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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  08:53:28  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Several NPCs in my campaign, set for the moment in Unthalass, have an innate ability to cast Animate Dead once or more per day and/or are likely to cast it as a spell daily. Two of them are Ak'Chazar rakshasa (Animate Dead 3/day at 20th lvl; control pool 80 HD) and the third is Gula bit Kiqiluttu (Animate Dead as spell, 19th CL arcane, 14th CL divine; control pool 246 HD; doubled to 492 HD for Necklace of Undead Mastery).

All three maintain a position in mortal society that makes it impractical to surround themselves with rotting corpses strutting around. Nevertheless, it's a waste of resources not to be able to call upon a defence force of unintelligent undead if the need should arise.

I want each of them to have a preference in the article of unintelligent undead that serves to distinguish them from each other.

Gula will favour expertly embalmed corpses raised as zombies, her extensive knowledge of thanatology serving to make more effective undead (equivalent in D&D terms to Corpsecrafter and similar Feats). She may also inscribe cuneiform glyphs on the skin of such undead, to give them special abilities. She'll store them in one or more secret rooms when not in use, where they'll have arms available.

Her apprentice, Ashlultum, is also an expert mortician and her particular specialization is skeletons. She has a way of removing the flesh from the bones and immersing the result so that the bones are stronger and move with preternatural agility and speed. I'd welcome any suggestions for the aesthetic of skeletons so treated, i.e. if they take on a copper tone or some other superficial point of apperance. Also, I'd like suggestions on how they could best be 'packed' into a a small area so that they take up as little space as possible, but are still able to 'unpack' quickly to respond to threats, when given the command.

Abhisyanta, one of the Ak'Chazar rakshasa, has taken on the identity of a Gala priest at the Mortuary Temple just outside the city walls of Unthalass. This gives him access to an unending stream of fresh (and not so fresh) corpses, as well as providing him with an environment where the aroma of eau de mort is unremarkable. I imagine that he'll be an enthusiastic experimenter with various funerary practises and forms of undeath.

Ghanashyam, the other Ak'Chazar rakshasa, however, is living as a wealthy merchant of Durpari ancestry. He enjoys personal comforts and beautiful surroundings. I don't think mere skeletons and zombies would suit his tastefully appointed villa in a nice neighbourhood of Unthalass.

Unlike Gula, her apprentices or Abhisyanta, Ghanashyam is not an expert embalmer or mortician. They all have what in D&D terms would be Feats and/or class abilities to enhance their preparation of bodies and creation of corporeal undead, but Ghanashyam has no interest in studying such things. He has a tremendously powerful innate connection to death and necromancy, allowing him to create and control undead better than most necromancers ever learn, but he'd prefer that other people perform the actual labour involved with procuring and preparing dead bodies.

I'm looking for ideas on how he'd use his Animate Dead ability to control 80 HD of something that doesn't smell and, ideally, is stylish and classy. One thing I've been contemplating are skeletal cats, perhaps intermixed with the skeletons of some other, larger predatory animals, but I'd welcome other suggestions.

How to use Ghanashyam's Animate Dead ability without being crass?

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Edited by - Icelander on 23 Jul 2018 12:13:24

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  11:20:23  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Disguise his undead as trophies, or as a scholastic exhibition for sages and students to marvel at? Rakshasa nobles tend to be learned scholars, so disguising a hydra skeleton as a natural/magical wildlife exhibit, complete with plaque and handwritten notes and sketches, seems to be right up their alley.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  11:58:45  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Disguise his undead as trophies, or as a scholastic exhibition for sages and students to marvel at? Rakshasa nobles tend to be learned scholars, so disguising a hydra skeleton as a natural/magical wildlife exhibit, complete with plaque and handwritten notes and sketches, seems to be right up their alley.


Good, good. Excellent idea.

What kind of exhibits do you think he should have?

80 HD worth of them, to be exact?

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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
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Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  12:36:45  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was going to jokingly suggest storing skeletons in barrels as per Diablo II, but I prefer LordofBones' suggestion. :P

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  13:28:52  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Disguise his undead as trophies, or as a scholastic exhibition for sages and students to marvel at? Rakshasa nobles tend to be learned scholars, so disguising a hydra skeleton as a natural/magical wildlife exhibit, complete with plaque and handwritten notes and sketches, seems to be right up their alley.


Good, good. Excellent idea.

What kind of exhibits do you think he should have?

80 HD worth of them, to be exact?



Hydras are popular among arcane necromancers. I mean, it would depend on what theme he's going for, but for an exotic creature/magical beast/marshlands theme, a hydra would be pretty good as the main attraction.

I'd suggest looking at Pathfinder templates, like the fast/burning/bloody skeleton template; and see if your rakshasa is built for Uttercold Assault shenanigans too.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  14:04:12  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

I was going to jokingly suggest storing skeletons in barrels as per Diablo II, but I prefer LordofBones' suggestion. :P


Well, Ashlultum's skeletons still need to be stored somewhere at Karallu ('Beatitude, bliss or jewel'), the festhall/opium den that serves as the primary abode of her teacher in necromantic ways, Gula bit Kiqiluttu. The skeletons are kept for emergency defence and therefore need to be quickly accessible, but until then, should be storable discreetly out of sight.

I've decided that Ashlultum's method of preparing the bodies not only removes all flesh from fairly new skeletons, but also allows an unguent made with honey and cinnamon to seep into the bones. This makes them golden-brown, sweet-smelling and well protected from microbes and fungi. Vague suggestions of more mystical ingredients also serve as an explanation for how her skeletons are far stronger, faster and more agile than the basic undead created by other necromancers.

In fact, at least in the creation of her special skeletons, Ashlultum has a defter hand than even her mistress, Gula. Granted, unlike Gula, Ashlultum has no ability to create ghouls, ghasts, skeletal warriors, juju zombies, dread warriors, shadows, spectres, mohrgs or devourers, but when it comes to a fine skeleton, with perfect articulation and predatory grace, Ashlultum is an inspired artist.

Being much less powerful than her mistress, Ashlultum can only control a pool of 56 HD of undead created by her Animate Dead spells, but that's still a lot of human-scale skeletons.

I had thought that perhaps she and Gula could make some use of them while they are not required as guards. Perhaps they could be used as furniture and decorations inside the shrine to Tiamat (as the Undying Queen), assuming positions as parts of intricately joined skeletal structures to simulate a throne, bony decorations on the walls and ceiling and maybe a five-headed skeletal dragon, especially if the heads of the composite dragon are created from the animated remains of crocodiles or other reptilian monsters.

I'm torn whether it would be appropriate to use skeletons for chairs and desks, as well. On one hand, it's probably disrespectful, on the other, it's very convenient.

Any skeletons that weren't used for decoration inside the (fairly small) shrine and adjoining embalming room would have to be found another hiding place. I can absolutely imagine using closets, chests, barrels or other containers to store them around the establishment, as easily accessible extra guards that can be called to service by Ashlultum using her control of them (or by Gula and some of her senior people using spells or abilities to seize control of mindless undead).

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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Jul 2018 14:07:37
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  14:32:15  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Hydras are popular among arcane necromancers. I mean, it would depend on what theme he's going for, but for an exotic creature/magical beast/marshlands theme, a hydra would be pretty good as the main attraction.

Yes, a hydra and...

80 HD is a lot of carefully defleshed skeletons or taxidermied zombies.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'd suggest looking at Pathfinder templates, like the fast/burning/bloody skeleton template; and see if your rakshasa is built for Uttercold Assault shenanigans too.


