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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  12:37:12  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In my campaign, Gula bit Kiqiluttu, a priestess of Tiamat and a master of the art of necromancy, enjoys being waited on and can obviously get very favourable rates for service by the undead, but would prefer that her servants and staff smell sweet and appear attractive.

With her deep knowledge of herbalism, thanatology and the science of embalming, Gula can preserve zombies in a 'fresh' state for quite a while. She also knows the same spell Szass Tam uses to keep his body from decaying.

Recently, Gula decided that given Rasul Khamsin Mubtasim's (PC) uncanny powers of seduction, she couldn't risk having any of her living staff receive him when he came to visit her home/place of business (an opium den by the name of 'Karallu'). So she ritually killed the most senior of her living necromantic apprentices and reanimated her as some form of corporeal undead with a preserved body, which is sentient and can still cast spells.

Gula can cast the equivalent of 6th level spells, both arcane and divine. The game isn't actually using D&D rules, just emulating the Forgotten Realms setting, so mechanical oddities and exploits of any one edition of (A)D&D aren't so important. By the way FR spellcasting works in novels and Ed's lore, a secret ritual using rare unguents or other materials would allow her much more power and flexibility than a spell that could be cast in combat time.

I was wondering, what kind of undead should her apprentice, Ashlultum, now be?

It's been established that by candlelight, Ashlultum looks much like she did before death. Her face is concealed by a mask that covers her eyes, but she's wearing pretty revealing clothing and her skin seems firm, smooth and even reasonably warm. Not quite 'normal human temperature', but as warm as a person with dangerous hypothermia... or a dead body warmed up in a hot tub.

I guess she could be an Awakened zombie preserved with expert embalming, but that wouldn't allow her to retain her memories and spellcasting abilities. Normal mummies do not retain spellcasting abilities either, though mummy lords can, but the link between Mummies and Mummy Rot makes it seem thematically inappropriate to have a mummy that doesn't rot at all.

I'm not opposed to having her be a new kind of undead, but I just wanted to rule out whether an already existing kind would fit, with the variation of the magical, herbal and scientific preservation of her body.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  14:02:36  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But why bother this much to reach a known goal from the unlikely direction when there already are vampires (perhaps several subtypes, too)?
They have inconvenient weaknesses, but it would probably be easier to circumvent/ward off those.
If the necromancer specifically wants to do it in a new way "for !!SCIENCE!!" — fine, but it's still stupid to use anyone valuable as the Experimental Subject #1.
Either way, at least take some avenue of research involving a creature with more useful abilities than just a walking corpse:
- Stabilize/refine a ghost's manifestation and suppress undesirable effects.
- Create a new variant of vampirism, with different weaknesses.
- Create some sort of "reverse wraithform" spell for anything from the (already excessive) list of non-corporeal and semi-corporeal undead (spectre, shadow, wraith, etc).

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  14:11:50  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

But why bother this much to reach a known goal from the unlikely direction when there already are vampires (perhaps several subtypes, too)?
They have inconvenient weaknesses, but it would probably be easier to circumvent/ward off those.
If the necromancer specifically wants to do it in a new way "for #8252;SCIENCE#8252;" — fine, but it's still stupid to use anyone valuable as the Experimental Subject #1.
Either way, at least take some avenue of research involving a creature with more useful abilities than just a walking corpse:
- Create a new variant of vampirism, with diffenet weaknesses.
- Stabilize/refine a ghost's manifestation and suppress undesirable effects.
- Create some sort of "reverse wraithform" spell for anything from the (already excessive) list of non-corporeal and semi-corporeal undead.


Because it has been established in my campaign that Gula knew a method for controlling a vampire utterly, as a necromantic version of a familiar, with the assistance of a magical item of jewelry that the vampire had to wear, and that she had an allegiance of mutual advantage, fear and complex relationships with a few other vampires, but is not actually capable of making a vampire through her own powers.

She is experimenting furiously to develop that ability, both because being able to create Untheri vampires* would allow her to preserve favoured servants in a form that would still appeal to her romantically, and also because it might allow her eternal life without losing her ability to enjoy sensual pleasures like fine wines, hallucinogenic substances and sexual congress.

Gula can make ghouls, ghasts and mummies with ease. She knows a ritual to make mohrgs, but it is much more difficult than creating the lesser undead and requires the sacrifice of a lot of magical power.

One of Gula's servants is a living gladiator who has become mentally disabled through overuse of various drugs and who is more or less permanently possessed by some form of incorporeal undead. She's very proud of that creation, but it only works at night, as during the day, the ghost cannot concentrate enough power to possess the gladiator.

I was considering having Ashlultum having become a Fleshwalker Mohrg, but considering that Gula has only had about 24 hours, I don't think she could have done it unless she had the ritual prepared for some other reason. So maybe some variation of Necropolitan would be better, though I question why liches would exist in a world where the ritual to make Necropolitans was known.

*The specific sub-species that I am using for the campaign, at least while the PCs are in Unther. These are animated by evil spirits that possess the blood and 'live' in symbiosis with the undead character, with the character capable of using the power in the blood to mimic biological functions when needed/desires, so they can still enjoy food, drink and, eh, other pleasures. They may retain much of their personality, but the rapacious hunger from the vicious and barely sentient evil spirit usually overpowers the original person in time. Even a strong-willed person will have to contend with furious impulses to drink blood and drain life energy.

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Edited by - Icelander on 16 Jul 2018 14:14:47
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  14:37:50  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How about a variant of the Hooded Pupil template for undead?
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  15:00:56  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

How about a variant of the Hooded Pupil template for undead?


