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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 11:18:31
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According to the Grand History of the Realms, a group of elves from Evereska stumbled upon the tomb of Hssthak, a sarrukh mummy. They recognized the threat so they turned themselves ino mummies in order to guard the tomb.
Anyone know where the tomb is hidden?
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Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 12:33:37
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Hsssthak comes from the old REF5 "Lords Of Darkness" Game Accessory by Ed.
It was a bunch of little adventures, just like the Book of Lairs series, with the twist that 1) everything was set in FR and 2) all the monsters were undead: Skeletons, Ghouls and Ghasts, Wights, Shadows, Mummies, Vampires, Ghosts, Spectres & Lich.
According to the setup for the adventure:
The ideal location for this module is the Anauroch Desert where it borders that part of Faerun known as The Savage Frontier (FR5).
After explaining the creator races (perhaps for the first time ever), it goes on: The greater mummy Hsssthak of the ancient reptilian creator race guards one such legacy - a pair of spells left to their lizard man descendants, spells which could allow that race to regain much of its lost power and prestige.
Further, elves came upon the tomb at some point and mummified themselves to guard over the contents. Obviously I would change these to Baelnorn nowadays.
He guards 2 Nether Scrolls, which each had a spell: Awaken Intelligence (gives animals intelligence) and Alter Beast (modify monsters) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 12:38:36
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| In my mind, this tomb is part of Oreme. Were he re-written today "the greater mummy Hsssthak" would be among the Sarrukh liches of Oreme. The only other interpretation is he somehow stole 2 of the Nether Scrolls from them before his people mummified him - not likely in my mind. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 17:57:08
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| Hmmm, just realizing... so awaken intelligence WAS supposed to be this major secret back in 1e... then along comes 3.5e and you could awaken damn near anything (constructs, plants, animals, etc..). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 18:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, just realizing... so awaken intelligence WAS supposed to be this major secret back in 1e... then along comes 3.5e and you could awaken damn near anything (constructs, plants, animals, etc..).
The word got out, obviously. 
Though, seriously, that's another one of the issues with the many edition changes. Something tough or impossible in one edition is common the next -- and vice versa. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 02:22:04
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| Yeah - pretty much everything was secret back then. You heard of Netheril and that it was an ancient empire of magic but that's it. Anything older was no info at all... which in some ways was better. The broad strokes were there but the details were up to the DM. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 02:22:45
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First off, in order to maintain the flavor of the original adventure, I would still set it apart from Oreme, but leave is a part Oreme. At the very edge of the desert, where it meats the Graycloak Hills. In fact, looking at all the maps right now, perhpaps slightly north of that - lets say the Graycloak Hills 'trails off' along the edge of the Lonely Moor (so in both the hills, but on most maps, at the edge of the Lonely Moor where it meets the desert). Mike Schley's latest FR map (western heartlands) even shows some hills there. Since Oreme is due east of Waethercote Wood, that would put it in relatively close proximity to Oreme, and we could just say that the 'Citystate' that was once Oreme controlled a fairly large amount of land around it (and now we have my proposed location within 'greater Oreme', or 'the Oreme Environs', if you prefer). It also makes the presence of the elves make more sense, since Everska does claim the totality of the Graycloak Hills, and would definitely considered the smaller 'stragglers' ('lonely hills' ) along the edge of the Lonely Moor to fall within their jurisdiction (truthfully, elves decided whatever the hell they want falls 'under their jurisdiction', so this isn't even the barest 'reach' by me here).
Secondly, I would say those 'Netheril Scrolls' were actual small fragments of the scrolls - probably tiny corners ripped-off the actual scrolls. Lore-wise, the Nether Scrolls went on to become way too important an artifact to use them in this way (as intended), but in order to maintain the flavor of the adventure (written by Ed), I would allow that they 'came from there'. Torn-off pieces, and if you really hate that, then just say that this particular Oreme Lich (whom the others didn't like too much, obviously given how far off he was 'buried'. Can a lich have B.O.? Would another lich even be able to tell? ) copied two pages worth of data from the scrolls (so although they contain some of the information from the originals, they would not possess any of the inherent properties that an artifact would).