I'm not actually using any form of D&D/Pathfinder/d20 system for the mechanics. I'm mostly just collecting data on undead types and variations that would exist in the Forgotten Realms, be appropriate for Unther and the Old Empires and within the powers of the NPCs, as described. When I mention a D&D term like classes, prestige classes, levels, etc., those are equivalents.

What I actually use is GURPS and I'm not required to emulate mechanical oddities of D&D. I do, however, want to maintain a general sense of certain magical accomplishments being more difficult to master than others and that a necromancer who has the power to do x ought to be able to learn y, as these are also setting features, not merely artifacts of D&D rules.

That being said, I'd absolutely use variant skeletons, like Pathfinder, but I'd link the creation of such with skills and abilities that a character has. Gula and Ashlultum, being learned necromancers who have mastered embalming and the preparation of bodies, would necessarily be able to create many different variations of basic undead, depending on the work they did to prepare the bodies, how they were slain, etc.

A 'natural' necromancer like Ghanashyam, however, who didn't have to study anything in order to have a deep connection with the forces that govern undeath, and actually has a distaste for the actual 'tendons-and-joints' work of preparing dead bodies for animation, is much less likely to have the ability to create variants of corporeal undead.

I imagine that he buys many of dead bodies from Gula (and that it is actually Ashlultum who prepares most of these) or receives them from his fellow Ak'Chazar rakshasa, Abhisyanta, who is much more interested in the work of dissecting, skinning, fleshing or embalming dead bodies.

In D&D terms, Ak'Chazar rakshasa do not have a lot of options for selecting extra Feats once they've taken what is required for their basic role. Of course, I'm not really bound by that, but it seems that if either of the two Ak'Chazar rakshasa have abilities beyond the norm for their species, Ghanashyam should probably have learned skills and abilities that suit his interests.

One PC, Abadas Hussein, is actually both of a fiery lineage (he may be the son of the Efreet Sultan) and an expert fire elementalist, with a tremendous weakness for Cold effects, so any antagonist who focused on Cold magic would be terrifying to him. That being said, Ghanasyam comes from a tropical jungle and now lives in a sub-tropical land where the winters are usually fairly warm and the summers are often 100+ °F. Without much in the way of conscious thought, I kind of assumed he'd hate the cold.

It is, however, a very cool idea to have him be a master of the cold and negative energy. It makes him ten times more terrifying to my PCs, as the ability to cast bursting balls of frost and lances of ice energy allows him to unknowingly target the biggest vulnerability Abadas has and bypass the usual protections against fire and lightning. Negative energy is just a neat add on to that, especially as Abadas's flames now burn with moonfire he gained from his divine patron, Nanna-Sin.

Awesome.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  15:29:13  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragons? Manticores? Dire animals? Bizarre magical beasts, like owlbears?
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  16:19:01  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Dragons? Manticores? Dire animals? Bizarre magical beasts, like owlbears?


I suspect that any kind of skeletal dragon decoration might be interpreted, in Unthalass, as an expression of support for the cult of Tiamat, or at the very least status as an ally of that cult.* Before 1358 DR that was fatal, in Unthalass, between 1358 DR and 1371 DR that might actually have been favourable and after the Mulhorandi occupation it is at the very least extremely hazardous, if not deadly.

Manticores are a good option.

I don't know what kind of dire animals would be present in the Old Empires. I know that there are sabertoothed tigers to the west, near the Chondathwood, but I don't know if there are any on the Shaar. Any fearsome creature from the Shaar would be an option, though, but I'm away from books, so I don't know what those would be, apart from lions, cheetah and such.

Owlbears I think of as living in more temperate climes, what with their thick furs and massive size, but some different breeds of exotic creatures more suitable to a climate resembling the Earth's Middle East would be ideal.

*Which Ghanashyam might be fairly called, through his relationship with Gula bit Kiqiluttu, but that doesn't mean he wants to advertise any connection to Tiamat, undeath, the Cult of the Dragon or any other contentious subject.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  19:08:15  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just throwing stray thoughts out there.

I suppose by your description that Ashlultum skeletons look, smell and feel like no regular skeleton (meaning that to the untrained eye they may very well be interesting pieces of woodcraft). I'm also going to assume that the den of iniquity has some rooms dedicated to more iniquity than other rooms, thus having skull furniture is no big deal. Last assumptions is that whatever they personally feel, all staff members are extremely tight lipped regarding anything concerning their work when outside.
Going with these three assumptions I can readily see, beside decoration for the shrine of Tiamat, some skeletons used as bulky tables in groups of 2 or 4 in the rooms that host the more illegal stuff (so nobody will care about the table legs ending with skuls) and some skeletons acting as cloth hangers or dummies inside wardrobes in the staff/servants quarters or even in the armory if there is one (should be fun when someone breaks into the armory before the guards only to find out that the armory has built in defenses already fully armed and armored).

The informations you gave us regarding Abhisyanta to me scream of someone that would gladly experiment with a corpse gatherer (3.5E Monster Manual II).

For Ghanashyam, if he(?) dislikes "dirtying his hands" with corporeal undeads than nothing prevents him from having a swarm of wraiths or shadows (or even ghosts or spectres of past victims) "haunting" his villa at his command. Going further with the exhibit idea of LordofBones he could have one of these two things (or both):
- (un)living statuary/reenactments of Unther's warfare or Gilgeam's own victories (thinking something like a statue of Gilgeam [maybe a golem?] battling the perfectly preserved corpse of a tojanida/hydra/wyvern [zombie/skeleton/whatever] or statues/zombies of Untheri soldiers battling statues/zombies of sahuagin or of other human soldiers or of monstrous humanoids from the Shaar [loxos, wemics, thri-kreens, centaurs]). These would be seen as perfectly acceptable during Gilgeam reign (maybe disguised with illusions) and right after that as mocking representations, so after the ToT he could have changed the scenes to show different winners (like the tojanida eating Gilgeam or the sahuagins routing the Untheric soldiers);
- since Unthalass is a port city, a big acquarium with all kind of unliving sharks and nastybads that no one will ever find out are unliving unless they notice they're never given food or unless they're thrown in the water with them. Also amphibious things like chuuls, tojanidas, sahuagins, dragon turtles, nasty giant crabs and the like can actually come out of the acquarium and kill as their master sees fit. Or this could even be a room with the undeads as "hunting/fishing trophies" that could be locked and flooded and then the "trophies" would come to life to devour the unfortunate guests.

Edited by - Demzer on 19 Jul 2018 19:10:56
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  21:22:53  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Just throwing stray thoughts out there.

I suppose by your description that Ashlultum skeletons look, smell and feel like no regular skeleton (meaning that to the untrained eye they may very well be interesting pieces of woodcraft).

Well, they look like human skeletons that have been expertly preserved and dyed honey-golden, which I suppose could look like wood carved to look like skeletons, to an unfamiliar or inattentive observer. Of course, the level of detail is such that it would like exceptionally fine woodworking, which would tend to invite closer scrutiny and, of course, anyone even vaguely familiar with either wood or bone will be able to tell the difference when inspecting it.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I'm also going to assume that the den of iniquity has some rooms dedicated to more iniquity than other rooms, thus having skull furniture is no big deal.

Skull furniture is, indeed, no big deal. The issue is how to conceal some twenty to thirty full-sized skeletons in an underground compound of ca 15,000 square feet, with about half of that open to the public and another 2,000-3,000 square feet open to favoured customers.

