the dragonborn that came to Maztica from the lands of Abeir during the so-called Age of Silence. They first came to the True World as slaves to tyrannical dragon overlords that wanted to conquer the new lands and subjugate their native inhabitants. However, as with generations of dragonborn before them, they rose up in rebellion and soon allied with the fierce maztican natives, eventually overthrowing their masters and gaining their freedom.
Present day Tanarvraki live mainly in “…” lands, and their largest known settlement is the city of Djerad Pokmerus, a thriving community that have trade routes with the cities of “…”. However, many clans of Tanarvraki are known for their nomadic ways, traveling the lands on their Ossanhurthi, mobile estructures that are used as housing and storage. They are pulled by trained drakes or scathebeats, animals that were also brought from Abeir. The clan Maethir use their magic to make it possible for the Ossanhurthi to move through the forests, earning the nickname of "landboats" by mazticans.
On names:
First names can be the same from the PHB or Xanathar's Guide, however clan names need to be different from those, as the clan names from those books are from Tymantheran clans. I have compiled some new (more simple) clan names for the maztican clans.
Ada'maal, Da'Morkoth, Kral’Tajir, Na’Kala, Orak'Tamor, Sa'Manga, Sanaj’Rakal, Ul'Harej, Ux'Caex, Ux’Zechs, Ux’Yrthas, Va'Daruz, Za'Veri, Zhal’Vazir, Y'Daurak
On Draconic words:
From what I know from Erin M. Evans novels, Abeiran dragonborn hate to be related to dragons. Calling them dragonborn is like an insult to them. Tymatheran dragonborn call themselves Vayemniri (The Ash Marked Ones), but my maztican dragonborn can't be called like that because they aren't related to Tymanchebar in any fashion. So, I came up with a name fit for rebel slaves: the Sons of Liberty (yeah, too much Metal Gear  ). I have had to tweak a little bit the draconic words to form a name that I liked, and so Tanarvraki was born (from Tanarg, what means chaos or freedom -- this word is from a list of draconic words from Dragon 260; vrak, [from the list in the Draconomicon] that means son; and the suffix -i that is just decorative).
However, dragons call them by another name, that also can be used by members of other races: Darasrek. According to the vocabulary in Draconomicon, the suffix "daras" has to do with dragons and draconic beings, such as in "Darastrix" (dragon) or "Darasv" (half-dragon). And "threk" comes from the word "Munthrek" (human) -- the word "munth" means normal, so I guess "rek" has to do with humanoids (so in a dragon PoV, humans are just "normal humanoids", lol), so "Darasrek" can be translated as something like "draconic humanoid".
** A digression: I know that in one of Erin's novels, a dragon calls the dragonborn "strixiki", but according to Erin this was meant as an insult. She translated the word as "Little Imposters". However, if we study the etymology of the word, "strix" means "invigorate" (according to the vocabulary in Races of the Dragon), so a more accurate translation can be "the invigorated ones". Seeing that Abeiran dragons breed dragonborn as slaves, however, I guess "strixiki" can also be translated as "slave". Or more specifically "breed slave".
Anyways, I named their city "Djerad Pokmerus", that means "The City were our journey ends" in draconic (Pok means stop, and Umerus means path -- Dragon 260. Djerad means clanhold, but can also be translated as city, according to Erin). Also, Pokmerus sound like a indian word, so I like it.
Ossanhurthi means "Travelling Fortress", and are caravan-like structures made of wood (Ossalur means travel, I just tweaked the word; hurti means frotress).
Maethir means something like "Wise Elder". I have tweaked the draconic words Maekirx (leader) and Irthir (knowledge). They are like shamans or priests of the Tanarvraki.
On other stuff:
I need two different regions, one for the maztican dragonborn and other for the abeiran overlorld I'm planing to design. If possible, the region of the overlord with one city, or at least in a region that had decent population to get into slavery.
I don't want to ruin the Maztican flavor, but an overlord slaver its necessary to get the Abeiran fluff in the present Maztica. Nexal was my first candidate, but after a second thought I discarted it. I like the Jagre and orcs enemies there, and also that would give the player more options than just "slay the dragon" adventure type.
I have also some ideas for a feathered dragonborn variant related to Qotal known as the Qotaru (kin of Qotal). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Feb 2019 19:55:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 00:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I feel that the spirits of Anchorome are more akin to Primal Spirits than to primordials. As for the mirage dragons, they are from Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons.
On other stuff:
I need two different regions, one for the maztican dragonborn and other for the abeiran overlorld I'm planing to design. If possible, the region of the overlord with one city, or at least in a region that had decent population to get into slavery.
I don't want to ruin the Maztican flavor, but an overlord slaver its necessary to get the Abeiran fluff in the present Maztica. Nexal was my first candidate, but after a second thought I discarted it. I like the Jagre and orcs enemies there, and also that would give the player more options than just "slay the dragon" adventure type.
I have also some ideas for a feathered dragonborn variant related to Qotal known as the Qotaru (kin of Qotal).
