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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2019 : 23:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Goth means enemy, not Lord. The literal translation of Morgoth is Black Enemy, after all.
Where did you get this translation, I may need to update my own; because I've always found that Goth or Zot mean Lord.
EDIT: I thought Armauk meant enemy in Black Speech. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 17 Nov 2019 23:53:31 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 02:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Guessing Loraukh.
Then why would humans translate it as Overking and not just as King or Emperor?
It seems implicit in the title of Overking that he has the same title as his subordinate rulers, with the addition of a prefix (or suffix, I guess, depending on orcish grammar) that modifies it, leading to the 'over' in human translation.
So, if it is 'Loraukh', does that mean that either 'Lor-' or '-aukh' on its own is also a title of rulership for orcs? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 16:42:05
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According to Ed Greenwood in Polyhedron #74, orcs call themselves 'the Mighty', refer to all other intelligent races as 'Meat' and call humans 'Brittle Bones'.
These are obviously directly translated terms form the original orcish and I was wondering what they would sound like in the original.
One helpful note might be that 'Ugrukh' translates as 'Broken Bones' in Orcish and is used by orcs for wounded, defeated, slaves or those too weak to defend themselves or to be worthy of attention. It seems probable that 'Brittle Bones' would be similar to 'Broken Bones' in Orcish, perhaps with a slightly different prefix. The plural 'Bones' might be rendered '-grukh', 'rukh' or '-ukh'.
English to Orcish
'Broken Bones' = Ugrukh
'Brittle Bones' = ?
'the Mighty' = ?
'Meat= ?
Can anyone help? Can these words be found in any of Ed Greenwood's answers over the years? In a novel somewhere? Or in unpublished notes or correspondence with some scribes in Candlekeep? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2019 : 20:37:23
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I want to come up with orcish terms for priests, clerics, adepts, sorcerers, shamans and witch doctors.
I'd like to have at least one term which refers to what in D&D terms would be cleric class characters, something which means 'war priest' or something like that. They would belong to a hierarchy of clergy in orcish society, with adepts at the bottom and clerics and specialty priests above them.
Shamans, the way I view them in orcish society, would be intermediaries with the spirit world, capable of praying to the gods as well as spirits of ancestors, animals and locales. They would be distinct from priests, who are sworn to the service of one god.
Witch doctors and sorcerers would probably be referred to using the same term in orcish society.
Does anyone have a good suggestion for orcish words for the following:
Priest = ?
War Priest / Cleric = ?
Shaman= ?
Witch doctor / Sorcerer = ? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 00:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
According to Ed Greenwood in Polyhedron #74, orcs call themselves 'the Mighty', refer to all other intelligent races as 'Meat' and call humans 'Brittle Bones'.
These are obviously directly translated terms form the original orcish and I was wondering what they would sound like in the original.
One helpful note might be that 'Ugrukh' translates as 'Broken Bones' in Orcish and is used by orcs for wounded, defeated, slaves or those too weak to defend themselves or to be worthy of attention. It seems probable that 'Brittle Bones' would be similar to 'Broken Bones' in Orcish, perhaps with a slightly different prefix. The plural 'Bones' might be rendered '-grukh', 'rukh' or '-ukh'.
English to Orcish
'Broken Bones' = Ugrukh
'Brittle Bones' = ?
'the Mighty' = ?
'Meat= ?
Can anyone help? Can these words be found in any of Ed Greenwood's answers over the years? In a novel somewhere? Or in unpublished notes or correspondence with some scribes in Candlekeep?
I did "ukh" as bone(s) and "ugri" as broken.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 11:22:54
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I've made up a list of some orcish words I needed for flavour text.
These are all made-up, in some cases with reference to Dragon #75, Polyhedron #74 and the few phrases from Vaasa orcs noted in Sentinelspire, but mostly just... made up.
Please comment, correct, suggest and otherwise nitpick.
Dak = 'Attack' (v.)
Dakzok = 'Attack/battle' (n.)
Daraka = 'The Mighty', i.e. Orcs (n.)
Dryht = 'Horde/host' (n.)
Er = 'Lost' (adj.)
Eroka = 'The Lost' (n.)
Ghaz = 'God' (n.)
Ghaza = 'The Gods' (n.)
Gjak = 'Chant' (v.)
Gjakdad = 'Chanter' (n.)