While I was not familiar with the creature, thematically, that is essentially what Ashlultum was in life, i.e. a living servant and apprentice to a powerful necromancer and someone who longs for undeath with an almost religious fervour.

The reason Ashlultum had to be made unliving immediately, instead of at some later date, as Gula had originally planned, is that Gula had to be certain that Ashlultum no longer had any glands, hormones or sensual desires, in order for her to be immune to the powerful tantric charms of what she believes to be a mysterious monk named Akila Moonkissed.*

The last time Akila visited Karallu, he seduced Simti, a young priestess of Tiamat acting as a hostess, and was discovered by the night manager just as he left her in a delirious puddle of ecstatic unconsciousness. The night manager, Gula's vampire familiar named Ahhusha, attempted to use her domination gaze on the monk, but discovered that he had some sort of power gaze himself just before he gave her a bloody kiss that left her panting for more of his blood.

After toying with the vampire night manager for some time, Akila found his way to Gula's boudoir and entirely against her better judgment, she found herself confiding in the stranger... and shortly afterward, engaged in a steamy blood-drenched tantric threesome with him and the vampire.

Considering that this Akila arrived dressed as the Untheri equivalent of an eromenos (or perhaps more accurately a hetairos or a pleasure slave) and in the company of a man she knew as an ardent lover of pretty boys, Gula concluded that Akila would prove equally irresistible to men as women. Any person possessed of a living body could not be trusted to resist his beauty, charm and strong tantric chi.

So, an undead hostess, albeit one that looked alive enough so she would be able to pass unremarked among the unknowing guests of the opium den.

*One of the many alternate identities of the PC Rasul Khamsin Mubtasim, who is in D&D terms some sort of combination of monk and bard.

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Edited by - Icelander on 16 Jul 2018 15:01:18
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  18:47:56  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If she can create mohrgs with some difficulties (18th caster level required on the 3.5E Player's Handbook) but mummies with ease (15th-17th required, always 3.5E PHB) then she should have no problem creating a juju zombie (the 3.5 version is in Unapproachable East, 16th required) which is basically a better zombie that can have any number of HD and retains the base creature capabilities (with slight changes).

From the description:
A juju zombie appears to be an ordinary zombie at first glance, although it is generally in better condition than most of the walking dead. Its flesh has a grayish cast, and its skin is leathery and hard.

So, providing the ritual sacrifice didn't include too much hacking at the body, with some gentle repose or better herbal/embalming equivalent it should be good to go.

The only problem I see is that "by the rules" juju zombies take a small hit on their Intelligence but since this is a very special situation, Gula bit Kiqiluttu is a master in her field and is actually developing means of getting useful and not stupid servants than maybe you can houserule away the Intelligence penalty (maybe removing some of the other boni or special abilities) and have your own unique (Untheric or Tiamatan) version since you don't seem too shy in developing your own twists on existing rules, which is always a good thing.

Edited by - Demzer on 16 Jul 2018 18:49:00
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  18:59:12  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Missed the obvious: the most life-like undead creature is ghost, because it can possess actually living bodies.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Because it has been established in my campaign that Gula knew a method for controlling a vampire utterly, as a necromantic version of a familiar, with the assistance of a magical item of jewelry that the vampire had to wear, and that she had an allegiance of mutual advantage, fear and complex relationships with a few other vampires, but is not actually capable of making a vampire through her own powers.

But if she already got vampire allies, why would she need to replicate it through her own powers?
All she needs is an agreement to have the fresh vampire released from control — if they know how to do so. Or a spell that breaks the spawn-master connection without harm, if they don't (then it's also valuable knowledge to trade), and perhaps just in case.
If she needs the spell, binding and safe unbinding of undead familiars, master links of the lesser undead and her own control technique are promising starting points.

quote:
These are animated by evil spirits that possess the blood and 'live' in symbiosis with the undead character, with the character capable of using the power in the blood to mimic biological functions when needed/desires, so they can still enjoy food, drink and, eh, other pleasures. They may retain much of their personality, but the rapacious hunger from the vicious and barely sentient evil spirit usually overpowers the original person in time. Even a strong-willed person will have to contend with furious impulses to drink blood and drain life energy.

Aside of this being derived from obvious unrelated sources?
The hunger can be dealt with as vampires in various settings do: feed long before risk to lose control arises, and have various backup sources of blood (which don't need to be all humanoid, sapient and unwilling) kept nearby for the times when hunting is too dangerous.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2018 :  23:25:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The host of a Dybukk Demon appears to be alive, but is in fact undead.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  00:09:50  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

If she can create mohrgs with some difficulties (18th caster level required on the 3.5E Player's Handbook) but mummies with ease (15th-17th required, always 3.5E PHB) then she should have no problem creating a juju zombie (the 3.5 version is in Unapproachable East, 16th required) which is basically a better zombie that can have any number of HD and retains the base creature capabilities (with slight changes).

Assume that she can cast a spell equivalent to Create Undead and Create Greater Undead as a 22nd level caster, which means that is something she can do every night, if she wants.

Creating a mohrg that retains class levels or another form of intelligent undead rarer or more powerful than ju-ju zombies, ghasts, mummies or similar requires that she obtain a proper subject (e.g. an unrepentant mass murderer for a mohrg) and sacrifice him (or allow to be killed) in a way that results in a new mohrg coming into existence.

She could theoretically do the same with vampires (and, in fact, her attempts to do so are among the plot hooks that PCs can stumble into).