Staff quarters that are never seen by members of the public are surprisingly small, maybe only 1,000 square feet, with the rest taken up with the shrine (ca 500 sf), mortuary room (ca 400 sf), alchemical labs, studies, libraries and suites for Gula (400 + 300 + 300 sf) and her closest followers.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Last assumptions is that whatever they personally feel, all staff members are extremely tight lipped regarding anything concerning their work when outside.

Gula 'recruits' most of her staff from among children in desperate straits and gives them a new life, education, good food and, especially when it comes to girl children, genuine affection.

They are, for the most part, extremely loyal. They also do not spend much time outside, as their lives are mostly focused around Karallu or one of the five other similar establishments Gula runs around Unthalass.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Going with these three assumptions I can readily see, beside decoration for the shrine of Tiamat, some skeletons used as bulky tables in groups of 2 or 4 in the rooms that host the more illegal stuff (so nobody will care about the table legs ending with skuls) and some skeletons acting as cloth hangers or dummies inside wardrobes in the staff/servants quarters or even in the armory if there is one (should be fun when someone breaks into the armory before the guards only to find out that the armory has built in defenses already fully armed and armored).

As for 'illegal stuff', note that pretty much no government without the obscene wealth and power that modern governments command after the Industrial Revolution could successfully enforce laws designed to protect citizens from their own appetites.

Very few in history have ever tried, as the sheer scale of the task of attempting to enforce a ban on certain kinds of intoxicants or financial transactions in connection to sexual activity would have make most pre-modern people equate an attempt to do so with a desire to order the tide not to come in or to legislate an endless summer.

The concept of drugs and prostitution as something that could meaningfully be illegal is very modern and out of place in any country that isn't actual orders of magnitude wealthier, stabler and more bureaucratic than Unther.

So opium dens and brothels are not illegal in my campaigns, at least not anywhere except in very stable and awesomely rich theocracies. Anyone ruling a normal realm just doesn't have the resources to concern himself with how ordinary people try to amuse themselves.

Gula does sell illegal goods and services, but these are things like proscribed spell components, illegal religious paraphernalia, exotic poisons, procured corpses and unusual embalming services, etc.

Ironically, there would be nothing illegal under Untheri law about a brothel where slave children of both sexes are available for more or less any imaginable sexual act (in fact, such brothels are not uncommon) and for those with more specific tastes still, buying the slaves outright to kill during the festivities would also be completely legal.

Gula. however, does not offer such services and is notorious for her distaste of anyone who mistreats young street children, runaways or slaves of tender years. In fact, many of her people were rescued from such places or at a point in their lives where enforced service in one would have been the next step.

As for an armoury, that's a good point. I don't know if she needs one (or wants one). Under Gilgeam, it would have been extremely dangerous for her to be found with a stockpile of weapons, whereas any healer or scholar might need many of her magical and necromantic paraphernalia. Not to mention that necromancy wasn't (and isn't) specifically illegal in Unther, just certain acts that can be committed with it.

She does need a secure vault, however, which also seems like a good place to store spare undead.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

The informations you gave us regarding Abhisyanta to me scream of someone that would gladly experiment with a corpse gatherer (3.5E Monster Manual II).

I hadn't heard of them. I seem to have Monster Manual I, III, IV and V, but can't seem to find MM II.

Is it noted in MM II how Corpse Gatherers are created?

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

For Ghanashyam, if he(?) dislikes "dirtying his hands" with corporeal undeads than nothing prevents him from having a swarm of wraiths or shadows (or even ghosts or spectres of past victims) "haunting" his villa at his command.

Ghanashyam is male and he will indeed have a collection of incorporeal undead, created with his Create Greater Undead 1/day ability and controlled either with diplomacy, rewards and shared goals, or using his Rebuke Undead as a 20th lvl priest ability.

It's just that since he can also create 120 HD and control 80 HD of corpereal undead with his Animate Dead 3/day ability, it would be a waste of resources not to have 80 HD of useful zombies or skeletons at his disposal.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Going further with the exhibit idea of LordofBones he could have one of these two things (or both):

- (un)living statuary/reenactments of Unther's warfare or Gilgeam's own victories (thinking something like a statue of Gilgeam [maybe a golem?] battling the perfectly preserved corpse of a tojanida/hydra/wyvern [zombie/skeleton/whatever] or statues/zombies of Untheri soldiers battling statues/zombies of sahuagin or of other human soldiers or of monstrous humanoids from the Shaar [loxos, wemics, thri-kreens, centaurs]). These would be seen as perfectly acceptable during Gilgeam reign (maybe disguised with illusions) and right after that as mocking representations, so after the ToT he could have changed the scenes to show different winners (like the tojanida eating Gilgeam or the sahuagins routing the Untheric soldiers);

Can you make Outsiders like the Tojanida into corporeal undead with the Animate Dead spell?

The corpses of animals or monsters from the Shaar, the Methwood, the Black Ash Plain and the Uthangol Mountains would all be perfect.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

- since Unthalass is a port city, a big acquarium with all kind of unliving sharks and nastybads that no one will ever find out are unliving unless they notice they're never given food or unless they're thrown in the water with them. Also amphibious things like chuuls, tojanidas, sahuagins, dragon turtles, nasty giant crabs and the like can actually come out of the acquarium and kill as their master sees fit. Or this could even be a room with the undeads as "hunting/fishing trophies" that could be locked and flooded and then the "trophies" would come to life to devour the unfortunate guests.


This is a charming idea, but, of course, it only serves as a place to dispose of bodies (which is wasteful, really) or as a particularly elaborate trap. Aquatic undead don't actually provide any added security from terrestrial foes.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2018 :  21:51:33  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

I hadn't heard of them. I seem to have Monster Manual I, III, IV and V, but can't seem to find MM II.

Is it noted in MM II how Corpse Gatherers are created?



Corpse gatherers are unliving graveyards that hunger for more bodies, when "active" they are gargantuan 30 HD giants made of corpses, earth, mud and tombstones. They "happen" when a sentient undead (such as a vampire) is buried in unconsecrated ground.
That's why I said "experiment" and not "create", Abhisyanta could have started the process and could be feeding the monstrousity corpses while preparing to control it with his (other) powers.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Can you make Outsiders like the Tojanida into corporeal undead with the Animate Dead spell?



As long as it has a skeletal system you can make a skeleton (zombie) of any corporeal creature that's not already undead up to 20 HD (10 HD).

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

This is a charming idea, but, of course, it only serves as a place to dispose of bodies (which is wasteful, really) or as a particularly elaborate trap. Aquatic undead don't actually provide any added security from terrestrial foes.



That's why I noted that most amphibious things can come out of the aquarium.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  00:51:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to consider when animating dead that you're worried about how they'd "look"... what about creatures with an exoskeleton. For instance, possibly insect folk. For instance, maybe like a thri-kreen. One could even have such a being "decorated" by painting the body. Also, armor could be attached to such a body, or even the exoskeleton "dipped" in say molten gold, silver, etc... An umber hulk could be another... an ankheg...

Similarly, a drider or manscorpion/tlincalli whose skeletal torso is still attached to a abdomen and legs that are all decorated with metals could be interesting.


A Loxo (the elephant humanoids with two trunks) that's been expertly preserved and decorated in gold and jewels in the form of armor and with some kind of really big two handed club made from like a tree would be interesting. Even moreso if the trunks were made prehensile and had light bladed weapons attached.

