| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Harvest
Acolyte
9 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 22:54:52
|
Just about every book I've read has presented most humans as pushovers.
Weaker mages, weaker warriors, there are some notable exceptions but overall it feels like we shouldn't be on top in so many places.
What am I not getting?
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 23:18:16
|
Probably the fact that ecological and economic dominance has little to do with individual prowess.
Rats and cockroaches exist in teeming hordes, show no signs of losing their ecological niches and will far outlive human civilisation. Yet dinosaurs, mammoths and saber-toothed tigers are all consigned to the dustbin of paleontology. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 16 Aug 2018 23:19:00 |
 |
|
|
Harvest
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2018 : 23:50:26
|
| Ok, but if we're the swarm, what are the Orcs? |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 00:21:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Harvest
Ok, but if we're the swarm, what are the Orcs?
Less capable of force-multiplying organisational strategies. Compare ants with many other insects. Yet that is not all. Ants are good at cooperation, but they lack ambition, drive, greed and inventiveness.
Humans are amazingly fecund, warlike and adaptable, but they also have a very successful combination of altruism and greed, which allows them to cooperate effectively even while they think they are competing against each other. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Harvest
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 05:48:20
|
| Know any books that show this? Preferably against Dwarves or Elves? |
|
|
|
Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 06:53:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Harvest
Know any books that show this? Preferably against Dwarves or Elves?
I think that Elminster in Mythdrannor is showcasing this. Not as a war, but there are lot of talks about this. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 08:28:38
|
Realmslore has sometimes explored the theme of great changes being something which takes generations to achieve ... dragons are truly superior but their great lifespans make them unable to adapt at the same pace as shorter-lived races ... elves can accomplish in "only" a few thousand years or centuries what dragons cannot ... humans can accomplish in mere decades what elves cannot.
So basically humans are rapidly adaptable. Driven to achieve things - sometimes great things, building thriving cities and empires, earning fame and glory, becoming archmages, whatever - while also casually flowing along with the momentum of everything else that humans are changing - all at a "frantic" pace that the other races simply can't compete against. Elves and dwarves and dragons are basically coasting off the accomplishments of their forerunners in ancient history, humans are always forging forward and making new history.
Orcs might breed faster than humans but they aren't as often able to dream large dreams which can change the world. Most humans are quite ordinary but enough of them are extraordinary to shape the future ... while an orc capable of thinking beyond immediate gains and glories (who is also strong and smart and quick enough to prevail) is an anomaly seen only a few times across the histories of the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 08:50:35
|
quote:
Orcs might breed faster than humans but they aren't as often able to dream large dreams which can change the world. Most humans are quite ordinary but enough of them are extraordinary to shape the future ... while an orc capable of thinking beyond immediate gains and glories (who is also strong and smart and quick enough to prevail) is an anomaly seen only a few times across the histories of the Realms.
I think it is not so much a matter of dreams as of overcoming tribalism and managing to work together with other groups. Doing so intelligently is where civilization is born. The original Faerunian Orc was handicapped by a Xenocidal pantheon, a cultural love interest with wanton destruction, and being a late arrival to the Realms with low technological and magic levels.
***Cue Obould Many-Arrows and the new, friendly Orc. In the end they may take over everything.***
|
What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
Edited by - Misereor on 17 Aug 2018 08:51:13 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 09:06:40
|
To a degree, the conceit that it is humans that fit in the Goldilocks Mean of being just fecund enough, just adaptable enough, just vicious enough, just altruistic enough and so forth, is a literary device designed to tell stories about a humanocentric world. It is not inherently implausible for that, as long as no existing race is shown to be even more suitable in the role of adaptive altruistic-greedy, fecund-but-not-too-fecund, golden mean race.
It is a truism of the Realms that the only reason humans rule the world is because the orcs and goblinoids can't stop fighting themselves and others long enough to develop effective societies powered by the conflict between altruism and greed. If orcs ever truly become civilised, humanity will inevitably be bred out of existence in a few centuries. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 17 Aug 2018 09:08:41 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 10:49:11
|
Halflings keep insisting that they're the "next" great race of the Realms, lol. They do make some good cheese but I doubt anyone actually accepts their claims on world domination very seriously.
I note the the most powerful and influential races in every era of Realms history are those who master magic. Not divine magics granted by higher powers ... even kobolds have access to spells from priests and shamans and deities ... I mean real magic derived from delving into the truly arcane. A race without wizards or sorcerers in the Realms is a race without much lasting consequence in shaping the fate of the Realms. Dwarves and orcs might be stubborn survivors but they will never be masters of the world. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Aug 2018 10:56:00 |
|
|
|
moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 16:32:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Halflings keep insisting that they're the "next" great race of the Realms, lol.
You doubt this? |
|
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 18:42:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Halflings keep insisting that they're the "next" great race of the Realms, lol. They do make some good cheese but I doubt anyone actually accepts their claims on world domination very seriously.
I note the the most powerful and influential races in every era of Realms history are those who master magic. Not divine magics granted by higher powers ... even kobolds have access to spells from priests and shamans and deities ... I mean real magic derived from delving into the truly arcane. A race without wizards or sorcerers in the Realms is a race without much lasting consequence in shaping the fate of the Realms. Dwarves and orcs might be stubborn survivors but they will never be masters of the world.