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

From the description:
A juju zombie appears to be an ordinary zombie at first glance, although it is generally in better condition than most of the walking dead. Its flesh has a grayish cast, and its skin is leathery and hard.

So, providing the ritual sacrifice didn't include too much hacking at the body, with some gentle repose or better herbal/embalming equivalent it should be good to go.

The only problem I see is that "by the rules" juju zombies take a small hit on their Intelligence but since this is a very special situation, Gula bit Kiqiluttu is a master in her field and is actually developing means of getting useful and not stupid servants than maybe you can houserule away the Intelligence penalty (maybe removing some of the other boni or special abilities) and have your own unique (Untheric or Tiamatan) version since you don't seem too shy in developing your own twists on existing rules, which is always a good thing.


I'm torn whether to call Ashlultum a variant ju-ju zombie or a variant mummy. She's expertly embalmed, which would suggest a mummy, in real world terms, but she's not associated with rot at all, which makes it fairly inaccurate to use the D&D term 'Mummy' for her at all.

Essentially, what I want is an intelligent, corporeal undead without any sensual drives, hungers or other desires that can be manipulated. A recently dead soul trapped in a lifeless body that has, at least for the moment, not yet started to decay in any meaningful way.

The reason I'm looking for D&D monsters that resemble that is that Rasul's/Akila's player wanted to know if his Bardic Lore yielded any knowledge about any forms of undead that fit the observable evidence about the hooded woman who received him, in the last session.

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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Jul 2018 00:59:11
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  00:21:24  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The host of a Dybukk Demon appears to be alive, but is in fact undead.


Thanks!

Awesome. It's not what I was looking for for Ashlultum, who is meant to retain (as much as possible) her mortal memories and spellcasting abilities, but it fits pretty much exactly with other things Gula has been doing.

Of course, summoning demons from the Abyss is probably frowned upon by modern orthodox Tiamat worshippers, but Gula is nothing if not pragmatic, and far too devious to be confined to just one form of fiendish assistance.

Essentially, Zage Karab, Gula's chief bodyguard, is possessed by a spirit very similar to a Dybbuk. Granted, that's a ghost, not a demon, but the distinction is more or less meaningless in terms of Untheri mythology.

Even Untheri vampires are fundamentally corpses possessed by an incorporeal evil spirit, though of a breed that takes up residence in the blood. They are called rabisu.

Of course, in my campaign, the vast majority of Untheri ghosts, spirits and demons are unable to operate during the day. So during the day, Zage Karab is merely a mentally challenged former gladiator who stands around drooling and corpses animated by a dybbuk or rabisu would die again while the sun is in the sky.

So Gula can't have any form of undead that are essentially dead bodies animated by demons, ghosts or vampiric spirits act as a hostess when the PCs visit her place of business during the day. Hence the need for an intelligent undead like Ashlultum, one where the soul is securely trapped in the corporeal body and not a roving spirit that is banished by the day.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  00:57:23  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Missed the obvious: the most life-like undead creature is ghost, because it can possess actually living bodies.

Yes, but in setting, the sun and the day are very powerful forces in banishing evil forces, spirits, ghosts and demons. A ghost capable of exerting any influence on the world of the living during the daytime would be exceptionally powerful and Gula only has an allegiance with 'normal' ghosts, spectres and such, all of whom are mostly powerless by day.

So any temporarily possessed body is out as the daytime hostess.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

But if she already got vampire allies, why would she need to replicate it through her own powers?
All she needs is an agreement to have the fresh vampire released from control — if they know how to do so.

The vampires that Gula is associated with were all spawn of the same master. During the Time of Troubles, Gula invaded his lair while he was dead to the world and imprisoned him in a magic-dead sarcophagus.

The lesser vampires claim that none of them knows how to make new vampires. Gula knows enough so that she might force one or more of them to do so, but the problem with that is that the metaphysical connection between master and spawn is all but unbreakable. Not to mention that the mere act of creating a subservient vampire is likely to increase the power of the creator vampire, which might upset the power balance between them and Gula.

Gula wants new vampires, yes, but loyal only to her and not metaphysically linked to vampires whose allegiance she is far from certain about. And she's not about to allow anyone to make her a vampire if that means being subservient to someone else.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Or a spell that breaks the spawn-master connection without harm, if they don't (then it's also valuable knowledge to trade), and perhaps just in case.
If she needs the spell, binding and safe unbinding of undead familiars, master links of the lesser undead and her own control technique are promising starting points.

Such a spell would be more than the equivalent of a 6th level spell. Gula could do it as a ritual, using a powerful magical item intended for the purpose, and she was not certain of being able to affect a powerful vampire. She selected her vampire familiar at least partly because she felt confident about being able to detach her from the control of her master.

Gula has only prevented the master vampire she imprisoned from being able to call on the metaphysical connection with his spawn. She's pretty certain if he ever makes it out of his magic-dead prison, he'll be able to control them just as before, no matter what magic she can bring to bear. As near as she can make out, the rabisu spirit that animates a master and their spawn are parts of the same being, so severing the connection permanently is pretty high on the list of most advanced necromancy magic possible.

It's a goal, certainly, but it's not something she can do any time soon.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Aside of this being derived from obvious unrelated sources?
The hunger can be dealt with as vampires in various settings do: feed long before risk to lose control arises, and have various backup sources of blood (which don't need to be all humanoid, sapient and unwilling) kept nearby for the times when hunting is too dangerous.