A perfectly preserved rust monster could scare the living hell out of a party.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jul 2018 01:11:48
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  01:04:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another thing to consider is that possibly they may have some skeletons that they specifically "rebuild" their skeletons on a daily basis, but subject them to work of some sort that just heavily degrades their body daily. In newer editions of the game, these skeletons might get their bodies rebuilt via mending cantrips, etc... on a daily basis so that they can be re-animated. For instance, if they were used for mining in a dangerous place, there might be a follow up crew (something small but versatile like a crew of skeletal monkeys) who is sent in nightly to gather bones and bring them out to be mended. The next day, the skeletons are sent in to clear rubble and shore up what collapsed. Some may even be specifically sent down tunnels carrying explosives with full knowledge that they'll be destroyed, etc... only to be mended and put back to use the next day.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  01:35:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, another thing to consider is the use of the spell disguise undead (see magic of faerun). Granted, it only lasts 10 minutes per level, but IF one of the Rakshasa say had a magic item with this second level spell as an at will ability usable at a caster level of like 12th level, they might have a personal entourage that they have to spend a minute out of every 2 hours renewing what they look like. To make it even further, if the item casts say an "extended" version of the spell that doubles this time of use, then they could have these glamoured servants throughout say a typical visit with royalty, etc... without having to renew it.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  21:04:33  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have the undead bury themselves. Vertical graves that they can dig themselves out of.

Thay Red
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  21:59:59  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to throw out the rather "mundane" idea of taking a look at historical or semi-historical armors or outfits that can fully conceal the identity of the person (or skeleton) wearing it...

Here is an example of what I'm thinking:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Blackshahkulu-2-309108262

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  13:15:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I'm going to throw out the rather "mundane" idea of taking a look at historical or semi-historical armors or outfits that can fully conceal the identity of the person (or skeleton) wearing it...

Here is an example of what I'm thinking:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Blackshahkulu-2-309108262



That's actually a really good idea and totally fits the "feel" for the area.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Icelander
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  13:20:52  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I'm going to throw out the rather "mundane" idea of taking a look at historical or semi-historical armors or outfits that can fully conceal the identity of the person (or skeleton) wearing it...

Here is an example of what I'm thinking:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Blackshahkulu-2-309108262


That sounds like a good idea for corporeal undead worth expending some resources on.

I thought about armouring Ashlultum's skeletons, but came to the conclusion that 40-50 lbs. skeletons were quick because their limbs were extremely light for their strength. If you add some 30-50 lbs. of armour to them, some of it at the ends of their limbs, it's inevitably going to reduce their edge in speed somewhat.

For a skilled skeletal warrior, it might well be worthwhile to accept a small reduction in speed in return for good overall protection, but if you want to do it for all the scores of unskilled skeletons, it may not be enough of an advantage to justify spending thousands of gold pieces. After all, for the unskilled skeletons, speed is pretty much all they have, in terms of being able to stand toe to toe with anyone who knows self-defence.

There is also the concern that in an occupied city, armoured figures that aren't part of the garrison will be assumed to be rebels in defiance of the disarming orders. There are enough mercenaries with the Mulhorandi forces that someone wearing full-body mail or other armour would be challenged and required to state the name of his captain, his quarters and his assigned duties, and not simply attacked on sight, but anyone who didn't repond to the hail of a guard, patrol or inquisitive commander about town would quickly find themselves under arrest.

I'm sure both Gula and Ghanashyam armour such valuable undead as juju zombies, dread warriors or skeletal warriors, taking extra care to keep them put of sight of the Mulhorandi garrison.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  14:15:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I'm going to throw out the rather "mundane" idea of taking a look at historical or semi-historical armors or outfits that can fully conceal the identity of the person (or skeleton) wearing it...

Here is an example of what I'm thinking:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Blackshahkulu-2-309108262


That sounds like a good idea for corporeal undead worth expending some resources on.

I thought about armouring Ashlultum's skeletons, but came to the conclusion that 40-50 lbs. skeletons were quick because their limbs were extremely light for their strength. If you add some 30-50 lbs. of armour to them, some of it at the ends of their limbs, it's inevitably going to reduce their edge in speed somewhat.

For a skilled skeletal warrior, it might well be worthwhile to accept a small reduction in speed in return for good overall protection, but if you want to do it for all the scores of unskilled skeletons, it may not be enough of an advantage to justify spending thousands of gold pieces. After all, for the unskilled skeletons, speed is pretty much all they have, in terms of being able to stand toe to toe with anyone who knows self-defence.

There is also the concern that in an occupied city, armoured figures that aren't part of the garrison will be assumed to be rebels in defiance of the disarming orders. There are enough mercenaries with the Mulhorandi forces that someone wearing full-body mail or other armour would be challenged and required to state the name of his captain, his quarters and his assigned duties, and not simply attacked on sight, but anyone who didn't repond to the hail of a guard, patrol or inquisitive commander about town would quickly find themselves under arrest.

I'm sure both Gula and Ghanashyam armour such valuable undead as juju zombies, dread warriors or skeletal warriors, taking extra care to keep them put of sight of the Mulhorandi garrison.



Icelander, look at the picture of that "armor". He's basically talking about using something that I'd equate to simply nice silk or cotton clothes, gloves, boots, and a hood with a metal face mask to concel what's behind it. It wouldn't be heavy, nor necessarily expensive either. For a person who can animate dead easily, but who likes "style", I think this would be great. Combine this with the ideas I was talking of earlier with insect folk whose exoskeletons are maybe coated in a thin coating of something dense and cheap like lead, copper, brass, etc... or painted to be decorative.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  14:21:45  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, another thing to consider is the use of the spell disguise undead (see magic of faerun). Granted, it only lasts 10 minutes per level, but IF one of the Rakshasa say had a magic item with this second level spell as an at will ability usable at a caster level of like 12th level, they might have a personal entourage that they have to spend a minute out of every 2 hours renewing what they look like. To make it even further, if the item casts say an "extended" version of the spell that doubles this time of use, then they could have these glamoured servants throughout say a typical visit with royalty, etc... without having to renew it.


I think we may safely assume that Ghanashyam knows this spell and makes heavy use of it.

In D&D, it doesn't appear to be accessible for Dread Necromancers, but that's a mere mechanical oddity and not a setting feature that I'm bound to emulate. So I guess Gula and Ashlultum know it well enough as well.

I suppose Ashlultum had cast it on herself before greeting the PCs, which explains how difficult it was to recognise her as undead. Rasul (in his Akila guise) saw through her disguise, though, as she is a better mortician than actress or secret agent. After making his Will safe (in D&D terms, in GURPS his Observation and Body Language skills won Quick Contests against her Disguise and Acting skills), Nanna-Sin's favour allows Rasul to detect supernatural evil, including the negative energy that sustains undead.

Last session, Akila/Rasul identified Ashlultum as a form of intelligent corporeal undead, not much more powerful, in terms of negative energy, than a zombie or skeleton. He concludes that she likely has no special undead powers, but has observed that she is able to cast spells as she did in life, at least as far as cantrips and minor magics are concerned.

From the testimony of Netanel, a (lukewarm) Tiamat cultist who knows Gula through his sister (a much more sincere worshipper of Tiamat, albeit of the heretical Undying Queen stripe, a Serpent Guard and a secret member of the Cult of the Dragon), the PCs also know that Ashlultum is someone with enough of a connection to Gula to live at Karallu, but is not a part of the community of Tiamat cultists.

The PCs have concluded that Ashlultum is concerned with Gula's business interests and from her stiff, awkward way with people, believe her to be involved with her alchemical business rather than the festhalls. They also guess that she's her apprentice (or one of her apprentices) in necromancy.

