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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 16:52:31
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Inspired by George's article on the Zulkirate, I decided to have a re-read of FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizard.
So far I cant find explict how they differ- its implied they practice a sole school (except for the ones they say dont) just like the specialists that would come in in 2nd Edition.
Anyone ideas how it worked? or if I have just missed it in my version.
Also any ideas how they were supposed to be better prior to the time of troubles and the loss of their power giving article (FRA)- if they are only able to use the few spells from that one school, it does not seem to be more powerful.
Thanks
Gareth
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 18:05:11
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The first edition version implied a school "specialty" not necessarily that the person couldn't cast spells from other schools (though admittedly, one can read Dreams of the Red Wizards . This matched up with the concept of school specialization in 2nd edition. However, there was also the concept mentioned of some red wizards being "special" with multiple schools. So, when 2nd edition came out there ended up being two different versions of the "red wizard" kit. The first was in Spellbound and had a character "double specializing" in a single school of magic. The wizards and rogues of the realms produced a "red wizard" kit that had mages that actually specialized in two schools. Personally, I preferred that second option to be AVAILABLE, and with those who chose the path of becoming a Zulkir simply focusing doubly on a single school. I actually viewed Thay as being filled with wizards who weren't focused to any single school of magic. There wasn't this "I'm the loyal subject of my Zulkir" thing going on, because red wizards might be beholden to more than a single school. Someone however being specialized in 4 schools as Homen supposedly did, would take special "choices" (later this would be via feat in 3rd edition). In this idea of "multiple school specialization" I actually saw there being certain trends, such as there being a lot of diviner/abjurers, abjurer/evokers, necromancer/conjurers, enchanter/illusionists, transmuter/evokers, diviner/evokers, abjurer/conjurers, necromancer/evokers, AND with the 3rd edition advent that specialists don't have a specific opposition school if they'd continued the trend of multi-specialists it would have been really interesting in my view.
From the Dreams of the Red Wizards version of circle
If the wizard is a member of more than one school, his spellcasting ability can only be helped for those spells whose school the Circle#146;s apprentices are part of. It is possible to set up more than one Circle to help one wizard, if they are needed.
Homen Odesseiron, Tharchion of Surthay
7th level magic-user, four schools of magic: Necromancy, Conjuration/ Summonings, Abjuration, Invocation/ Evocation,
Red Wizard of Thay, NE, Myrkul, Human Male
As Tharchion of Surthay, Homen is the guardian of the North. He managed to rack up an enviable reputation by being a student of four different (though not antithetical) schools of magic, but the time it took to become proficient in four schools finally took its toll on him and he retired from active magic use, though he keeps in practice and uses his spells occasionally.
then in Spellbound, they changed Homen from a "4 school specialist" study-aholic into a warrior mage dual classing into fighter
Tharchion Homen Odesseiron (Surthay) (LE hm Inv7/F12)
and they continued this trend for 3rd edition
Tharchion Homen Odesseiron (LE male human Evo6/Red1/Ftr12)
From Wizards and Rogues of the Realms
There are those who say all Red Wizards are specialists. In truth, all Red Wizards can be dual specialists; only zulkirs adhere to one school, giving up the second when they achieve that rank. When a DM creates a Red Wizard, he can select two schools of magic to specialize in. The only restriction to this choice is that neither of the selected schools can be an opposition school of the other. So a Red Wizard could be an abjurer/diviner, but not an abjurer/illusionist or an abjurer/transmuter. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 18:34:01
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Regarding the Circle ability as well, it changed pretty drastically between editions
In 1st edition, the spellcasters in the circle could empower the circle recipient by simply creating a circle. This increased said recipient's caster level AND the number of spells he could memorize at each level. Given the time required to memorize extra spells in 1st edition (15 minutes per spell level, so an 8th level spell took 2 hours) this meant that the extra spell gains weren't as much of a big deal. However, some of us wrote up spells that would "quickly rememorize spells cast that day at 1 minute per spell" such that a red wizard might be able to step into the circle and get back several combat spells quickly that they had cast to try to show the capabilities of red wizards if they worked together and make the circle an effective "battlefield" spell that would make good use of apprentices.
In 2nd edition, the circle spell got rid of the increased caster level but they kept the increased number of spells memorized. This really turned the spell from a battlefield spell into a spell used at home.
well, folks just got here, will come back. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 06:24:29
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| I've always used Circle to increase caster level and spell level pool, they only last 24 hours so it makes memorizing spells pretty pointless. Works great when you gather several circles to make a rapid flying city or even build the city in the first place, add multiple lower level spells, that drain the pooled spells but everyone can use the combination spells. |
Thay Red |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 20:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
I've always used Circle to increase caster level and spell level pool, they only last 24 hours so it makes memorizing spells pretty pointless. Works great when you gather several circles to make a rapid flying city or even build the city in the first place, add multiple lower level spells, that drain the pooled spells but everyone can use the combination spells.
There's so much messed up in this that I can't even make head or tails of what edition of the game you're talking about. I'm assuming you're talking 3.5 rules, but increasing caster level in that edition isn't going to have you creating flying cities. Circle doesn't affect epic spells, and its spellcraft skill that affects spells in that edition, not spellcaster level. Also, while in previous editions, You might have been able to use multiple circles (for different mechanics mind you), in 3.5, you can't. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 17:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper
I've always used Circle to increase caster level and spell level pool, they only last 24 hours so it makes memorizing spells pretty pointless. Works great when you gather several circles to make a rapid flying city or even build the city in the first place, add multiple lower level spells, that drain the pooled spells but everyone can use the combination spells.