These particular vampires are as likely to eschew human blood from a living prey as alcoholics are to drink only water for the rest of their lives. Drinking blood is for them better than a feast for a starving epicure, better than that first sip of champagne after years of sobriety, better than the icy fire of heroin blazing through the veins after days of cold turkey. It's better than sex.

As a result, these vampires tend to be somewhat of a problem. Sure, Gula has the odd recalcitrant debtor, loudmouth or rowdy to dispose of, but she doesn't want to draw attention to herself. She's first and foremost a businesswoman and people disappearing near her places of business is not good.

Zombies and mummies don't actually require any food or subsidence. And while ghouls and ghasts are greedy for meat, they are weak enough to be commanded pretty easily and can just be locked away in a secret catacomb when not required as guards or body disposal devices.

Mohrgs are murder addicts, in itself pretty much as problematic as the vampires (who are both addicted to blood and require it and life energy to survive), but the one or two that Gula employs are controlled by a mixture of magic, unholy power, intimidation, cajoling and bluff.

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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  01:16:42  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just use slaves or acolytes.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 17 Jul 2018 01:20:51
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  01:52:09  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Just use slaves or acolytes.


Those were the people who couldn't be trusted last time and now that Gula is afraid that Akila/Rasul might have designs inimical to her.

She will not immediately have him attacked, as she is far from certain he is an enemy and when they last parted, she was at the least quite infatuated with him, but Gula strongly suspects him of what must be accounted unfriendly acts, including 'stealing' her prized vampire familiar, through unknown metaphysical means.

She very much wants to speak with him, but as her most powerful defences, guards and allies require there to be nighttime to be able to function, she has to meet with him with only her daytime staff in attendance. She could refuse to meet with him until the sun sets, but if she did, he'd probably leave and she would be unable to get answers that she very much wants.

Good manners and diplomatic protocol* require that a reasonably attractive, polite and charming representative meet with Akila and his companions as they wait for Gula. Slaves and acolytes would probably be completely helpless against whatever means Akila/Rasul uses to seduce people. So having mortal slaves or acolytes entertain Akila and his companions while Gula awakens and prepares herself for the meeting is not an option.

Gula doesn't want whomever she sends to be easily tricked, seduced or enthralled into giving up all the secrets of her defences to Akila, not to mention becoming so infatuated that he or she chooses him over loyalty to Gula (which is apparently what happened to the last acolyte, not to mention Gula's vampire familiar, which shouldn't even be metaphysically possible).

The PCs initially encountered the day manager of Karallu, a mortal acolyte named Dungi, and the mortal warrior that has been assigned as the daytime chief of security while Gula is on high alert. As soon as they saw who it was (and failed to keep the PCs out), they went to wake their mistress and alert her apprentice and newest undead creation, Ashlultum.

The PCs were escorted to an elegant dining room in the cellar, which has secret doors to the shrine to Tiamat and a room where ghouls, fast zombies and perhaps other mindless undead are kept. There is also a mosaic radiating strong magic, probably some form of protection or trap.

The two mortals, Dungi and the warrior Nigsummulugal, appear unwilling to spend any time around the PCs, or at least to stand near them. The player has decided that the hooded woman, Ashlultum, who offers them a water pipe, wine and snacks, is some form of undead. His best evidence for this is that she is apparently serenely indifferent to Akila's best come-hither gaze, seductive body language and the sensual caress of his softly crooning voice, all golden molasses and erotic daydreams.

That's actually not bad evidence, as anything with even a remote and theoretical interest in sexual activity or other sensual experiences would probably find it difficult to be unaffected. Not only does he have the bardic training to pitch his voice to tempt an abbot to sin, but his chi is strong and he knows how to project it with tantric rituals and mantras.

*Akila/Rasul is pretending to be an envoy from the Cult of the Dragon, specifically the Chessentan/Threskel cell of the Great Bone Wyrm.

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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  02:31:28  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Golems? Flesh, Leather, made with skill and artistry. Undead can be controlled by others.

Thay Red
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  03:33:47  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are several realms specific undead that fit this description. Numerous liches have spells that allow them to appear wholly or nearly living.

Then there are the living Zombies - these are normally controlled however so would not fit.

Similarly is the Drow version (I forget the name) like what Malice did to Drizzt's father.

There are others but these are the ones that pop immediately to mind.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  08:23:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure why you'd want to make your undead minions appear living. I mean, bones poking out of their bloodless flesh and squirmy wormies leaking out of their glowing eyesockets is what undead are all about!

If you want pretty live-looking minions then just use pretty live people instead of corpses. Enchantments go a long way. While being surrounded by muscular young bodyguards/concubines doesn't even require spells or magic at all if you've got the gold.

[/Ayrik]
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  09:36:18  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

I'm torn whether to call Ashlultum a variant ju-ju zombie or a variant mummy. She's expertly embalmed, which would suggest a mummy, in real world terms, but she's not associated with rot at all, which makes it fairly inaccurate to use the D&D term 'Mummy' for her at all.

Essentially, what I want is an intelligent, corporeal undead without any sensual drives, hungers or other desires that can be manipulated. A recently dead soul trapped in a lifeless body that has, at least for the moment, not yet started to decay in any meaningful way.

The reason I'm looking for D&D monsters that resemble that is that Rasul's/Akila's player wanted to know if his Bardic Lore yielded any knowledge about any forms of undead that fit the observable evidence about the hooded woman who received him, in the last session.



Embalmed/gentle reposed juju zombie or corpse creature (from Book of Vile Darkness) are the simplest and most straightforward way since they're just better zombies. If the body was killed less than 1 day before and properly treated then there is absolutely no way it might show signs of decay yet (but probably would require long term maintenance to remain so, still something Gula should be able to do).