Oh, and Netanel tells them he met Ashlultum less than five days ago and at that time is pretty certain she was alive. She ate, drank and he touched her arm, neck and face, playing his usual game of trying to fluster the socially awkward girl by flirting with her outrageously (it's not his fault, Netanel is a tiefling, his fiendish bloodline resulting from a brachina devil).

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Icelander
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  15:11:29  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Icelander, look at the picture of that "armor". He's basically talking about using something that I'd equate to simply nice silk or cotton clothes, gloves, boots, and a hood with a metal face mask to concel what's behind it. It wouldn't be heavy, nor necessarily expensive either. For a person who can animate dead easily, but who likes "style", I think this would be great.

It is great, of course.

A dead body is probably worth only a few gold pieces, even if you purchase it, as poor people are dying every day from malnutrition, disease and violent crime. Mortician work and embalming might be 10-100 gp, depending, with soaking in honey and cinnamon at the high end of that range.

To Ghanashyam, casting Animate Dead is free. To a necromancer, it's 25-50 gp per human corpse animated.

Total cost of a skeleton is about 5 gp (Ghanashyam animating normal skeleton) / 30 gp (necromancer animating normal skeleton) / 105 gp (Ashlultum's skeletons animated by Ghanashyam) / 130 gp (Ashlultum's skeletons animated by necromancer, inc. herself or Gula).

Total cost of a zombie is about 5 gp (Ghanashyam animating normal corpse) / 55 gp (necromancer animating normal corpse) / 50-100 gp (Embalmed corpse animated by Ghanashyam) / 65-200 gp (Embalmed corpse animated by necromancer, inc. Ashlultum or Gula).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Combine this with the ideas I was talking of earlier with insect folk whose exoskeletons are maybe coated in a thin coating of something dense and cheap like lead, copper, brass, etc... or painted to be decorative.


Yes, that's a very nice idea.

Note that lead, copper or brass aren't all that inexpensive in a pre-Industrial Revolution society, especially not one on a war footing. Lead is a strategic material, required for artillery and sling ammunition, in addition to a variety of building uses, both naval and land-based. Lead is at maybe three or four times common historical prices in Unther right now, which is not by any means out of reach for Gula or Ghanashyam, but means that it's comparatively less attractive for them than paints with no strategic value.

And as casting bronze helmets, greaves, bracers, breastplates and armour plates for warships is both faster and more widely possible with Untheric infrastructure than forging steel, copper and copper compounds are also in constant demand. Granted, there is a lot of bronze and copper available for repurposing in the Old Empires, but with the massive wartime demand, prices are climbing, at least in a blockaded city like Unthalass.

Only the native-born Mulhorandi soldiers and well-paid foreign mercenary wear significant amounts of metal armour. Untheri slave-soldiers, many regiments of whom were raised by the Mulhorandi to fight their former masters, usually have no armour at all, at best padded cloth armour and maybe an ancient, ill-fitting scavenged helmet from captured Untheri stores, made of thin bronze.

Even such a helmet costs about 25 gp. A decent helmet, like in the picture, is closer to 50-100 gp, at wartime prices. A suit of raw silk layered thick enough to provide even minimal protection will run around 150-200 gp. Even just as clothing, silk would be 50+ gp.

The armour in the picture is helmet, bracers and greaves. No one but entertainers wears greaves without body protection, so the torso is probably protected by either a cuirass of brigantine or plate, under the fancy surcoat, or, even likelier, the dark cloth is covering a full suit of fine mail, perhaps with mail-and-plates for the upper torso. The picture certainly looks like historical suits of Central Asian, Anatolian, Middle Eastern or Indian armour, which were generally made of fine mail. It looks a lot like jazerant/kazaghand armour.

Assuming that the dark cloth is just cloth and provides no protection anywhere but the torso, where it is layered and padded, the helmet, greaves and bracers are still enough to put the wartime price for this suit at 150-200 gp in Unthalass. Such an outfit would also weigh around 12-20 lbs., which is not huge, but the bracers and greaves are a very significant addition to bony limbs that are fast because they lack flesh or anything else that adds weight. If the suit is proper mail under the cloth and mail and plate for the upper torso, we're talking 500-1,000 gp in total and a weight of 30-50 lbs.

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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Jul 2018 15:56:26
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  15:50:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm not picturing that concept for armor. You wanted something that "doesn't smell and, ideally, is stylish and classy". So, I'm picturing your having this person wanting basically expendable undead that can serve as servants, etc... to impress visitors. If they can also function as guards, great. I'm picturing that "armor", but in much more stylish colors. Maybe adding cheap, flamboyant theatrics to it... feathers, snake skin, etc... The "mask" doesn't have to be metal. It can be ceramic and painted to LOOK like a human face.

On the thin metal coating on an exoskeleton, I'm picturing that more for your "brute force" guards of some sort (thri-kreen or umber hulk undead for instance maybe), but the metal is there more to add "flash" appeal. For that matter something akin to "gold leaf"/"metal leaf" might be used to decorate them.... as well as paints. He might also have the artists kind of "dress up" the alien looking heads somehow with feathers, stained and carved wood, or even just a painted clay ceramics. I'm kind of picturing this rakshasa as a "connoisseur" who appreciates beauty and art, but he has a natural flair for undeath. He might surround himself with the poor and downtrodden of Unther, paying them a pittance to simply paint things. Since he's also willing to have things undead "things" destroyed, since he can simply make new, he can keep these artists at work all the time. Also, if you use something akin to a mending cantrip, clay pieces, broken bones, ripped exoskeleton, etc... could be repaired and an animate body put back to use, making the need for constant new materials not be excessive.

Does this kind of fit the scenario you were trying to describe?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  16:50:10  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, I'm not picturing that concept for armor. You wanted something that "doesn't smell and, ideally, is stylish and classy". So, I'm picturing your having this person wanting basically expendable undead that can serve as servants, etc... to impress visitors. If they can also function as guards, great. I'm picturing that "armor", but in much more stylish colors. Maybe adding cheap, flamboyant theatrics to it... feathers, snake skin, etc... The "mask" doesn't have to be metal. It can be ceramic and painted to LOOK like a human face.

Ah, indeed.

That's a very reasonable idea, dressing the less valuable undead in faux armour or other costumes that cover their entire bodies and face. Of course, any embalmed zombies that Ghanashyam should happen to own should have the best armour that his budget for (this relatively minor) item in his household expenses can stretch to, but if he finds that actual metal armour is too expensive, painted ceremics are a good idea.

As for his proper household guards, I should imagine juju zombies armoured in the suit the figure in the picture had on, complete with the cloth actually being khazagand armour (mail and cloth), reinforced with plates over the upper torso. Not to mention skeletal undead created with Create Undead from the corpses of skilled warriors or assassins, who retain some semblance of their mortal fighting skills (i.e. like Pathfinder Skeletal Champions), dressed in a suit of much lighter, but still full-coverage armour.

Ghanashyam would also have a 'Skeleton Warrior' as the Captain of his Guard, in the style of the original Fiend Folio 'Skeleton Warrior'.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the thin metal coating on an exoskeleton, I'm picturing that more for your "brute force" guards of some sort (thri-kreen or umber hulk undead for instance maybe), but the metal is there more to add "flash" appeal. For that matter something akin to "gold leaf"/"metal leaf" might be used to decorate them.... as well as paints. He might also have the artists kind of "dress up" the alien looking heads somehow with feathers, stained and carved wood, or even just a painted clay ceramics.

Just so.

I like the idea of the thri-kreen, ankheg, loxo and umber hulk embalmed zombies and preserved skeletons, stored as posed works of the taxidermist's art.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm kind of picturing this rakshasa as a "connoisseur" who appreciates beauty and art, but he has a natural flair for undeath.

