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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2018 :  22:29:57  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Been thinking a lot about couatl and their “racial” history a lot lately. I believe the old history is that they were formed from the droplets of blood that spilled from Jazirian’s tail when he separated from Ahriman (Asmodeus) at the very dawn of time. Somehow, and at some point, they became servants and messengers of Qotal. Now I’m not sure if this means that Qotal is Jazirian or if Qotal simply usurped then after Jazirian was slain by Mershaullk (that’s the lore I use in my campaign) but I really want to know more about these magical beasts. Is there any more info that I’m missing? I know there is also a blurb about them leading the tabaxi of Chult (human tabaxi, not the cat folk) away from the Sleeper/tarrasque in Katashaka (GHotR). Is that all there is?

I’m also trying to work on some alternative couatl species that have abandoned Qotal for one reason or another. Aztec myth for one is rife with stories of the flame-born living weapon known as the xiuhcouatl. Also, perhaps the rain dragons known as tlalocoatl are from couatl stock that were changed into their current forms long ago by the god Azul (pretty much Tlaloc from Aztec myth).

Am i missing anything?

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2018 :  10:13:46  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In FR Couatls were members of the Serrahk the reptilian creator race who after leaving Toril for the planes sided with Jazarian and were transformed into Couatls. After his his death some went to serve Ubtao and others a Maztican God.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2018 :  11:19:07  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given that the couatls are supposedly transformed sarrukh that once served jazirian I would be tempted to make the couatl like phaerimm and sharn and I've them be an end stage transformation for magical transcendence.

So the couatls could be the final stage in the transformation and so anyone could in theory undertake the transformation process (It's just that the sarrukh were first, some chultans may have done so later). The different maztica dragons may not be dragons at all and just variants of couatls created by different variants on the same transformation ritual, or the different maztica dragons could be a stage before (a regression/cursed transformation or incomplete transformation).

I'm inclined to go with the fire couatl and water couatl are curses inflicted upon individuals (who then procreated) which allows a good story of why the curse was inflicted, mistake, punishment, etc.

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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2018 :  20:02:18  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem here, like always, is they have had like 5 different published racial histories that all pretty much ignored the previous ones. It sounds like you are trying to reconcile them. I recommend just chalking it up to the fog of pre-history. Kind of like how we don't know much about dinosaurs so there are those that say they evolved into birds while others argue there is no direct connection.

I look at all the racial histories we have that predate 10,000 years as more of myths than anything else. Stories based on fragments of stories passed down. That is why they never agree.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2018 :  20:16:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always make all the racial histories correct.

It's foolish to think that in a multiverses filled with habitable planets (with similar environments) and infinite planar demesnes of habitable regions that a magically aided evolution would only result in a creature being created or evolving once.

If it is the apex of a branch of magical transformation then it is likely and highly probably that millions upon millions of magic using humanoids stretching over a combined multiversal history of each planet will have discovered their own variant of this transformation on many separate occasions. And just as humans struggle to distinguish one type of rat from another (unless you are an expert), to most folk each type of couatl like creature is virtually indistinguishable.

So make them all happen. If thrikreen inhabit totally different regions without any likelihood of them having travelled there then they evolved or were created separately with their own history. Same for owl bears and couatl and even drow (greyhawk has its own origin as does FR and both can be true).

But that aside couatl were a created race on FR so that creation does not have to be a single event and can result in many variations.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  01:46:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd wonder about the aeaeree and the couatl having involvement with one another as well. Especially if the couatls are transformed Sarrukh (a creator race, lets us not forget). We have it that the aearee possessed scales and feathers, so the original aearee may have been less like the aarakocra and more like the archaeopteryx. I can see some of the aearee being couatls (so similar to an archaeopteryx, but more serpentine). given that Qotal and the area where the aearee were from have a lot of overlap, it would fit. Also fitting into this mix would be the quetzalcoatlus.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/winged-dinosaur-archaeopteryx-may-have-been-first-self-powered-flier

The last entry in the journal records a remarkable find. Far to the north, hovering above an ice-filled bay, Eartharran discovered an apparently abandoned floating city. During a brief exploration of the place with his crew, the captain sketched several examples of the remarkable statuary they found. From his drawings, it appears that the city must once have been inhabited by a humanoid race with both draconic and avian features— that is, scales and feathers. The captain openly speculates as to whether the aearee, as he called these creatures, were the descendants of great wyrms who had evolved avian characteristics, or the forebears of both the draconic and the avian races. The captain’s entry ends with a brief note that he and his crew were forced to flee back to their ship to escape a wing of wyrms that had suddenly appeared on the horizon.