Also, your campaign may vary but if he is a multiclassed character just having bardic knowledge on the sheet doesn't mean he automatically knows everything about anything, there should be tests involved and he may simply fail to recognise the undead creature or even be sure it's undead.

I don't know why you are overlooking other ways of shutting off compulsion/emotions like mind blank, enormous buffs to will saves, protection from alignment, etc...

And if the problem was just buying time then unseen servants and the likes (or even small elementals) would have sufficed without sacrificing any long-time asset.

I'm a bit confused by the fact that apparently the character has already found his way into Gula's embrace (so any secret might already be out) and Gula seems determined to meet him again, so all these preparations seem futile (her newly created undead minion will not fail her but she will fail herself as she has already done).

Side question: how do the other player's characters resist the powers of his voice and mere presence?

Edited by - Demzer on 17 Jul 2018 09:37:35
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  11:15:10  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
(...)
Similarly is the Drow version (I forget the name) like what Malice did to Drizzt's father.
(...)


Zin-Carla. There is a version of this spell in the AD&D 2e Drow of the Underdark.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 17 Jul 2018 11:15:37
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Icelander
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  13:30:32  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Not sure why you'd want to make your undead minions appear living. I mean, bones poking out of their bloodless flesh and squirmy wormies leaking out of their glowing eyesockets is what undead are all about!

Just because someone is a necromancer doesn't mean that she has to have identical aesthetic tastes as every other necromancer.

Gula dislikes the natural processes of aging, disease and physical weakness, which led her to study necromancy looking for ways to retain her youth and beauty. She might have the odd kink, like finding the death of a beautiful woman, peaceful and sad wrapped in her shroud, romantic and sexy, but anything that mars the beauty of a body she is likely to find as off-putting as anyone else.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If you want pretty live-looking minions then just use pretty live people instead of corpses. Enchantments go a long way. While being surrounded by muscular young bodyguards/concubines doesn't even require spells or magic at all if you've got the gold.


Gula owns six underground dens of iniquity and pleasure -slash- opium dens, where mortal acolytes, servants and slaves provide a variety of sensual delights to a diverse clientele.

Guests are not meant to know anything about her being a necromancer. Granted, well-informed people know that she is a reliable source for alchemical and herbal reagents, some high-ranking people in the Unthalass underworld are aware that she's a spellcaster and the best informed are aware of her connection with the Cult of Tiamat, but the less people know about her real powers, the better she likes it.

She can't control rumours, of course, but she would never dream of anything as crass as having obviously rotting undead moving around in the open of any of her establishments. A vampire as night manager is all well and good, but ghouls, ghasts, mummies and mohrgs have to be kept out of sight.

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Icelander
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  14:34:08  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Embalmed/gentle reposed juju zombie or corpse creature (from Book of Vile Darkness) are the simplest and most straightforward way since they're just better zombies. If the body was killed less than 1 day before and properly treated then there is absolutely no way it might show signs of decay yet (but probably would require long term maintenance to remain so, still something Gula should be able to do).

Unintelligent undead can't act as polite hosts. No matter how nervous Gula might be of the potential that Akila/Rasul might be a threat to her, she can't ignore the fact that he appears to be a legitimate envoy of the Great Bone Wyrm, who in turn is the most powerful being behind the Free Untheri armies that menace Unthalass and the flight of dragons and dracoliches that threaten it. For all Gula knows, Akila/Rasul might have the power and authority to decide who governs Unthalass after it is seized from the Mulhorandi (which Gula believes it eventually will be) or if she is found to be politically unreliable and 'accidentally' killed during the violent times ahead.

Not to mention that zombies or the equivalent couldn't be much help if Gula needed to project some power in her meeting, especially if she required magical assistance rather than brute, killing force.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Also, your campaign may vary but if he is a multiclassed character just having bardic knowledge on the sheet doesn't mean he automatically knows everything about anything, there should be tests involved and he may simply fail to recognise the undead creature or even be sure it's undead.

He may, but if there are any legends about such creatures in Murghom or Unther (or if they are known in the Nine Hells), he would probably know something about them.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I don't know why you are overlooking other ways of shutting off compulsion/emotions like mind blank, enormous buffs to will saves, protection from alignment, etc...

Mind Blank is an 8th level Abjuration wizard spell. Gula is a much more powerful necromancer than she is a general wizard (or priestess) and she can't perform that spell or its equivalent. She could boost the Will of her followers, but not to anywhere close to her own level and she's convinced that any mortal servant of hers would be too vulnerable.

She'll have as many protections herself as possible and believes that forewarned, she'll be able to resist Akila/Rasul's fatal charms.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

And if the problem was just buying time then unseen servants and the likes (or even small elementals) would have sufficed without sacrificing any long-time asset.

You can't leave important, high status visitors with Unseen Servants or elementals. There are rules of protocol that you can't violate if you want to be taken seriously.

You can make guests wait for you to dress, but unless you want to be thought low-class, ignorant or impoverished, you have to leave them in the charge of a courtier or some acceptable substitute.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I'm a bit confused by the fact that apparently the character has already found his way into Gula's embrace (so any secret might already be out) and Gula seems determined to meet him again, so all these preparations seem futile (her newly created undead minion will not fail her but she will fail herself as she has already done).

Last time, Gula didn't have any recent to suspect Akila/Rasul of being a particular danger to her and her organisation. He was just an exciting envoy from the Cult of the Dragon, which Gula actually belongs to (as well as the Tiamat cult).