And I agree on the decision to turn the elven mummies into Baelnorn. 'Greater mummies' really just need to be liches at this point anyway (since we long-ago dropped the whole 'positive energy undead' thing). Even in the Ravenloft material, the two were lumped-together under the heading 'Ancient Dead'. The only real difference is one is created by a priestly order, and the other is a loner mage. Divine magic vs Arcane, but with the same end result. I'd even go a step further - using shadow magic you get a 'Greater Shade', or 'Ghost (Suel) Lich'. Basically a bodiless lich that inhabits a living body and slowly 'eats away' at it until it crumbles, and then gets a new one (so no need to deal with hags like in old-school lich lore). thus Greater Shades (the 'nobility' - basically Telemont and his kids) and Greater Mummies both fall-out as subcategories of lich (as do Baelnorn, Archliches, demiliches) Different names depending on methods used, and intent. We could even call the Suel liches 'Shadow Liches' if we wanted, because thats what they really are.
Man, did I go off on a tangent... liches have become a favorite topic of mine, I guess. Weird, because I never ever used one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2018 02:25:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 17:48:46
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| Hsssthak was introduced in the "Mummies" adventure in 1E/2E REF5: Lords of Darkness (TSR9240). Which also introduced the Nether Scrolls (initially described only as golden scrolls, clearly ancient and valuable but really just another magical curiosity in a treasure hoard, not yet written up as powerful artifacts from Netheril). Hsssthak's two Nether scrolls had the spells awaken intelligence and alter beast. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2018 : 11:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hsssthak was introduced in the "Mummies" adventure in 1E/2E REF5: Lords of Darkness (TSR9240). Which also introduced the Nether Scrolls (initially described only as golden scrolls, clearly ancient and valuable but really just another magical curiosity in a treasure hoard, not yet written up as powerful artifacts from Netheril). Hsssthak's two Nether scrolls had the spells awaken intelligence and alter beast.
Maybe we should be calling Ayrik "Quick-Draw" from now on :P |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 09:01:35
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It happened to be details I'd already summarized in my very first scroll at Candlekeep, lol. They say you never forget your first.
So not really a quick draw, just a perfect bullet already sitting in the chamber. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 01:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Secondly, I would say those 'Netheril Scrolls' were actual small fragments of the scrolls - probably tiny corners ripped-off the actual scrolls. Lore-wise, the Nether Scrolls went on to become way too important an artifact to use them in this way (as intended), but in order to maintain the flavor of the adventure (written by Ed), I would allow that they 'came from there'. Torn-off pieces, and if you really hate that, then just say that this particular Oreme Lich (whom the others didn't like too much, obviously given how far off he was 'buried'. Can a lich have B.O.? Would another lich even be able to tell? ) copied two pages worth of data from the scrolls (so although they contain some of the information from the originals, they would not possess any of the inherent properties that an artifact would).
The Netheril boxed set notes that in 1963 NY, thieves stole 24 of the remaining 50 Nether Scrolls, pounding them into gold nuggets. We know from other lore that the Nether Scrolls come back to their original form - and so some would over time have been recovered by the Netherese - but I would postulate that the scrolls found in Hssthak's lair were some of these.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 05:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Secondly, I would say those 'Netheril Scrolls' were actual small fragments of the scrolls - probably tiny corners ripped-off the actual scrolls. Lore-wise, the Nether Scrolls went on to become way too important an artifact to use them in this way (as intended), but in order to maintain the flavor of the adventure (written by Ed), I would allow that they 'came from there'. Torn-off pieces, and if you really hate that, then just say that this particular Oreme Lich (whom the others didn't like too much, obviously given how far off he was 'buried'. Can a lich have B.O.? Would another lich even be able to tell? ) copied two pages worth of data from the scrolls (so although they contain some of the information from the originals, they would not possess any of the inherent properties that an artifact would).