I can only guess at the fate of Eartharran and his crew, but the discovery of a broken black dragon scale amid the wreckage of the ship suggests that their journey met a violent end.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jun 2018 01:48:06
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  02:03:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seethyr

not the greatest feathered dragon drawing, but still... nice. Their gallery is nice too.

https://kerembeyit.deviantart.com/art/Syrpolis-124429094


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  02:37:34  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome responses. Serpent Kingdoms is honestly one of my favorite products from 3.5 days and yet I forgot to check its lore on couatls. I ran instead with 2e’s Guide to Hell (the source of my Jazirian and Ahriman info). I wonder if the two different but similar backgrounds could work together somehow lore wise.

The info on the aeree really makes me wish they got the same treatment the sarrukh got in Serpent Kingdoms.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  13:39:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm kind of picturing the aearee race as having created the more birdlike races that survived as servitors, much like the yuan-ti are survivors of the sarrukh. Thus, the aarakocra and kenku as survivor races (and my pa'rati, tucati, Ibideans, and vulture folk in Katashaka). However, perhaps they took in some of the Sarrukh and taught them of Jazirian (their god)... a god that didn't demand the sacrifice of Sarrukh OR scaleless ones like Merrshaulk.

One thing to note for archaeopteryx as well is that it had a bony tail, unlike modern birds who have just tail feathers. It also had three "fingers" on its wings in the form of reptilian claws, and it had a snout with teeth.

https://museumsvictoria.com.au/website/melbournemuseum/discoverycentre/600-million-years/timeline/jurassic/archaeopteryx/index.html

Also, there is this predecessor to the archaeopteryx that was recently found apparently. The main thing I see with it is that it has rounded teeth, so its possibly herbivorous, and also as a result, unlike a chicken which has to swallow small pebbles to put in its gizzard to "grind" food, this would be a function of its teeth.
http://theconversation.com/move-over-archaeopteryx-an-earlier-bird-caught-the-worm-2558

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fconfrontingcreation.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F07%2F34-27-archaeopteryx-l.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fconfrontingcreation.wordpress.com%2Ftag%2Farchaeopteryx%2F&docid=bHcL7lP4OVYMNM&tbnid=jIJQB88sud6rdM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj8ASgkMCQ..i&w=552&h=600&bih=963&biw=1920&q=archaeopteryx%20image&ved=0ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj8ASgkMCQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

www.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fscience-environment-27502354&docid=5ut7EeD1OpRGmM&tbnid=Fl1hzql95vA5HM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj9ASglMCU..i&w=624&h=510&bih=963&biw=1920&q=archaeopteryx%20image&ved=0ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj9ASglMCU&iact=mrc&uact=8" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F624%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F75003000%2Fjpg%2F_75003400_e4450111-artwork_of_an_archaeopteryx%2C_the_first_bird-spl.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fscience-environment-27502354&docid=5ut7EeD1OpRGmM&tbnid=Fl1hzql95vA5HM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj9ASglMCU..i&w=624&h=510&bih=963&biw=1920&q=archaeopteryx%20image&ved=0ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwj9ASglMCU&iact=mrc&uact=8

www.q-files.com%2Fimages%2Fpages%2Fgalleries%2F592%2Farchaeopteryx-1.jpg%3F344&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.q-files.com%2Fprehistoric%2Fdinosaur-species%2Farchaeopteryx%2F&docid=KQZ1dPEuFkO6HM&tbnid=cG3t7KSx2nviSM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwitAihVMFU..i&w=654&h=487&bih=963&biw=1920&q=archaeopteryx%20image&ved=0ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwitAihVMFU&iact=mrc&uact=8" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.q-files.com%2Fimages%2Fpages%2Fgalleries%2F592%2Farchaeopteryx-1.jpg%3F344&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.q-files.com%2Fprehistoric%2Fdinosaur-species%2Farchaeopteryx%2F&docid=KQZ1dPEuFkO6HM&tbnid=cG3t7KSx2nviSM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwitAihVMFU..i&w=654&h=487&bih=963&biw=1920&q=archaeopteryx%20image&ved=0ahUKEwj1o-mcmOLbAhUMWqwKHREhDLAQMwitAihVMFU&iact=mrc&uact=8