It was only after their night together that Gula discovered that Akila/Rasul had somehow seduced one of her acolytes into running away and, more worryingly, caused her vampire familiar into running after him like an infatuated teenager. Gula could use her connection to the vampire to call her back, but she still demonstrated every evidence of being obsessed with Akila/Rasul.

This was troubling, but what really terrified Gula was the day after, when some metaphysical force awakened her vampire familiar in the middle of the day and made her leave Gula. And an hour later, Gula felt her connection to her vampire familiar break.

It was at that point that Gula became concerned enough to make special arrangements.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Side question: how do the other player's characters resist the powers of his voice and mere presence?


Uh... badly?

Mostly, Rasul doesn't try to seduce the other characters. Well, not too badly. He doesn't channel his chi at them, at least, or play erotic dominance games with them. He does talk them into insane schemes, like infiltrating the Tiamat cult in Unthalass disguised as an agent of the Cult of the Dragon in order to work against the current leadership of Wyrm Princess Shudu-Ab.

One PC and two of the NPCs travelling with them are his great-nephews and -niece, so actually seducing them would run into incest taboos. Two other PCs are from Cormyr and Sembia, where all sexual preferences might be unstigmatized, but where the concept of binary sexual preference at least exists as a social construct. So they self-identify as heterosexual, which means that a male character has less chance of seducing them. All the same, last time those PCs spent any significant time with Rasul, it was before he entered the divine light of Nanna-Sin. He's much harder to resist now.

The PC who has the most problems is sort of a surrogate son figure to Rasul, but not actually related to him. He identifies as heterosexual, but given how open minded the character is, it's implausible that he'd have any instinctive revulsion toward cultural mores in the Old Empires. And culturally, it would be natural for him, as a teenage male, to engage in a romantic paederastic relationship with Rasul, entirely independently of his teenage pursuit of women (and presumably, later marriage).

I'm assuming that the player is less broad-minded than the character and does not wish his PC to play eromenos to another PC's erastes. Of course, Rasul's player has gamely contrived a series of situations where the characters can display sexual tension.

Last session, the PCs visited the Summunu usaru ('Oiled Penis'), a bath house that provides a variety of erotic services. While there, Rasul provided the other PC with a well-oiled tantric massage, in order to help him recover from a recent, fatiguing ordeal.

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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Jul 2018 14:35:10
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Icelander
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  16:01:32  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Golems? Flesh, Leather, made with skill and artistry. Undead can be controlled by others.


Golems take a long time to build and Gula only became aware of the full scale of the potential threat 24 hours before where we are now, in play. There is also the fact that as an undead creator, Gula is world-class, but as a wizard or priestess creating a golem she is merely adequate.

Most of all, though, a mindless golem cannot act as the representative and spokesperson to formally welcome an envoy and his companions to Gula's home and place of business. That has to be a senior member of Gula's household, someone who can look and act like a person of high status or at least like a trusted and valued slave from her inner circle.

Granted, Gula is not actually a noblewoman, but she's a respected figure within the criminal underworld of Unthalass and the rules of etiquette are remarkably similar. It's not necessary for her representative to be of high birth, but it has to be someone who commands equal respect in the underworld as a noble's steward, chatelaine or chamberlain would do in the world of the upper class.

As Gula's senior apprentice in necromancy, Ashlultum fits the bill. The day before where we are now in play, however, Ashlultum was unfortunately alive and thus unreliable when dealing with someone who can apparently seduce anyone in minutes. Ashlultum might be unusually cold, reserved and uninterested in intimacy with anyone, but while she was still mortal, Gula couldn't be sure that she didn't have some hidden passions that could be manipulated.

And given how Untheri vampires retain many sensual appetites in unlife, having a vampire ally receive Akila/Rasul would not be a marked improvement over a human servant. And, of course, the vampires are dead to the world during the day, which makes them useless when Akila/Rasul visits in the afternoon.

Hence the necessity for a ritual to make Ashlultum a creature of pure intellect, whose fleshly shell was merely a convenient social convention, no longer a source of treacherous hormones, glands and emotions.

It helped, of course, that for Ashlultum, being freed from the imperfections of her mortal shell was a consummation devoutly to be wished, the realisation of a lifelong ambition. Unfortunately, the circumstances led to the ritual being used before Gula had perfected some higher form of undeath or even experimented sufficiently with this variation and it's more than possible that Ashlultum's current form has some unforeseen side-effects or is less than stable in the long term.

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Demzer
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  19:09:08  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, now I got the why the meeting is important, why Gula wants someone properly trained to receive the PCs and why things may play out differently for her this time.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Unintelligent undead can't act as polite hosts.



Both juju zombies and corpse creatures retain all previous abilities including spellcasting, they appear as zombies (a little tad better) but have nowhere near the actual problems of zombies. They are not mindless, they're just corporeal undeads without special cravings (that's why making them is more difficult then making regular zombies).
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Icelander
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  21:19:21  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Ok, now I got the why the meeting is important, why Gula wants someone properly trained to receive the PCs and why things may play out differently for her this time.

Of course, the players are planning to feed Gula a mixture of subtle innuendo, deceptive half-truths and outrageous lies, over-awe her with portentous hints and affirm their firm and friendly allegiance to her in all her future endeavours, whether in the Unthalass underworld, within the faction-riven Tiamat cult and in any new 'Free Untheri' society established once the Mulhorandi are defeated.