Yeah, I agree, the difference between Primal Spirits and Primordials is vague, especially when you consider things like Kezef and Dendar as Primordials. Some of the Mighty Spirits of Anchorome fit better as primal spirits. Some fit better as Primordials (Sho'tokunungwa is a rain/sky being, Sun Father, Summer (miochin), Winter (Shakak) ). I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the "Dawn Titans" were actually primal spirits, or if Abeir isn't full of such beings.
On where to put different interloping dragonborn, I agree, I wouldn't want to put them where they change the flavor of what was developed. So, I'd stick to maybe where things weren't heavily developed. If a dragon overlord were to look for slaves, the dog men (which are not bestial... that's a term for a "lesser" breed of human in Maztica) were constantly being raided for slaves/sacrifice pre-spellplague. It might be interesting if there were a dragon overlord with attendant dragonborn slaves who moved into the mountains north of Huacli which border the desert the dog men live in. Picturing a blue or brown dragon. A green dragon down in the jungles of Far Payit would also make some sense. If these were NOT huge endeavours, but rather more like single cities established with draconic leaders, that would make sense.
On the "good" dragonborn, I'm thinking the two separate groups being distinctly separate and having been from the area already and well established in Abeir. Maybe they love their draconic rulers. I'm thinking one group has Amber, "woodling" and Faerie Dragons and is in a forest northerly and middle of Anchorome. These would be the dragonborn that are just entirely different, with skin like bark, horns like sticks, etc...
The other group has Mirage dragons, Faerie dragons, couatl, and the plumed dragonborn, and these individuals follow the "feathered serpent". I will note in this instance, none of these dragons are extremely big. Mirage dragons are the largest at size large. It might be interesting if these dragonborn are "recently transformed" beings, who maybe chose to embrace Qotal (as the humans of Unther embraced Bahamut). So, maybe just like Zaltec converted humans into orcs, jagres, and trolls, maybe Qotal got a group of humans to change themselves into "plumed dragonborn". This might work well in Far Payit, where there's jungle and cultures that mainly revered Qotal over Zaltec. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 06:37:04
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| Just as a FYI, you guys inspired me to start up on Anchorome again. If you don’t mind, I’m going to use these plumed Dragonborn in Fort Flame and give them a bit of a Native American feel. Would it make sense to have them defend FF from dragon incursions when Anchorome was on Abeir? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 07:19:33
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| Yes, I guess that if they consider Fort Flame as their home and are welcomed there, they will fight to protect their new home. After all, for dragonborn a clan isn't made up solely by blood relationships. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 22:49:04
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It would depend on what you're doing with Fort Flame and HOW these Plumed Dragonborn show up. Personally, I've made Fort Flame into a combination evacuation point for a lot of other Torilian cultures. Thayan humans settle Fort Flame prior to the spellplague and open an enclave there to support the Flaming Fist. In return these Thayan humans gain land where they can expand outside of their homeland that's rife with civil war. They then go on to settle in Esh Alakar in the Pasocada Basin. Eventually they move down to Lopango. During this time, they also bring their slaves and soldiers with them (orcs, goblins, gnolls, centaurs). Then after the spellplague, humans from the Chultan peninsula (Samarach, Thindol, Tashluta) evacuate via portal from other red wizard enclaves to Fort Flame (also known as Balduran Bay Enclave). Then when New Waterdeep and Trythosford and the other Faerunian colonies fail to Maztican native encroachment, their survivors flee to Balduran Bay. So, you have a melting pot of various humans from all over, a small population of "monster" races, and encroaching Poscadari elves.
So, what if these Plumed Dragonborn are Chultan refugees who worshipped Ubtao/Qotal and basically turned themselves INTO the plumed dragonborn much like the Bahamut followers in Unther? If these Plumed Dragonborn are a much more serpentine "dragonborn" (i.e. taller, less stocky... obviously feathered). This gives us an origin. It may even be that some human wizards embrace the change because it gives them the necessary spark to use magic while on this strange new world. Not saying its the greatest idea, but lets flesh it out more. Maybe later these dragonborn/human converts form a nation of their own to the west of Fort Flame. Maybe they travel down into the more traditional lands of Qotal (like Far Payit).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 23:40:04
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| You know what... one of the things I'd been debating in particular with Balduran Bay / Fort Flame area was whether they would accept Zulkirate rulership with so many non-Mulan peoples there. I'm kind of thinking that perhaps the idea of making this still an "enclave" but not a tharch might be a good idea. It may have been a key enclave, in that it held portals between the Faerunians in what was the transferred areas of the Shaar and also to the tharch down in Lopango. It still pretty much fits the history I'd developed, which was the main reason for it... to have Thay have had an enclave in Anchorome prior to the spellplague that Thayan refugees may have flocked to in the promise of a new homeland with acreage for the taking. But making it more cosmopolitan I think fits it better without stripping its original idea. Having the Flaming Fist still running things, but maybe with mercenary red wizards working with them. But in this midst, powerful mages from Samarach (Meleghost Zoaster the High Phantasmage) and Tashluta (the Farseer) might be heading up their own schools of magic, possibly even with Waterdhavian refugees heading up another group of mages from New Waterdeep and Trythosford. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dragon Prince/Abeir/Magic&Conflict