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  14:19:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, one other thing to consider... we have Kukul, we have Qotal... we have Jazirian, and we have Parrafaire (son of Jazirian and Shekinester).

Now, we also have 4e lore stating that Qotal betrayed the other primordials to side with the gods at the end of the shadow epoch, and serpent kingdoms puts Parrafaire's "birth" as "after the fall of Mhairshaulk"... so it becomes hard to say that Qotal = Parrafaire without also stating that it wasn't Qotal during the shadow epoch (possibly Jazirian? After all, what do modern scholars "KNOW" about lore from almost 30 thousand years prior).

However, Parrafaire is a deity that appears to be very much like Qotal. Both are gods who deal with mazes, who push their followers to seek enlightenment. Both have ties to couatl. From a DM's perspective, I would put it that Qotal is Quetzalcoatl, but that the nagas know him as Parrafaire, son of Jazirian and Shekinester the Naga Queen. This opens up another bag of worms then, as Maztica then becomes equated to Shekinester the Naga Queen. Also, Shekinester "swallows" Ssharstrune when "he" attacks her (with a maca of darkness?) and after "swallowing" him she is "shattered" like the World Serpent into five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer,
the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. It is after this that the race of iridescent nagas (a feathered naga with scales that reflect sunlighting in a scintillating array of colors...) is born, as well as other naga races. So, in some ways, "modern" Maztica would appear similar to "the Preserver" aspect of the Naga Queen. This would also equate "Kukul" to Jazirian.

from monster mythology
Shekinester's son Parrafaire is likewise a being with a light spirit. He is a trickster also, but he is more thoughtful and wise than the young dragon goddess. Parrafaire is a protector of secrets and concealed wisdom, a guardian as his mother is, but those secrets are not of his own being as his mother's are. Still, he is clearly closer in nature to his parent than Aasterinian and he also has a same-sex parent, usually Jazirian in naga mythology, despite the couatl's hermaphroditic nature (which is not represented in naga mythology, nagas seeing Jazirian in his malaspect)

and later we have this description of parrafair in monster mythology
Parrafaire is a guardian of magical secrets and hidden places usually far below the ground. He serves more than one god in this way, both his own mother Shekinester and a very diverse assortment of other gods, including even such unlikely candidates as Dumathoin of the dwarves.

Parrafaire’s role is not to prevent access to such secrets and magic entirely, though. Rather, he tests the wisdom and resourcefulness of those who come seeking. He places (non-lethal) traps, decoys, diversions, mazes, cryptic clues, and the like to challenge the adventurous, and will himself present riddles and puzzles which demand an answer if he is to permit questers to pass by him. He is unconcerned with morality or ethics, simply
caring for mental resourcefulness and skill.

Roleplaying Notes: Although Parrafaire is a demigod, his mother’s ability governs his avatars so far as planar travel, number, and replacement times are concerned. Parrafaire has just one weakness: flattery which focuses on the smartness of his riddling and expressed admiration for his skills. A comment such as a heartfelt “that was sneaky, we had a lot of trouble dealing with that” will gain some mileage with the wise but slightly vain Parrafaire. Attempts to deceive or trick him do not go down well unless they are spctacularly well-planned and executed. Parrafaire does not have any form of priesthood and has no known worshipers.


and later we have this description of Parrafaire's avatar

The avatar appears as a water naga with a male human head and feathered ears and a skin color which can change to suit his environment (or as he wishes). He also has feathered wings which similarly change color.