Whereupon Rasul, in his guise as the Cult of the Dragon envoy Akila, will seduce Gula again and somehow get her to accept the intolerable provocation of having 'stolen' one of her acolytes, not to mention her vampire familiar. Rasul's player is relying on a very specific set of conditions, i.e. that Gula is intelligent, strong-willed and pragmatic enough to overrule such useless emotions as wounded vanity, jealousy and loss of face; while at the same time, that Gula is still infatuated enough with him to accept him back like the temporarily repentant abusive boyfriend he is.

In his favour is that Gula still doesn't know how it was even possible to awaken her vampire familiar in the middle of the day, not to mention somehow break the imitation master-spawn metaphysical bond she had established with the familiar. Not only must Gula tread carefully until she discovers the precise parameters of the potential threat, but the lure of perhaps acquiring such previously unsuspected necromantic secrets is probably one of the most powerful motivations that could be found for Gula.

A wild card that could be beneficial or might yet be disastrous is that Gula was not merely physically attracted to him, but reacted to him as she has not reacted to any mortal, male or female, in more than half a century. She didn't mind sharing him with her vampire familiar, which she regards more or less as a particularly useful mobile piece of furniture and sex toy, but she's mortified, furious and crushed that Akila seems to have preferred her undead possession over HER!

Ordinarily, she'd also be furious that he absconded with a store of emergency gold and pearls, as well as the person of one Simti, an acolyte of Tiamat and hostess at the opium den, but in light of the deadly offence of selecting the undead maid over the necromancer mistress, Gula treats these merely as angry afterthoughts.

So the meeting is important because of the war and the blockade of Unthalass, because of politics and intrigue on several playing grounds, because of metaphysical threats and mysteries, and because of a passionate love-hate triangle (hexagon, if Gula only knew) that spans across social classes and the boundaries of the grave. So Gula isn't sure whether to ritually sacrifice Akila, ravish him or some squicky combination of the two, probably involving paralyzation by mohrg tongue and the forcible harvesting of someone's seed.

Still a better love story than Twilight.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Both juju zombies and corpse creatures retain all previous abilities including spellcasting, they appear as zombies (a little tad better) but have nowhere near the actual problems of zombies. They are not mindless, they're just corporeal undeads without special cravings (that's why making them is more difficult then making regular zombies).


Ah! Thanks a lot.

Corpse Creatures sound more or less exactly like what I was looking for. Gula's personal recipie would give up the harder, more resilient flesh for a more lifelike appearance.

Juju zombies can be her go-to creation when she obtains the body of a person with valuable skills or abilities. She does, after all, get the equivalent of two free uses of Create Undead and one free use of Create Greater Undead per day, both at the equivalent of 22nd caster level.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 17 Jul 2018 :  21:26:40  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Netherse living zombie is pretty much exactly what you're looking for. See How The Mighty Are Fallen - the adventure set in Netheril Arcane Age for stats and details.

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Thraskir Skimper
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Posted - 18 Jul 2018 :  20:50:37  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Read the Book "Warm Bodies"

Thay Red
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Icelander
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Posted - 18 Jul 2018 :  23:49:07  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Read the Book "Warm Bodies"


Why?

Aside being probably the most mass-market friendly paranormal romance with a zombie protagonist, does it contain any information that would be useful in providing Realms-specific lore on well-preserved, intelligent, corporeal undead?

Other than, obviously, that Gula will want to avoid selecting a 'Warm Bodies' style brain-eating zombies, as those are apt to develop human emotions and cravings as a consequence of their diets. She'll want to avoid any undead with obsessive hungers or addictions, as such passions make them vulnerable to manipulation in the same way as humans. Ghouls, ghasts, vampires, even mohrgs, these all crave something so very badly, and who knows whether Akila could find some way to seduce them through their cravings?

Better to stick with something like a Corpse Creature, in the absence of an easy way to whip up a quick Mummy Lord, Lich or the equivalent. Expert embalming, alchemy, herbalism, perfumery and a magical spell of Preservation/Gentle Repose will do the rest.

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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Jul 2018 00:05:11
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  03:09:09  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More of a World War Z guy. Book was great. Movie was shit.
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moonbeast
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Posted - 20 Jul 2018 :  13:32:40  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander


I was wondering, what kind of undead should her apprentice, Ashlultum, now be?

It's been established that by candlelight, Ashlultum looks much like she did before death. Her face is concealed by a mask that covers her eyes, but she's wearing pretty revealing clothing and her skin seems firm, smooth and even reasonably warm. Not quite 'normal human temperature', but as warm as a person with dangerous hypothermia... or a dead body warmed up in a hot tub.



How about something like a Dhampir? You know…. a vampire but not a full vampire. Dhampirs are daywalkers, since they don't suffer the curse of being burned by the daylight sun. And hence they can "pass" for normal human mortals.

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Icelander
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Posted - 21 Jul 2018 :  17:02:40  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

How about something like a Dhampir? You know…. a vampire but not a full vampire. Dhampirs are daywalkers, since they don't suffer the curse of being burned by the daylight sun. And hence they can "pass" for normal human mortals.


The specific vampires I'm using in Unther are symbionts with evil spirits that live in their blood. These evil spirits are completely powerless while the sun is in the sky, even if it is nowhere near the vampire. Even underground, they are completely dead and unresponsive during the day.

Of course, Gula is exactly the kind of person who might experiment with vampire types that originate in other areas of the Forgotten Realms, ones that are not so completely powerless in the daytime. And she certainly knows of such vampires, in Thay, for example (where dhampirs are very likely to exist, as well).