By your criteria, I would be more likely to bet on gnomes. They are inherently cooperative, they can work with magic, and they have the ability to invent and enhance new technology. Happily, they would much rather have a good time than do some conquering.
Of course, the shame associated with losing to a bunch of gnomes would be tremendous. Any army that survived being defeated by gnomes would have to change their names and move to another dimension. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 23:48:01
|
| Humans are so effective primarily because their females look so exceptional in a chainmail/leather/silk bikini. Gnome, dwarf, halfling, half-orc, and dragonborn females do NOT look nearly as good. Surface elves almost beat the humans out, except that they have a reputation for not being as slutty. You will note though that the subterannean elves, who don't suffer from such a reputation, dominate in their environment. Now, some may say I'm being facetious here, but I'm just looking at the empirical data.... longingly.. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Coronoides
Acolyte
Australia
1 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 00:01:12
|
| Founder effect. According to the Grand History of the Realms humans have been there since the very begining. They lived alongside the Creator Races week before the elves, dwarves, and giants arrived. This gave them a head start in building up thier population and inhabiting large areas of land. |
Need to convert races to D&D 5e?Mathematical analysis of canon races and design rules: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232813/The-Tinkers-Toolkit |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 00:22:05
|
| Because the goddamn outbreed everything. Humans are the memetic sex gods of D&D, to the extent that demons of lust and devils of BDSM look like humans with wings. |
|
|
|
Harvest
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 01:50:38
|
| Eh, I'm pretty sure dragons would breed with rocks if the mood struct them. |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 01:53:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
I think that Elminster in Mythdrannor is showcasing this. Not as a war, but there are lot of talks about this.
Specifically, Eltargrim plainly expressed his main reason: the elves have a choice of leading humans where they want, or being walked over a little latter.
quote:
Originally posted by Coronoides
They lived alongside the Creator Races week before the elves, dwarves, and giants arrived. This gave them a head start in building up thier population and inhabiting large areas of land.
And were mostly dismissed as inconsequential. The time of humans came only after dragons, elves, giants and dwarves rolled over the place and "burned out" themselves.
Then it turned out that not only humans succeed others in whatever scenario, but while a human society can rot even faster, it's either succeeded by yet another human realm determined to stave off this particular sort of rot or scatters only to be re-colonized later. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 07:45:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Probably the fact that ecological and economic dominance has little to do with individual prowess.
Rats and cockroaches exist in teeming hordes, show no signs of losing their ecological niches and will far outlive human civilisation. Yet dinosaurs, mammoths and saber-toothed tigers are all consigned to the dustbin of paleontology.
Alberta is Rat free and mostly roach free too.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/alberta/cms/binary/7124345.jpg?size=640x420 |
Thay Red |
|
|
|
Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
|
|
Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 06:39:43
|
Fast breeding and Wizards.
|
Thay Red |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 13:59:07
|
| Fastest-breeding wizards! I don't think any other magic-using Realms species has a shorter lifespan. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 18:19:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Harvest
Eh, I'm pretty sure dragons would breed with rocks if the mood struct them.
The half-amethyst dragon thomil gargoyle rogue/totemist I heard of once would agree.
BTW, interesting build for an NPC with +12 str, +14 con, +4 dex, -2 int, -2 char and total of +10 natural armor, wearing a +2 chain shirt and using an +2 animated heavy shield, with a lowly ring of protection +1, and a simple belt that gave +2 to str, dex, and con, making him have a dex of 18, con of 32, str of 28, a wis of 12, an int of 10 and a char of 10 and having an AC of 35. With the Thomil's ability to appear as a pile of boulders, he made an even more innocuous gargoyle guardian, and the gargoyle's +8 bonus to hide checks when in an area of boulders was sweet for an opening round of sneak attacks with a creature whose full attack was 4 natural attacks (2 claws, bite, and gore)... plus using displacer mantle totem chakra bind added 2 tentacle attacks and a bonus to hide... so attack and immediately flee by flying.... hide again once far enough away... and Sphinx Claws hand chakra bind allows for charging and full attacking... and Urskan Greaves feet chakra bind adds bonus damage for each attack on a charge.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 18:47:09
|
Well, most Forgotten Realms books are set in the ''realms present'' of after 1300 DR or so, and yes humans are dominant in that time frame. But that was not always the case in the whole history of Toril. Dragons, giants, elves and dwarves all had their centuries of dominance.
And there are plenty of strong, powerful humans...many you just need to read more books? |
|
|
|
BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 19:09:30
|
An elf takes about a century to learn what a human learns in sixteen to twenty-odd years.
A young human is walking and talking while an elf is still in leaf-diapers.
He's grown to adulthood and cleared the woods and planted a farm, married and has raised another crop of humans while that juvenile elf is frolicking in the glades.
Dwarves learn and mature faster than elves do, but still take a few decades to reach the skill and prowess of young adult human.
Ditto gnomes.
Humans replacement and growth far outstrip these demihuman races.
|
Ewan Cummins |
Edited by - BadLuckBugbear on 19 Aug 2018 19:20:38 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Why are humans so dominant?