That is exactly right. Ghanashyam self-identifies as royal and has a sense of honour, albeit a fairly twisted one by most human standards, but he is primarily driven by his sensual side. He wants to surround himself with beauty, luxury, signs of respect and submission. He also wants to enjoy sexual gratification, intoxicating substances, fine wines, elaborate feasts in aesthetically pleasing and comfortable surroundings.

Part of his self-image is that royalty must be both philosophers and warriors, but any kind of actual work is beneath him. Ghanashyam has managed to define the social aspects of his position as a merchant, in mortal society, as being merely courtly conversation, negotiation and maneuvering in a slightly different guise (but still recoils from anyone who haggles crassly or fails to display the requisite polish), but must have lesser beings to take care of the nuts-and-bolts of any endeavour.

As a philosopher of metaphysics Ghanashyam is genuinely talented and extremely well read. As a poet he is fairly good and as a connoisseur of poetry, literature and beauty, he is sublime.

Ghanashyam is far from repelled by death or dark forces, but the smells and tastes associated with rotting corpses do not arouse or interest him one bit. As far as he is concerned, undeath is primarily interesting because of its implication for the immortal soul and the illusionary nature of death itself, not for the mere physical remnants of mortal shells.

Incorporeal undead appeal much more strongly to Ghanashyam and he sees corporeal undead as simply tools, ones that must be subjected to certain preparations in order to be sanitary and inoffensive in a household. Granted, this is how he tends to think about human slaves as well, unless they possess unusual artistic talents or exceptional beauty.

One breed of corporeal undead is an exception, as far as Ghanashyam is concerned, and that are vampires, especially the vampires of Unther, who are animated by incorporeal spirits that take up residence in blood and seem chiefly motivated by sensual lusts. Their blood is also the most delicious meal Ghanashyam has ever tasted and better than any cocktail of intoxicants and mind-altering chemicals he has ever consumed.

Ghanashyam finds vampires extremely fascinating and desires above all things to be able to do as Gula did and bind one to him as a vampire familiar. So far, Gula has refused to allow him to even attempt it, proving unwilling to either teaching him the magic or countenance that Ghanashyam should try to use his innate powers over undeath (i.e. Rebuke Undead at 20th lvl) to seize control over one of Gula's vampire allies.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

He might surround himself with the poor and downtrodden of Unther, paying them a pittance to simply paint things. Since he's also willing to have things undead "things" destroyed, since he can simply make new, he can keep these artists at work all the time.

He doesn't really care for the actual poor and downtrodden, but fortunately for Ghanashyam, a state of war, blockade and siege, following some fifteen years of chaos and civil war (not to mention several centuries of misrule for that), means that there are a lot of genuinely talented craftsmen and artists in Unthalass who are unable to find patrons or even provide for their families.

So, while materials costs are very high, the price of labour, even highly skilled labour and world-class artists, is probably the lowest Ghanashyam has ever known. Which pleases him greatly.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, if you use something akin to a mending cantrip, clay pieces, broken bones, ripped exoskeleton, etc... could be repaired and an animate body put back to use, making the need for constant new materials not be excessive.

I expect that Ghanashyam will employ a house wizard, someone who was formerly in the service of a noble Untheri house, but is unemployed after his former patron fled Unthalass. There must have been some who did not wish or did not succeed in fleeing with their masters, or perhaps were not invited along.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Does this kind of fit the scenario you were trying to describe?


Indeed. Exactly so.

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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Jul 2018 16:52:26
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  18:06:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, since I think I have the idea.... let's improve on it a little bit. While I see this personality as one that will view his animate undead as valuable guards, I see him wishing for more in the way of numbers of them, so that he can use them as servants.... OR... as servants TO servants, in order to gain THEIR loyalty.

What do I mean by this? What if he looked into the ability to put "control stones" (name can change) into lesser undead (i.e. simple human/orc/goblin skeletons) which he has draped in cloth and ceramics. He then gives an item linked to THAT stone, and it gives the person the ability to make the undead perform any non-combat function. So, a slave needs someone to do heavy lifting, they can have the undead do it. If an artist needs 4 skeletons to hold up some scaffolding tirelessly so that he can paint the ceiling and move him around. If a stone worker needs someone to have a seat put around the neck of a skeleton and have them walk around so they can work on a statue, it can be done. This also puts these undead outside the hit point total that the rakshasa can control, BUT he can just keep making them as long as he has more "control stones". Now, granted, the only purpose of these extra undead becomes just to have more servants, but it would maybe seem to fit his personality, and it makes a darn good use of the fact that he can make new ones every day.


Oh, and on his taxidermy samples/ preserved house guards... several wemics, a Rhinaur, and a couple centaurs... they should be with any escort that sees him through the streets. I'm picturing these surrounding any carriage he has and/or patrolling the grounds oh is estate.

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Icelander
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  19:36:46  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ok, since I think I have the idea.... let's improve on it a little bit. While I see this personality as one that will view his animate undead as valuable guards, I see him wishing for more in the way of numbers of them, so that he can use them as servants.... OR... as servants TO servants, in order to gain THEIR loyalty.

Fair enough.

Note that the Mulhorandi-ruled areas of Unther have theoretically outlawed the private ownership of slaves (all Mulhorandi slaves must belong to a church), their enforcement of this decree is as yet weak. And with the huge number of internal refugees in and around Unthalass, obtaining slaves illegally is cheaper and easier than ever. People are selling their children and themselves into slavery, just to escape death by famine or disease in the military-administered refugee camps.

Ordinarily, skilled slaves represent a huge capital outlay, in modern terms somewhere between the cost of regular family car (Rome, driven by the slave influx from Imperial warfare) and the cost of a brand-new luxury sports car like a Lamborghini (19th century American South).

In light of the current situation, however, Ghanashyam can get slaves at prices only 10% of the lower end of that, i.e. the equivalent as the cost of a used motor scooter or so. Granted, as his ownership would technically be illegal, he doesn't have much of a guaranteed resale value, but as it is, he can get a skilled, obedient slave for about three times the cost of an average embalmed corpse (and less than he is paying Gula for a single, expertly embalmed one).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What do I mean by this? What if he looked into the ability to put "control stones" (name can change) into lesser undead (i.e. simple human/orc/goblin skeletons) which he has draped in cloth and ceramics. He then gives an item linked to THAT stone, and it gives the person the ability to make the undead perform any non-combat function. So, a slave needs someone to do heavy lifting, they can have the undead do it. If an artist needs 4 skeletons to hold up some scaffolding tirelessly so that he can paint the ceiling and move him around. If a stone worker needs someone to have a seat put around the neck of a skeleton and have them walk around so they can work on a statue, it can be done. This also puts these undead outside the hit point total that the rakshasa can control, BUT he can just keep making them as long as he has more "control stones". Now, granted, the only purpose of these extra undead becomes just to have more servants, but it would maybe seem to fit his personality, and it makes a darn good use of the fact that he can make new ones every day.

While that's all true, Ghanashyam will not be any better at making charms or amulets containing self-powered, permanent spells of Undead Lieutenant (which these stones would amount to) than any other 12th level Sorcerer.

They would be permanent magical items of considerable value, and, such, require a lot of time or resources (probably both) to make. After all, what if a PC or one of his allies wanted to do the same thing?