The Netheril boxed set notes that in 1963 NY, thieves stole 24 of the remaining 50 Nether Scrolls, pounding them into gold nuggets. We know from other lore that the Nether Scrolls come back to their original form - and so some would over time have been recovered by the Netherese - but I would postulate that the scrolls found in Hssthak's lair were some of these.
-- George Krashos
Not to disagree with you, friend Krash... But I don't think these scrolls could have been full-on Nether Scrolls.
If there were only 50 scrolls, and just glancing at one turned a gnome into an illusionist, then two of them should be far more powerful than the ones Hssthak was sitting on. He's sitting on two spells -- we've had descriptions of individual spellbooks that had more than just two unique spells.
The text does describe the Nether Scrolls, and I can't argue against anyone who uses that fact to say that these are, in fact, two of the lost Scrolls.
But the Nether Scrolls have long been one of the major artifacts of the setting. They practically define all magic in the Realms, in 50 pages. Mages were ripping mountains apart and making them fly after reading the Scrolls.
Compared to that, just two unique spells is nothing. I'd expect more than that from half of just one page of the Scrolls.
Thus, I think Hsssthak's scrolls they might have been something akin to rough drafts. Not the actual Nether Scrolls; something lesser but akin to them... Maybe just enough to kickstart the lizard men onto a path where they could grow strong enough to claim and understand the real Scrolls. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 10:53:59
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As pointed out in the thread I linked to above, this was absolutely the first mention of Nether scrolls in the published Realms. They became the artifacts we know them to be only in later products.
But at the time of Hsssthak's 1E/2E REF5 adventure, they were just two fancy golden sheets (out of a set of 100) which each bore a unique and potent new spell.
I think it's just as valid to have these be two actual bona-fide Nether scrolls as it would be to have them be two fancy golden scrolls which were copied from them. And if you're going to copy a spell off a Nether scroll then scribing it onto a sheet of finely hammered gold seems quite natural, especially since the "usual" parchment or paper or vellum may have simply been unavailable. Plus, golden sheets are also waterproof, swamp-proof, desert-resistant, and quite worthy of burying in the hands of a mummified monarch.
I could understand Hsssthak and the lizardmen revering these two particular spells (more than the actual scrolls they were written upon) if they believed them to be related to the creation of their people. And, being mere lizardmen instead of mighty elves or whatnot, they didn't necessarily ever possess the "original" Nether scrolls anyhow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Jan 2018 10:59:57 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 12:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not to disagree with you, friend Krash... But I don't think these scrolls could have been full-on Nether Scrolls.
It's important that people disagree with me! And I agree with you, as you can see below.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If there were only 50 scrolls, and just glancing at one turned a gnome into an illusionist, then two of them should be far more powerful than the ones Hssthak was sitting on. He's sitting on two spells -- we've had descriptions of individual spellbooks that had more than just two unique spells.
The text does describe the Nether Scrolls, and I can't argue against anyone who uses that fact to say that these are, in fact, two of the lost Scrolls.
I wasn't clear in my original post. Following on from what Markustay said about them being fragments, I don't think the two scrolls with Hssthak are two, whole Nether scrolls. They are two parts of different Nether scrolls that have "done their best" to reform into their original state but are missing the rest of the "bits" to come together as whole scrolls again.
I think this a neat way of introducing the wonder of the Nether Scrolls into a campaign without having to deal with the crazy, major artifact effects associated with a complete scroll/set. In essence, some part of the set that remained with the Netherese remains in a fragmented state. If all the bits are brought together they will slowly coalesce into a complete whole scroll or set of scrolls, but until then the bits have over time formed "mini-scrolls" (aping their correct form) with greatly reduced powers or, as in the case of Hssthak's bits, showcasing particular spells.