There's so much messed up in this that I can't even make head or tails of what edition of the game you're talking about. I'm assuming you're talking 3.5 rules, but increasing caster level in that edition isn't going to have you creating flying cities. Circle doesn't affect epic spells, and its spellcraft skill that affects spells in that edition, not spellcaster level. Also, while in previous editions, You might have been able to use multiple circles (for different mechanics mind you), in 3.5, you can't.
Appears someone doesn't know their Apportation Magic. |
Thay Red |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2018 : 19:20:09
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Apportation magic appeared all of once, in Dragon 220.
You've got this weird tendency to mash editions together so nobody knows what you're referring to. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2018 : 04:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Apportation magic appeared all of once, in Dragon 220.
You've got this weird tendency to mash editions together so nobody knows what you're referring to.
Also, the spells under the College of Apportation don't actually let you do that. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2018 : 05:56:48
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Apportation is nothing but an alternate term for teleportation (in several other roleplaying games). Just like Apparation in Harry Potter... The article in Dragon (this was way back in my day, kudos for making me feel young again) generalized it a bit further to mean the magic of movement. It was an alright article but it had game-breaker magic like tranpose and transfuse that were banned by the time the Wizard's Spell Compendium was published. Serpent kingdoms kind of resurrected the ideas of those spells years later.
The spell he is talking about is "skycastle," the one 9th level spell from that article. Still, you clearly have not actually read through the spell Thraskir. It states very plainly that the movement of a skycastle is both relatively slow (MV 30) and clumsy (MC E) so your idea of rapid movement would be out. More importantly, however, there is no difference if this spell is cast by an 18th level mage or a 50th level mage so using Thayan circle magic would have no effect at all in the casting. Remember that Thayan circles do not allow you to cast higher level spells, they just increase the level of the spellcaster in terms of figuring power because there are many spells that take the caster level into account. Skycastle is not one of these spells. Moreover, unless I'm very much mistaken, there has never been any rule that allows you to have multiple Thayan circles working on a casting in concert - this would amount to one big circle, not several medium circles. The only such magic known would be elven high magic, and still, the multiple circles combine into one there.
Important lesson to take from this? Thayan circle does not allow 18 1st level mages to cast a 9th level spell together. They could cast a big magic missile though.
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2018 : 19:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The spell he is talking about is "skycastle," the one 9th level spell from that article. Still, you clearly have not actually read through the spell Thraskir. It states very plainly that the movement of a skycastle is both relatively slow (MV 30) and clumsy (MC E) so your idea of rapid movement would be out.
Skycastle also, importantly, only really works on castles. And it takes approximately a year to prepare the proper components. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2018 : 14:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Apportation is nothing but an alternate term for teleportation (in several other roleplaying games). Just like Apparation in Harry Potter... The article in Dragon (this was way back in my day, kudos for making me feel young again) generalized it a bit further to mean the magic of movement. It was an alright article but it had game-breaker magic like tranpose and transfuse that were banned by the time the Wizard's Spell Compendium was published. Serpent kingdoms kind of resurrected the ideas of those spells years later.
The spell he is talking about is "skycastle," the one 9th level spell from that article. Still, you clearly have not actually read through the spell Thraskir. It states very plainly that the movement of a skycastle is both relatively slow (MV 30) and clumsy (MC E) so your idea of rapid movement would be out. More importantly, however, there is no difference if this spell is cast by an 18th level mage or a 50th level mage so using Thayan circle magic would have no effect at all in the casting. Remember that Thayan circles do not allow you to cast higher level spells, they just increase the level of the spellcaster in terms of figuring power because there are many spells that take the caster level into account. Skycastle is not one of these spells. Moreover, unless I'm very much mistaken, there has never been any rule that allows you to have multiple Thayan circles working on a casting in concert - this would amount to one big circle, not several medium circles. The only such magic known would be elven high magic, and still, the multiple circles combine into one there.
Important lesson to take from this? Thayan circle does not allow 18 1st level mages to cast a 9th level spell together. They could cast a big magic missile though.
Just a minor aside, because I agree with everything you just said. However, there was ONE edition of the game where someone could work with multiple circles at once. The first edition version from Spellbound allowed a red wizard to work with spellcasters making a circle from other schools of magic. It basically said
If the wizard is a member of more than one school, his spellcasting ability can only be helped for those spells whose school the Circle#146;s apprentices are part of. It is possible to set up more than one Circle to help one wizard, if they are needed.
So, that would somewhat translate to the idea of red wizards being "focused" in multiple schools of magic (though specialization itself didn't come out until 2nd edition). Note here that I'm very careful to say focused. I'd actually like to very much consider the ideas of returning to the idea of many red wizards being part of multiple schools of maigc. Kind of how I was also discussing the idea in another thread of there being magic universities with "houses" that red wizards may have fallen into and developed relationships with, this might also lead individuals to "focus" on multiple schools somehow (maybe one school is their primary, but they pick up some abilities that specialists of another school might like... or maybe there are some alternate schools of magic that might be accepted "as part of" other schools... such as the war mage from Xanather's Guide possibly being accepted in both evocation OR abjuration). Along these lines, one of the things I developed for 5e in my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy was the feats "secondary arcane tradition" and "secondary arcane tradition mastery"... along with an option to permanently trade in hit dice (as in the 5e "auto heal") for feats.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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1st Edition Red Wizards