In general, in an established campaign world that has not experienced a magically-powered Industrial Revolution, any magical means that could revolutionarise all economies have in-built reasons why someone didn't use them millennia ago to do just that. At minimum, it has to be incredibly time- and resource-intensive to build the infrastructure.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and on his taxidermy samples/ preserved house guards... several wemics, a Rhinaur, and a couple centaurs... they should be with any escort that sees him through the streets. I'm picturing these surrounding any carriage he has and/or patrolling the grounds oh is estate.


While Ghanashyam's vanity doesn't allow him to fade quietly into the background, he does have to take care not to give the Mulhorandi conquerors reason to suspect him of being anything but a colourful, wealthy and vain merchant of Durpari origin.

Some decadent and fabulously wealthy Untheri noblemen have, in the past, owned wemic and centaur slaves, of course, but these were exotic, expensive and very attention-grabbing, sort of like using a gold-coated limousine or a private helicopter for commuting. And with privately-owned slaves technically illegal, it's a bit of a problem.

Sure, you could try to argue that you've freed your slaves and they now receive wages and/or that you gave them to the nearest temple of a Mulhorandi deity and are merely renting them out from the temple, but if these happen to be undead slaves that you are trying to pass off as living... well, they are not going to be able to answer basic questions from officials about their legal status.

Better to have them pretend to be trophies and art objects at home, than risk confiscation and even arrest every time Ghanashyam goes out.

Besides, most of the time Ghanashyam goes out, he is doing so as part of some scheme and he takes on the form of some other human than his primary mortal form. His main bodyguards are Sherashakti, a rakshasa rathi or knight, Yabaya, a female Naztharune rakshasa, and five common rakshasa in his service, Seluku, Narugut, Zamana, Ujurtan and Asardin.

All are able to take on any human form required to provide a discreet bodyguard service, but for visits requiring great secrecy, such as visits to Karallu, Ghanashyam likes to take Yabaya and Seluku, who are his best assassins and, therefore, logically must be best at predicting how and where an assassin might try to strike at their master.

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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Jul 2018 21:51:56
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  22:19:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bear in mind, when I say "Servant TO a Servant", I'm not thinking having these undead serving slaves. They may be the free people of Unther that he's seeking to curry favour with, as a simple way to ingratiate him to their society.

The solution here is to make the control stones cheap, which relates to making them very limited in scope. So, let's work through how to reduce their power. By the way, I'm intrigued by this possibility, as I may also use it for some of my own stuff for my 5e United Tharchs of Toril project. Oh, good, you found a good 3rd edition example of a spell for comparison. Alright let's look at Undead Lieutenant and strip it down further to make this much more achievable. So, Undead Lieutenant is 3rd level, grants control to a third party over ANY undead you control, lasts only a minute per level, and can only be cast upon intelligent undead to control other undead.


So, let's take this power structure and reduce it.

First, the "item" is composed of two parts. Maybe instead of "control stones" we call it a collar of control. The other part is an item that takes up an item slot in 3.5e type rules, or in 5e, something that requires attunement. So, for example, it may be a ring and a collar, or a crown and a collar, or an earring and a collar, etc... This means that that item can only be used to control a SINGLE undead. This limits the NUMBER of undead that a given person might be able to control based on the number of "item slots" or "attunement slots" that a person may have available. In 5e, this would be a max of 3 attuned items without getting into possible ways to increase attunement slots (which no one would do for this). In 3.5 I'd say that the other part can only be a head, neck, or ring slot item (limiting to say 4 possible undead under a person's control).

Second, make it so that the item can ONLY control a single TYPE of unintelligent undead (for instance, let's say this is a "Collar of Skeletal Control") and only those of 1 hit die or less.

Third, make it so that the item can NOT make the undead perform any kind of physical attack against another being (some will find ways around this to get undead to kill people, but the basic premise should hold). Fourth, make it so that the "control collar" is destroyed when the undead dies, but that the controlling item can "enchant" another control collar from simple leather if left in contact with the leather collar for.... let's say a month. Similarly, once the "control collar" is "linked" to the controlling item, perhaps the control collar must attune itself to the unintelligent undead over a 24 hour period before the three things (undead, collar, and controlling item) can work together.

Fourth, make it so that the user of the controlling item must be a living humanoid of intelligence AND charisma of 12 or better (such that they have the intellect and force of will to control the undead). Also specify that this living humanoid cannot be under any form of magical mind control, and that if they ARE placed under magical control, the undead becomes free of control and attacks the being that took over control of the living humanoid. Also, if the living humanoid is killed, the undead becomes free and begins attacking all living beings nearby.

Fifth, require that the creation of these items requires a arcane spellcaster able to cast animate dead as well as an individual able to use some divinely provided ability to command undead (i.e. in 5e, a channel divinity ability to command undead). Also, kind of as part of this requirement, the device might carry a symbol of this deity AND require the individual attuned to it to perform some form of daily propitiation to the deity. Since generally only evil and some neutral deities give ability to command undead, this will also limit the acceptance of these devices in many societies.


Since most societies will frown heavily on the use of undead, even unintelligent skeletons, this should help limit their use in society. The intelligence and charisma requirements I see as something that makes these items also limited to only a small portion of normal society (the people would have to be above average, persuasive, and intelligent). These should make these items kind of inclined toward intellectual artists or artisans. I understand your concern for how this can totally revolutionize societies, so I'm looking for as much rules control in here to make the items extremely low powered, but at the same time viable. In fact, this Rakshasa may even USE these items to determine if he wants to have an artisan in his service (they may not be "smart" or "persuasive" enough to warrant HIS time and attention, so he uses these items to determine if they are WORTHY enough to be his servants). It may even be a point of pride amongst the downtrodden people of Unther to be accepted into his service because of this testing.

Also, while these items might be used to give simple control of skeletons via the collars, the rakshasa may not relay this information to the servants that he gives the rings / tiaras / necklaces to that are linked to the collars. In fact, the control collars may be hidden entirely under the clothing, and the servants may not even KNOW that they are in control of undead. They may be told that its the clothing that's some kind of "automaton"/"golem", and if they uncover that there are bones underneath, maybe they are told that "They're needed to simply give solidity to the automaton. We could have carved wooden frames or made ceramic and metal construction underneath, but then that would affect the whole cost of them". If asked why they have a deity's symbol on them, the answer may be that, "it requires the casting of animate object, and its fueled partially by the divine power of one's prayers to the deity which enchanted the object". Of course, there would be rumors, and many may outright know it for the lie it is... but they're being treated well, and THEY aren't the undead, so maybe they won't see a problem with it.

Anyway, I'd be intrigued to hear any concepts you might have to help further limit the use of such items, while at the same time making them available to smart and artistic individuals. I wouldn't want them to replace slaves or your average, everyday worker. However, I could see them being a point of pride for say a smart and skillful artisan to be able to have say 1 to 3 "grunt" workers that he can relay the heavy work upon, and thus this artisan can attract workers who want to improve their skill while not breaking their backs (and thus, they're doing the things that require more mental thought and/or skill).