Now, in the above, there's also some flaws in comparing to Maztican mythology... for instance Qotal is alive prior to Maztica's "death", whereas Parrafaire's birth comes only after Shekinester swallows Ssharstrune and "expelled" him for Parrafaire to "hide in the earth". Still, it is worth discussing possible ties of the gods as follows

Jazirian ~= Kukul / Kukulkan
Parrafaire ~= Qotal / Quetzalcoatl
Ssharstrune ~= Zaltec "the darkfire"
Maztica ~= Shekinester the Naga Queen / Preserver guise "Keeper of Flame in the Court of Light and the great maintainer of existence"
The Weaver guise of Shekinester? ~= Lolth?... or maybe Lolth seeks to subvert this guise?

And of course, none of this covers the ideas of the other children of Maztica (Tezca, Plutoq, Azul, Kiltzi, Watil, Nula) also fathered by Kukulkan. I will note here that Eha is NOT a child of Kukulkan or Maztica. However, perhaps these children were born of Jazirian / Kukulkan and the Preserver?

Maztica was a land created by and for the gods, and for a long time only the gods lived here. The father of all the gods was Kukul, and their mother was the True World itself. Eldest of the Sons, and most honored, was Qotal, the Feathered Dragon. Next in line, violent and powerful, was Zaltec, the Bloody Hand. Then came the other brothers: Tezca and Azul (also called Calor), the twins of Fire and Water; and Plutoq, sturdy master of Stone. But Kukul and Maztica were not content with sons, and they gave birth to daughters as well: Kiltzi, goddess of growth and nourishment; and her younger sisters Watil, goddess of plants, and Nula, she who watched over animals. Their creatures and their verdancy spread across the world, and Maztica became a place of life.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jun 2018 14:52:08
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2018 :  14:52:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Note, in the above, I'm just opening the idea for discussion... I'm not in love with it. The fixing of the timing of it in particular becomes hard.

However, I would think that linking couatl, iridescent naga, and the aearee as a culture might be worth looking into. Especially if the splitting of the nagas into 5 distinct sub-races occurred around the time of the fall of Mhairshaulk and the later rise of the Aearee. Into this I'd even recommend putting some "wyrm" type dragons which are basically giant, feathered snake-like entities.

As far as creations of the Aearee, I would put Dragonnes/Hakuna (possibly as a breeding experiment of captured lammasu)... Wyverns... Quetzalcoatlus... aarakocra... Kenku

I base some of this on the following from GHotR, which occurs around the time of the sundering of Abeir and Toril, the arrival of dragons, the rise of the Aearee, the fall of the Batrachi, and possibly the splitting of Shekinester and "swallowing of Ssharstrune"... and also possibly the death of Asgorath/Asgoroth and destruction of the "ice moon"/"Crystal Sun" that "Zotha" had wrought to exist above the "flat world" as intimated in the original Draconomicon and the 4e FRCG.

c. –31000 DR
An unimaginable catastrophe strikes Abeir-Toril. Whole continents vanish in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, and the seas are rearranged. Ancient sarrukh accounts remark on the “changing of the stars,” but no one now knows what this might mean.

Most scholars now speculate that at about this date a comet or ice moon fell from the sky, devastating much of Abeir-Toril, and refer to this event as the Tearfall. The four Inner Seas merge together to form the body of water known today as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tens of thousands of dragon eggs soon hatch across Toril. The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the batrachi civilization.

— Rise of the Aearee Empires (avian creator race). In the west, the Aearee-Krocaa establish the grand aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar, which became the capital of their great nation. In the north, the Aearee-Syran establish their capital at the aerie of Phwiukree, in the peaks of the Star Mounts. In the southeast, the Aearee-Quor carve out the domain of Shara from their rookery in the Orsraun Mountains.

c. –30700 DR
Lammasu Massacre: One thousand Aearee-Krocaa lose their lives to a much smaller force of lammasu. Later experiments with domesticated landwyrms produce the first winged wyrms, which the aearee name wyverns. Thanks to its new wyvern armies, the Aearee-Krocaa empire expands rapidly.

c. –30400 DR
The Wasting Plague: In a conflict between the gnolls of Urgnarash and the rookery of Kookrui-Shara, shamans of Yeenoghu summon marrashi—spirits of pestilence from the Barrens of Doom and Despair—to blight aearee crops and spread a wasting plague among the avians. Decimated, many Aearee-Quor turn to the demon lord Pazrael for salvation



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jun 2018 15:23:07
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2018 :  20:56:48  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
After all, what do modern scholars "KNOW" about lore from almost 30 thousand years prior).