Gjakdan = 'Chant' (n.)
Grong = 'Drum' (v.)
Grongdan = 'Drummer' (n.)
Grongan = 'Drum' (n.)
Gul = 'Speak' (v.)
Guldak = 'Speaker' (n.)
Gungri = 'Brittle' (adj.)
Gungrukh = 'Brittle Bones', i.e. Humans (n.)
Maur = 'Make war' (v.)
Maur-Guldak = 'War Speaker', i.e. war priest or cleric (n.)
Maurzok = 'War' (n.)
Mauthaug = 'Worms', i.e. lesser goblinkin (n.)
Shatak = 'Runecaster' (n.)
Shatan = 'Runes) (n.)
Uryt = 'Tooth'
Uryth = 'Teeth'
Wung = 'Spirit' (n.)
Wungtan = 'Spirit world' (n.)
Yur = 'Ancestor' (n.)
Yuroka = 'Ancestors' (n.)
Yurtan = 'That of the Ancestors' (n.), i.e. everything that pertains to the ancestors.
Zardj = 'Employ magic' (v.)
Zardrach = 'Sorcerer/witch doctor/wizard' (n.)
Zardtan = 'Magic/mysticism' (n.)
The way I see it, divine spellcasters, whether shamans, adepts, specialty priests or clerics, can all be referred to as 'Guldak' (pl. Guldaka; collective noun for the clergy, 'Guldaktan'). Priests of a specific deity are 'Guldak oj [deity]' or 'Speaker for [deity]', while shamans are either 'Guldak oj Wungtan' = 'Speaker for the Spirit World' or 'Guldak oj Ghaza' = 'Speaker for the Gods'.
Meanwhile, Grongdana 'Drummers' and Gjakdada 'Chanters' are respected roles in orcish society. Drummers signal in battle and over long distances, as well as providing a suitable rhythm for orcish fireside chants and religious ceremonies. Chanters are usually orcs with some or all of strong voices, good memories and an outgoing personality, being the orcs who lead the ritual chants around fires. Chanter is not a full-time profession, except for certain religious roles and the Maur-Gjakdada 'War Chanters', the orcish equivalent of bards. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Dec 2019 19:35:25 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 12:11:11
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Love the words. They all look great. Might riff off them in my own writing if that's OK.
Since the Realms started with 1e, I have a hard time seeing orcs as wizards or sorcerers. Warlocks, however, make perfect sense to me.
Likewise, (in 3e terms), I'm increasingly thinking that the spirit shaman class is more appropriate for orcs (and goblinoids) than clerics or druids (or speciality priests (2e) / prestige classes (3e)).
So, I like the idea of orcish society that includes warriors / fighters / barbarians as well as scouts, warlocks, and spirit shamans, as the predominant classes. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 12:15:32
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One more thing: Increasingly convinced that "krypt" means "lair/home/cave/stronghold" in orcish, at least among the orcs of the Sword Mountains.
I also think there should be at least two forms of orcish (Mountain / Gray), that are pretty unrelated (e.g. Norse and Finnish). I also think that orcs would be far more likely to have strongly differentiated dialects among regions. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 16:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Love the words. They all look great. Might riff off them in my own writing if that's OK.
Since the Realms started with 1e, I have a hard time seeing orcs as wizards or sorcerers. Warlocks, however, make perfect sense to me.
Likewise, (in 3e terms), I'm increasingly thinking that the spirit shaman class is more appropriate for orcs (and goblinoids) than clerics or druids (or speciality priests (2e) / prestige classes (3e)).
So, I like the idea of orcish society that includes warriors / fighters / barbarians as well as scouts, warlocks, and spirit shamans, as the predominant classes.
I can see orcs as sorcerers, since they don't have to study to learn spells.
I learned D&D with 2E, so I still tend to think in 2E terms -- but I was happy to see the end of the racial class restrictions, especially in regards to multi-classing. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 18:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Love the words. They all look great. Might riff off them in my own writing if that's OK.
That would be great!
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Since the Realms started with 1e, I have a hard time seeing orcs as wizards or sorcerers. Warlocks, however, make perfect sense to me.
Given how orcs can breed with everything and sorcerer ability can be inborn, orcish sorcerers are pretty much a given. They might not be common, but even if pure-blooded orcs are never born with sorcerous gifts, it's inevitable that orcs which have admixtures of other heritage will sometimes be born with such abilities.