Oh, and on the making the others art at home, I get your feel. But, yes, I think those extras would make a wonderful "display" set with the loxo, thri-kreen, umber hulk, wemic, centaur, rhinaur, and maybe even some tabaxi/rakasta/cat folk on display. Saber tooths, dire lions/tigers/panthers, a hakuna/dragonne, a griffon, displacer beasts, and kamadans would also fit in well. The tiger headed rakshasa may particularly like "cat" entries.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Jul 2018 23:06:42
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 22 Jul 2018 :  00:28:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, this old 1st edition spell known by Szass Tam, I feel like it wouldn't be a "rare" spell. Its a much shorter term than the 5th level Nulathoe's Ninemen (pronounce nin-em-en by the way, like liniment, not nine-men) from 2nd edition (which was permanent until a body was returned to life), but unlike Nulathoe's Ninemen it works on undead. Its also lower in level. Oddly enough, I can see this being something that might have minor magic items that get created and sold to business men like butchers and mortician's for use a few times a day (thus a butcher could keep a side of beef available for several days. I can also see it being a divine spell available to rangers who go hunting. I can also see it possibly being a spell available to clerics of death, undeath, and hunting. For both 3rd and 5th edition, I could even see it being made a 2nd level spell instead of 3rd level. If the duration were made a set single day, I could even see it being a first level spell, and actually that's where I see it being the most versatile. In 5e, if such were an item requiring attunement, it could be something that butchers and regular old hunters buy with the ability to preserve maybe 3 corpses per day (presumably most butchers would be selling a lot of their meat on a daily basis). So, it wouldn't be an adventurer item. The rakshasa may buy such an item, and then have a servant attune to it and have the servant preserve his "displays" of his hunting prowess, who might think nothing of it.... all the while not realizing that he's preserving the rakshasa's animated undead collection.

Preservation (Alteration/Necromancy)
Level: 3 Components: V, S, M
Range: Touch Casting Time: 1 turn
Duration: 1 day per level of caster
Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: One medium sized creature
Explanation/Description: This spell preserves meat and other foods as if it had just been killed. It does not work on cooked food. It can be used on dead people to keep them intact until they
can be raised (the time preserved does not count toward the time elapsed before raising) or spoken to. It can also be used on a zombie or lich or similar undead to keep the body from rotting.


In fact, the idea above about attunement and servants may be something to really play with with this rakshasa. I know you're using a different ruleset, but under 5e rules, a person may hire a lot of servants specifically to have them capable of attuning to minor magic items that they purchase on the cheap. For instance, if a minor magic item can grant the ability to cast some wizard's cantrips or 1st and 2nd level spells a few times a day, then hiring servants to sit around and use said cantrips might be a way get things done. For instance, mending isn't needed all the time, but if a servant could cast mending twice a day, it could be useful, and it could be a very cheap item to make if it required attunement. Another item might simply perform the effects of a druidcraft spell, such that said servant could provide a report on the weather for the day, and use a cutting to make a flowering bloom to put on their master's breakfast tray, or simply start a few potted plants sprouting from their seeds so that homegrown vegetables can be harvested a little quicker with less weeding efforts or even when "not in season", etc... Such items might be some of the first things apprentice spellcasters learn how to create. Such servants would of course have other duties, but each might have their own "special" duties that are assigned, and it might even make each of them feel "special" to have just this most minor bit of magic that they're allowed to do. Similar to the control collar mentioned above, the divinely created items might come with a requirement of a prayer/sacrifice offered to the god in question.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Jul 2018 00:53:03
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Icelander
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Posted - 22 Jul 2018 :  04:51:47  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In 3e, Gentle Repose works pretty much identically to this Preservation spell and is a 2nd level spell for Clerics, 3rd level spell for Wizards/Sorcerers.

I agree that preserving a carcass ought to be a very commonly used spell. It was one of the first tasks that humans developed technology to do, after all, with drying and salting all the way through smoking, cooling or freezing.

Hunters would value it, farmers and butchers would welcome it and anyone in situations where immediate funeral rites were impossible would require it.

Realistically, there would exist cantrips and orisons to slow the rate at which food spoils or corpses rot, for a few hours, allowing hunters to carry a carcass home instead of needing to bleed and gut it before transport. There would also be a 1st level spell that allows slightly longer term storage of an untreated carcass, maybe 12 hours without meaningful rot (each hour counts as a minute), meaning that a shaman or hedge mage dedicating much of his power to it could preserve a carcass for weeks in a fairly fresh state.

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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Jul 2018 05:02:15
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Icelander
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Posted - 22 Jul 2018 :  05:14:13  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for a 'Collar of Control'/'Stone of Control'/'Undead Lieutenant Charm', such items most certainly exist in my campaign. They are, however, usually much more expensive than buying a human slave or hiring a regular labourer.

Addressing some specific issues, why would the undead be unable to harm anyone while commanded in this way? From an in-setting, metaphysical point of view, wouldn't this be an expensive extra feature, requiring magical detection abilities capable of distinguishing between an order to pound a stake into the ground from a order to beat a living person with a hammer?

From a gamist point of view, why worry about the potential of one soldier and an expensive magical item being able to replicate the combat power of one soldier? That's not at all what is potentially unbalancing about this. The real concern is that if cheap enough, this becomes technology that replaces steam power and kicks off the Industrial Revolution, which is a problem in any game where the setting isn't supposed to have one.

One way to prevent abuse, or the potential logical inconsistency of why previous necromancers never used this to create an industrial, magitek society, is to declare that such charms or items do not actually increase the pool of HDs that a necromancer can control to infinite numbers, but instead simply allow him to delegate the actual mundane work of supervising mindless undead to others, like his apprentices or other undead in his service.

More expensive charms or items could allow the necromancer to count an undead under his delegated control like this as only half as many HD as it really had, thus increasing his control pool without potentially having infinite undead under his ultimate authority.

Theoretically, I don't mind magical items that allow a character to control even a powerful undead without interfering with his ability to use his own abilities to control undead, but that kind of item would be much more complex and expensive, as it would essemtially emulate the control of a necromancer or death priest by its own power, instead of acting only to focus and transfer the already existing control power to someone else.

Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas

Edited by - Icelander on 22 Jul 2018 05:27:14
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 22 Jul 2018 :  12:52:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

In 3e, Gentle Repose works pretty much identically to this Preservation spell and is a 2nd level spell for Clerics, 3rd level spell for Wizards/Sorcerers.

I agree that preserving a carcass ought to be a very commonly used spell. It was one of the first tasks that humans developed technology to do, after all, with drying and salting all the way through smoking, cooling or freezing.

Hunters would value it, farmers and butchers would welcome it and anyone in situations where immediate funeral rites were impossible would require it.

Realistically, there would exist cantrips and orisons to slow the rate at which food spoils or corpses rot, for a few hours, allowing hunters to carry a carcass home instead of needing to bleed and gut it before transport. There would also be a 1st level spell that allows slightly longer term storage of an untreated carcass, maybe 12 hours without meaningful rot (each hour counts as a minute), meaning that a shaman or hedge mage dedicating much of his power to it could preserve a carcass for weeks in a fairly fresh state.



I agree, under 3e/3.5e yes, this could even be a cantrip. The 5e rules being what they are, I would strongly hesitate to make them a cantrip versus a 1st level spell. In fact, a lot of them might be better as a 1st level ritual in 5e, something that can be cast with minimal ritual components (say 1 cp), this due specifically to how cantrips work differently.

In fact, that could make for something interesting to get past the issues we see in 5e with minor magics (i.e. you only have X number of cantrip slots, so a lot of people spend way too much time considering what to use). Whereas mending is a very very versatile cantrip, there could possibly be 1st level spells workable as rituals for "repair ceramics", that will maybe put ceramics back together ROUGHLY (they may need to be resanded slightly and repainted with any imagery that was on them destroyed). Similar things might be used to "rejoin metal" or "stitch rip together" where they make things whole again, but not exactly "great"... such that a ripped shirt for instance will LOOK stitched, and a metal weapon rejoined may be off balance and easier to rebreak.


BTW, on the above idea of low level rituals for the "everyday man", has anyone seen a good gathering of such on the DM's guild?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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