If we want to get technical, the two bits in the tomb are from different scrolls of the 10 scrolls making up the Arcaenus Fundare sub-set.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 13:08:55
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I like the idea of it being portions of "reforming" scrolls, and that they are having problems reforming. Also, I would throw in to actually make these actually only work like scrolls that you cast from. No copying the spells. Or maybe you use it the once and the spell "reforms" on the page X weeks/months later. I say it this way, because while I was saying that awakening spells were introduced later.... I'm rereading this from 1st edition, and it just returns me back to how simple things were back then (but also how broken). Still, you need simple at first to then improve upon later. For instance, awaken intelligence gives an additional 2d6 intelligence to even already sentient beings.... so in theory a wizard with say 16 intelligence at that time could easily hit the MAX of 25 and be more intelligent than gods with this scroll. I say that because there is no definition for "creature". Alter beast is similarly interesting. I'd say updating this to 5e, the awaken intelligence might be able to work as a manual of clear thought on already sentient beings, with the use clearing the scroll and it reforming.... and as an alternative, it could awaken intelligence in animals, plants, undead, constructs, and maybe even in select types items (i.e. make a gem intelligent, make a magic item intelligent, make a spellbook intelligent, etc...)
Here's what the 1e rules were.... amazing how short things were back then.
Awaken Intelligence: Level: 4; Range: touch; Duration: permanent; Area of effect: 1 creature; Components: V,S,M; Casting time: 4 segments; Saving throw: none.
Gives sentience to a non-sentient creature (roll 3d6 to select Intelligence score), or in already sentient creatures, improves Intelligence by 2d6 points. Requires a system shock roll to survive its effects. Awakened Intelligence may not be passed on to offspring unless #147;locked#148; into the creature#146;s genetic makeup by the alter beast spell. The material components are a dried fish and a piece of brain coral.
Alter Beast: Level: 8; Range: touch; Duration: permanent; Area of effect: 1 creature; Components: V,S,M; Casting time: 1 turn; Saving throw: none.
Allows the caster to modify a selected part of a living creature#146;s physical form. This could be changing paws into hands, giving a quadruped an upright, bipedal stance, increasing brain capacity, and so on. Changes made by this spell affect the creature#146;s genetic makeup and are permanent. The effects can be passed on to offspring if the creature mates with a similarly altered creature of its own original species. Only a limited or full wish will reverse the spell#146;s effects. Each use of this spell requires a system shock survival roll. The material component is two strands of heavy gold wire twisted together in a double helix. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 13:28:30
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Ok - MAJOR rewrite on the nether scrolls to follow_
It seems to me that the simplest explanation is that there are more than two sets of "Golden Skins". All statements about the two sets note that two sets were discovered by the Netherese. Serpent kingdoms never claims only two sets were ever made. Therefore his means that there could be other Nether scrolls that were never recovered by the Netherese. Notable among these would be the books the nether scrolls were based off of (which are canon), which I have never seen any mention of besides their original existence. Pages of these are what Hssthak guards.
Now, if I were a mighty sarrukh emperor I would want a copy for my empire. There were 3 empires: Okoth, Mhairshaulk, and Isstosseffiffil. This to me suggests there should be at least 4 sets - the original book-version, and at least 1 set per empire. However, there were also 2 weaker "kingdoms": Ss'thar'tiss'ssun (Forest Of Wyrms), and Ilimar (Guthmere Forest). What if they all had kept a copy.
Then, 1 by one as these kingdoms and empires fell, the scrolls were lost and then found by those who came later in their region.
I think the Okothian scrolls were obviously discovered by and lead to the magic of the Imaskari - current whereabouts unknown but possibly hidden away in Deep Imaskar.
I think the liches of Oreme still have the original Isstosseffiffil scrolls, their combined might shielding them from detection of the phaerimm AND the Netherese (I know WHAT????) :P.
That leaves Mhairshaulk, which are still under the control of the serpent folk, the source of their ability to retain power in the south. Probably some ancient sarruhk/snake demigod holds them at the heart of those realms and continually churns out creations and yaun-ti and no one ever discovered them for that reason.
