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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2018 : 16:39:30
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I’ve noticed that a lot of gods have shifted alignments and behaviors over the years. I mean not just under an edition and subsequent author change, but actually quite organically and storied. I believe this is the case with Jergal (who came to just seem more uncaring than evil), Mystra a number of times (mostly because of changes in incarnations), and Mask (whom I love as a more neutral entity). Perhaps it’s due to my love of redemption stories but are there any others I’m missing? How about ones that went the other way? I actually miss the old denominations of CN (with good tendencies) that we don’t see anymore.
FYI In my Maztican campaign, Azul is headed this way, while his brother Plutoq is becoming crueler.
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 19:09:22
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I would argue that the current alignment given for Vhaeraun in the SCAG is wrong and that based on his canon experience as "part" of Eilistraee, as well as the century of changed conditions among his faithful as the wards of Corellon, Vhaeraun is now at least Chaotic Neutral. Without his hatred for his sister, and knowing that even his father was willing to save what was left of him, the motivations for malevolence fall sharply.
Tempus has been changed to Neutral from Chaotic Neutral in 5e according to the SCAG. In the non-canon explanation that I give in my Tempus pamphlet on DMsGuild, I offer the explanation that this alignment change is a result of Tempus' realm being moved away from the chaotic realm of Limbo. Since Tempus was responsible for maintaining a very large realm that other gods live in, the surrounding chaos from Limbo probably affected his mind to some extent.
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 19:46:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
I would argue that the current alignment given for Vhaeraun in the SCAG is wrong and that based on his canon experience as "part" of Eilistraee, as well as the century of changed conditions among his faithful as the wards of Corellon, Vhaeraun is now at least Chaotic Neutral. Without his hatred for his sister, and knowing that even his father was willing to save what was left of him, the motivations for malevolence fall sharply.
Tempus has been changed to Neutral from Chaotic Neutral in 5e according to the SCAG. In the non-canon explanation that I give in my Tempus pamphlet on DMsGuild, I offer the explanation that this alignment change is a result of Tempus' realm being moved away from the chaotic realm of Limbo. Since Tempus was responsible for maintaining a very large realm that other gods live in, the surrounding chaos from Limbo probably affected his mind to some extent.
That makes sense - and yes, I forgot about Vhaerun. Give him over to RAS and he’ll be a 1e paladin before you know it lol.
Which reminds me (I don’t know why, but it did), after Helm’s actions in the ToT and in Maztica, I’m surprised he didn’t shift a tad. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 20:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
That makes sense - and yes, I forgot about Vhaerun. Give him over to RAS and he’ll be a 1e paladin before you know it lol.
RAS has explicitly expressed dislike for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, he won't talk about them or use them in his writing.
As for Vhaeraun, he's still an imperialist and supremacist at heart. His plans for the drow align with that philosophy, and that makes him lean towards evil. His feelings towards Eilistraee have changed, but the core of his ideology has not. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 20:51:58
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| Zandilar (Sharess) shifted from CG to CN and I'm not sure why. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 04:36:56
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| Vhaeraun is sort of like a milder Zun-Kuthon, so him staying evil isn't out-of-character. Even evil deities can love their good family members. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 05:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Vhaeraun is sort of like a milder Zun-Kuthon, so him staying evil isn't out-of-character. Even evil deities can love their good family members.
Now that you mention this, Shelyn does have quite a lot in common with Eilistraee too (although Vhaeraun's ideology is not related to Zon-Kuthon's). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2018 05:29:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 08:25:26
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The word "epiphany" has some distinctly different definitions:
Specific usage traditionally refers to Christian doctrine, "The Epiphany" (or "Theophany") strictly refers to the manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles (the revelation that Christ was God incarnate) - or to the Christian holy festival (aka "Little Christmas") which observes and celebrates it.
Generic usage refers to any manifestation of a divine being or supernatural influence.
Common usage refers to a moment of sudden (and usually profound) clarity, revelation, realization, or insight.
I think it's safe to dismiss the first definition in the Realms, the Faerunian pantheon is decidedly "pagan". And it's probably safe to dismiss the second definition, the Faerunian deities manifest avatars and magics and miracles on a daily basis.
But the last definition seems tricky to me. Faerunian deities do change (have changed) over time, but their "personalities" seem to remain fairly constant unless their divine "rank" and powers and portfolios are dramatically changed. Mystra was killed and reborn several times, Mask divested himself of much power to Cyric, Tyr was blinded by Ao, Lathander was an aspect evolved from Amaunator, Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba, Moander's moment of epiphany gradually dispersed him, Karsus's moment of epiphany instantly rendered him eternally dormant, Cyric's moments of epiphany impelled him towards ever greater stages of insanity, etc - and yet, these deities still continue to think and act exactly as they did before, in essence they don't change much (if at all) after recovering from these sudden/traumatic changing and defining events.
Realmslore has established that the deities and their faithful exist in symbiosis, they are each dependant upon the other. But Realms faiths rarely change or evolve in sudden and profound ways ... they gradually drift towards new goals and directions or they readily adopt changes in "doctrine" which are basically just trivial bookkeeping details. Religions resist change and don't tend to experience "sudden, profound revelations" without great schisms and holy wars. Deities and religions in the Realms (like any other government institution) seem to be massive, monolithic, glacial things which possess great inertia - it's hard to motivate them into motion, but once in motion it's equally hard to deflect them onto another path or to slow them down - the only things which can produce an "epiphany" in them are things of even greater scope and scale, world-destroying apocalyptic sorts of stuff. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 May 2018 09:02:34 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 13:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
That makes sense - and yes, I forgot about Vhaerun. Give him over to RAS and he’ll be a 1e paladin before you know it lol.