If she does perform such experiments, however, she is not going to make Ashlultum one, as the whole reason for making her apprentice undead was to eliminate in her any inconvenient glands, hormones or other things that contribute to physical and sensual desires. Undead that still lust after something aren't really an improvement over a living body, for Gula's specific purposes.*

*Or for Ashlultum's ultimate desire to enjoy an immortal lifetime as a cool, logical intellect, free of anxiety, stress, panic attacks and all the other weaknesses of her treacherous body.

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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Jul 2018 17:03:21
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 25 Jul 2018 :  11:35:32  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought of another one - this time from Greyhawk. Check out the Animus in From The Ashes. Ivid the Undying is the main example.
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Icelander
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Posted - 25 Jul 2018 :  12:24:34  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I thought of another one - this time from Greyhawk. Check out the Animus in From The Ashes. Ivid the Undying is the main example.


From Wikipedia, the Animi appear to be quite a bit more powerful than something that could be created in haste overnight. Gula can drown her apprentice in a ritual and cause her to arise as a re-animated corpse, easily enough, and given that she had probably been working on such a ritual for Ashlultum for years, it's even plausible that she could retain her memories and spellcasting abilities, but gaining immense strength, magical fear, paralyzation and domination powers, not to mention near-indestructibility, seems like something that requires more power and time.

I see that in the Greyhawk storyline, the creation of Animi required the assistance of pit fiends and an actual artifact borrowed from one of the Dark Eight himself. So, even though she would dearly love to have such powers, I fear Gula must content herself with a mere glorified zombie.

In D&D terms, Ashlultum is a Corpse Creature, with the single modification that at least for the moment, Ashlultum's flesh has not hardened nor has she started to smell of decay. Then again, she's been dead only for half a day and she smells strongly of some kind of floral or herbal perfume.

In D&D terms, Gula has the Feats Corpsecrafter and Nimble Bones, as well as the class feature Undead Mastery. Ashlultum therefore effectively gains +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 to Initiative and +10' to Speed as part of her transformation, as well as gaining all undead traits, having her HD changed to d12 and gaining +4/dice Hit Points. In GURPS terms, this translates to a pretty intimidating array of physical awesomeness, though odds are that Ashlultum would still fight using spells, if pressed, and prefers to avoid combat at all.

Though Ashlultum was a fairly physically weak, uncoordinated and slow person in life, in undeath she becomes as strong as a circus strongman and though she is apparently clumsy, is still capable of a surprising burst of speed. Destroying her is very difficult, as she lacks any circulation of blood and most of her organs have been replaced with sand and sweet-smelling herbs. This means that to stop her, load-bearing bones have to be broken or limbs hacked off. It is possible, though, that her brain is still vulnerable, as to retain her memory and spellcasting abilities, Gula pickled her brain in some alchemical compound, but left it within her skull cavity.

As Ashlultum is using the Disguise Undead spell, only Akila/Rasul noted that she was undead (he touched her and used an ability he has to detect supernatural sources of evil). The rest of the party accepted her as a socially-awkward necromancy nerd, a sheltered goth girl scholar whose existence revolved about taxidermy, mortician-work and various alchemical formulae. Which, indeed, she was until the night before. And, really, still is, except now she doesn't have to eat, drink, breathe or worry about all the tiresome biological details that used to interfere with her studies.

As an experiment whether an undead being without any sensual side could resist Akila's bardic and/or chi-based enthrallment abilities, Ashlultum was a splendid success, proving entirely immune to his sexual wiles. Of course, as she still retains much of her original personality, seduction based on attention, affection and understanding might stand a chance, but there was no time for such an approach in the situation. So Ashlultum managed to welcome the PCs and act as hostess until Gula had dressed.

Unfortunately for Gula, even being alert to the possibility of Akila manipulating her and having layered herself in a variety of spells designed to dampen her emotional responses did not prove sufficient for her to resist Akila.

It might have, if Gula had acted cold and disinterested like she'd planned, but once she felt that she was in control of the situation, she over-reached herself by moving in to kiss Akila after casually suggesting that she might drink his delicious lifeforce from his shivering innards and draw the secret she desired from his screaming soul. Gula expected him to rebuff her kiss and thus lose face in front of others, as he had no way to know if she could cast some kind of energy draining spell with a kiss, but Rasul's player, as Akila, decided to risk a terrifying death rather than lose face.

Thus, from his lips, by hers, his sin was purged. Or words to that effect. Akila wasn't quite forgiven his trespass and temerity in stealing Simti (acolyte of Tiamat, hostess at Karallu) and Ahhusha (vampire familiar of Gula, night manager at Karallu), but by promising to teach Gula the way to break the link between a vampire and her master, he had at least won the right to walk out alive.

Gula did try to keep Jaad and Tabitha, two young henchpeople of the PCs (and siblings to one PC as well as great-niece and -nephew of Akila/Rasul), as insurance until Akila had taught her his necromantic secrets, but a promise of a powerful spellbook of necromantic lore and whispers of sweet nothing somehow convinced Gula to allow the PCs to leave in exchange for nothing more than promises.

I mean, yes, she did have undead assassins in her service try to follow them, instructed a mohrg and several vampires to find the place they were staying and used a variety of divination and scrying spells to try to gain information that she could use to ensure that she had the upper hand in any future dealings, but she didn't actually have them seized by the cold, grasping hands of dozens of undead servitors and ritually sacrificed in a bloody, dark ceremony, so we're counting this as a win.

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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Jul 2018 13:17:50
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