The way I imagine orcish society, however, is that orcs don't differentiate much between different arcane traditions. Sorcery or zardtan covers everything from inborn gifts through hedge magic or learned wizardry. It is also generally a term with negative connotations, with orcs usually hating and fearing all sorcery (which, however, sometimes allows a ruthless orc who can use magic to rise to power in a tribe).
The magic-traditions that orcs do not consider negative are not considered to be zardtan. Magic which comes from the gods or spirits, such as that practised by clergy or shamans, is regarded as different from magic that sorcerers wield (and needs a separate word. Warlocks would fall under that category if the entity granting the powers were regarded as respectable in orcish society, but would be viewed as practising zadrj if the source of their powers was unsavoury or unknown to orcish society as a whole.
Runecasting and the magical tricks of warchanters are likewise distinguished from the zardj of sorcerers/wizards/hedge practisioners, even though human sages would consider it arcane magic. Both are major features of gray orc society (as major as any arcane tradition can be said to be among orcs, which is not very), as I see it, and both are viewed as gifts from the gods, even though, game mechanically, gods are not needed to access such abilities.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Likewise, (in 3e terms), I'm increasingly thinking that the spirit shaman class is more appropriate for orcs (and goblinoids) than clerics or druids (or speciality priests (2e) / prestige classes (3e)).
Well, the spirit shaman fits small tribes and primitive orcish society well, but in large tribes, especially huge hordes with a religious motivation, I see an organized clergy that traces its roots back to the Orcgate Wars.
The D&D 3e Cleric class and various warlike priestly prestige classes are perfect fits for warpriests of Ilneval, as well as being an alternative to shamans for the more robust and warlike servants of Gruumsh. The clergy of Bahgtru would be barbarian/clerics in D&D terms, perhaps with a special prestige class available which is no doubt already extant (perhaps needing a slight reskinning in terms of fluff).
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
So, I like the idea of orcish society that includes warriors / fighters / barbarians as well as scouts, warlocks, and spirit shamans, as the predominant classes.
That sounds like it would fit my view of mountain orc society well. Gray orcs are more religious and ritualistic, however, so I see warchanters (bards with a historical/religious tinge) and clerics/priests as the primary magic-using characters among them.
Runecasters would be greatly revered, but rare in the modern age, although legends of the times when the orcs walked with the gods would have them be common in those times. I don't know if there's a D&D class that I would use to represent them, as I use GURPS, which already has many magic-systems to pick and choose from, so runecasters are easy to do there. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Dec 2019 19:08:43 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2019 : 18:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
One more thing: Increasingly convinced that "krypt" means "lair/home/cave/stronghold" in orcish, at least among the orcs of the Sword Mountains.
Agreed.
And because it's a cool word, I'd use it more widely as well.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I also think there should be at least two forms of orcish (Mountain / Gray), that are pretty unrelated (e.g. Norse and Finnish). I also think that orcs would be far more likely to have strongly differentiated dialects among regions.
That could go both ways. It would be easy to say that as orcish shamans speak to the spirits and gods regardless of distance, a common orcish language based on the speech of the avatars of the gods (who walked among the gray orcs in the time of the Orcgate Wars) exists and major deviations from it are uncommon.
Plenty of dialects, but all one language, in other words.
There is also the fact that the orcs of Thar and, most likely, the orcs that many PCs will know, as the orcs living near the Dalelands and Cormyr (in the Stonelands and Goblin Marches), descend from both gray and mountain orcs.
Given the much more organized and 'civilized' nature of gray orcs when they arrived on Toril, it's plausible that gray orcs became tribal elites among mountain orcs in any area reachable by their warbands in the centuries and millennia after the Orcgate Wars.
Even the former kingdom of the gray orcs, in Vastar, was established in lands where orcs had been for thousands of years, which means that the arriving gray orcs would have displaced or absorbed mountain orcs already living there.
As there is no genocidal war noted between orcish subraces, the most plausible scenario is that pure-blooded gray orcs or mountain orcs are rare and exist only in very remote or inaccessible areas (which, however, might include the Spine of the World), with most orcs in Faerun being mixed to various degree and cultural factors more than anything else determining which subrace they are counted as. |
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Orcish Words