RAS has explicitly expressed dislike for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, he won't talk about them or use them in his writing.
As for Vhaeraun, he's still an imperialist and supremacist at heart. His plans for the drow align with that philosophy, and that makes him lean towards evil. His feelings towards Eilistraee have changed, but the core of his ideology has not.
If it was Vhaeraun in a relative vacuum, then I might feel inclined to agree, but he now has perspective from his sister's point of view, and he's had a chance to see how happy his faithful are in the paradise of Arvandor.
Since he can't exactly extricate his faithful FROM Arvandor without severe resistance (especially from those who found mates among Eilistraee's faithful - alluded to in The Lady Penitent), Vhaeraun doesn't have much choice except to maintain a presence in Arvandor and be surrounded by reminders of how good he had it when he was growing up, and to spend even more time with Eilistraee and the rest of the "Light" Seldarine.
His ideology would likely have partially changed in order for him to get along with his sister at this point, just as his faithful have learned how to be happy as residents of Arvandor.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 27 May 2018 13:21:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 18:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
That makes sense - and yes, I forgot about Vhaerun. Give him over to RAS and he’ll be a 1e paladin before you know it lol.
RAS has explicitly expressed dislike for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, he won't talk about them or use them in his writing.
As for Vhaeraun, he's still an imperialist and supremacist at heart. His plans for the drow align with that philosophy, and that makes him lean towards evil. His feelings towards Eilistraee have changed, but the core of his ideology has not.
If it was Vhaeraun in a relative vacuum, then I might feel inclined to agree, but he now has perspective from his sister's point of view, and he's had a chance to see how happy his faithful are in the paradise of Arvandor.
Since he can't exactly extricate his faithful FROM Arvandor without severe resistance (especially from those who found mates among Eilistraee's faithful - alluded to in The Lady Penitent), Vhaeraun doesn't have much choice except to maintain a presence in Arvandor and be surrounded by reminders of how good he had it when he was growing up, and to spend even more time with Eilistraee and the rest of the "Light" Seldarine.
His ideology would likely have partially changed in order for him to get along with his sister at this point, just as his faithful have learned how to be happy as residents of Arvandor.
I'm not sure that I would like that. From a certain point of view, I do, I really do (especially because I've always thought that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should have been grudgingly cooperating against Lolth since the very beginning). However, Vhaeraun's imperialism has always been his main draw for the drow (the quest to bring the drow back to their old glory and empires). Of course, Ilythiir--Vhaeraun's Ilythiir, the true one--is not coming back without a good dose of ruthlessness. I mean, he should remain the magnificent bastard that he is. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 10:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
That makes sense - and yes, I forgot about Vhaerun. Give him over to RAS and he’ll be a 1e paladin before you know it lol.
RAS has explicitly expressed dislike for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, he won't talk about them or use them in his writing.
As for Vhaeraun, he's still an imperialist and supremacist at heart. His plans for the drow align with that philosophy, and that makes him lean towards evil. His feelings towards Eilistraee have changed, but the core of his ideology has not.
If it was Vhaeraun in a relative vacuum, then I might feel inclined to agree, but he now has perspective from his sister's point of view, and he's had a chance to see how happy his faithful are in the paradise of Arvandor.
Since he can't exactly extricate his faithful FROM Arvandor without severe resistance (especially from those who found mates among Eilistraee's faithful - alluded to in The Lady Penitent), Vhaeraun doesn't have much choice except to maintain a presence in Arvandor and be surrounded by reminders of how good he had it when he was growing up, and to spend even more time with Eilistraee and the rest of the "Light" Seldarine.
His ideology would likely have partially changed in order for him to get along with his sister at this point, just as his faithful have learned how to be happy as residents of Arvandor.
I'm not sure that I would like that. From a certain point of view, I do, I really do (especially because I've always thought that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should have been grudgingly cooperating against Lolth since the very beginning). However, Vhaeraun's imperialism has always been his main draw for the drow (the quest to bring the drow back to their old glory and empires). Of course, Ilythiir--Vhaeraun's Ilythiir, the true one--is not coming back without a good dose of ruthlessness. I mean, he should remain the magnificent bastard that he is.
Well, times change, and both Vhaeraun and his faithful have had an extraordinary heart-changing experience. Not in the blink of an eye. either, but over the course of more than a century.
Vhaeraun wouldn't lose his portfolio or overall theme if he were to stop being evil - he could still believe in racial superiority, and still engage in a number of ruthless tactics, but he might be considerably less malicious about it. Since Vhaeraun is a god of rebels, not of conquerers, it wouldn't be unimaginable that he'd focus more on setting people, especially Drow males, free from the tyranny of Lolth.
EDIT: Weird - my browser is showing a color change in text but I didn't set a color for text... |
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 29 May 2018 11:00:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 13:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
EDIT: Weird - my browser is showing a color change in text but I didn't set a color for text...
It's a quirk of the forum coding. When there's a bunch of nested quotes, it does odd things to the text that comes after that. |
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Deific Epiphanies