This is the crux of my argument about these type of discussions. The Stories published are either 1) the best guesses of sages / historians, 2) Legends (along the line of King Arthur) or 3) Myths
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2018 :  22:34:28  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Been thinking a lot about couatl and their “racial” history a lot lately. [...] Somehow, and at some point, they became servants and messengers of Qotal. Now I’m not sure if this means that Qotal is Jazirian or if Qotal simply usurped then after Jazirian was slain by Mershaullk [...]
Am i missing anything?

Or it means nothing at all.
There are avariel who worship Remnis, djinn and aarakocra who serve Aerdrie Faenya, and whatnot that serve whoever.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

After all, what do modern scholars "KNOW" about lore from almost 30 thousand years prior).

That, too.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Shawn Daniels
Seeker

79 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  02:06:17  Show Profile Send Shawn Daniels a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I intensely would like to believe that Qotl is an aspect of Jazirian.

Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  23:38:59  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are also ta theory by sleyvas that Kukul is Jazirian (as Kukul is also named after an incarnation of the Feathered Serpent - Kukulkan of the Yucatec Maya), or alternately that Kukul was the World Serpent:
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

on Ubtao/Qotal and Kukul/Jazirian. I think Jazirian was Kukul... or possibly Jazirian is a later, lesser aspect of Kukul after the world serpent begins to break down and creates Jazirian. I think when Kukul/Jazirian "left/died", he passed on couatls to his son Qotal. There may be something to a story of Kukul becoming Ao, but if so its only after his son Zaltec kills Kukul's "wife"/ Zaltec's "mother" (Maztica) with a maca with a "killing edge of darkness". It could ALSO be (and more likely in my book) that Kukul is Orrobouros. It is kind of interesting to read this portion of the Maztica boxed set with that in mind.

Kukul, father of the gods, saw what his son had wrought. He grieved for the crime of Zaltec, and wailed for the loss of the goddess his wife. His undying despair shattered the elder god, and left the children of Kukul and Maztica to battle among themselves.

Now Qotal roared his own rage, and the humans fell back in terror and awe. War erupted among the gods, as Tezca, Plutoq, and Azul stood with their brother Zaltec, and Kiltzi and her sisters joined forces with Qotal.


So, just to note, there's Zaltec, plus a being of fire, stone, and water, standing against Qotal, a goddess of love, a "sprite" of wind, another of animals, and another of plants. So, almost like "primordials versus gods", with Qotal "betraying" his brothers.

It should also be noted that the storyline goes "Jazirian and Ssharrstrune court Shekinester the naga queen. Jazirian impregnates Shekinester. Ssharrstrune in a rage attacks Shekinester and Shekinester swallows Ssharrstrune. Shekinester is fragmented, but not totally and later expels Ssharstrunes corpse after birthing Parrafaire, the naga prince. Parrafaire hides the body. I BELIEVE Later, some non-evil Sarrukh of Okoth entreat Jazirian for succor, and he transforms them into couatl. These couatl fight the other Okothian Sarrukh, and then Merrshaulk, a darker fragment of the World Serpent, finally slew Jazirian. At that point, the couatl flee to Maztica where the god Qotal embraces them as his own and they acknowledge him as Jazirian reborn."


All of this is after beings that worship that Maztican gods are given the powers of Hishna and Pluma. With Hishna, humans can take on animal forms like Jaguars. So, in this, I believe that Hishna was originally a LOT more powerful, and it was through it that many of these "beast humanoids" were created. Meanwhile, Pluma may have been a power given first to the aearee... and it may ALSO have made them a target for people's needing feathers to work Plumacraft. I imagine the original versions of these magic may have been more of a "dream magic" wherein the crafter enters a "dreamlike" state while performing the tedious, repetitive requirements of pluma and hishna.


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