Now, the most important scrolls - Faerun-wise - were written by the Ba'etith AFTER the fall of the big empires. These scrolls were those of the scrolls of Ss'thar'tiss'ssun, and Ilimar, who sought to reclaim the glory of their people's past. These scrolls are recovered by the Dark Elves before the Crown Wars. Remember all the creature alteration they were doing? That sounds VERY Nether Scrolls to me. So part of the Crown Wars then becomes a fight over this source of dark magic. This also goes a long way to explain the back and forth of the wars. They are fighting for something tangible. Sooner or later they are captured and taken north to Aryvandaar and ultimately used by THEM TOO (I know, as if the taint of devils was not enough). Then at last the scrolls were buried beneath the Grandfather Tree for safe-keeping after the overthrow of the Vyshaan empire. These are THE Nether Scrolls the two sets discovered by the Netherese and behind their magic. And the source of ALL Nether scroll history and lore from that point on.
BOOM. Problem both solved AND expanded for future generations. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:53:10
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| I do like the idea of the dark elves and gold elves using the scrolls as well. I'd actually give the batrachi who were near Mhairshaulk and Okoth having discovered some of the scrolls as well. Perhaps the aearee as well. However, that being said, these scrolls were created by the ba'etith studying other magic using cultures, so maybe not. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do like the idea of the dark elves and gold elves using the scrolls as well. I'd actually give the batrachi who were near Mhairshaulk and Okoth having discovered some of the scrolls as well. Perhaps the aearee as well. However, that being said, these scrolls were created by the ba'etith studying other magic using cultures, so maybe not.
I'd say remember that the scrolls we know about are just the 2 sets. So the stated history of the Ba'etith only applies to those two sets. It is a semantic argument to be sure, but one that holds up :) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:01:31
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| It would also be interesting if the original, earlier Golden Skins of the Empires each differed in some way that reflects the differences in their natures. Then the later Nether scrolls had elements of all three. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 16:03:15
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There have been some compelling arguments made for there being three sets of Nether Scrolls, though all the canon material points at two.
I've suggest that two could have been the goal, even though three races worked on them -- one master copy for everyone, and a duplicate in case something happens with the master.
That said, aside from pointing out that it's not canon, I can't argue against there being a third set.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 16:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not to disagree with you, friend Krash... But I don't think these scrolls could have been full-on Nether Scrolls.
It's important that people disagree with me! And I agree with you, as you can see below.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If there were only 50 scrolls, and just glancing at one turned a gnome into an illusionist, then two of them should be far more powerful than the ones Hssthak was sitting on. He's sitting on two spells -- we've had descriptions of individual spellbooks that had more than just two unique spells.
The text does describe the Nether Scrolls, and I can't argue against anyone who uses that fact to say that these are, in fact, two of the lost Scrolls.
I wasn't clear in my original post. Following on from what Markustay said about them being fragments, I don't think the two scrolls with Hssthak are two, whole Nether scrolls. They are two parts of different Nether scrolls that have "done their best" to reform into their original state but are missing the rest of the "bits" to come together as whole scrolls again.
I think this a neat way of introducing the wonder of the Nether Scrolls into a campaign without having to deal with the crazy, major artifact effects associated with a complete scroll/set. In essence, some part of the set that remained with the Netherese remains in a fragmented state. If all the bits are brought together they will slowly coalesce into a complete whole scroll or set of scrolls, but until then the bits have over time formed "mini-scrolls" (aping their correct form) with greatly reduced powers or, as in the case of Hssthak's bits, showcasing particular spells.
If we want to get technical, the two bits in the tomb are from different scrolls of the 10 scrolls making up the Arcaenus Fundare sub-set.
-- George Krashos
Very good workaround, Krash, and a much more elegant solution than mine. |
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-6000 DR: Hssthak a Sarrukh Mummy.
